NationStates Jolt Archive

I know many people who think that the only way to get to heaven is via Christ...

I am a Christian who does NOT belive this for a second. Hell is described as the worst punishment possible, i think it takes a lot more than not believing in God or Jesus to go to Hell...

Im no theological scholar, but I am sure the God I worship is kind and loving and cares about everyone.

Many people say that "everyone has a chance to come to Jesus, they didn't and now they go to Hell." I dont think Jewish or Muslim or etc. people will convert that easily, most have grown up with that faith and believe it to be true. I also believe athiests have a shot a heaven, as long as they are decent people.

Write what you think, just dont flame anyone's beliefs please...

NOT beliving in the Good Lord God or Christ will send you to hell.
Though I in my opinion, those who believe in Satan will go to the underworld. They belive that that is the afterlife and that it there they will go when they pass away.

Woudn't have thought so, "In my father's house are many rooms". I think how we get along in the afterlife is dependent on our behaviour on earth, not whether we believe a particular doctrine.

If anyone's going to hell, it's not for eternity.

Those who have not found Christ and repented of their sins will go to a state of hell for at least 1000 years, where they pay for their sins temselves, instead of allowing Christ to pay for them.

Either way, we all wind up resurrected, and sorted into kingdoms and degrees of glory depending on our worthiness.

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to pass through the gates of heaven. So Bush is Fcuked! :wink:

There are no degrees of heaven, or degrees of hell. All people who except christ go to the same heaven, all people who reject christ go to the same hell. Christ's atonement leveled the playing field, we are all equal in God's sight. If two people are christian, and one sins more then the other, they are still going to the same heaven.

Any religion based on guilt, fear and threats should be suppressed immediately.

--- Post Edited By Nationstates Moderator---

This is a warning, you may argue your point, but not in this fashion. Don't do it again.

Stephanie
Game Moderator

Yes, probably. But hell for us will be full of Christians preaching at us, playing had music, and wearing socks with sandals .... aaargh.

I find the concept of an all loving God completely incompatible with eternal suffering which serves no purpose other than to reciprocate evil with evil. Even though I'm far from decided on the whole God issue, I would never believe in hell either way since the whole notion of such a place is born of hate rather than love.

--- Post Edited By Nationstates Moderator---

This is a warning, you may argue your point, but not in this fashion. Don't do it again.

Stephanie
Game Moderator

What the hell? was it the fcuk??

I think it had something to do with felatio and minors, but I could be wrong.

let's hope we're going to hell, otherwise we'll be stuck in the big cloud city with harp-playing Christians driving us out of our minds!

Eh, hell is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people might like going to hell.

Eh, hell is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people might like going to hell.

If Heaven's full of people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, you can sign me up for Hell.

Hell is reserved for the immoral and Rosie O'Donnell. Nothing more to say. :wink:

hmm.. i can't really say anything about this question besides the fact that there is no actuall proof there is a god or heaven or hell.. so i could really care less.. as you can tell i don't fully believe in god.

Hell is reserved for the immoral and Rosie O'Donneld (spelling?) Nothing more to say. :wink:

I'm sure Rosie O'Donnell is glad her great grandparents dropped that final D off the end of her name. However, there's some poor midwestern Catholic right now who's just been condemned to everlasting hellfire. Kinda makes you think.

Anyone ever seen Brazil?

We're sick and tired of your ism-schism game.

Yes there is a hell. The rich become poor, the arrogant ones get a daily reminder of just how weak and foolish they really are. Basically all the things that you love, you are forced to be without. They are marked differently depending on what they did while they were alive. And there is no such place as heaven. You’re all going to the same realm when you die. Not everyone is tortured regularly, only when they’re marked in certain ways, and each demon has their own preference on who they’ll mess around with.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

No.
In the bibile it states that you will only go to hell if you worship false idols and other Gods, henceforth other religions will go to heaven as they believe in their God, or though not necessarily our Chistian God.

If people believe that they will go to hell when they die though, I think they will.

Yes there is a hell. The rich become poor, the arrogant ones get a daily reminder of just how weak and foolish they really are. Basically all the things that you love, you are forced to be without. They are marked differently depending on what they did while they were alive. And there is no such place as heaven. You’re all going to the same realm when you die. Not everyone is tortured regularly, only when they’re marked in certain ways, and each demon has their own preference on who they’ll mess around with.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

Wow, what a sick way of veiwing man.

Wow, what a sick way of veiwing man.
You’re just jealous that you’re not a demon.
:P
And what exactly makes it sick?
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

Wow, what a sick way of veiwing man.
You’re just jealous that you’re not a demon.
:P
And what exactly makes it sick?
__________________________________________________
Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

Damn, demons. Always showing me up. Jelousy taking me over. :wink:

The obvious never dawns on people of "faith" that they just might be wrong.. I suppose that's what faith is, it's blind.. but maybe, just maybe there is no heaven and there is no hell.. perhaps it's more of a state of mind that we bring upon ourselves in our every day lives. Perhaps when you die, you're worm food, however have no fear... it's not like you'll be any the wiser. It's the circle of life.

If anyone's going to hell, it's not for eternity.

Those who have not found Christ and repented of their sins will go to a state of hell for at least 1000 years, where they pay for their sins temselves, instead of allowing Christ to pay for them.

Either way, we all wind up resurrected, and sorted into kingdoms and degrees of glory depending on our worthiness.

I myself have been somewhat critical towards christianity since I was elevan, so I'll post some of my questions and opinions:

How does a loving god condemn his own offspring to sufering, especially considering that he IS so merciful and all that?

I'm worried about that whole "those whom have not found Christ" thing: is it necessarily someones fault if he/she has never even heard of Jesus, was it sinful for that person to be born in a wrong place or at a wrong time?
If finding Jesus means figuring out his doctrine (by this I mean solidarity), may it be from any source, you wouldn't have to be a christian to get to heaven.

"There are no degrees of heaven, or degrees of hell. All people who except christ go to the same heaven, all people who reject christ go to the same hell. Christ's atonement leveled the playing field, we are all equal in God's sight. If two people are christian, and one sins more then the other, they are still going to the same heaven"

Somehow I have understood the tale that Jesus died to pay for the sins of MANKIND, not just christians, who didn't really excist in those days, or atleast they weren't known as christians.

By the way, have any of you ever read the Bible? I won't go ahead and claim that I have, though some parts I have. In the old testament, God seems rather vengeful and a real menace, just think about the slaughter of Egyptian children. On a second note, my grandfather atleast claims (beyond resounable doubt, he is a very christian person) that he has read the whole "book of the books", and according to him Hell isn't even mentioned in the Bible. He says that in the Bible the thing is put this way: good people are resurrected on Judgement day and they will have the joy of living in the kingdom of God (or something like that, might have been that Heaven was mentioned), and bad people REMAIN IN THEIR GRAVE in oblivion, they no longer excist.
So by this I determine that Hell has always been, since the Dark Age, an intimation method of the Church to get people do their bidding. The Catholic Church as Gods kingdom on earth doesn't seem so divine if you consider this, and about all the wars that it has sponsored though I believe that "thou shall not kill" is in the ten commandments.

Though there appears to be evidence that Jesus has once lived, much of christianity is based upon an different cult altogether. I suppose you all know that christianity was pretty popular in some time of the Roman Empire, but far from all Romans were christians. When one of the emperors, can't recall his name right now, declared christianity as the official religion of Rome, some adjustments had to be made.
Around 250 B.C. the Meithra (hence my nation's name) cult was born. Meithra, then son of Sun, is practiacally Jesus; their miracles are pretty much the same, turning water into wine and all that. In the end of Meithra's story, he drove to the sun in a chariot, hence Jesus' resurrection.
Apparently this cult was DA Thing in the time that christianity became the official religion in rome. Peopple were far more satisfied having just to replace the name of their god, rather than to replace the god altogether.
In case you've ever wondered, Christmas is the birthday of Sun.

