NationStates Jolt Archive

For a number of years I have had a copy of Shogun on my bookshelf and read it at least twice a year.

I just recently bought and watched the Shogun miniseries on the collectors edition DVD as well which brings me to the point of this thread:

What do people think of Samuraii?

I would have respected their abilities and their sense of honour but could not in any way, shape or form agree to follow an order that was in modern terms dishonourable. In the book/miniseries Toranaga orders his son to prove his loyalty by killing his own children. It is a test and Toronaga keeps the children safe, but the point is that his son obeyed him and went off to kill them and would have killed them if he could have found them.

Loyalty is relative. to me the order is

family/country/friends/humanity/religion.

How about you?

:twisted:

Hope I get a reply to this thread as the last time I started a thread nobody bothered and I ended up deleting it myself.

Ah well, Karma!

I should have said above that as far as the test goes, if taken out of context it could be seen to be barbaric, but you need to read the book to understand the situation. Toranaga is the good guy. And the test was a worthy one.

:twisted:

For Dante it was

God, Lords, guests, Country, Kindred (which I think includes freinds).
With God as the most important (obviously).

For me I would say kindred (not sure if I would put friends before family or vice-versa, thankfully I've never had to), humanity, country.

I would have respected their abilities and their sense of honour but could not in any way, shape or form agree to follow an order that was in modern terms dishonourable.

I think though at the time it was considered honourable. I think that other societies at various times such as the Zulus under Chaka and to a certain extent the Medaeval system of "chivalry" had what we would now not think of as honourable practices in force. These societies have fortunately evolved to a more or less "acceptable" form.

In the book/miniseries Toranaga orders his son to prove his loyalty by killing his own children. It is a test and Toronaga keeps the children safe, but the point is that his son obeyed him and went off to kill them and would have killed them if he could have found them.

I,m not an expert on the bible but wasn't there a similar story there ? How many people live by this book which although in many ways an excellent framework to live by has such historically relevant items that now would not be acceptabl in practice.


Loyalty is relative. to me the order is

family/country/friends/humanity/religion.

How about you?

I Think your list for your personal loyalty is pretty similar to mine.
I also think that comparing older moral standards with our present ones whilst instructive needs to recognize that it is not of great value to work towards a "good" or "bad" judgement due to the evolution during the intervening years. This in itself shos that the older proactices are no longer accepted perhaps.

:twisted:[/quote]

Shogun. Great book. One of my all time favourites. Country above friends? Interesting. How do they feel about that lol.

For me it would be:

1)Girlfriend/spouse.
2)Family.
3)Friends (Though 2 and 3 could change depending on which friend and family member it is).
4)Religion and my belief system.
5) My country.

Loyalty is relative. to me the order is

family/country/friends/humanity/religion.

How about you?

I know that if I remain loyal to myself, and thus my own beliefs, feelings and thoughts, I will always act towards others in a way that is just in at least my own eyes. So I'd have to say: me!

As for loyalty to others. I think it would be foolish to say "My gf comes before my family and the later comes before the world", because one can easily imagine circumstances that would justify upholding one's loyalty to one at the expense of the other. So, whether or not I remain loyal to my gf, family, the world, et cetera, really is circumstancial.