NationStates Jolt Archive

Just a poll :)

You forgot conciencoious objector / medical deferment / student deferment / ect.

Not only am I a pacifist, I can't stand blood/that stuff. If they try and make me go, I dunno about Canada, but somewhere else. (Still a student for a couple years, though, so I'll prolly be safe)

I'd go but I wouldn't like, I don't think anyone likes it. But if one runs or hides another is chosen, another who may be less able to run or hide. I couldn't live with thinking that by my refusal someone else inheritted my bad luck and died of it.

You forgot conciencoious objector / medical deferment / student deferment / ect.

Not only am I a pacifist, I can't stand blood/that stuff. If they try and make me go, I dunno about Canada, but somewhere else. (Still a student for a couple years, though, so I'll prolly be safe)Oh, sorry.

The first choice should say (Excluding any circumstancial problems like medical or student reasons)

And the 2nd should read OR consciencious objector.

I'd go but I wouldn't like, I don't think anyone likes it. But if one runs or hides another is chosen, another who may be less able to run or hide. I couldn't live with thinking that by my refusal someone else inheritted my bad luck and died of it.I meant "wouldn't like it" in the sense that you'd dress up in womens clothing the whole time like that guy on mash or grab purple hearts on every little thinkg like john Kerry till you get sent home.

No, this isn't a kerry-bashing thread.. :)

I'd go but I wouldn't like, I don't think anyone likes it. But if one runs or hides another is chosen, another who may be less able to run or hide. I couldn't live with thinking that by my refusal someone else inheritted my bad luck and died of it.I meant "wouldn't like it" in the sense that you'd dress up in womens clothing the whole time like that guy on mash or grab purple hearts on every little thinkg like john Kerry till you get sent home.

No, this isn't a kerry-bashing thread.. :)You just made it one--and maybe one day you'll have the balls he does. Read the actual military reports that were released today--here's a breakdown (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Kerry-Purple-Hearts.html?hp) of what was released--and then compare it to anyone on the Republican side who has criticized Kerry's war record. For that matter--compare it to your own, you little git.

There aren't student deferments anymore, so that would not matter.

Conscientious Bbjector-
Must be proven by religious ground our by swarn affidavit from several other people. You wouldn't serve on the front lines but you would either serve in the States on in Hospital/aide units.

Medical Deferment-
That still works, but it must be proven by affidavit.

Going to Canada-
You won't be able to come back home because you're a felon on the run. That's until the president issues pardons...if he issues pardons.

There aren't student deferments anymore, so that would not matter.
Blech ..
Conscientious Bbjector-
Must be proven by religious ground our by swarn affidavit from several other people. You wouldn't serve on the front lines but you would either serve in the States on in Hospital/aide units.

Medical Deferment-
That still works, but it must be proven by affidavit.
These things I knew. Concientious Objecor is still an option, even if it doesn't mean getting to skip the thing entirely.

Going to Canada-
You won't be able to come back home because you're a felon on the run. That's until the president issues pardons...if he issues pardons.
Meh

If I can't live in the US without being sent to war (or punished for not going fighting a war), I'd rather not live here at all.

I am a conscientious objector.

Some of my friends and fellow believers went to jail for their conscience's sake.

Others were allowed to perform alternative service, such as cleaning bedpans for severely retarded people.

As a Canadian it doesn't affect me. However, I can still be drafted should my government decide that its needed. and if the Canadian government feels that a draft is need then we are all screwed.

As a Canadian it doesn't affect me. However, I can still be drafted should my government decide that its needed. and if the Canadian government feels that a draft is need then we are all screwed.Does Canada even have any enemies? LOL

so what if the war is against canada... :?

anyway, id want a decent reason to go, but if i just ran off, id be so guilty, letting everyone down...

I'd go. Not much more to say.

As a Canadian it doesn't affect me. However, I can still be drafted should my government decide that its needed. and if the Canadian government feels that a draft is need then we are all screwed.Does Canada even have any enemies? LOL

we would like to think that we don't, but realisticlly I think that there are someone out there.

mainly due to the fact that they see as being the same as Americans.