I guess there are atleast some that don't belive this stuff, but check it out! Internet is right there in front of you, you all have a Bible at home, and probaply even decent library's near you.

As Robert Anton Wilson put it: Think for your self, schmuck! ;)

Damn, demons. Always showing me up. Jelousy taking me over. :wink:
Hehehe
*Writes something in Japaica’s permanent record*
:twisted:
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

In my opinion, hell is a place like earth; you may not enter The Eternal Kingdom, and that is damnation enough in it's self. So you have to go on being reborn into yet another "hell" for all eternity...
That is, of course, if I believed in the whole notion of heaven or earth. :)

Damn, demons. Always showing me up. Jelousy taking me over. :wink:
Hehehe
*Writes something in Japaica’s permanent record*
:twisted:
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

permenant meaning school or permenant meaning beyond life. If you mean beyond life, then I cringe in fear.

I voted yes since there was no maybe.

I believe that people who believe in the universality of a God (not necessarily the one quoted in the Bible), and live a good existence of loving their fellow man would be looked upon favourably by the God of my understanding.

I also believe that many people who say they are Christian but do not abide by God's will are going to Hell. Some Christians act like tyrants away from the church and I think they are in for a rude awakening on judgement day.

Being a Christian and a human being, I know that I am not perfect and my consciousness reminds me to ask Him for forgiveness when I mess up and I pray for the will to change.

Right now, there is a lot of anger, hate, and violence in this world, and on these discussion boards. I try to balance that in my daily life by trying to be the best person I can be, with my family and friends. God's words tell me that I have to love my neighbour, even though I may dislike what they do or say.

I tried so long to do it my way and it was a painful experience. Doing it God's way gives me an inner peace and makes my life so much better today.

Will I go to heaven? Only God knows the answer to that. However, I feel that a have a better chance of going to heaven as long as I know that God is in control.

May your God go with you this day. :lol:

What are all you fools talking about?
I thought this was hell.

The obvious never dawns on people of "faith" that they just might be wrong.. I suppose that's what faith is, it's blind.. but maybe, just maybe there is no heaven and there is no hell.. perhaps it's more of a state of mind that we bring upon ourselves in our every day lives. Perhaps when you die, you're worm food, however have no fear... it's not like you'll be any the wiser. It's the circle of life.

That's not completely fair, Stephi. I think I might be wrong all the time and no lots of other theists who question both their faith and their whole belief system. Blanket generaliztions don't make friends. :D

permenant meaning school or permenant meaning beyond life. If you mean beyond life, then I cringe in fear.
The latter, but try not to fear too much. Demons love to prey on the fearful.

Edit: Oh which reminds me, I've got an appointment to keep :twisted:
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

The obvious never dawns on people of "faith" that they just might be wrong.. I suppose that's what faith is, it's blind.. but maybe, just maybe there is no heaven and there is no hell.. perhaps it's more of a state of mind that we bring upon ourselves in our every day lives. Perhaps when you die, you're worm food, however have no fear... it's not like you'll be any the wiser. It's the circle of life.

That's not completely fair, Stephi. I think I might be wrong all the time and no lots of other theists who question both their faith and their whole belief system. Blanket generaliztions don't make friends. :D

That's fair.. and I suppose many theists do question their faith.. I suppose it's really only the die hards that don't. I am willing to admit it was sort of a blanket statement..

As for friends, I'm a Game Moderator..lol I don't have any friends..lol :P

hw can people be so stupid, it says specifcally in the bible that the only way to eternal life is "through christ our lord" i dont think you can get more obvious than that

hw can people be so stupid, it says specifcally in the bible that the only way to eternal life is "through christ our lord" i dont think you can get more obvious than that

I believe the point is there is no proof what so ever that the words in the bible are true.

The obvious never dawns on people of "faith" that they just might be wrong.. I suppose that's what faith is, it's blind.. but maybe, just maybe there is no heaven and there is no hell.. perhaps it's more of a state of mind that we bring upon ourselves in our every day lives. Perhaps when you die, you're worm food, however have no fear... it's not like you'll be any the wiser. It's the circle of life.
Whether you believe or not, I believe that people such as yourself will have a seat in heaven.

Why? For the simple reason that you care about your fellow human beings and it comes shining through on your posts.

Some people can make their lives Hell on earth. Those people are angry, hateful, and vengeful and it shows to all around them. I know because I have lived that existence. I don't have to live that way today and for that I am grateful.

For the most part, your posts demonstrate a compassion for your fellow man/woman on this planet and I am grateful for that too.

i believe that christ is the only way to heaven. but-- i also believe that you are judge by your own competency. if you were never witnessed to, how could you accept jesus as your savior if you've never heard of him? i believe that god will judge us all fairly by what he knows we would've done if not witnessed to, ect.. he knows those things.

Well, not believing in Hell or Heaven or Christ, and not being part of any religion, and frankly not liking it, I would have to say no.

The obvious never dawns on people of "faith" that they just might be wrong.. I suppose that's what faith is, it's blind.. but maybe, just maybe there is no heaven and there is no hell.. perhaps it's more of a state of mind that we bring upon ourselves in our every day lives. Perhaps when you die, you're worm food, however have no fear... it's not like you'll be any the wiser. It's the circle of life.
Whether you believe or not, I believe that people such as yourself will have a seat in heaven.

Why? For the simple reason that you care about your fellow human beings and it comes shining through on your posts.

Some people can make their lives Hell on earth. Those people are angry, hateful, and vengeful and it shows to all around them. I know because I have lived that existence. I don't have to live that way today and for that I am grateful.

For the most part, your posts demonstrate a compassion for your fellow man/woman on this planet and I am grateful for that too.

Awww, I don't know what to say CanuckHeaven, thank you very much.. I think the same of your posts. You too care. I always enjoy reading your well thought out and researched posts.

You just made my day :)

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*Fortunately, you're right.

But bad Christians go to spiritual prison just the same as good atheists.

But live a good lidfe, and atheist or not, you'll have a chance to get out of hell on good behavior :)

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*Fortunately, you're right.

But bad Christians go to spiritual prison just the same as good atheists.

But live a good lidfe, and atheist or not, you'll have a chance to get out of hell on good behavior :)

You think!!!

We can only speculate. I said No on the poll. Because HMM??? What if Christianity was the WRONG religon? What then?

We can never truly find out till we die. But by then we're screwed over.

i don't believe in hell, but that's just me.

We can only speculate. I said No on the poll. Because HMM??? What if Christianity was the WRONG religon? What then?

We can never truly find out till we die. But by then we're screwed over.

Now that is a sane comment.. exactly.. we don't know, no one knows.. so the secret is be the best person you can be because it's the right thing to do, not because you fear some spooky father figure that may not even exist. We don't know, no one does!

it is sick to be worrying about other peoples salvation when yours is at stake. worry about your self before worrying about others.

Where is the option 'There is no Hell'?

Religion is wrong. :evil:

Well, I do not believe in the after-life or Heaven as Christians 'should' believe. I don't believe in anything absolute, but I would like to think that once I pass away from this existance, my soul or spirit will be one with the Earth again.

There is a story I once heard from a good Catholic friend of mine, it went something like this...

There is an ocean, and there were many waves of all sizes going to the shores of a land somewhere. As one of the waves near the land, it asked the wave beside it, "Are you scared that when you reach the shores that you become nothing?"

The other wave answered, "No, because after we reach it, we become part of the ocean again."

This story can be applied to any religion, to any faith. If you stay true to your beliefs, like I said in a previous post, nothing will be more absolute than that. 8]

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*Fortunately, you're right.

But bad Christians go to spiritual prison just the same as good atheists.

