NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry if this has been posted, but I just wanted to let those of you haven't heard yet in on this absolutely wacky story.

You can take your pick of news sites from this list:

http://news.google.com/news?q=mosque+michigan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=N&tab=nn

In short, a town in Michigan has just officially begun allowing a Mosque to broadcast the call to prayer over the entire town, 5 times a day, for 2 minutes at a time.

Umm... hello... ACLU? Where are you guys?

Church bells are one thing, but this is the voice of some guy yelling out "Allah is great" for 10 mintes a day in an audio broadcast over the entire town.

So... the ACLU will pounce on any manger scene on public property... but they couldn't care less about a bunch of guys yelling out a muslim prayer 5 times a day.

Where are they?

Clearly its just a giant anti Jesus conspiricy that we're all in on.





Actually church bells are bad enough on a sunday morning if you live in the wrong place, we don't need more loud noises when I'm hung over...

I think it's a good thing personally. Adds a bit of culture and exoticness to the place (not that I've been there.) Do you not think that church bells might sound like a Christian shouting out "God is great!" to a Muslim? It's just the flipside of the coin.

You guys know very well that if a Christian Church cranked up their speakers and broadcast their sermon to the town, the ACLU would be allll over them.

The ACLU has done/said NOTHING about this.

Why?

I have to put up with a freakin' hour of church bells every Sunday morning and Monday night (dunno why on Monday), I don't see how the ol' Muezzin is any different to church bells.

And I'm sure if the Muslim Imam played his sermon over the air people would be onto him too. however, it is only the call to prayer, which takes, out of a 24-hour day, 10 minutes.

I have to put up with a freakin' hour of church bells every Sunday morning and Monday night (dunno why on Monday), I don't see how the ol' Muezzin is any different to church bells.really? They have that? That would be an issue I would be against as well...

I have to put up with a freakin' hour of church bells every Sunday morning and Monday night (dunno why on Monday), I don't see how the ol' Muezzin is any different to church bells.really? They have that? That would be an issue I would be against as well...

Other than mild annoyance, it doesn't really harm me in any way. If it makes them happy, let them ring their bells. Same with the call to prayer.

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

I spent a summer once in a relatively secular part of the Muslim world. Because the people there were not terribly into their religion, the ezan was especially loud. The worst part was Friday mornings - Friday being the big day for mosque attendance - when the call to prayer came at 4.30 in the morning. I kid you not. The theme for this ezan is "a9-9alaat '7ayru min an-nawm" - "Prayer is better than sleep." Yeah, right.

Many Muslims in the Middle East could care less if they silenced the ezan. I can't imagine that anyone in the US really wants this, Muslim or Christian.

that's funny.

Eh, if I have to listen to Church bells 3 days a week, then I can withstand Islamic call to prayer.

Eh, if I have to listen to Church bells 3 days a week, then I can withstand Islamic call to prayer.Bells are equivelant to a guy screaming a bunch of jibberish that means "allah is great"?

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.

Eh, if I have to listen to Church bells 3 days a week, then I can withstand Islamic call to prayer.Bells are equivelant to a guy screaming a bunch of jibberish that means "allah is great"?

Yes, they are, you intolerant ass.

I'd trade all the missionary weirdo cultists for a little arabic screaming from a megaphone any day.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Eh, if I have to listen to Church bells 3 days a week, then I can withstand Islamic call to prayer.Bells are equivelant to a guy screaming a bunch of jibberish that means "allah is great"?

Yes, they are, you intolerant ass.whoa... ok..

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

Do you have any research of the ACLU trying to prevent a Christian church from broadcasting its sermon to its town?

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

Do you have any research of the ACLU trying to prevent a Christian church from broadcasting its sermon to its town?

Actually, the one they should be silencing should be god... Think about his dirty tactics: He goes and speaks to some wanker and tells him to gather a bunch of people, castrate everyone and take off on hale-bopp. Then he finds someone else, speaks to him, tells him to gather a bunch of people, rape children and shoot policemen... I could go on...but it would take all night...

I wish he'd shut up.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

Do you have any research of the ACLU trying to prevent a Christian church from broadcasting its sermon to its town?Of course not. no one has been stupid enough to try it.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

Do you have any research of the ACLU trying to prevent a Christian church from broadcasting its sermon to its town?Of course not. no one has been stupid enough to try it.

So what you're saying is that you have no basis for your statement that the ACLU would try to prevent a Christian from broadcasting a message over loudspeakers.

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

How is Islam trying to take over the world?

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

How is Islam trying to take over the world?Hey, I didn't say it... Savage did. All I'm saying is that he might be partially right.

Their scriptures say everyone must become islam... and the fact that most of them do not condemn the terrorism is just frightening.

EDIT: *Condemn, used the wrong word

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

How is Islam trying to take over the world?Hey, I didn't say it... Savage did. All I'm saying is that he might be partially right.

Their scriptures say everyone must become islam... and the fact that most of them do not condone the terrorism is just frightening.

I would think that would be heartening.

Sweet Jesus CC, I swear that you get more and more irrational every day. Think about it from the viewpoint of someone not interested all that much in God. Loud clangy bells, jibberish, it's all the same to me. Minor annoyances that I'm willing to put up with so that others can be happy. Why can't you just accept other cultures/religions/lifestyles? Perhaps people aren't going after the muslims so much because they do not dominate the country, or send annoying people door to door trying to convert me.... let them have their loud speakers.

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

How is Islam trying to take over the world?Hey, I didn't say it... Savage did. All I'm saying is that he might be partially right.

Their scriptures say everyone must become islam... and the fact that most of them do not condone the terrorism is just frightening.

I would think that would be heartening.Wrong word. I meant condemn.

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

Are you quite sure, Ray? We have missionaries all over the world preaching various forms of Christianity. What is that about if not trying to take over the world?

Wrong word. I meant condemn.

Ah. I see.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

I dont see the big issue here. Its just a calling and its in Arabic. Does Arabic share the same familiarity as English? So how can people of a different faith be 'surpressed' by something that is understood only (and those who take the effort to learn Arabic) believers of Islam? Can they be 'influenced' into adopting another religion just because of this?? Plus, it only takes a few minutes each time. Given the serious lack of attention people nowadays have, they probably wont even realize theyve been kicked in their ass. So, in simple words, and in my view, you're making a big something out of nothing. Just learn to deal with it and give others a break.

Sweet Jesus CC, I swear that you get more and more irrational every day. Think about it from the viewpoint of someone not interested all that much in God. Loud clangy bells, jibberish, it's all the same to me. Minor annoyances that I'm willing to put up with so that others can be happy. Why can't you just accept other cultures/religions/lifestyles? Perhaps people aren't going after the muslims so much because they do not dominate the country, or send annoying people door to door trying to convert me.... let them have their loud speakers.Allright allright... Like I said, i don't really have a problem with it... i'm just wondering where the ACLU is. But I guess that has been somewhat answered

You guys know very well that if a Christian Church cranked up their speakers and broadcast their sermon to the town, the ACLU would be allll over them.

The ACLU has done/said NOTHING about this.

Why?
Well I dont see how loud and annoying noises are a violation of civil rights. Its an issue for an election, not the ACLU.

You guys know very well that if a Christian Church cranked up their speakers and broadcast their sermon to the town, the ACLU would be allll over them.

The ACLU has done/said NOTHING about this.

Why?
Well I dont see how loud and annoying noises are a violation of civil rights. Its an issue for an election, not the ACLU.

Right. You get one complaint for disturbing the peace and they'll be shut right down. The people will eventually get sick of hearing the mosque.

You guys know very well that if a Christian Church cranked up their speakers and broadcast their sermon to the town, the ACLU would be allll over them.

The ACLU has done/said NOTHING about this.

Why?
Well I dont see how loud and annoying noises are a violation of civil rights. Its an issue for an election, not the ACLU.

Right. You get one complaint for disturbing the peace and they'll be shut right down. The people will eventually get sick of hearing the mosque.good point.