Sen. Hollings (D-SC) says we need mandatory service. (http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/press/2003108C06.html)

Sen. Hegel (R-NE) pushes for draft (yesterday). (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040420/pl_afp/us_iraq_military_draft_040420163408)
This time it's a Republican, so you know they mean it... :shock:

John Kerry outlines plan to increase National Service. (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/johnkerry_service_fact_sheet.pdf)

Yeah, Kerry is quite the brave man- he even supports forcing all young Americans to be as brave as him. (No, he doesn't say that it has to be military service anywhere in his plan- but how would a Democrat ever get elected if he was open about a position like that? They'll vote for someone who thinks all kids should have to save babies or feed the homeless)

Draft board begins hiring. When media notices, all traces of hiring disappear. (http://russoforpresident.com/proof1.php)

Some people are cut out to be soldiers.....some simply arent.
Im simply not.
There are other things I can do for my country other than run around and dying of a heart attack while carrying a 100 lbs pack.

I can't take orders, so it is the best intrests of all concerned I not be in the Army.

I put no because that was of best fit. I actually would never be drafted because I have asthma (I carry an inhaler with me 24/7).

You know how medical practitioners are exempt, what about Pschologists?

Some people are cut out to be soldiers.....some simply arent.
Im simply not.
There are other things I can do for my country other than run around and dying of a heart attack while carrying a 100 lbs pack.

Actually..the pack is normally 50-70 depending on whether or not you're attached to a weapons platoon..lite mortars...machine guns..etc..that is unless they've increased the carrying load since I retired.

Some people are cut out to be soldiers.....some simply arent.
Im simply not.
There are other things I can do for my country other than run around and dying of a heart attack while carrying a 100 lbs pack.

Actually..the pack is normally 50-70 depending on whether or not you're attached to a weapons platoon..lite mortars...machine guns..etc..that is unless they've increased the carrying load since I retired.

man..I get queasy carrying a 25 lbs rock 50 feet......got a bad back.....and I hate mornings...you think Im soldier material?

To those that are cut out for it...I salute you.......

ill make sure your targeting computer works....deal?

i would fill my canteen with coors and run onto the battle field

i wonder if they would sort of refuse to draft me once they realized i was an anarchist. if i was the government i certainly wouldn't train me and hand me powerful weapons.

You forgot conciencoious objector / medical deferment / student deferment / ect.

Not only am I a pacifist, I can't stand blood/that stuff. If they try and make me go, I dunno about Canada, but somewhere else. (Still a student for a couple years, though, so I'll prolly be safe)

Student deferment??? You must be living in a dream world?
You can't really think that if your country would face a real war, your studies would be continued as normal? :?: :roll: :?:

As most know I've already served..I did a full 20 in the Marines and even went back on active duty for the First Gulf War before settling back into retirement...I think every young man and woman should serve at some point in their life...the military gives you focus, discipline, a healthy respect for hard work, physical fitness, and it matures you faster then if you hadn't in my opinion.

But for those who can't serve I understand completely...not everyone packs the gear that would allow them to serve...some just can't see themselves in uniform but might opt for some sort of national service instead..I truly believe that if you accept the benefits of citizenship it's not to much to ask that you accept the hazards of that same citizenship. Men like me and those before me have fought, bled, died, and surived wars, some unjust, some just, some logical, some illogical, but it's not about politics...in the military we have a saying...you never discuss politics or religion because for every two people you'll get 3 opinions..what it is is bout comraderie...esprit de corps..bonds of brotherhood..or for those women...sisterhood that can only be formed between men in uniform or even moreso in combat..I lost a total of 19 friends in various units in Vietnam..saw 4 times that the number of friends wounded.

It's not for everyone..but I would at least encourage those to see if it appeals to them.