But live a good life, and atheist or not, you'll have a chance to get out of hell on good behavior :)

You think!!!Oh come on, we're dealing with religion here.

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*Fortunately, you're right.

But bad Christians go to spiritual prison just the same as good atheists.

But live a good life, and atheist or not, you'll have a chance to get out of hell on good behavior :)

You think!!!Oh come on, we're dealing with religion here.

Yeah, it doesn't have to make sense to us to be true.

My Sunday School teacher said I'm going to hell for asking too many questions. I guess if I'm going to Hell, I may as well go for broke.

:wink: rEAD THE BIBLE LOL

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*Fortunately, you're right.

But bad Christians go to spiritual prison just the same as good atheists.

But live a good life, and atheist or not, you'll have a chance to get out of hell on good behavior :)

You think!!!Oh come on, we're dealing with religion here.

Exactly, a concept with nothing to back it up.. it's like saying.. I wonder if people who don't believe in Harry Potter will all go to hell..lol It's silly.

I do not believe this. This is heresy of the worst kind. I guess maybe I shouldn't have expected any better from an internet nerd game, but still. What an absurd notion you relativists have come up with. "All beliefs are equally valid." That doesn't make sense. "There is absolutely no such thing as absolute truth." I find it hard to argue against you because your belief makes so little sense that it doesn't seem that even the best argument would have any effect. You think that believing something makes it "true for that person?" I suppose that that last sentance of whoever it was that started this topic, "don't torch anyone's beliefs" or something like that, shows the worldview behind you. Unable to come to grips with the truth. Now I am not God and I don't know if those who have been born where the gospel is not are damned, although being a Calvinist Presbyterian I can't honestly say that they aren't. That is why missions are so important. But even the pagan isolated peoples can see what you can't. They at least recognize that there is a God, and that we are in desperate need of his grace. They even see that he requires sacrifice, they just don't realize that that sacrifice has already been made. Honestly I can't say for certain that they are damned, but you who have seen the revelation have no excuse.


That is probably very harsh. I'm sorry, that is just what the presence of heresy does to me. I don't want to end on that. Not that I don't believe it, but Jesus is a God of love and he loves all of you despite your defaming of his precious name. He has extended his slavation to you to except. All man is damned by the fall collectively, even though it was only two of our number that actually ate the fruit. But as we all fell, so are we all saved if you will take it. You would be foolish not to. I've said my peace.

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

'tis a good thing you beleive in eternal life after life coz it woud be an eternity before I would :wink:

I'm too lazy to read all that you people have written. Heh.

All that I have to say is that you may leave God, but that doesn't mean that he has left you. Also, if there is God there must be Satan, no? And...You must know that people might belive in Satan, but that doens't necesarily mean that they follow him and that they're going to hell. I mean, I'm catholic and I belive in God, love him and that stuff, but I know that there is the devil that will cause horrible things in our lives...But God consideres everyone his children, so I think that non-christians will not go to hell. Unless they are filled with sins.

Well, I will shut up my 13 year old mouth and let you adults talk :P

Yes, I believe Non-Christians can go to heaven. There's a passage in the Bible that quite firmly re-enforces this belief for me.

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

'tis a good thing you beleive in eternal life after life coz it woud be an eternity before I would :wink:

I must read the bible o.o;

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus
Got a passage for that?

I don't want to go to either Heaven or Hell. I think you exist however you want to exist in the afterlife. I for one hope I can still watch/haunt Earth. Either that or i get reincarnated.


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http://www.blurbco.com/~gork/random/ignignot.gif
"Everyone, please, bow your heads, and pretend to be serious."

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of himself selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.

True true. But in the case of the murderer, I really, really doubt that he will be going to Heaven, unless he admits his past and is forgiven by God.

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

Yeah, isn't wen you don't have enough sins to got to Hell, yet you can't enter the gates to Heaven and they send you to this place?...I can't remember the name.

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

I have a get out of jail free card from my monopoly game.. Whew, I'm safe..lol

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

I have a get out of jail free card from my monopoly game.. Whew, I'm safe..lol

I don't know about that Steph. Zep told me you are very naughty... :wink:

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

I have a get out of jail free card from my monopoly game.. Whew, I'm safe..lol

I don't know about that Steph. Zep told me you are very naughty... :wink:

God likes naughty..lol She told me so last time we spoke..lol ;)

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

Yeah, isn't wen you don't have enough sins to got to Hell, yet you can't enter the gates to Heaven and they send you to this place?...I can't remember the name.Purgatory.

Nope, hell is hell. I have a get out of jail free card from my monopoly game.. Whew, I'm safe..lolGet out of Jail Free card: Faith in Christ and a life of Good works :)

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

Yeah, isn't wen you don't have enough sins to got to Hell, yet you can't enter the gates to Heaven and they send you to this place?...I can't remember the name.

The only place like that I have heard of is called Purgetory (sp?)

According to the bible, yes. The only way to enter heaven is through Jesus.

This is when you will all repent your sins and join our christian faith.

I'm waiting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how an Atheist who helps the needy, gives of him self selflessly, and lives (what is called today) a very moral and honest life will be going straight to hell while some mass murderer/ child molester who accepts that Jesus is his lord and saviour and asks for forgiveness in the final moments of his life will be going to heaven. That is just backword thinking.Like I said. You can get out of hell on good behavior :)

Spiritual prison is just like any other prison. You can earn your way out, beg your way out, or you can serve your sentence.

Yeah, isn't wen you don't have enough sins to got to Hell, yet you can't enter the gates to Heaven and they send you to this place?...I can't remember the name.Purgatory.

Nope, hell is hell. I have a get out of jail free card from my monopoly game.. Whew, I'm safe..lolGet out of Jail Free card: Faith in Christ and a life of Good works :)

How about I just live a good life because *I* feel it's the right thing to do.. and take my chances with the rest.. last score card I checked, I'm a hell of a lot less judgmental then you Ray.. If and that's a big IF there is in fact some sort of super being who cares about these things.. I'd say I have a better chance then you. ;)

How about I just live a good life because *I* feel it's the right thing to do.. and take my chances with the rest.. last score card I checked, I'm a hell of a lot less judgmental then you Ray.. If and that's a big IF there is in fact some sort of super being who cares about these things.. I'd say I have a better chance then you. ;)And as usual, you haven't listened to a bloody thing I said :P

The Righteous (Christian, Mormon, Jew, Atheist, whatever) who never quite make it into heaven, will have a second chance.

Remember? That was what that whole baptisms for the dead thread was about :P

Eh, hell is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people might like going to hell.

If Heaven's full of people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, you can sign me up for Hell.

Lol...same here. Go to www.rightwingeye.com

You'll enjoy it if you agree with the above!!

How about I just live a good life because *I* feel it's the right thing to do.. and take my chances with the rest.. last score card I checked, I'm a hell of a lot less judgmental then you Ray.. If and that's a big IF there is in fact some sort of super being who cares about these things.. I'd say I have a better chance then you. ;)And as usual, you haven't listened to a bloody thing I said :P

The Righteous (Christian, Mormon, Jew, Atheist, whatever) who never quite make it into heaven, will have a second chance.

Remember? That was what that whole baptisms for the dead thread was about :P

Yeah, I had the whole baptism thing done when I was born by my kooky parents..lol It was as they called it "The just in case policy" ..lol

Ray, you're far to judgmental to ever go to any place that claims prefection. Perhaps if you lived what you preach.. then and only then would you be able to hope to get to that rock show in the sky.

As for me, I'm doing just fine. I have a fabulous life and I don't care what other people do as long as they are not hurting any one else.. you should give it a try some time.

How about I just live a good life because *I* feel it's the right thing to do.. and take my chances with the rest.. last score card I checked, I'm a hell of a lot less judgmental then you Ray.. If and that's a big IF there is in fact some sort of super being who cares about these things.. I'd say I have a better chance then you. ;)And as usual, you haven't listened to a bloody thing I said :P

The Righteous (Christian, Mormon, Jew, Atheist, whatever) who never quite make it into heaven, will have a second chance.