But of course, those calls have come in... that's the point of this thread... the government of that city permitted them to do this... it's legal.

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

Are you quite sure, Ray? We have missionaries all over the world preaching various forms of Christianity. What is that about if not trying to take over the world?

Just in case you missed it, Ray.

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

Are you quite sure, Ray? We have missionaries all over the world preaching various forms of Christianity. What is that about if not trying to take over the world?

Just in case you missed it, Ray.I don't see terrorist missionaries outside of the KKK :P

OK, nm, that's beside the topic :P

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

Are you quite sure, Ray? We have missionaries all over the world preaching various forms of Christianity. What is that about if not trying to take over the world?

Just in case you missed it, Ray.I don't see terrorist missionaries outside of the KKK :P

OK, nm, that's beside the topic :P

So violence is the only way to take something over?

Not that I agree with him on this, but Michael Savage was sure pissed off about this story... but then, he's the type that is convinced that Islam is trying to take over the world.

I'm not too sure he's wrong...

Uhhh...us Christians are trying to take over the world too, right? Was that just a joke?since when? not since like, the dark ages...

Are you quite sure, Ray? We have missionaries all over the world preaching various forms of Christianity. What is that about if not trying to take over the world?

Just in case you missed it, Ray.I don't see terrorist missionaries outside of the KKK :P

OK, nm, that's beside the topic :P

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

If you are concerned with tolerance towards Christianity, the place to start is not by questioning tolerance towards other religions. Find me an example of your rights as a Christian being violating, and then complain.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.Again... you know that if some guy broadcasted his sermon over the city for 10 minutes a day, the ACLU would be all over him.

Is this where we hear about the worldwide conspiracy to suppress Christianity?No, merely where I ask why we should be tolerant of some religions, and intolerant of others...

If you are concerned with tolerance towards Christianity, the place to start is not by questioning tolerance towards other religions. Find me an example of your rights as a Christian being violating, and then complain.Oh, being a Mormon, I could easily name several... I've discussed them on this board as well, and it wound up with no one caring

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion. Displays of particular religious beliefs on government grounds can lead people to believe that the government is endorsing that religion to the exclusion of others. But to say that it is legal for me to use a loudspeaker to play music at my BBQ or to announce the beginning of a roadrace but not for a mosque to broadcast the call to prayer is akin to saying I'm not allowed to speak about religion in a public place. Part of the point of the second amendment is to ensure that religious speech is not treated differently--not that it's always been applied properly I grant you. I don't think 10 minutes a day is really an imposition of religious beliefs.

Umm... Wrong amendment. The 2nd Amendment is the right to bear arms, the one you're looking for is the 1st Amendment.

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Christians have the mission that "our religion is the correct religion, and we must share this divine fact with everyone, whether or not they want it".

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Christians have the mission that "our religion is the correct religion, and we must share this divine fact with everyone, whether or not they want it".Umm... ok, yeah, in that case, I'm glad I'm a mormon :P

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Christians have the mission that "our religion is the correct religion, and we must share this divine fact with everyone, whether or not they want it".Umm... ok, yeah, in that case, I'm glad I'm a mormon :P

Yeah, because Mormons never go around preaching their religion to people who don't want to hear about it.

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Christians have the mission that "our religion is the correct religion, and we must share this divine fact with everyone, whether or not they want it".Umm... ok, yeah, in that case, I'm glad I'm a mormon :P

Yeah, because Mormons never go around preaching their religion to people who don't want to hear about it.Was that sarcasm? because you speak the truth... We go away when you ask us to :P

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Christians have the mission that "our religion is the correct religion, and we must share this divine fact with everyone, whether or not they want it".Umm... ok, yeah, in that case, I'm glad I'm a mormon :P

Yeah, because Mormons never go around preaching their religion to people who don't want to hear about it.Was that sarcasm? because you speak the truth... We go away when you ask us to :P

Only to return later and harass the dead...

A church is a church no matter what you call it.

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Are a majority of Muslims constantly trying to convert people to Islam?

Based on my experience with my Muslim friends and acquaintances, I would have to say no. I've never heard a Muslim do more than defend his/her faith. Yeah, there are Muslim extremists, but are they proportionally more prevalent than Christian extremists?

I'm not trying to bash you or invalidate you, Ray. I just want you to think about your own religion (Christianity) critically.

Only to return later and harass the dead...

Speaking of which, Raysia, do you have the link for that database of people that the LDS has baptized? I want to show a friend of mine.

Only to return later and harass the dead...

Speaking of which, Raysia, do you have the link for that database of people that the LDS has baptized? I want to show a friend of mine.I don't know of any online. There are geneaological databases, but i don't think it says who has been baptized.

Praps we could get the call to prayer (Mus, Chri, any Relig) texted?

Only to return later and harass the dead...

Speaking of which, Raysia, do you have the link for that database of people that the LDS has baptized? I want to show a friend of mine.I don't know of any online. here are geneaological databases, but i don't think it says who has been baptized.

Dang. Oh well. Thanks.

Do you have any research of the ACLU trying to prevent a Christian church from broadcasting its sermon to its town?Of course not. no one has been stupid enough to try it.
Please. Aside from my hometown flooding the mormon settlement to build a damn, you've got nothing. I've had to put up with tie wearing bicyclists not coming just once, but over and over again. I've been awaken at 9AM on my Saturday off to the sounds of a christian rock band playing on a flatbed in my court. Christians are yapping everywhere, the only time anyone complains is when they do something like try to place the Ten Commandments in a court house that is supposed to be a fair place for all americans.

What strikes me as interesting Conservatives seem to blame the minorities for playing the victim and with the next breath complain that thier dominant culture is being oppressed.

C'mon, Ray-we have a president who feels he was apointed by God. The last George that thought that wore a crown. Don't try to sell us on the notion that christians are in any way oppressed in this country. Don't play the victim.

The mosque is broadcasting the prayer, not the state or a state agency. Therefore it is not an issue of church and state, nor is it an issue of civil liberties. Churchbells are a call to prayer.

hmmmmmmmmm....i would like to think that people would have other things to complain about other than mosque callings and church bells...no? or should we debate silly issues like this when people could easily put the same effort into much weightier issues...

When was the last time you heard church bells ringing to call people to prayer, a wedding, or a funeral? The last time I saw a functional church bell, rung with a rope, was years ago at my ex-girlfriend's collegetown church up in the hills, and the congregation never even used it in an official capacity. Mostly the kids would ring it for kicks. ~ Michael.

When was the last time you heard church bells ringing to call people to prayer, a wedding, or a funeral? The last time I saw a functional church bell, rung with a rope, was years ago at my ex-girlfriend's collegetown church up in the hills, and the congregation never even used it in an official capacity. Mostly the kids would ring it for kicks. ~ Michael.
Last three towns I've lived in all had churches with bells they used. The last had speakers that acted as bells and where piercing when you drove by during a wedding.

When was the last time you heard church bells ringing to call people to prayer, a wedding, or a funeral? The last time I saw a functional church bell, rung with a rope, was years ago at my ex-girlfriend's collegetown church up in the hills, and the congregation never even used it in an official capacity. Mostly the kids would ring it for kicks. ~ Michael.

Two of the churches in my town use the bells to announce the start of every mass. Since the masses usually start on half hours, we'll hear the hourly bells, then a half hour later the bells to announce mass, then the next hourly bells. And since the churches clocks are apparently off by a few minutes, we'll get two sets of bells a minute or two off every half hour all Sunday morning. It's quite annoying.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.

But the mosque isn't specifically denouncing Christianity like that. If you wanted to broadcast your own sermon every day, it would be your right to.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.But the mosque isn't specifically denouncing Christianity like that. If you wanted to broadcast your own sermon every day, it would be your right to.But the prayer says there is only one god, Allah. Allah is not the same as my God. ~ Michael.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.
Well, first of all-I guess we're pretending that christian churches don't run ads in the local media, or buy air time on sunday mornings?

