NationStates Jolt Archive

Let's sum up the various threads about Arafat, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians. Do you believe Israel's statehood should be canceled and all of its land given to Palestinians? I don't care about whether you think it will happen. I want to know whether you think it should happen. ~ Michael.

No.

Isreali citizens have a right to live in peace and security, as to the Palestinians.

It is the extreme elements on both sides who have perpetuated this whole literally bloody mess, and it's the innocents on both sides who suffer.

In a perfect world Israel would never have been given statehood.
In an almost perfect world, Israel would be dissolved as a state.

Our world, unfortunately is nowhere near perfect.

We've got a nice little alternating thing going on there :)

What would be simpler is taking otherwise useless desert sand, drop it in the Mediterranean, create a huge artificial island, and give the land to one of the parties or divide it.

True, the formation of Israel was a mistake, but dissolving it now would be no better a move. A joint-rule government (not including any of the nationalist psychos who're in control of Israel and Palestine now) would be my ideal outcome.

Ohh, another one of those threads. Its becoming tiresome. And boring :roll:

Whoever decides to "dissolve" Israel, will have to try his chances at his own risk. Quite an unhealthy enterprise.

no keep as many jews as possible in the middle east, that way zog has some territorial existance to defend

True, the formation of Israel was a mistake, but dissolving it now would be no better a move.

Exactly. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Regardless of whether you agree with Israel being founded in the first place, simply kicking them out or letting the Palestinians rule the whole area is not the way to go.

Israel should be disolved.

A new nation, that holds all Palestinian and Israeli lands should be formed.

This nation would have a secular constitution and be divided into provinces with a decentralized national government to allow both ethnic groups to have enough say over themselves.

This would benefit both sides as the Federal Republic of Israel and Palestine would help put the Palestinians on an equal footing with the Israelis, the Israelis could spend less money on defense and use it for other programs, and then eventually a tax cut too.

Israel should be disolved.

A new nation, that holds all Palestinian and Israeli lands should be formed.

This nation would have a secular constitution and be divided into provinces with a decentralized national government to allow both ethnic groups to have enough say over themselves.

This would benefit both sides as the Federal Republic of Israel and Palestine would help put the Palestinians on an equal footing with the Israelis, the Israelis could spend less money on defense and use it for other programs, and then eventually a tax cut too.

I would agree with that.

Unfortunately as I said earlier, it probably won't happen at least in our lifetimes.

, the Israelis could spend less money on defense and use it for other programs, and then eventually a tax cut too.

Israel doesn't need to spend money on defence. The USA does all of that.

My general response to FREE PALESTINE slogans is "...when you buy one Israel for only $3 billion a year!"

(By the way, that's a third of all US foreign aid. I'm sure the famine-stricken would be glad that attack helicopters for Israel are a higher priority).

We should give Iraq to the Palestinians.

I read an article once that summed up the struggle for Israel from a religious Jew's point of view. A Jewish homeland could be set up anywhere in the world if the international community were concerned only to give Jews their own nation. But Israel is the land of continuing struggle because of the Temple Mount, where the Temple of Solomon was built. The Mount has the Dome of the Rock, the third holiest site of Islam, because it was from there Mohammed is said to have ascended into heaven. If the Jews gave up hope of rebuilding the Temple, then there would be no reason, other than that their ancestors lived on the land where they live now, for them to live there. Without a new Temple and the reinstitution of Judaism as it was practiced in the Old Testament, what would be the point? So keep in mind the ultimate struggle for the observant Jew is to expel Muslims from the Temple Mount so they can rebuild the Temple. This is why merely to say, "I wish Muslims and Jews could live in peace in Israel," is farcical and asking too much. ~ Michael.

We should give Iraq to the Palestinians.

Wonderful. And where would you put the Iraqis pray tell? The ordinary Iraqis who are just trying to get by without being blown up by crazed insurgents or coalition forces.

We should give Iraq to the Palestinians.That is a great idea. No doubt vast parts of the western deserts in Iraq have no one living them. If the United States built enough infrastructure and dug enough wells for water, then we could establish new cities for Palestinians. ~ Michael.