Remember? That was what that whole baptisms for the dead thread was about :P

Yeah, I had the whole baptism thing done when I was born by my kooky parents..lol It was as they called it "The just in case policy" ..lol

Ray, you're far to judgmental to ever go to any place that claims prefection. Perhaps if you lived what you preach.. then and only then would you be able to hope to get to that rock show in the sky.

As for me, I'm doing just fine. I have a fabulous life and I don't care what other people do as long as they are not hurting any one else.. you should give it a try some time.Judgmental? lol Show me one time I was Judgmental to any person that wasn't a complete idiot :P

You know, it's a good thing that I'm not god, because if I was and I came across someone who was doing good with their eyes on the gates of Heaven and not on the need for good to be done, they'd be the last person I'd admit.

Find me a place with those who did good stuff because it was needed, whether they're damned or not. They're the kind of people I could bear spending an eternity with.

You know, it's a good thing that I'm not god, because if I was and I came across someone who was doing good with their eyes on the gates of Heaven and not on the need for good to be done, they'd be the last person I'd admit.

Find me a place with those who did good stuff because it was needed, whether they're damned or not. They're the kind of people I could bear spending an eternity with.Faith without works is dead.

You know, it's a good thing that I'm not god, because if I was and I came across someone who was doing good with their eyes on the gates of Heaven and not on the need for good to be done, they'd be the last person I'd admit.

Find me a place with those who did good stuff because it was needed, whether they're damned or not. They're the kind of people I could bear spending an eternity with.Faith without works is dead.

Not a proponent of sola fide, eh, Ray?

How about I just live a good life because *I* feel it's the right thing to do.. and take my chances with the rest.. last score card I checked, I'm a hell of a lot less judgmental then you Ray.. If and that's a big IF there is in fact some sort of super being who cares about these things.. I'd say I have a better chance then you. ;)And as usual, you haven't listened to a bloody thing I said :P

The Righteous (Christian, Mormon, Jew, Atheist, whatever) who never quite make it into heaven, will have a second chance.

Remember? That was what that whole baptisms for the dead thread was about :P

Yeah, I had the whole baptism thing done when I was born by my kooky parents..lol It was as they called it "The just in case policy" ..lol

Ray, you're far to judgmental to ever go to any place that claims prefection. Perhaps if you lived what you preach.. then and only then would you be able to hope to get to that rock show in the sky.

As for me, I'm doing just fine. I have a fabulous life and I don't care what other people do as long as they are not hurting any one else.. you should give it a try some time.Judgmental? lol Show me one time I was Judgmental to any person that wasn't a complete idiot :P

:roll:

Not going there Ray.. I would be posting too many of your threads.. homosexuals off the top of my head.. you don't have to agree with their lifestyle, but you have been down right judgmental..I could go on and on.. I know many on this site if they per chance read this thread will back me up on it..

Just admit it, if there is a heaven, I'm going and you're not.. Save yourself before it's to late, stop judging people because you don't agree with their lifestyle.. Isn't only God suppose to judge people? I'm going to heaven and you're not.. nanny nanny nanny ..lol :P

I'm just razzing you Ray.. although you are very judgmental, I stand by that.

You know, it's a good thing that I'm not god, because if I was and I came across someone who was doing good with their eyes on the gates of Heaven and not on the need for good to be done, they'd be the last person I'd admit.

Find me a place with those who did good stuff because it was needed, whether they're damned or not. They're the kind of people I could bear spending an eternity with.Faith without works is dead.

Not a proponent of sola fide, eh, Ray?not a protestant.

I'm just razzing you Ray.. although you are very judgmental, I stand by that.Hey, that hurts! I really try not to be! I very rarely ever Judge people. Sure, i'll judge Ideas and behaviors, but not people.

You've talked to me enough to know that I love gays but disapprove of homosexuality.

You have a problem many do... you automatically think that when someone speaks out against homosexuality they hate gays... come on, you should know better than that! I'm tolerant, just not open-minded :P

I'm not all that christian but that shouldn't mean a thing. Jesus would be sick if he saw people telling others if they don't believe his teachings they are going to burn for all eternity. The main idea behind Christianity is be nice to others. Telling someone they are going to burn for all eternity isnt very nice now, is it?

If Bush said they're all [i.e. non-Christians] going to hell, and he thinks he's always right, they must all be going to hell.

You know, it's a good thing that I'm not god, because if I was and I came across someone who was doing good with their eyes on the gates of Heaven and not on the need for good to be done, they'd be the last person I'd admit.

Find me a place with those who did good stuff because it was needed, whether they're damned or not. They're the kind of people I could bear spending an eternity with.Faith without works is dead.

Not a proponent of sola fide, eh, Ray?not a protestant.

Yeah, I know. I respect the Mormon faith, BTW. Just don't expect me to convert. :wink:

If Bush said they're all [i.e. non-Christians] going to hell, and he thinks he's always right, they must all be going to hell.wtf? When did he ever say that?

Although, him being raised a protestant.. i don't doubt he might THINK that... but say it?

Judgmental? lol Show me one time I was Judgmental to any person that wasn't a complete idiot

Exhibit A

Judgmental? lol Show me one time I was Judgmental to any person that wasn't a complete idiot

Exhibit AYeah, OK, so I'm Judgmental of Rednecks, Terrorists, and John Kerry :P

Judgmental? lol Show me one time I was Judgmental to any person that wasn't a complete idiot

Exhibit AYeah, OK, so I'm Judgmental of Rednecks, Terrorists, and John Kerry :P

Work on that Ray..lol :P

You don't have to agree with them, but don't judge them.. that too is part of your religion.. I don't agree with your religion, but you do.. so you should live by it, not me.

And now for "My Two Cents"

I believe that God, LIKES it when people go to Heaven, IMHO, he is going to do everything he can to get Anyone to go to Heaven He can... For this Reason I reject out of Hand the people who claim: "If thou does not join (fill in the blank church) Thou'st is Going Straight to Hell!"

Because, in all honestly, it is just stupid to believe some Muslim, who lives a holy life, obeys all laws, raises a happy family... Is going straight to Hell, But some Catholic guy, who cheats on his taxes, acts corrupts, goto church once a month, and brushes off poor people on th street, is going to get a 'Free Pass' to Heaven.

See where I’m going with this?

What it comes down to is, IMHO... It shouldn’t matter WHAT Religion you are so long as you lead a holy, pure and good life. If your Muslim, then gosh darn it, be the best darn Muslim you can be! Obey the Koran, follow Mohammad, and do all the rest. Catholic? Then you ACTUALLY believe those 'cookies' you eat really are the body of Christ, because, that’s what your faith tells you to believe. Mormon? Then you follow all the Teachings of the Mormon faith,

See, for me, I see God as not just a 'worldly' force of Pure Good, but also a 'Universal' Force... If you look at other worlds, there should be TRILLIONS of different religions! So its impossible to say any 'One' Religion is good! As Such.. Whatever Faith you chose... Believe it, obey it, and Be a Good Soul!

And that’s my Two Cents!!!

P.S. The basis for my feelings on this comes from when I asked my Priest at the age of 8, "Did cave men goto Heaven Since they died before Christ came?" He hounstly didn't give me a satisfactory answere, and I have been finding my own answeres ever since. Question things, its good for the soul... Faith is Good, but BLIND Faith is bad.

There is no torture in Hell. There is no special punishment in Hell. Hell is not a kingdom, there is no unity between Heaven and Hell, and non-believers in Christ go to Hell.