Okay, then your ad is inciting against a specific belief. Your bad. The call to prayer for the Muslims has no more malice then your bells. (regardless of wether or not your town uses the bells, there is still precident(however that's spelled)) There is, however, a directed malice in your ad.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.But the mosque isn't specifically denouncing Christianity like that. If you wanted to broadcast your own sermon every day, it would be your right to.But the prayer says there is only one god, Allah. Allah is not the same as my God. ~ Michael.

But it isn't specifying that your God isn't the correct God the way that your statement does. It isn't targetting a specific religion as being wrong, it's just saying it is right. If you wanted to print the 1st commandment, that'd be okay, because it doesn't specifically say "Religion X is wrong; we are right", it just says "We are right".

Forcible conversions are anathema to Islam. This is a fact. Even if they have happened in the past (and continue to happen today) they are explicitly condemned in all four of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence. One can't be forced to say "I'm a Muslim" and then *poof* become a Muslim - it doesn't work that way.

I don't know where Michael "Savage" Weiner or any of you guys have found the idea that "everyone must become Muslim." I suspect that this is merely projection - if you were to actually read what the Qur'an and the 7awaadith say about Islam, you'd know that's not true. As a child, I was always told that, in the end times, the gospel of Christ would be preached in all languages and to all nations; that sounds rather expansionist to me. Fortunately for us, we have missionaries all over the world working to immanetize the eschaton.

Muslims divide the world into two realms - Dar ul-Islam (the realm of "peace") and Dar ul-7arb (the realm of war). The goal of some extreme militant Islamists (and by no means all of them) is to extend the realm of peace across the face of the world and stamp out war. Within Dar ul-Islam, all monotheistic religions (particularly those from the same tradition as Islam, namely Christianity and Judaism) are guaranteed equality, freedom of worship and freedom from oppression. Muslims, on the other hand, are given a few "special" rights - freedom from a certain type of tax, fewer witnesses needed in court, etc. - of the sort that any government gives to groups it has a vested interest in promoting. We do this sort of thing ourselves. Several states in the US, for example, (including Massachusetts and Texas) require members of government to give proof of their religious faith before they can hold office.

Now I'm not a Muslim - but it's clear to me that it's seriously bad karma to go around spreading lies and misinformation about somebody else's religion.

Forcible conversions are anathema to Islam. This is a fact. Even if they have happened in the past (and continue to happen today) they are explicitly condemned in all four of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence. One can't be forced to say "I'm a Muslim" and then *poof* become a Muslim - it doesn't work that way.

I don't know where Michael "Savage" Weiner or any of you guys have found the idea that "everyone must become Muslim." I suspect that this is merely projection - if you were to actually read what the Qur'an and the 7awaadith say about Islam, you'd know that's not true. As a child, I was always told that, in the end times, the gospel of Christ would be preached in all languages and to all nations; that sounds rather expansionist to me. Fortunately for us, we have missionaries all over the world working to immanetize the eschaton.

Muslims divide the world into two realms - Dar ul-Islam (the realm of "peace") and Dar ul-7arb (the realm of war). The goal of some extreme militant Islamists (and by no means all of them) is to extend the realm of peace across the face of the world and stamp out war. Within Dar ul-Islam, all monotheistic religions (particularly those from the same tradition as Islam, namely Christianity and Judaism) are guaranteed equality, freedom of worship and freedom from oppression. Muslims, on the other hand, are given a few "special" rights - freedom from a certain type of tax, fewer witnesses needed in court, etc. - of the sort that any government gives to groups it has a vested interest in promoting. We do this sort of thing ourselves. Several states in the US, for example, (including Massachusetts and Texas) require members of government to give proof of their religious faith before they can hold office.

Now I'm not a Muslim - but it's clear to me that it's seriously bad karma to go around spreading lies and misinformation about somebody else's religion.I wonder how much of this you could repeat before a radical Muslim slits your throat for being an infidel? ~ Michael.

Do you know what Michael? Give up. Even Raysia gave up on this one. You come off as an intolerant, close minded bigot every time you post. Churches constantly broadcast sermons on television, why can't this mosque broacast theirs?

Do you know what Michael? Give up. Even Raysia gave up on this one. You come off as an intolerant, close minded bigot every time you post. Churches constantly broadcast sermons on television, why can't this mosque broacast theirs?I never said it couldn't. In fact, if I lived in the town, it wouldn't bother me much as a supporter of political freedom. Of course, it bothers me as a Christian. But then, as a supporter of political freedom and a believer in the Word of God, I might step up in-your-face presentations of the Gospel. For example, I might try to take out the newspaper ad, in which I say there is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son. I would include in the ad Scriptures and a spiel about freedom of religion, speech, and the press. Such an advertisement would be protested adamantly by Muslims, and I would probably get death threats, and CAIR might want me prosecuted for hate speech.

And that, of course, would all be part of my little plan. :twisted: My little plan to show that Muslims by-and-large, or at least their clerics, are not peace-loving people tolerant of other religions, and that they despise free speech and freedom of the press, and would take it away from us if they had the chance.

I have no illusions about many Christians, though. I think plenty of right-wing Christians would be just as willing to squash other religions, free speech, and a free press. But plenty of left-wing people already point that out. Who is going to point out that Islam implemented by your unfriendly neighborhood cleric leads to the same result? ~ Michael.

Do you know what Michael? Give up. Even Raysia gave up on this one. You come off as an intolerant, close minded bigot every time you post. Churches constantly broadcast sermons on television, why can't this mosque broacast theirs?I never said it couldn't. In fact, if I lived in the town, it wouldn't bother me much as a supporter of political freedom. Of course, it bothers me as a Christian. But then, as a supporter of political freedom and a believer in the Word of God, I might step up in-your-face presentations of the Gospel. For example, I might try to take out the newspaper ad, in which I say there is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son. I would include in the ad Scriptures and a spiel about freedom of religion, speech, and the press. Such an advertisement would be protested adamantly by Muslims, and I would probably get death threats, and CAIR might want me prosecuted for hate speech.

And that, of course, would all be part of my little plan. :twisted: My little plan to show that Muslims by-and-large, or at least their clerics, are not peace-loving people tolerant of other religions, and that they despise free speech and freedom of the press, and would take it away from us if they had the chance.

I have no illusions about many Christians, though. I think plenty of right-wing Christians would be just as willing to squash other religions, free speech, and a free press. But plenty of left-wing people already point that out. Who is going to point out that Islam implemented by your unfriendly neighborhood cleric leads to the same result? ~ Michael.

I bet most muslims living in The US or Canada are peace loving and tolerant of other religions - why else would they live here? You can't make such broad generalizations like that. Every single person on this planet is different.

As long as the citizens don't really mind it, go ahead.
Personally, I prefer bells to some guy shouting stuff I don't understand.

I bet most muslims living in The US or Canada are peace loving and tolerant of other religions - why else would they live here? You can't make such broad generalizations like that. Every single person on this planet is different.Yes, you say, "I bet," but it is a bet, and one you might lose. Muslims may move here for greater political and economic freedom, but they vote themselves into office -- Muslims are on the town's council -- and will proceed to turn, first their neighborhoods, and then more and more areas into Muslim enclaves, through immigration and high birth rates. Some European Muslim organizations have repeatedly claimed that their purpose is to turn Europe to Islam. How? When was the last time a Muslim told you to convert through any kind of persuasive conversation (e.g., evangelism)? They intend to Islamicize free nations through the political process and, ultimately, by force. ~ Michael.

I wonder how much of this you could repeat before a radical Muslim slits your throat for being an infidel? ~ Michael.

Ahh... I was wondering when Mr. Straw Man was going to make an appearance.

You know what? I've met those radical Muslims, of whom you're so terrified. I've bearded the lion in his den, going to visit officials from Hezbollah in a small predominantly Shiite neighborhood of South Beirut. I took a tour of the areas of Lebanon that they recently "liberated" from the Israelis. I made it very clear that I was a Christian and an American. When they asked me what Americans thought of Hezbollah, I told them the truth. And I'm alive to tell the tale. My throat is intact.