No...it should not be dissolved..we know from history that at least there is a historical basis for the Kingdom of Israel...there is no such entity as the Nation of Palestine..Arafat himsel is Egyptian...fully 2/3 of the Palestinians at one time were Jordanian..let the King of Jordan take them back.

Well since all the moderate ideas haven't worked I say create an Israel-Palestine or Palestine-Israel. And Israel is still trying to rebuild the Temple of Solomon?? how backwards are they????

We should give Iraq to the Palestinians.

Wonderful. And where would you put the Iraqis pray tell? The ordinary Iraqis who are just trying to get by without being blown up by crazed insurgents or coalition forces.

Here's where the beauty of the plan kicks in:

We put all the nice, good Palestinians with the nice, good Iraqis. They'll help each other, guided by the US and Coalition forces.

We put all the crazy suicidal jihadist Palestinians with the crazy and suicidal Iraqis. If they don't blow each other up ("Hey, get off our land!" "No, this is OUR land!"), then we'll just send in the marines!

No.

I hasten to add that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people or culture. They are simply Arabs that no Arab state wants. Someone mentioned Arafat. Arafat is an Egyptian.

There is already a Palestinian state. It is called Jordan.

There is already a Palestinian state. It is called Jordan.Israel could tell the king of Jordan that he has forty-eight hours to receive all the Palestinian refugees. Armored busses would transport the Gaza Strip residents to the West Bank. Then bulldozers, tanks, and troops could line up across the entire West Bank to push all the Palestinians out of their towns and villages and across the Jordan River. I have no doubt, of course, that the king of Jordan in his mercy will have troops on the other side, waiting for the fleeing Palestinian refugees ... so he can gun them down. The massacre, though, would be blamed on the Israelis. No country (except the U.S.) should be forced to receive refugees on such a short-term basis, the international community would argue. ~ Michael.

No...it should not be dissolved..we know from history that at least there is a historical basis for the Kingdom of Israel...there is no such entity as the Nation of Palestine..Arafat himsel is Egyptian...fully 2/3 of the Palestinians at one time were Jordanian..let the King of Jordan take them back
The Muslims have just as much basis for ownership of Jerusalem as the Jews; they were the people actually living there for the past thousand-odd years. I call that a historical basis if nothing else. If the Palestinians are a grubbed-up mixture from around the Arabic diaspora - so what? The Israelis are no different.

No...it should not be dissolved..we know from history that at least there is a historical basis for the Kingdom of Israel...there is no such entity as the Nation of Palestine..Arafat himsel is Egyptian...fully 2/3 of the Palestinians at one time were Jordanian..let the King of Jordan take them back
The Muslims have just as much basis for ownership of Jerusalem as the Jews; they were the people actually living there for the past thousand-odd years. I call that a historical basis if nothing else. If the Palestinians are a grubbed-up mixture from around the Arabic diaspora - so what? The Israelis are no different.

So what???..so what???...did you not even see what I wrote..at the very least there WAS a Kingdom of Israel..it existed...it's a fact...there never has been a Nation of Palestine.....and there have been Jews and Muslim Arabs living in that region even after the Jewish Diaspora..so it's not like there wasn't a continual Jewish prescence in the region...If anything the vast majority of "Palestinians" are in fact either Egyptian or Jordanian.. that is their nationality..that is where their citizenship lies.

Israel should be evacuated of all people and as many great art works as possible, and then bombed out of existence with nuclear weapons. i am so sick and tired of the selfish, childish, murderous squabbling those people are perpetuating, and since they show no signs of growing up on their own i think we should just save time and energy by resolving it once and for all.

no, the only reason Israel was not a nation was the muslims invaded and took over, Israel won their independance in the six-day war ( i think that was the war...) so they should be free (they should have been anyway).

so, to anyone who thinks Israel should be dissovled, should America also be dissolved ? American won their independance from Britan/the UK, just as Israel won their independance from the muslims.