Hell is so much more simple than people try to make it out to be. It is simply an endless Lake of Fire that is at this time non-existant. There is "Hades" at the moment, where the dead who are not believers are sent into as kind of a holding pen until post-Armageddon, when Christ will cast them into the Lake of Fire along with the Beast and Satan. After a thousand years Satan will be released to try to tempt man once more, then he will try one more uprising and will be done away with permanently.

According to the Bible there is but one unforgiveable sin, the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, or in other words refusal to have faith in Christ. The very bible people say won't condemn them...does.

God is loving, and caring, and merciful, but I don't know about you but if *I* died for you and then you said "No you didn't you lying bastard" I would be pretty offended and say to stay out of my house.

And personally...I do study theology and religion...and that's when I came upon Dante's Divine Comedy. It was a political story that Dante wrote to try to challenge his enemies and gain favor with the Church in the 1300's. If you'll note...all his political rivals are conveniently in the worst parts of Hell...as are mythical figures who never existed (Odysseus, Achilles, giants I believe?).

There's one way into Heaven. It's easy to get in.

And for those who say it depends on your behavior...

"For by grace we have been saved through faith, not deeds, lest any man should boast".

You can be the greatest person in the world, if you turn your back on God, he turns his back on you.


I'm not all that christian but that shouldn't mean a thing. Jesus would be sick if he saw people telling others if they don't believe his teachings they are going to burn for all eternity. The main idea behind Christianity is be nice to others. Telling someone they are going to burn for all eternity isnt very nice now, is it?

......

Please don't speak of that which you don't know.

You can be the greatest person in the world, if you turn your back on God, he turns his back on you. So.. In other words your promoting the EXACT opposide of what I just said in my post?

Hell? Man, I told everyone to stay the heck away from Georgia.


Ah it's fun being in a religion that doesn't believe in Hell.
Honestly, as humans, I think we have a hard enough time doing what is right in this world to worry about what will get us into the next.

This will be my only post on this thread, as I have a little habit of talking about religion, and getting long winded when I do. I promise to try to keep this a short one.

It is the belief, of my faith, that there is such a thing as judgement day. I will try to explain how we look at this. Everyone has a chance to get into heaven. The thing is, and this is just my belief, God then judges you on the life you have lead, not on the faith you have followed.
Just so as to not upset some of the Christians who read this post let me say: He who is first shall be last and he who is last shall be first.
People may argue that this is a self defeating thought process (why practice a faith all your life if it means you will be the last accepted into heaven). In answer to that I must state that I would gladly give my place in line to a person who had just then accepted God, and had led a good life. The acceptance of God is one condition that I do believe is neccessary. If a person is being judged and they state, "You can't be God you don't exist." then that person would condemn themself to either some form of Hell or into total oblivion. Hell is the last issue I will mention. It is just a place, that is worse to be, than our feable minds can imagine.

Is it just me, or does it not say in the Bible, "Judge not lest ye be judged"?

Anyway, I believe that when a person dies, their own belief dictates what happens. If they believe there is nothing after death, then they cease to exist. If they're Christian and believe in Heaven and Hell, then they'll go to one of those places depending on the life they've lived (or as the poll states, if they believe that if you're Christian, you automaticly go to Heaven, then they will.)

And, a random note: I sold my soul to myself, so -I- can have control over what happens to it. Blasphemer of Christianity? Sure, maybe I am. But not to my own beliefs.

According to the Bible there is but one unforgiveable sin, the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, or in other words refusal to have faith in Christ.

What Bible might that be? I don't recall the Torah saying anything about Christ.

God is loving, and caring, and merciful, but I don't know about you but if *I* died for you and then you said "No you didn't you lying bastard" I would be pretty offended and say to stay out of my house.

Actually, to be accurate, I don't see myself as telling GOD "No you didn't"- I see myself telling Christians, "No he didn't". Obviously, if I believed God HAD died for my sins (which I see as ludicrous, btw), then it would be pretty stupid of me to say, "No YOU didn't."

I don't think you guys are liars, btw. You merely believe in something I believe to be incorrect. The term "lie" would imply that you knew it was false, and yet chose to say it was true anyway. In fact, however, no one knows any "facts" about God, or Jesus, or any of it. It's all belief, and hence all up for grabs.

There's one way into Heaven. It's easy to get in.

Quite right. Being a good person.

And for those who say it depends on your behavior...

"For by grace we have been saved through faith, not deeds, lest any man should boast".

You have your quotes, and I have mine. :wink:

You can be the greatest person in the world, if you turn your back on God, he turns his back on you.

Your opinion. My opinion is that if there is a God, one pleases him through one's behavior, and that the greatest act of turning one's back on him would be to act badly.

I guess we'll have to wait a while until we find out who's right. Luckily, I intend to live my life how I wish. If that winds up sending me to Hell, well, that's God's perrogative. I still have the right to live my life according to MY standards. It is MY life, after all.

"It is not the will of the Father that any should perish" 1st Peter 5:8

"God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world" John 3:17.

Key verses for universalists like me.

prove to me that theres a god and ill concede that im going to hell. the bible contadicts itself many times and recetly its been discovered that the catholic church has left books out of it becuase of their content.

:lol:

Where is the option 'There is no Hell'?

Religion is wrong. :evil:

I believe that all humans have some kind of religion, though they may not acknowledge it themselves. Perhaps the need to worship is in our genes?

prove to me that theres a god and ill concede that im going to hell. the bible contadicts itself many times and recetly its been discovered that the catholic church has left books out of it becuase of their content.

The Catholics are pikers. You should see the stuff Luther left out! :)
It's called editing. Ask Max Barry about it. It means cutting out the crap.

No one's interested about all that Meithra stuff? I'm a bit disappointed with you, coss to me it means that christianity is just one more religion in the midst of many, and should deserve the special position many gice to it. Sure, it's has a large number of "followers", but thats just because their ancestors have been forced into the church (I'm not saying into faith, because how can you force anyone into believing anything except by presenting them with hard facts which force them to believe?).

Worship what you may, as you may, just go around hurting others. This ofcourse leads us to question if we can ever know if we're hurting someone.

I'm very disappointed with all of you! :evil:

And now for "My Two Cents"

I believe that God, LIKES it when people go to Heaven, IMHO, he is going to do everything he can to get Anyone to go to Heaven He can... For this Reason I reject out of Hand the people who claim: "If thou does not join (fill in the blank church) Thou'st is Going Straight to Hell!"

Because, in all honestly, it is just stupid to believe some Muslim, who lives a holy life, obeys all laws, raises a happy family... Is going straight to Hell, But some Catholic guy, who cheats on his taxes, acts corrupts, goto church once a month, and brushes off poor people on th street, is going to get a 'Free Pass' to Heaven.

See where I’m going with this?

What it comes down to is, IMHO... It shouldn’t matter WHAT Religion you are so long as you lead a holy, pure and good life. If your Muslim, then gosh darn it, be the best darn Muslim you can be! Obey the Koran, follow Mohammad, and do all the rest. Catholic? Then you ACTUALLY believe those 'cookies' you eat really are the body of Christ, because, that’s what your faith tells you to believe. Mormon? Then you follow all the Teachings of the Mormon faith,

See, for me, I see God as not just a 'worldly' force of Pure Good, but also a 'Universal' Force... If you look at other worlds, there should be TRILLIONS of different religions! So its impossible to say any 'One' Religion is good! As Such.. Whatever Faith you chose... Believe it, obey it, and Be a Good Soul!

And that’s my Two Cents!!!

P.S. The basis for my feelings on this comes from when I asked my Priest at the age of 8, "Did cave men goto Heaven Since they died before Christ came?" He hounstly didn't give me a satisfactory answere, and I have been finding my own answeres ever since. Question things, its good for the soul... Faith is Good, but BLIND Faith is bad.

What Bible might that be? I don't recall the Torah saying anything about Christ.

....Torah says a *lot* about Christ. And even then...that's only one of the Jewish books.