The fact of the matter is that even the most radical Muslims are human beings - they may demonize their opponents and behave in an inhuman manner at times, but such behavior is not limited to Islam, I can promise you that. Painting them all as terrorists and "evildoers" is not only contrary to reality, but it makes you sound like a nut job. It's on a par with the claim that Jews have horns and Russians have tails. I've been there and I know what you're saying isn't true.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.

Actually, in the wake of Mel Gibson's rewrite of the Bible The Passion Of The Christ, many newspapers now have exactly this ad in them.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.Actually, in the wake of Mel Gibson's rewrite of the Bible The Passion Of The Christ, many newspapers now have exactly this ad in them.Really? Give me the name of a newspaper where you saw this ad. I might buy a copy, cut out the ad, and tape it to my refrigerator. ~ Michael.

I bet most muslims living in The US or Canada are peace loving and tolerant of other religions - why else would they live here? You can't make such broad generalizations like that. Every single person on this planet is different.Yes, you say, "I bet," but it is a bet, and one you might lose. Muslims may move here for greater political and economic freedom, but they vote themselves into office -- Muslims are on the town's council -- and will proceed to turn, first their neighborhoods, and then more and more areas into Muslim enclaves, through immigration and high birth rates. Some European Muslim organizations have repeatedly claimed that their purpose is to turn Europe to Islam. How? When was the last time a Muslim told you to convert through any kind of persuasive conversation (e.g., evangelism)? They intend to Islamicize free nations through the political process and, ultimately, by force. ~ Michael.

OH MI GAWD! IT'S THE NEW RED MENACE!

Seriously, dude, perhaps you should explore perscription drugs under the guidance of a psychologist to help you with this rampant paranoia. Exactly where are Muslims overrunning the local elected official boards? Until you can show me trends, this is blatant bigotry.

Muslims may move here for greater political and economic freedom, but they vote themselves into office -- Muslims are on the town's council -- and will proceed to turn, first their neighborhoods, and then more and more areas into Muslim enclaves, through immigration and high birth rates. Some European Muslim organizations have repeatedly claimed that their purpose is to turn Europe to Islam. How? When was the last time a Muslim told you to convert through any kind of persuasive conversation (e.g., evangelism)? They intend to Islamicize free nations through the political process and, ultimately, by force. ~ Michael.

Again, more straw men. "Some European Muslim organizations...." hmpf. Excuse me if I'm not quaking in my boots. How is this claim any different from the stated claim of Christian missionary organizations active - all over the world - to convert people to Christianity? Why is it that we are not accusing them of trying to impose Christianity through politics and ultimately by force?

If you look at the regions of the world where Islam has succeeded, it is quite obvious that they were characterized by ethnic and religious strife before Islam moved in on the scene. The Middle East was a battle ground between Orthodox Byzantines and Zoroastrian Sassanians, with most other sects being caught in the middle, and persecuted. North Africa was a battleground between Catholics, Donatists, and pagans. The majority of people in India were oppressed by the caste system. Islam offered a way for people in all of these regions to escape the cycle of war and oppression. That is why people converted in droves.

This is also why Europe will never become Muslim. There is no reason for people to convert to Islam in Europe. The same people who convert to Islam today are the people who, a generation ago, would have converted to Bahai or Buddhism. They're a small minority of people who can't find a home in their own religion, and there will always be people like them.

What do you think would happen if I ran an ad in the local newspaper in that town (if the paper would allow me) or if I posted flyers all over town that read:

"There is one God. His name is not Allah. Mohammed is not His prophet. Jesus Christ is His Son."

Would this be considered intolerance or just my refutation of a broadcasted prayer I find offensive? ~ Michael.Actually, in the wake of Mel Gibson's rewrite of the Bible The Passion Of The Christ, many newspapers now have exactly this ad in them.Really? Give me the name of a newspaper where you saw this ad. I might buy a copy, cut out the ad, and tape it to my refrigerator. ~ Michael.

Kansas City Star, April 23rd edition. Preview Section (arts and entertainment. Have fun with that.

I bet most muslims living in The US or Canada are peace loving and tolerant of other religions - why else would they live here? You can't make such broad generalizations like that. Every single person on this planet is different.Yes, you say, "I bet," but it is a bet, and one you might lose. Muslims may move here for greater political and economic freedom, but they vote themselves into office -- Muslims are on the town's council -- and will proceed to turn, first their neighborhoods, and then more and more areas into Muslim enclaves, through immigration and high birth rates. Some European Muslim organizations have repeatedly claimed that their purpose is to turn Europe to Islam. How? When was the last time a Muslim told you to convert through any kind of persuasive conversation (e.g., evangelism)? They intend to Islamicize free nations through the political process and, ultimately, by force. ~ Michael.

Now substitute 'Muslims" for "Blacks" and it's like we're in a time warp!
B I G O T

Sing it with me!
"let's do the time warp again!"

Muslims may move here for greater political and economic freedom, but they vote themselves into office -- Muslims are on the town's council -- and will proceed to turn, first their neighborhoods, and then more and more areas into Muslim enclaves, through immigration and high birth rates. Some European Muslim organizations have repeatedly claimed that their purpose is to turn Europe to Islam. How? When was the last time a Muslim told you to convert through any kind of persuasive conversation (e.g., evangelism)? They intend to Islamicize free nations through the political process and, ultimately, by force. ~ Michael.Again, more straw men. "Some European Muslim organizations...." hmpf. Excuse me if I'm not quaking in my boots. How is this claim any different from the stated claim of Christian missionary organizations active - all over the world - to convert people to Christianity? Why is it that we are not accusing them of trying to impose Christianity through politics and ultimately by force?I think many Christians want Christianity imposed and to have anything immoral suppressed. But just because I think that of Christians, of whom I number, I have to keep my mouth shut about Muslims? Whatever. ~ Michael.

Muslims may move here for greater political and economic freedom, but they vote themselves into office -- Muslims are on the town's council -- and will proceed to turn, first their neighborhoods, and then more and more areas into Muslim enclaves, through immigration and high birth rates. Some European Muslim organizations have repeatedly claimed that their purpose is to turn Europe to Islam. How? When was the last time a Muslim told you to convert through any kind of persuasive conversation (e.g., evangelism)? They intend to Islamicize free nations through the political process and, ultimately, by force. ~ Michael.Again, more straw men. "Some European Muslim organizations...." hmpf. Excuse me if I'm not quaking in my boots. How is this claim any different from the stated claim of Christian missionary organizations active - all over the world - to convert people to Christianity? Why is it that we are not accusing them of trying to impose Christianity through politics and ultimately by force?I think many Christians want Christianity imposed and to have anything immoral suppressed. But just because I think that of Christians, of whom I number, I have to keep my mouth shut about Muslims? Whatever. ~ Michael.

No, you have to keep your mouth shut when all you can offer is blind, ignorant and, frankly, stupid bigotry. I put up my cite. I can find you more. Where are yours?

Actually, in the wake of Mel Gibson's rewrite of the Bible The Passion Of The Christ, many newspapers now have exactly this ad in them.

You know, it's funny, but the Passion has been a blockbuster in the Middle East. Devout Muslims who see the film often exit the theaters in tears.

I have a friend in Nabatiyya who saw the film and told me that he understood 50-60% of the dialogue - because it was so close to Arabic.

The editorials I've seen mostly deal with the protests that the film generated. They generally conclude "but the Bible says that the Jews killed Jesus. That's the truth. The ADL can't deny that!"

Sorry if this has been posted, but I just wanted to let those of you haven't heard yet in on this absolutely wacky story.

You can take your pick of news sites from this list:

http://news.google.com/news?q=mosque+michigan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=N&tab=nn

In short, a town in Michigan has just officially begun allowing a Mosque to broadcast the call to prayer over the entire town, 5 times a day, for 2 minutes at a time.

Umm... hello... ACLU? Where are you guys?

Church bells are one thing, but this is the voice of some guy yelling out "Allah is great" for 10 mintes a day in an audio broadcast over the entire town.