Salishe. I thought that you were quite an informed debater, until now.
There was never a nation of native Americans, as they immigrated from Russia and South America. Do you believe that native Americans should be trampled on, and stripped of their rights, that helicopter gunship attacks should take place on reservations? (I believe that you are native American, yes? And the native cultures never declared themselves a nation, and so aren't a nation.)
Just because Israel was there first, 2000 years ago, doesn't mean it has some divine right to displace a nation that has been there in the mean time.
Soviet Haaregrad has the right idea (I think it's him anyway.)

Salishe. I thought that you were quite an informed debater, until now.
There was never a nation of native Americans, as they immigrated from Russia and South America. Do you believe that native Americans should be trampled on, and stripped of their rights, that helicopter gunship attacks should take place on reservations? (I believe that you are native American, yes? And the native cultures never declared themselves a nation, and so aren't a nation.)
Just because Israel was there first, 2000 years ago, doesn't mean it has some divine right to displace a nation that has been there in the mean time.
Soviet Haaregrad has the right idea (I think it's him anyway.)

I am the informed debater..apparently you've been absorbing revisionist history. No..there was no nation of Native Americans..there were over 500..but that is apples and oranges to the situation in the middle east.

There had been no NATION of Palestine..even the Arabs of the region didn't identify themselves as Palestinians...they were either Egyptian, Jordanian, or Syrian....the current nation of Israel never displaced another nation...they initially accepted the borders given to them by the UN in 1948 (I'll give you a tidbit of info, not one single solitary Arab nation voted for the partition)..it was the Arabs who refused to accept the more then equitable arrangement..one day after Israel declared it's independence..no less then 4 armies attacked Israel....The Arabs told those Arabs who would assume the identity of Palestinian to leave..that they would get all the land once they threw out the Jews..well...that didn't happen...the Arabs got their head handed to them on a platter.

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Check this link Salishe, tell me if it changes your mind any.

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

Israel has as much right to continue to exist as a nation as anybody else.

No.

I hasten to add that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people or culture. They are simply Arabs that no Arab state wants. Someone mentioned Arafat. Arafat is an Egyptian.

There is already a Palestinian state. It is called Jordan.

It's funny how this laughably backward notion still pervades today. It's probably more likely that this guy is one of those interested in propagating it than one of those who has been tricked into believing it.

It's also pretty funny to say that "There is no Palestinian people or culture," yet to insist upon an Israeli "people," who consist of anyone who is willing to claim that he is Jewish. Especially considering the post-WWII foundations of israel in those scattered, diverse European small communities who were united only by religion and not ethnicity.

Funniest of all is that when an American travels to Israel, he is told "Welcome." When a Jewish American of who-knows-what ancestry travels to Israel, he is told "Welcome back." When a Palestinian who still holds the keys to his house inside "Israel" tries to travel to Israel, he is turned back to his refugee camp and told that he does not exist. There is no such thing as a Palestinian!

No.

I hasten to add that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people or culture. They are simply Arabs that no Arab state wants. Someone mentioned Arafat. Arafat is an Egyptian.

There is already a Palestinian state. It is called Jordan.

It's funny how this laughably backward notion still pervades today. It's probably more likely that this guy is one of those interested in propagating it than one of those who has been tricked into believing it.

It's also pretty funny to say that "There is no Palestinian people or culture," yet to insist upon an Israeli "people," who consist of anyone who is willing to claim that he is Jewish. Especially considering the post-WWII foundations of israel in those scattered, diverse European small communities who were united only by religion and not ethnicity.

Funniest of all is that when an American travels to Israel, he is told "Welcome." When a Jewish American of who-knows-what ancestry travels to Israel, he is told "Welcome back." When a Palestinian who still holds the keys to his house inside "Israel" tries to travel to Israel, he is turned back to his refugee camp and told that he does not exist. There is no such thing as a Palestinian!

How is this notion funny?...They ARE Jordanian or Egyptian..Arafat himself was born a naturalized Egyptian citizen....It's not the Israeli's fault that the Palestinians refused to accept partition...the Israelis in 1948 were more then perfectly willing to let them have their own nation on land appropriated for that purpose.