Actually, to be accurate, I don't see myself as telling GOD "No you didn't"- I see myself telling Christians, "No he didn't".

....very little difference there if any.

Obviously, if I believed God HAD died for my sins (which I see as ludicrous, btw),

It's kind of a complicated thing to explain - in fact I do not entirely understand it myself.

However the fact is this:

God sent his son. (Who a lot of people say was also him). He died on the cross to save us, giving himself up.

Then it would be pretty stupid of me to say, "No YOU didn't."

And yet every single major religion in the world claims that a man named Heshua Nazarene existed (Jesus of Nazareth) and died on a cross (except Islam who believes he was ascended into Heaven before he died).

I don't think you guys are liars, btw. You merely believe in something I believe to be incorrect. The term "lie" would imply that you knew it was false, and yet chose to say it was true anyway. In fact, however, no one knows any "facts" about God, or Jesus, or any of it. It's all belief, and hence all up for grabs.

There's enough evidence to support Jesus Christ and the bible to condemn a man to life in prison.

Quite right. Being a good person.

Funny, neither the Torah (only one of the Jewish books btw) nor the Bible says that. In fact...they say the opposite.


You have your quotes, and I have mine.

That actually I don't know...post them.




Your opinion. My opinion is that if there is a God, one pleases him through one's behavior, and that the greatest act of turning one's back on him would be to act badly.

However my *faith* dictates that statement. Perosnally, I don't care what you believe. What I care about is that the bible that I and Christianity follows indicates that it is not by actions, but by faith you're saved.

I guess we'll have to wait a while until we find out who's right. Luckily, I intend to live my life how I wish. If that winds up sending me to Hell, well, that's God's perrogative. I still have the right to live my life according to MY standards. It is MY life, after all.

That's what the Bible is all about. The most boggling thing though is that people are so anal that they'll go "I don't care if I wind up in Hell, I'd rather do that than say that God exists"....personally if I had a choice, I'd go out on a limb and believe in God...just in case.

I'm going to hell, but it's not for being a non-Christian. It's based solely on my own merits. :D

However the fact is this:

God sent his son. (Who a lot of people say was also him). He died on the cross to save us, giving himself up.


wow, you call that a fact?! come on, you can do better than that.



And yet every single major religion in the world claims that a man named Heshua Nazarene existed (Jesus of Nazareth) and died on a cross (except Islam who believes he was ascended into Heaven before he died).


um, no. you must really not know much about world religions if you honestly believe that. please show evidence of your claims, i am quite interested to hear it.


There's enough evidence to support Jesus Christ and the bible to condemn a man to life in prison.


no, there isn't. even top Bible scholars agree that the original Biblical texts have been terribly corrupted over the centuries, and there is ample evidence that large portions of the Bible have been significantly altered or even removed. there is no evidence whatsoever that supports the theory that the Bible is the word of God.


That's what the Bible is all about. The most boggling thing though is that people are so anal that they'll go "I don't care if I wind up in Hell, I'd rather do that than say that God exists"....personally if I had a choice, I'd go out on a limb and believe in God...just in case.

some of us believe that our lives are more important than superstition, and that it is wrong to waste our only chance at existence in the futile attempt to curry favor with an imaginary father figure. many people believe it is the worst use of human life to spend it in preparation for death, so to our views you are going out on a pretty flimsy limb for little to no reason; from my point of view you are risking far worse than Hell by chosing your faith.

....Torah says a *lot* about Christ. And even then...that's only one of the Jewish books.




Funny, neither the Torah (only one of the Jewish books btw) nor the Bible says that. In fact...they say the opposite.


If you are going to be particular, the Torah is a collection of the first five books of what you call the Old Testiment. It is also called the Law. The other books are baiscally books of history. Oh... I know you are trying to say that Jesus = Christ, but Jesus was Jesus. Christ means "the anointed one". That may be Jesus, it may not. The old Testiment does not specify that.



That's what the Bible is all about. The most boggling thing though is that people are so anal that they'll go "I don't care if I wind up in Hell, I'd rather do that than say that God exists"....personally if I had a choice, I'd go out on a limb and believe in God...just in case.

That is one very common misconception about Atheists. Many people think that an Atheist says "Ha. There is no way that I will believe in this god fellow. I am just going to be stubborn and not believe." Many Atheists (me, for example) do not simply make the bDECISION that they do not believe in any gods. They come to the REALIZATION that they CANNOT logically believe. With that realization, you cannot simply say "Ok. I will believe in God just in case." In the back of your mind you would always doubt it. It wouldn't be real anyway. As a former Christian, I struggled for years with my belief. I used to be very strong in my faith, but as time wore on, I began to question little things. Those little things turned to bigger things and even clergy couldn't give me a straight answer. After years of searching, I recently came to the realization that God just doesn't exist. Might I be wrong? Sure, but I do not believe I am.

The Philsosophers among you will like this one,

I can think of a perfect being, one that has evry concievable perfection immaginable, now if he only existed in my imagination he would not be all perfect, since he (or she or whatever) could obviously not do anything usefull, therefore, God must exist outside of my mind, because the powers i ascribe to him require him to exist.

The Philsosophers among you will like this one,

I can think of a perfect being, one that has evry concievable perfection immaginable, now if he only existed in my imagination he would not be all perfect, since he (or she or whatever) could obviously not do anything usefull, therefore, God must exist outside of my mind, because the powers i ascribe to him require him to exist.

Yep. That's called a paradox.

The Philsosophers among you will like this one,

I can think of a perfect being, one that has evry concievable perfection immaginable, now if he only existed in my imagination he would not be all perfect, since he (or she or whatever) could obviously not do anything usefull, therefore, God must exist outside of my mind, because the powers i ascribe to him require him to exist.

Yep. That's called a paradox.

right. and since my perfect being is a giant purple unicorn then it must exist, by definition.

dfkad;fjdasi;fdas;fkjd;asfj

I'm going to hell, but it's not for being a non-Christian. It's based solely on my own merits. :D

Congratulations! :lol:

I bet they have better drinks there.

That's what the Bible is all about. The most boggling thing though is that people are so anal that they'll go "I don't care if I wind up in Hell, I'd rather do that than say that God exists"....personally if I had a choice, I'd go out on a limb and believe in God...just in case.

by saying that you simply are acting that you belive in god. you dont actually belive in god, youre saying it to save yourself and if there was a god im sure hed be all knowing and therefore know that you dont actually belive in him/her/it/them.

when you die you go where you think youre gonna go becuase your prepreogram that into to your mind so you think your in heaven/hell/whatever.

when i die, im going to limbo, yes limbo. ill figure out a way to get in *shakes fist*

by saying that you simply are acting that you belive in god. you dont actually belive in god, youre saying it to save yourself and if there was a god im sure hed be all knowing and therefore know that you dont actually belive in him/her/it/them.

Worked for Camus. :D



when you die you go where you think youre gonna go becuase your prepreogram that into to your mind so you think your in heaven/hell/whatever.

Most likely true, if you believe in an afterlife. We all fashion our own hells while praying for our own heavens and ignoring the rich pagent that is life around us. If there is one thing about the Church that I am most ashamed of, it would be this.


:D

I think if God is as loving as most churchs say he is then he could not set anyone to eternal punishment. I don't think Hell exists but there could be a purgatory.

God has two sides, a just, stern side and a peace, loving side.

You can't get to either extreme and claim that as God's personality.

But then God is fair. I think God will judge each person differently.

prove to me that theres a god and ill concede that im going to hell. the bible contadicts itself many times and recetly its been discovered that the catholic church has left books out of it becuase of their content.

I don't think that is a recent discovery.

prove to me that theres a god and ill concede that im going to hell. the bible contadicts itself many times and recetly its been discovered that the catholic church has left books out of it becuase of their content.