So... the ACLU will pounce on any manger scene on public property... but they couldn't care less about a bunch of guys yelling out a muslim prayer 5 times a day.

Where are they?

They have Just as much right to thier faith as you do and as I have my right to lack of faith.

Jim

Eh, if I have to listen to Church bells 3 days a week, then I can withstand Islamic call to prayer.
Bells are equivelant to a guy screaming a bunch of jibberish that means "allah is great"?
Why, yes, of course. :?

From an article in The Washington Times from 4/4/04:

"NeedHim Ministries in Dallas has created radio ads that invite people who have questions about the movie to call a hot line to talk about beginning "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."

Now, isn't this the exact same thing that the radio station is doing for the Muslims? If we're all so upset with the ACLU not attacking that, they why are we not equally clammoring for them to go after this?

I see through some of the ruses right-wing Christians use in the short-term to try to get what they want in the long-term. Some time ago, I read or heard an interview in which the leader of a Christian legal defense group was talking about the measures needed to be taken in order to rid the Internet and other sources of child pornography. But I could hear between the lines, how the man talked and so forth, that the final target was to use child porn as the vehicle to ban all pornography everywhere. I hate tactics like that. I prefer just being openly honest. I hate porn. But I like political freedom. I would rather preach to porn stars so that they accept Jesus than to ban their line of work, and they end up in Hell, because a more outwardly "moral" society deceives people into thinking they are "good enough" to get into heaven without saving faith in Jesus Christ. ~ Michael.

I see through some of the ruses right-wing Christians use in the short-term to try to get what they want in the long-term. Some time ago, I read or heard an interview in which the leader of a Christian legal defense group was talking about the measures needed to be taken in order to rid the Internet and other sources of child pornography. But I could hear between the lines, how the man talked and so forth, that the final target was to use child porn as the vehicle to ban all pornography everywhere. I hate tactics like that. I prefer just being openly honest. I hate porn. But I like political freedom. I would rather preach to porn stars so that they accept Jesus than to ban their line of work, and they end up in Hell, because a more outwardly "moral" society deceives people into thinking they are "good enough" to get into heaven without saving faith in Jesus Christ. ~ Michael.

That's a good, fair and honest attitude. Now why are you willing to flush it away with this infuriating rhetoric about some vast Islamic conspiracy?

I think many Christians want Christianity imposed and to have anything immoral suppressed. But just because I think that of Christians, of whom I number, I have to keep my mouth shut about Muslims? Whatever. ~ Michael.

I never said that you had to keep your mouth shut about Muslims. Obviously you're entitled to your own opinons and welcome to voice them as such. However, I'd suggest you think twice before spreading lies and misinformation about any topic - especially one as sensitive as another person's religion.

If I went around saying that Christians want to turn America into a Taleban-esque "Christian" state and force everyone to convert to Christianity, you'd call me on it, wouldn't you?

Meh, I don't care if they air some crazy language most people in my country don't speak. Hell, they could be saying "You are an idiot" and I wouldn't care. I can't speak Arabic.

As for churchbells....my own church, which has bells, uses them and they are not very loud. As for ads on TV, newspapers, etc., us Christians of all types use them. Here there is a parallel.

Neither of these are state run, they are both publicly available, and they both might be not liked by other religions. Personaly, I care not because I pay so little attentioon to ads.

As for door-to-door people, they are anoying. As a Catholic, when we first moved here, some people came to our house to try to 'convert' us to Christianity. We kindly told them we were Catholics, then they came back later. We still recieve occasional letters in the mail asking us to go to thier church

The only beef I have with Muslims is the Turkish defiling of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople/Istanbul and converting it, and all other great churches of the city, into mosques.

From an article in The Washington Times from 4/4/04:

"NeedHim Ministries in Dallas has created radio ads that invite people who have questions about the movie to call a hot line to talk about beginning "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."

Now, isn't this the exact same thing that the radio station is doing for the Muslims? If we're all so upset with the ACLU not attacking that, they why are we not equally clammoring for them to go after this?You can turn off your radio. You can't turn off the loudspeakers on the mosque -- not legally, anyway. Noise ordinances are supposed to apply to things such as loud car radios and such. But in many communities in America, it is perfectly legal for you, without a permit, to set up a loudspeaker and broadcast a religious or political or any other kind of message, right out in public! (There may be some restrictions on commercial messages, though. Commercial and non-commercial speech have many differentiations in the law.) But most people, including preachers, never bother to set up the loudspeakers. It's been done before, though. I've been to religious meetings where a person far away can hear the music, the sermon, the prayers, the altar call, and anything else spoken through the microphone. Isn't America great? :) ~ Michael.

I see through some of the ruses right-wing Christians use in the short-term to try to get what they want in the long-term. Some time ago, I read or heard an interview in which the leader of a Christian legal defense group was talking about the measures needed to be taken in order to rid the Internet and other sources of child pornography. But I could hear between the lines, how the man talked and so forth, that the final target was to use child porn as the vehicle to ban all pornography everywhere. I hate tactics like that. I prefer just being openly honest. I hate porn. But I like political freedom. I would rather preach to porn stars so that they accept Jesus than to ban their line of work, and they end up in Hell, because a more outwardly "moral" society deceives people into thinking they are "good enough" to get into heaven without saving faith in Jesus Christ. ~ Michael.That's a good, fair and honest attitude. Now why are you willing to flush it away with this infuriating rhetoric about some vast Islamic conspiracy?Because I have the same good, fair, and honest attitude about Muslims who use short-term plans, such as voting Muslims into office, for long-term purposes -- the Islamicization of America. Does it bother you that openly pious and devout Christians George Bush and John Ashcroft hold office in America? It bothers me only insofar that I do not want my religion forced on you by the government. I prefer the free exchange of ideas, in which I can proselytize without being fined or put in jail. ~ Michael.

I see through some of the ruses right-wing Christians use in the short-term to try to get what they want in the long-term. Some time ago, I read or heard an interview in which the leader of a Christian legal defense group was talking about the measures needed to be taken in order to rid the Internet and other sources of child pornography. But I could hear between the lines, how the man talked and so forth, that the final target was to use child porn as the vehicle to ban all pornography everywhere. I hate tactics like that. I prefer just being openly honest. I hate porn. But I like political freedom. I would rather preach to porn stars so that they accept Jesus than to ban their line of work, and they end up in Hell, because a more outwardly "moral" society deceives people into thinking they are "good enough" to get into heaven without saving faith in Jesus Christ. ~ Michael.That's a good, fair and honest attitude. Now why are you willing to flush it away with this infuriating rhetoric about some vast Islamic conspiracy?Because I have the same good, fair, and honest attitude about Muslims who use short-term plans, such as voting Muslims into office, for long-term purposes -- the Islamicization of America. Does it bother you that openly pious and devout Christians George Bush and John Ashcroft hold office in America? It bothers me only insofar that I do not want my religion forced on you by the government. I prefer the free exchange of ideas, in which I can proselytize without being fined or put in jail. ~ Michael.

But part and parcle with that idea of freedom comes the responsibility of tolerance. I may not agree with the teachings of Islam nor be a Muslim. However, to think that they are somehow trying to subvert our country by running for the local school board is sheer paranoia and the exact kind of breach of liberty that we should be vigilant for. If a Islamic candidate runs in the election and is voted into office, then there is obvious support for him or her. That is the price of democracy. You can then do all in your power to see that candidate is not reelected, but you can not make a claim that they are building a power base of faith any more than you can claim that Ashcroft and Bush being in office is just as bad. To this point, there has been no foisting of Islamic religious values on US society due to an unfair representation of elected officials. In fact, there has been quite the opposite.

I'll make you an agreement. I will support your idea that Islamic candidates should not hold office for the sole reason of their faith if you'll loudly and aggressively work against Bush being reelected and Ashcroft serving in our government on the sole basis that they hold an evangelical Christian faith.