Check this link Salishe, tell me if it changes your mind any.

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

Oh I read it all right..of course it's perceptions are biased "Jews for Justice"..hardly what I'd call a proper perspective on the whole issue. But it does confirm for me...there never has been..a Nation of Palestine at times the region was governed from Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan.

The question of whether a Palestinian state has ever existed in the past should be utterly irrelevant to the discussion. The Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there--the issue is how to solve the problem in a way that best avoids violence, hardship, and misery. These specious "historical" claims do nothing but muddy the debate. Also, I can't believe that we're still getting this "the Palestinian state is Jordan" crap. Even Ariel Sharon does not espouse this position anymore.

The question of whether a Palestinian state has ever existed in the past should be utterly irrelevant to the discussion. The Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there--the issue is how to solve the problem in a way that best avoids violence, hardship, and misery. These specious "historical" claims do nothing but muddy the debate. Also, I can't believe that we're still getting this "the Palestinian state is Jordan" crap. Even Ariel Sharon does not espouse this position anymore.

Exactly- the history is irrelevant since we could spend all day slinging counterclaims at each other. The question that needs to be addressed is why Israel is allowed to run an apartheid-esque state propped up by US backing?

Much more recently than there was a Nation of Israel, there was a kingdom called Wessex ruled by the Saxons. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a historical basis so I'm quite legitimate in turfing everybody of Norman, Viking, or non-Caucasian descent out of southwest England and declaring it sovereign territory.

And yes, at the time of the creation of Israel the claim to there being people of Israeli nationality was every bit as bogus as Palestinians today. Their claim was a religious claim - and there's no way you can say that that's more valid than the religious claim of the Muslims or the Christians.

The Rastafarians claim, with some strength, that their religious and racial homeland is Ethiopia. Should we give it to them?

The question of whether a Palestinian state has ever existed in the past should be utterly irrelevant to the discussion. The Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there--the issue is how to solve the problem in a way that best avoids violence, hardship, and misery. These specious "historical" claims do nothing but muddy the debate. Also, I can't believe that we're still getting this "the Palestinian state is Jordan" crap. Even Ariel Sharon does not espouse this position anymore.

Exactly- the history is irrelevant since we could spend all day slinging counterclaims at each other. The question that needs to be addressed is why Israel is allowed to run an apartheid-esque state propped up by US backing?Largely, because when they interact with Palestinians the Palestinians spontaneously explode. Or is it that the Palestinians blow themselves up in hopes of killing Isrealis? Yes, I think that's it. This is not racism or aparthied, it's self-preservation.

Good debate here people :roll:

Look in to how many Jewish people lived in the land that is now Israel in the first half of this century. Hint - there were rather a lot.

Send the Palestinians to Jordan? Fine. Then we'll come over to where you live and tell you that you can't live there anymore and there are plenty of places that you can live so see ya. Imagine that the place you live is partially taken from you, by force, and then you are told that you never had the right to live there in the first place.

Religious sites in Israel are claimed by the three major religions. It is the homeland of three major religions. People who follow all of those religions want to live there.

Fundamentalist Christians support Israel because according to Revelation the return of the Jewish people to their lands is necessary for the 2nd coming. Uneasy alliance huh? People who want the world to end so their saviour can return and people that don't believe he was the saviour.

Some Jews may want to eliminate all Palestinians, but have you ever looked in to groups like Hamas? They want the complete destruction of Israel - should we even negotiate with terrorists especially ones with aims like that.

Over 30% of the land taken to form Israel was taken from Palestinian Churches. That's right, Christian churches. This isn't necessarily about Islam vs. Judaism or as some increasingly want to see it Right (us) vs. Wrong (Islam). Palestinian christians made up nearly 20% of the population in 1900 or so, they now make up 2%, some think they will be gone in a generation.

I'm arguing both sides here - why? Because I can see both sides, and most importantly - it isn't simple, there is no simple answer, moving the Palestinians out is dispossessing them. Eliminating Israel is quite simply wrong.

No easy answers.

In this thread I am going to talk about scat.