The Catholics are pikers. You should see the stuff Luther left out! :)
It's called editing. Ask Max Barry about it. It means cutting out the crap.

Well, we have alot more books to get rid of then.

What does 'pikers' mean? Humor a poor Southern boy, please.

Many people, including myself, have alternate beliefs which we believe in just as firming as the christians do. To "condemn" probably at least half, perhaps more, of the worlds population to one particular religions version of an afterlife is rather presumptous (sp?). The Christian "hell" is just something to keep all the good little parishoners in line.

There is no heaven, there is no hell. Face it people the church is a political organistaion. Saying that you go to hell if you dont belong to our church is without doubt the greatest advertising jingle of all time. Its like coke saying that the girls/boys wont like you if you dont drink our product.

Im an atheist and proud of it, let go of your faith people. When I did, it was the most liberating experence of my life.

I'm going to hell, but it's not for being a non-Christian. It's based solely on my own merits. :D

Congratulations! :lol:

I bet they have better drinks there.

Thank you. I hear it's lovely this time of year.

The most boggling thing though is that people are so anal that they'll go "I don't care if I wind up in Hell, I'd rather do that than say that God exists"....personally if I had a choice, I'd go out on a limb and believe in God...just in case.

Hey, well as long as we're just playing at believing just in case...

Might as well have fun believing while we're at it! (http://www.jesus-action-figure.com/)


:wink:

If anyone's going to hell, it's not for eternity.

Those who have not found Christ and repented of their sins will go to a state of hell for at least 1000 years, where they pay for their sins temselves, instead of allowing Christ to pay for them.

Either way, we all wind up resurrected, and sorted into kingdoms and degrees of glory depending on our worthiness.

I myself have been somewhat critical towards christianity since I was elevan, so I'll post some of my questions and opinions:

How does a loving god condemn his own offspring to sufering, especially considering that he IS so merciful and all that?

I'm worried about that whole "those whom have not found Christ" thing: is it necessarily someones fault if he/she has never even heard of Jesus, was it sinful for that person to be born in a wrong place or at a wrong time?
If finding Jesus means figuring out his doctrine (by this I mean solidarity), may it be from any source, you wouldn't have to be a christian to get to heaven.

"There are no degrees of heaven, or degrees of hell. All people who except christ go to the same heaven, all people who reject christ go to the same hell. Christ's atonement leveled the playing field, we are all equal in God's sight. If two people are christian, and one sins more then the other, they are still going to the same heaven"

Somehow I have understood the tale that Jesus died to pay for the sins of MANKIND, not just christians, who didn't really excist in those days, or atleast they weren't known as christians.

By the way, have any of you ever read the Bible? I won't go ahead and claim that I have, though some parts I have. In the old testament, God seems rather vengeful and a real menace, just think about the slaughter of Egyptian children. On a second note, my grandfather atleast claims (beyond resounable doubt, he is a very christian person) that he has read the whole "book of the books", and according to him Hell isn't even mentioned in the Bible. He says that in the Bible the thing is put this way: good people are resurrected on Judgement day and they will have the joy of living in the kingdom of God (or something like that, might have been that Heaven was mentioned), and bad people REMAIN IN THEIR GRAVE in oblivion, they no longer excist.
So by this I determine that Hell has always been, since the Dark Age, an intimation method of the Church to get people do their bidding. The word translated into English as hell is literally translated "grave". Hell is a forced concept that was introduced by the Roman church in it's evolution (devolution) into a world power.

The Catholic Church as Gods kingdom on earth doesn't seem so divine if you consider this, and about all the wars that it has sponsored though I believe that "thou shall not kill" is in the ten commandments. The word translated kill is more accurately rendered as "murder.' There is a distinction between killing and murder. Self defense is a generally accepted form of this distinction. Were it literally "kill" then even a traffic accident resulting in the death of another would be included as would the taking of any life for food. After all, even plants are alive.

Though there appears to be evidence that Jesus has once lived, much of christianity is based upon an different cult altogether. I suppose you all know that christianity was pretty popular in some time of the Roman Empire, but far from all Romans were christians. When one of the emperors, can't recall his name right now, Constantine 324 A.D. (C.E.) (http://jeru.huji.ac.il/ed31.htm) declared christianity as the official religion of Rome, some adjustments had to be made.
Around 250 B.C. the Meithra (hence my nation's name) cult was born. Meithra, then son of Sun, is practiacally Jesus; their miracles are pretty much the same, turning water into wine and all that. In the end of Meithra's story, he drove to the sun in a chariot, hence Jesus' resurrection.
Apparently this cult was DA Thing in the time that christianity became the official religion in rome. Peopple were far more satisfied having just to replace the name of their god, rather than to replace the god altogether.
In case you've ever wondered, Christmas is the birthday of Sun. Are you referring to Mithra (http://www.vetssweatshop.net/dogma.htm)? The transmogrification you mention aligns with the prepensity of many different cultures adapting Christianity to their own preexisting concepts of God. That was one of the major reasons for the Nicean Council of 325 A.D. (C.E.) to codify what Christianity was.

I guess there are atleast some that don't belive this stuff, but check it out! Internet is right there in front of you, you all have a Bible at home, and probaply even decent library's near you.

As Robert Anton Wilson put it: Think for your self, schmuck! ;)

:wink: rEAD THE BIBLE LOL

Whose version? There are quite a few floating around with very liberal interpertation applied to all. The KJV, which was translated from the manuscripts available, and which has been the basis of most of the other English versions, was not politically influenced?

:shock:

Hell is completly a creation of man. Even if Hell was real, I do not believe that only Christians would be exempt. Using the good and bad logic... the good people should go to heaven and the bad people should go to hell. Belief has nothing to do wilh living a good life or not. Personally, I believe that if there is an afterlife, you will go there with no concequences or rewards from your previous existance here. *prepares to be flamed*Fortunately, you're right.

But bad Christians go to spiritual prison just the same as good atheists.

But live a good life, and atheist or not, you'll have a chance to get out of hell on good behavior :)

You think!!!Oh come on, we're dealing with religion here.

Exactly, a concept with nothing to back it up.. it's like saying.. I wonder if people who don't believe in Harry Potter will all go to hell..lol It's silly.

YOU DON'T BEIELVE IN HARRY POTTER?!?!?!?!?!?

:shock:

if there is a christian heaven, it will probably admit anybody that does as good as possible within the restrictions of their society.

I think God kinda grades on effort, not on necessarily getting everything right. I think your place in the afterlife is determined by how you treat others, not what particular religion you are. The real message of Christ is love. I think that's really what counts.

What Bible might that be? I don't recall the Torah saying anything about Christ.

....Torah says a *lot* about Christ. And even then...that's only one of the Jewish books.

Actually, the "Torah" is composed of five different books. And I'd argue that my statements holds true for the entire Hebrew Bible. If you can find a quote that mentions "Jesus Christ", feel free to toss it out.

[Actually, to be accurate, I don't see myself as telling GOD "No you didn't"- I see myself telling Christians, "No he didn't".

....very little difference there if any.

Your opinion. I obviously disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have pointed out the significant difference I see as existing.

Obviously, if I believed God HAD died for my sins (which I see as ludicrous, btw),

It's kind of a complicated thing to explain - in fact I do not entirely understand it myself.

However the fact is this:

God sent his son. (Who a lot of people say was also him). He died on the cross to save us, giving himself up.

If you want to believe that, it's fine. Go you. I, however, DON'T. And you're not going to convince me of it.

Then it would be pretty stupid of me to say, "No YOU didn't."

And yet every single major religion in the world claims that a man named Heshua Nazarene existed (Jesus of Nazareth) and died on a cross (except Islam who believes he was ascended into Heaven before he died).

First, what constitutes a "major" religion? :roll: Secondly, as far as I know, Judaism does not have an "official" position on whether Jesus ever existed, much less if he died on a cross.