I'll make you an agreement. I will support your idea that Islamic candidates should not hold office for the sole reason of their faith if you'll loudly and aggressively work against Bush being reelected and Ashcroft serving in our government on the sole basis that they hold an evangelical Christian faith.NEVER! :lol: Besides, I'm not against religious people holding office, as long as they do not impose their values on us through coercion. Persuasion is not the same as coercion. ~ Michael.

I'll make you an agreement. I will support your idea that Islamic candidates should not hold office for the sole reason of their faith if you'll loudly and aggressively work against Bush being reelected and Ashcroft serving in our government on the sole basis that they hold an evangelical Christian faith.NEVER! :lol: Besides, I'm not against religious people holding office, as long as they do not impose their values on us through coercion. Persuasion is not the same as coercion. ~ Michael.

It is when it comes with a Presidential mandate attached to it.

Even still, you haven't shown any reason to believe that:

a) Islamic candidates are suddenly winning wide-spread support in previously non-Islamic constituencies.

b) Islamic candidates in officer are any more likely to use their power to coerce radical changes of common law to align with their spiritual tradition than Christians currently in office do.

c) There is any reason to believe that Islamic candidates are somehow more connected than Christian candidates and represent the tip of a totalitarian Islamic movement designed to bring about change through election.

Until you can back up any of these statements, your comments are still simply the most common form of bigotry, fear of what's different.

The only beef I have with Muslims is the Turkish defiling of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople/Istanbul and converting it, and all other great churches of the city, into mosques.
That's not true. The Turks only converted the churches of those quarters of the city that put up an armed resistance against the occupiers. Some of the best churches of Constantinople remain churches to this day - you can still visit them.

Mehmet Fatih (the conqueror) was an intellectual and was very fond of Christianity. One of his first motions as emperor, after moving the capital of his empire to Constantinople, was to put Greek and Ottoman on equal footing as the languages of his empire. A large portion of his army was composed of disaffected Christians, and an even larger number of his advisors were drawn from the same group.

I think that it was a great loss for Christianity when the Haghia Sophia became a mosque but not defiling in the strictest sense - otherwise you would have to claim that the Christians, who converted many pagan temples into churches (the Pantheon, for example), were engaging in the same sort of behavior. For me, "defiling" implies destroying a sacred place, not conserving it under a new name. Look at the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus - it started out as a temple to Haddad, then the Romans turned it into a temple to Jupiter, then the Christians converted it into a basilica, and finally it became a mosque. The same thing happened to Luxor Temple and Philae Temple in Egypt. By respecting the sacred nature of these places, the new religion recognizes its dependence on the old.

First of all, every Islamic nation on earth oppresses its citizens, violates human rights, denies civil rights, and mostly seems to look the other way when schools and camps pop up that train terrorists. Maybe it's just me, but if the democratic process leads one day to Muslim majority rule -- based on people who actually vote, not the people who can vote and do not -- then why should I expect something different than the imposition of Sharia law? ~ Michael.

Why would we need terrorist missionaries to take over the world? I think we've been very successful in taking over large portions of the world without terrorists. We've had some terrorists, but they really aren't that effective at converting people to our Way of Peace.

I really don't care if it's off topic. The original discussion fizzled out a few minutes ago. Why waste a perfectly good thread?The thing is... Christians have a mission that says "we need to save as many as will come," while islam has the mission that says "everyone must be islam."

Christians have the mission that "our religion is the correct religion, and we must share this divine fact with everyone, whether or not they want it".Umm... ok, yeah, in that case, I'm glad I'm a mormon :P

Yeah, because Mormons never go around preaching their religion to people who don't want to hear about it.Was that sarcasm? because you speak the truth... We go away when you ask us to :P

A little personal story of my own.. The Mormons are always giving their "Book of Mormon" away for free to any one who will take it. So, I went to their website some time back because I decided I wanted to read it. I'm an atheist, but I am an atheist because I'm informed. Any way, the point being, I put my name in to be sent the book so I could read it. On the form, it clearly said, do you wish to be contacted locally after a few weeks YES or NO... well all I wanted to do was read the book, so I checked NO... Thus no one was suppose to contact me. Well you guessed it, if those folks didn't try and ruin my Sunday morning every week end for nearly 6 months. Calling and coming to my door, you name it. I kept telling them to not come back I wasn't interested.. they wouldn't listen. I finally told them if they didn't leave me alone I was going to take legal action. So far since then they have left me alone (knock wood) So, no, they don't leave you alone when you ask them to.

As for the subject of the thread..I agree with the people who have said the loud church bells ringing are the same as the call to prayer, they stand for the exact same thing.. both are used to call people to worship whatever the faith. Just because one does it a little different then the other.. makes no difference the end result is still the same. If you want to ban one, then both should be banned or neither.

First of all, every Islamic nation on earth oppresses its citizens, violates human rights, denies civil rights, and mostly seems to look the other way when schools and camps pop up that train terrorists.

This can be said just about every nation on Earth, not just the Islamic ones. The United States not only oppresses it's own citizens, but has now started exporting that oppression to other countries. We also violate human rights (one of the bigger violators on Amnesty International's list, actuallY) and deny civil rights (I won't mention gay marriage, but I will point out the Patriot Act and McCarthyisim). Again, this is a function of power, not religion.


Maybe it's just me, but if the democratic process leads one day to Muslim majority rule -- based on people who actually vote, not the people who can vote and do not -- then why should I expect something different than the imposition of Sharia law? ~ Michael.

Who knows, but why should you? You're making huge suppositions here and passing them off as fact. First of all, if the democratic process leads to an Islamic United States (which I do not see happening any time soon) then that is what the democratic process is for. Obviously those who cared enough to vote got out and did and, thus, have exercised the form of control the people exert in this country. If you don't want to see that happen, feel free to campaign against openly Muslim candidates. People campaigned against JFK because he was Catholic, so there's precedent. What you can't do is succumb to blatant bigotry and ignorance because that is truly the death of every principle the United States was founded on.

First of all, every Islamic nation on earth oppresses its citizens, violates human rights, denies civil rights, and mostly seems to look the other way when schools and camps pop up that train terrorists. Maybe it's just me, but if the democratic process leads one day to Muslim majority rule -- based on people who actually vote, not the people who can vote and do not -- then why should I expect something different than the imposition of Sharia law? ~ Michael.
Which "Islamic" nations are we talking about? Saudi Arabia, Iran, a few provinces in northern Nigeria, and Afghanistan before the invasion? Do you even know how many muslim countries have sharia instead of some civil code borrowed from the French or the British? (Hint: you can count them on the fingers of one hand, provided that hand hasn't been chopped off for theft). The vast, overwhelming majority of Muslims don't want sharia anymore than you do.

If a Muslim majority necessarily results in Islamic government, and the imposition of Sharia, how do you explain Turkey? Turkey is 96% Muslim and one of the only democracies in the Middle East. They are so democratic that they have recently allowed a moderate Islamic party - the Welfare Party - to take control of the government - and yet I'm still waiting for compulsory beards and headscarves to make a comeback.

On the other hand, many muslims do want their laws regarding certain religious and cultural issues - e.g. marriage, divorce, sodomy, childbearing, etc. - to be informed by their religion. How is this in any way different from the Christians in the US?

Ireland's laws are strongly influenced by its Catholic religion, and it tends to turn a blind eye to the actions of the IRA. China fits nearly every category you described above, and yet its government espouses no religion whatsoever. I'd also note that, historically speaking, fundamentalist Christian movements haven't been much better. Look at the Taiping rebellion, for example, or the civil war in Uganda.

I'll make you an agreement. I will support your idea that Islamic candidates should not hold office for the sole reason of their faith if you'll loudly and aggressively work against Bush being reelected and Ashcroft serving in our government on the sole basis that they hold an evangelical Christian faith.NEVER! :lol: Besides, I'm not against religious people holding office, as long as they do not impose their values on us through coercion. Persuasion is not the same as coercion. ~ Michael.
Well then, what about the more immediate threat of christian churches rallying to get their members on school boards to alter the way children are taught to reflect christian ideals (i.e. taking out evolution, etc.). That's not some shadow conspiracy, thats happened and happening right now. Clearly evident. Where is your saber rattle for that? Normally I don't go for this argument, but in this case it does speak to the truth of the complaintant. If your concern is really about not wanting people with a religous agenda working thier way into politics, then there is already a fight going. But it's with christians. That doesn't make a difference, right?

