NationStates Jolt Archive

I hope I'm not offending anybody's faith here, but . . . .

Presbyterians believe in a doctrine called Predestination (belief that a select few are pre-chosen to enter heaven) correct?

but then the Bible states that God grants people free will, to do both good and bad, thus meaning that depending upon a person's chosen actions, they will choose whether or not they go to heaven . . .

I hope I'm not offending anybody's faith here, but . . . .

Presbyterians believe in a doctrine called Predestination (belief that a select few are pre-chosen to enter heaven) correct?

but then the Bible states that God grants people free will, to do both good and bad, thus meaning that depending upon a person's chosen actions, they will choose whether or not they go to heaven . . .

Strict predestinationists generally follow Augustine's ideas. Basically, God granted Adam and Eve free will. They screwed it up and the image of God in them got twisted [ie original sin], so all other people only have the free will to chose between the bad options. God has chosen a few people and granted them the gift of grace so that they can be saved and since they have grace, they can do good things.

Of course, I think Augustine was one of the worst theologians in the history of the church and it's truly a shame that so much of the Catholic faith (although they didn't go with strict predestinationism - that didn't happen really until Calvin) and others were influenced by him.

No offense to Presbytarians, but I always thought predestination was one of the dumbest ideas. It is an easy way of not taking responcibility for your actions.

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This isn't the easiest question, in fact, it's probably one of the most difficult, and as a non-presbyterian, I might not be the best to respond. Still, I think I understand some of the argument behind the doctrine, so I'll try to explain what I know. Keep in mind, though, God's the only One with all the answers, of course.
Anyway, pre-destination does indeed imply that there are some God has not pre-destined to go to Heaven. Thus, the automatic assumption is, He stole their 'freedom of choice.' Well, not really. It's similar to the nature vs. nurture debate, in that although each of us has a choice at any given moment between a certain number of options, we do NOT always have a choice as to what those options are. For example, if I'm stranded on a desert island with a limited supply of food: I could, a) eat all the food in one big feast, believing I'm a goner anyway, or b) ration it out in the hope that I'll be spotted by some passing ship and saved. Thus, I have a choice, and if I choose a) and starve thirty days later, only to have a passing ship come by on day 31, well that's my bad choice. But what I did NOT choose was to be on that desert island in the first place, see what I'm getting at? Similarly, there are some who are--for whatever reason--given life circumstances which "pre-destine" them (or at least make it highly likely) that they will choose a certain path. Now, some might object, isn't that highly unfair of God, to give us circumstances over which we had no control? No, not really. Each of us has the chance to choose right, and unlike the poor chap on the island, we DO know what the righ decision is...yet we don't choose it. That some are then shown extra mercy above and beyond is a matter of God's grace but certainly not something ANY of us deserves given the first wrong decision we made.

Again, this is at best, a layman's attempt to explain a divine concept, so I would suggest looking into a website like christianthinktank.org or thetrinityfoundation.org (which is presbyterian thinktank) to name a few. God's blessings

As far as I can remember predestination requires a bit of mind leaping. It is God knows everything, therefore God knows who is 'saved.' Humans have free will, but God knows what they are going to do anyway. May be someone who believes in it should explain it.

Of course Augustine theology was rejected in favour of Thomism (sp?) at Trent, one of the few wise moves on the part of the church at the time.

If God is not sovereign in one's heart, then He is not sovereign.

John Calvin put great stock in Paul's ideas about predestination, but for him it was a source of comfort and reassurance. It was as if God was saying "Life is hard and things may not go well for you but don't worry, I've seen to it that you'll be all right in the end."

For him, the great thing was the gift of grace. Predestination was secondary.

After Calvin's death, somw of his followers got ultra-legalistic with his ideas. This is a common pattern; it happened to Jesus and Gautama Buddha, it could happen to Calvin. They made predestination the center of their system. Some of them, at the Dutch Sunod of Dort, went so far as to claim that God had predestined some people to Hell: before they were even born, they were damned. So much for free will!!

I work with some fine vompassionate non-judgmental Presbyterians. They mostly try to ignore these embarassing doctrines.