Please cite some sources of all these "major religions" that believe in Jesus and his crucifixion.

... Also, the mere fact that a bunch of religions believe he existed and died in NO way indicate any evidence that the story about him being divine or "died for our sins" is true. Any more than the fact that most people believe dinosaurs existed and died would be evidence that THEY were divine or died for our sins.

I don't think you guys are liars, btw. You merely believe in something I believe to be incorrect. The term "lie" would imply that you knew it was false, and yet chose to say it was true anyway. In fact, however, no one knows any "facts" about God, or Jesus, or any of it. It's all belief, and hence all up for grabs.

There's enough evidence to support Jesus Christ and the bible to condemn a man to life in prison.

O....K??

Quite right. Being a good person.

Funny, neither the Torah (only one of the Jewish books btw) nor the Bible says that. In fact...they say the opposite.

First of all, the Torah is PART of the Bible. You can't say, "neither the Torah nor the Bible"- that statement is meaningless.

Secondly, the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) does not give a clear picture of its position on this matter. In some areas, deeds are indeed emphasized. Elsewhere, they are not. It's ambiguous. To say "they say the opposite" is to willingly ignore those contrary passages, and is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty.

You have your quotes, and I have mine.

That actually I don't know...post them.

I can't pull any quotes out of my butt, I don't know the Tanach that extensively. However, the emphasis in, say, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, clearly seems to be on the actions that God is telling the Israelites to do, many of which are described as being "eternal". From here Judaism gets the basic idea that it is THESE actions that are particularly important. Hence the Jewish motto, "Deed before Creed". And, like you said, the Torah is only one of the Jewish books. The Talmud and other rabbinical texts make the deed/creed hierarchy quite clear.

I personally do not believe in following all of the mitzvot, because I do not see them all as being relevant to being a good person. But, again, that's MY position.

Your opinion. My opinion is that if there is a God, one pleases him through one's behavior, and that the greatest act of turning one's back on him would be to act badly.

However my *faith* dictates that statement. Perosnally, I don't care what you believe. What I care about is that the bible that I and Christianity follows indicates that it is not by actions, but by faith you're saved.

Mazel Tov. I don't care. You can believe whatever you like. As long as it has no effect on me, why should it be any concern of mine?

I guess we'll have to wait a while until we find out who's right. Luckily, I intend to live my life how I wish. If that winds up sending me to Hell, well, that's God's perrogative. I still have the right to live my life according to MY standards. It is MY life, after all.

That's what the Bible is all about. The most boggling thing though is that people are so anal that they'll go "I don't care if I wind up in Hell, I'd rather do that than say that God exists"....personally if I had a choice, I'd go out on a limb and believe in God...just in case.

Your right. And my right to do what I wish.

And I don't see this as being a pride thing, BTW- it's not about me being too big to say God exists. It's about me honestly not knowing. And rather than delude myself into thinking that I DO believe it, I prefer to live with the unknown. Now, other people DO know what they believe, and that's great. You believe in Christ, other people believe in whatever, fantastic. But I believe that it's impossible to REALLY know. So I don't fool myself into thinking that I do. That's what <b>I</b> believe.

I do not believe this. This is heresy of the worst kind. I guess maybe I shouldn't have expected any better from an internet nerd game, but still. What an absurd notion you relativists have come up with. "All beliefs are equally valid." That doesn't make sense. "There is absolutely no such thing as absolute truth." I find it hard to argue against you because your belief makes so little sense that it doesn't seem that even the best argument would have any effect. You think that believing something makes it "true for that person?" I suppose that that last sentance of whoever it was that started this topic, "don't torch anyone's beliefs" or something like that, shows the worldview behind you. Unable to come to grips with the truth. Now I am not God and I don't know if those who have been born where the gospel is not are damned, although being a Calvinist Presbyterian I can't honestly say that they aren't. That is why missions are so important. But even the pagan isolated peoples can see what you can't. They at least recognize that there is a God, and that we are in desperate need of his grace. They even see that he requires sacrifice, they just don't realize that that sacrifice has already been made. Honestly I can't say for certain that they are damned, but you who have seen the revelation have no excuse.


That is probably very harsh. I'm sorry, that is just what the presence of heresy does to me. I don't want to end on that. Not that I don't believe it, but Jesus is a God of love and he loves all of you despite your defaming of his precious name. He has extended his slavation to you to except. All man is damned by the fall collectively, even though it was only two of our number that actually ate the fruit. But as we all fell, so are we all saved if you will take it. You would be foolish not to. I've said my peace.Give me a moment of your time here. You have said, "You think that believing something makes it "true for that person?" There is a figure of speech here that you seem to be missing. If you choose to accept something as a truth, or the absolute truth, then to you it is true. To you then all others are knaves, fools or, to use your term, heretics. Perhaps mistaken would be too kind in your eyes.

You cite the capacity of pagan isolated peoples capacity for faith. You neglect to mention their capacity for fantastic superstition as well. Your evidence that sophisticated, urbane thinking people either lack or choose to discount what you, because of your chosen (at least I hope so) beliefs, hold to be irrefutable fact is delusional. My tyrannical Tri-Toned friend, it is you who are lost in a vicious circle. Those who do not share your beliefs will never come to them at the point of an imaginary gun to the head of their purported immortal souls.

The difference between you and the majority of those who hold otherwise is that we are willing to tolerate your right to think as you do. You on the other hand display no such grace.

Pity. You are your religions own worst salesperson.

:shock:

What an absurd notion you relativists have come up with. "All beliefs are equally valid." That doesn't make sense.

Actually, it makes far more sense to me than to say that out of all the belief systems on earth, the one you were born into just "happened" to be right. Wouldn't you say that's rather lucky? :roll:

"There is absolutely no such thing as absolute truth." I find it hard to argue against you because your belief makes so little sense that it doesn't seem that even the best argument would have any effect.

Wow, refusing to argue a point because the point is so dumb that even the "best argument" wouldn't work on it. That sure is, um... creative? Lazy?

You think that believing something makes it "true for that person?" I suppose that that last sentance of whoever it was that started this topic, "don't torch anyone's beliefs" or something like that, shows the worldview behind you. Unable to come to grips with the truth.

I'm unconvinced "religious truth" exists at all. I wouldn't even go so far as to say believing X makes X "true" for someone. I think truth is such a loaded word it doesn't belong in the discussion at all. All we have are various opinions and beliefs. Truth has little to do with it.

Now I am not God and I don't know if those who have been born where the gospel is not are damned, although being a Calvinist Presbyterian I can't honestly say that they aren't. That is why missions are so important. But even the pagan isolated peoples can see what you can't. They at least recognize that there is a God, and that we are in desperate need of his grace. They even see that he requires sacrifice, they just don't realize that that sacrifice has already been made. Honestly I can't say for certain that they are damned, but you who have seen the revelation have no excuse.

"seen the revelation"? What on earth does that mean, if you'll pardon my ignorance?

That is probably very harsh. I'm sorry, that is just what the presence of heresy does to me.

So if I were to spit in your eye, and then say, "Sorry, that's just what the presence of missionaries does to me", it would be cool? Good to know.

I don't want to end on that. Not that I don't believe it

Then why NOT end on that? Be blunt, be honest. I prefer it to this bullshit pussy-footing.

Jesus is a God of love and he loves all of you despite your defaming of his precious name.

Be sure to tell him I'm impressed by his maturity and ability to take some razzing. Not impressed enough to accept your myths about him being the savior of mankind, but slightly more impressed than before now that I know he's being a good sport about the whole thing.

He has extended his slavation to you to except. All man is damned by the fall collectively, even though it was only two of our number that actually ate the fruit. But as we all fell, so are we all saved if you will take it. You would be foolish not to.

It's only foolish if we accept your premise as being true. I don't, so why would I do what you say?