I'll make you an agreement. I will support your idea that Islamic candidates should not hold office for the sole reason of their faith if you'll loudly and aggressively work against Bush being reelected and Ashcroft serving in our government on the sole basis that they hold an evangelical Christian faith.NEVER! :lol: Besides, I'm not against religious people holding office, as long as they do not impose their values on us through coercion. Persuasion is not the same as coercion. ~ Michael.Well then, what about the more immediate threat of christian churches rallying to get their members on school boards to alter the way children are taught to reflect christian ideals (i.e. taking out evolution, etc.). That's not some shadow conspiracy, thats happened and happening right now. Clearly evident. Where is your saber rattle for that?I believe the public education system should be abolished.Normally I don't go for this argument, but in this case it does speak to the truth of the complaintant. If your concern is really about not wanting people with a religous agenda working thier way into politics, then there is already a fight going. But it's with christians. That doesn't make a difference, right?Evolution is false, but if you want to believe it, that's fine with me. However, there are non-Christian scientists who, although they believe in evolution, admit they can't prove it yet. There is at least one case in which a non-Christian teacher in a public school showed out of mainstream -- not religiously oriented -- scientific journals the discrepancies in many "facts" on which the theory of evolution is based. But the ACLU sued in court so he would go back to the party line, even though he was not espousing religion in the classroom. The ACLU was obviously so afraid the students might reject evolution and turn to religion that it had to silence a teacher willing to show them the truth. ~ Michael.

Evolution is false, but if you want to believe it, that's fine with me. However, there are non-Christian scientists who, although they believe in evolution, admit they can't prove it yet. There is at least one case in which a non-Christian teacher in a public school showed out of mainstream -- not religiously oriented -- scientific journals the discrepancies in many "facts" on which the theory of evolution is based. But the ACLU sued in court so he would go back to the party line, even though he was not espousing religion in the classroom. The ACLU was obviously so afraid the students might reject evolution and turn to religion that it had to silence a teacher willing to show them the truth. ~ Michael.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, is every thread going to turn into a debate between Evolutionists and Creationists? Perhaps the general laws of thermodynamics should be adjusted. The universe will not die a heat death, but the last gasp will sound something like:

Stupid Funide, you're wrong!
Ignorant Heathan, you're wrong!

I'll make you an agreement. I will support your idea that Islamic candidates should not hold office for the sole reason of their faith if you'll loudly and aggressively work against Bush being reelected and Ashcroft serving in our government on the sole basis that they hold an evangelical Christian faith.NEVER! :lol: Besides, I'm not against religious people holding office, as long as they do not impose their values on us through coercion. Persuasion is not the same as coercion. ~ Michael.Well then, what about the more immediate threat of christian churches rallying to get their members on school boards to alter the way children are taught to reflect christian ideals (i.e. taking out evolution, etc.). That's not some shadow conspiracy, thats happened and happening right now. Clearly evident. Where is your saber rattle for that?I believe the public education system should be abolished.Normally I don't go for this argument, but in this case it does speak to the truth of the complaintant. If your concern is really about not wanting people with a religous agenda working thier way into politics, then there is already a fight going. But it's with christians. That doesn't make a difference, right?Evolution is false, but if you want to believe it, that's fine with me. However, there are non-Christian scientists who, although they believe in evolution, admit they can't prove it yet. There is at least one case in which a non-Christian teacher in a public school showed out of mainstream -- not religiously oriented -- scientific journals the discrepancies in many "facts" on which the theory of evolution is based. But the ACLU sued in court so he would go back to the party line, even though he was not espousing religion in the classroom. The ACLU was obviously so afraid the students might reject evolution and turn to religion that it had to silence a teacher willing to show them the truth. ~ Michael.
Ah...

Flat earther. I see.


Everything is a little clearer now....

Ah...Flat earther. I see. Everything is a little clearer now....The earth is round, and Leif Erickson landed at Newfoundland centuries before Columbus "discovered" America. But I am not a monkey's nephew. ~ Michael.

Any religion should not annoy in any way its non members.

A neighbourhood council should have say in this matter , and a referendum should be held.


If the muslims want to be called for prayer, let it be done through a local muslim telecommunication medium such as radio or T.V. or a personal alarm (this gizmo already exist). The Qu'ran probably says nothing about how religion should be backwards and annoying for everyone, instead of modern.
_____________________________________

On creationism: nothing wrong with a little criticism. Criticism can be devalidated through better evidence, better theories, making the position stronger of what was valid and true in the first place.

But if this criticism spouts from ignorance, blind faith, insanity, power hunger and media-addiction of certain individuals and organisations, and/or lack of common sense, it deserves to be ignored and even ridiculed.

Actually, since we're so far off topic at this point that we can't even remember what it was, the idea that religious institutions, specifically the Catholic Church, believed the world to be flat prior to Columbus is an urban legend. This was never part of Church doctrine and, indeed, everyone knew perfectly good and well the Earth was round. Columbus was not the first sailor and, in fact, a monk from the 13th century pointed out that the Earth must be round to account for the fact that you can see farther from higher up.

This little gem of misinformation crept into the modern conciousness thanks to a biography of Columbus penned by Washington Irving around 1828. He fabricated the entire confrontation between church elders, claiming the world was flat, and Columbus, claiming what everyone already knew, which was that the world was round.

The most famous maps of the time, while drawn in a flat perspective, are less factual geographical depictions of landmass (ship's captains, leaders and overland traders had much better, more accurate maps for that) and more of a religious pictogram showing a population with low literacy levels their place in church structure and church history.

Just a little point of trivia.

What if someone in that town programmed his church's bells to play Onward, Christian Soldiers just after each call to prayer? ~ Michael.

What if someone in that town programmed his church's bells to play Onward, Christian Soldiers just after each call to prayer? ~ Michael.

Would it have any relevant bearing on the happenings of the church? Or would it simply be an attack designed to infuriate the Muslims?

What if someone in that town programmed his church's bells to play Onward, Christian Soldiers just after each call to prayer? ~ Michael.I know many of y'all think I'm an ignorant, backward, fun-hating, warmongering, capitalist bastard of a religious fanatic; but wouldn't that be funny? :lol: ~ Michael.

What if someone in that town programmed his church's bells to play Onward, Christian Soldiers just after each call to prayer? ~ Michael.I know many of y'all think I'm an ignorant, backward, fun-hating, warmongering, capitalist bastard of a religious fanatic; but wouldn't that be funny? :lol: ~ Michael.

It would be asshole. How would you like it if the Islamic church had parades go right by your church every Sunday just as mass ends?

What if someone in that town programmed his church's bells to play Onward, Christian Soldiers just after each call to prayer? ~ Michael.I know many of y'all think I'm an ignorant, backward, fun-hating, warmongering, capitalist bastard of a religious fanatic; but wouldn't that be funny? :lol: ~ Michael.

Well, I hadn't thought that until you actually used "y'all" in your post. :D

And no, mocking someone's religion is never funny.

What if someone in that town programmed his church's bells to play Onward, Christian Soldiers just after each call to prayer? ~ Michael.I know many of y'all think I'm an ignorant, backward, fun-hating, warmongering, capitalist bastard of a religious fanatic; but wouldn't that be funny? :lol: ~ Michael.It would be asshole. How would you like it if the Islamic church had parades go right by your church every Sunday just as mass ends?Do Muslims have parades in America? I have never heard of one, only political protests. ~ Michael.

...and if neighbourhood councils and referenda and modern technology don't work (see my above post), firebomb the place. Not completely burn it down the first time, just damage their front door as a warning, or nail a dead pig to it.

...and if neighbourhood councils and referenda and modern technology don't work (see my above post), firebomb the place. Not completely burn it down the first time, just damage their front door as a warning, or nail a dead pig to it.Well ... I have my own plan in case mosques around here broadcast calls to prayer. I will pray their equipment won't work. I have prayed for storms to stop, and it has come to pass. The Lord can put the smackdown on a little ole loudspeaker sure 'nuff. ~ Michael.

...and if neighbourhood councils and referenda and modern technology don't work (see my above post), firebomb the place. Not completely burn it down the first time, just damage their front door as a warning, or nail a dead pig to it.Well ... I have my own plan in case mosques around here broadcast calls to prayer. I will pray their equipment won't work. I have prayed for storms to stop, and it has come to pass. The Lord can put the smackdown on a little ole loudspeaker sure 'nuff. ~ Michael.

Is it really so offensive to listen to their call to prayers 600 seconds a day?

...and if neighbourhood councils and referenda and modern technology don't work (see my above post), firebomb the place. Not completely burn it down the first time, just damage their front door as a warning, or nail a dead pig to it.Well ... I have my own plan in case mosques around here broadcast calls to prayer. I will pray their equipment won't work. I have prayed for storms to stop, and it has come to pass. The Lord can put the smackdown on a little ole loudspeaker sure 'nuff. ~ Michael.Is it really so offensive to listen to their call to prayers 600 seconds a day?Islam is a false religion worshipping a false god. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can a person be saved. Besides that, this loudspeaker nonsense, taken to the extreme, will become like neighborhoods in India, where every little shrine, temple, and church -- yes, the churches do it, too -- have loudspeakers blaring out recorded sermons and music around the clock, to persuade people to come inside. I used to eat at an Indian restaurant which had one of these contraptions, a portrait of a famous temple in India, overshadowed by famous religious masters, and a speaker played a song ... over and over and over and over again, all day long, in the foyer of the establishment. ~ Michael.

...and if neighbourhood councils and referenda and modern technology don't work (see my above post), firebomb the place. Not completely burn it down the first time, just damage their front door as a warning, or nail a dead pig to it.Well ... I have my own plan in case mosques around here broadcast calls to prayer. I will pray their equipment won't work. I have prayed for storms to stop, and it has come to pass. The Lord can put the smackdown on a little ole loudspeaker sure 'nuff. ~ Michael.Is it really so offensive to listen to their call to prayers 600 seconds a day?Islam is a false religion worshipping a false god. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can a person be saved. Besides that, this loudspeaker nonsense, taken to the extreme, will become like neighborhoods in India, where every little shrine, temple, and church -- yes, the churches do it, too -- have loudspeakers blaring out recorded sermons and music around the clock, to persuade people to come inside. I used to eat at an Indian restaurant which had one of these contraptions, a portrait of a famous temple in India, overshadowed by famous religious masters, and a speaker played a song ... over and over and over and over again, all day long, in the foyer of the establishment. ~ Michael.

God forbid you should learn a little cultural tolerance.

As for the false religion crack, does this mean I can pummel the next Mormon who comes knocking on my door? And, may I also point out, that Christianity and Islam come from the same root, namely the Old Testiment.

There's a story told about the Arab philosopher al-Kindi and a funeral procession.

Apparently al-Kindi (a notorious miser) was standing in the street when a parade passed by. It turned out to be a funeral party, bearing a coffin - and preceded by extremely loud mourners.

"Woe be to you, father! You are being borne to your final home - the house without any food or drink, where there are no windows and no lamps to give you light, and no furniture for you to rest upon!"

al-Kindi's child pulled on his hand. "Daddy! Daddy!"

"What is it?" al-Kindi asked.

"Why is the parade bringing that coffin to our house?"

To get back on topic - as someone who has disabled a mosque's loudspeaker, I won't condemn Michael for trying - but as long as the neighborhood mosque follows the same rules as the rest of us regarding loud noises (none between, what, 12 midnight and 7 o'clock in the morning?) the call to prayer is just fine by me. If you've ever sat in Istanbul during one of the calls to prayer, you can hear the various mosques in town chiming in together, each guided by one of the greatest muezzins in the Islamic world - they all blend together with the result that the call to prayer sounds a bit like an a capella Bach (or perhaps a rousing chorus of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"). It really is unearthly.

God forbid you should learn a little cultural tolerance. As for the false religion crack, does this mean I can pummel the next Mormon who comes knocking on my door? And, may I also point out, that Christianity and Islam come from the same root, namely the Old Testiment.Oh, I more than tolerate Indian food. I have completely assimilated tens of thousands of calories of it in my digestive system. No doubt, Middle Eastern food is good as well. Hmmm...I was hesitating on eating food sold by Muslims since I do not want to support Islam, but hey, I am paying Hindus and Sikhs to cook for me. I might as well go whole hog and eat Muslim food, too. Well...maybe I should not tell the Muslim proprietor that I am going whole hog. It might offend him.

As for Mormons, a pleasant-sounding young man comes to my workplace, gasses up the company car, and proselytizes on my parking lot. I let him preach his message of deception and evil. This is America.

Muslims believe (as do most agnostics and liberals and so on) that the Old Testament is not accurate. Of course, the Lord said of Ishmael: "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" (Genesis 16:12). That sounds like Islam today. Muslims fight everyone, and everyone fights Muslims.

By the way, neighboring counties have loudspeakers associated with Islam. The air raid sirens at the nuclear power plant are supposed to go off in case Islamic terrorists attack. ~ Michael.

And, may I also point out, that Christianity and Islam come from the same root, namely the Old Testiment.
Some Islamic sects (I'm thinking of the Druze in particular, and also possibly the Alawis in Syria) consider the New Testament to be sacred literature as well, and consider reading it to be a religious obligation.

I'd also point out that Jesus is the one of the most beloved prophets of Islam after Muhammad (right up there with Moses and Abraham), and even today you'll find that Isa (Jesus) is one of the most popular Muslim names in the Middle East.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is not to ban any religion from public spaces. It is to ensure that the government does not endorse or hinder practice of any religion.

Were you stoned when you wrote this, the 2nd Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms!

Oh, I more than tolerate Indian food. I have completely assimilated tens of thousands of calories of it in my digestive system. No doubt, Middle Eastern food is good as well. Hmmm...I was hesitating on eating food sold by Muslims since I do not want to support Islam, but hey, I am paying Hindus and Sikhs to cook for me. I might as well go whole hog and eat Muslim food, too. Well...maybe I should not tell the Muslim proprietor that I am going whole hog. It might offend him.

Sigh. Was that witty? I couldn't tell.


As for Mormons, a pleasant-sounding young man comes to my workplace, gasses up the company car, and proselytizes on my parking lot. I let him preach his message of deception and evil. This is America.

How generous and egalitarian of you.


Muslims believe (as do most agnostics and liberals and so on) that the Old Testament is not accurate.

Er, so do Christians. At least inaccurate as far as Jesus needing to come back and extend the law. I'm not sure where the swipe at agnostics and liberals came from, but kudos for collateral damage, I guess.


Of course, the Lord said of Ishmael: "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" (Genesis 16:12). That sounds like Islam today. Muslims fight everyone, and everyone fights Muslims.

Well, thank you for demonstrating you have just as broad and rational a view of Islam as you have of Christianity.

By the way, neighboring counties have loudspeakers associated with Islam. The air raid sirens at the nuclear power plant are supposed to go off in case Islamic terrorists attack. ~ Michael.[/quote]

[/quote]Islam is a false religion worshipping a false god. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can a person be saved. Besides that, this loudspeaker nonsense, taken to the extreme, will become like neighborhoods in India, where every little shrine, temple, and church -- yes, the churches do it, too -- have loudspeakers blaring out recorded sermons and music around the clock, to persuade people to come inside. I used to eat at an Indian restaurant which had one of these contraptions, a portrait of a famous temple in India, overshadowed by famous religious masters, and a speaker played a song ... over and over and over and over again, all day long, in the foyer of the establishment. ~ Michael.[/quote]


watch ur foul mouth. learn to respect and live among other unique individuals.