Let's see... reasons I shouldn't join the army:

I'm not a patriot. Give me a gun and tell me to fight, and I'd either throw it away, sell it, or join the side I agreed with, rather than the side which just happened to be paid for by my taxes.

I'm only brave when it's something I care about. I wouldn't say I was an outright coward- I think I would charge a machine gun if it was the only way to save someone I loved, but certainly not because not doing so would b*gger up someone's inebriated battle plan, or because 'King and Country' (or, in the case of GWB, "C**t and 'king tree"[1]) asked me to.

I'm not disciplined. I make up my own mind, and I change my priorities from day to day. Mentally, I'd actually probably make a rather good spy, but I might well also betray my own 'side' just out of curiosity to compare the two sides' spying techniques, or to try the enemy espionage headquarters' canteen food, rather than because my loyalties had changed. I'd also be like Tom Baker, and react to National Service by pretending to be insane- responding to parade ground shouted orders with: "I'M NOT INTERESTED IN STANDING AROUND ALL DAY GETTING SHOUTED AT BY A PROFESSIONAL MURDERER, SAH!"

I'm physically pathetic, in hopeless condition. I can't run a kilometre without the tendons in the backs of my knees twanging, incapacitating me for about five minutes, I'm twenty-four and suffer from occasional chest pains, and have a manic depressive temperament which ranges from outright pacifist to downright sociopathic. (If I didn't stop myself, I could find myself beating a superior officer to a bloody pulp for kicking a pigeon out of his way. Yes, I know the logic doesn't make sense. I would be a liability.) I am strong, but only in compression- my wrists are bloody useless.

So, in short, I'd either run away to save my own skin, or decide I agreed with the enemy and change sides, or decide to change sides purely because the sun was in my eyes on this side of the battlefield or some such reason, or change sides to annoy my commanding officer as a bizarre and unfunny joke, or deliberately bomb my own barracks out of spite or have a nervous breakdown about killing one of the enemy, and be about as much use as a plasticene rifle in combat anyway.

It'd be patriotic of me to go and hide in a cave, wouldn't it? :lol:

[1] Yes, cruder than I'd like, but I thought I'd share it with you.

Let's see... reasons I shouldn't join the army:

I'm not a patriot. Give me a gun and tell me to fight, and I'd either throw it away, sell it, or join the side I agreed with, rather than the side which just happened to be paid for by my taxes.

I'm only brave when it's something I care about. I wouldn't say I was an outright coward- I think I would charge a machine gun if it was the only way to save someone I loved, but certainly not because not doing so would b*gger up someone's inebriated battle plan, or because 'King and Country' (or, in the case of GWB, "C**t and 'king tree"[1]) asked me to.

I'm not disciplined. I make up my own mind, and I change my priorities from day to day. Mentally, I'd actually probably make a rather good spy, but I might well also betray my own 'side' just out of curiosity to compare the two sides' spying techniques, or to try the enemy espionage headquarters' canteen food, rather than because my loyalties had changed. I'd also be like Tom Baker, and react to National Service by pretending to be insane- responding to parade ground shouted orders with: "I'M NOT INTERESTED IN STANDING AROUND ALL DAY GETTING SHOUTED AT BY A PROFESSIONAL MURDERER, SAH!"

I'm physically pathetic, in hopeless condition. I can't run a kilometre without the tendons in the backs of my knees twanging, incapacitating me for about five minutes, I'm twenty-four and suffer from occasional chest pains, and have a manic depressive temperament which ranges from outright pacifist to downright sociopathic. (If I didn't stop myself, I could find myself beating a superior officer to a bloody pulp for kicking a pigeon out of his way. Yes, I know the logic doesn't make sense. I would be a liability.) I am strong, but only in compression- my wrists are bloody useless.

So, in short, I'd either run away to save my own skin, or decide I agreed with the enemy and change sides, or decide to change sides purely because the sun was in my eyes on this side of the battlefield or some such reason, or change sides to annoy my commanding officer as a bizarre and unfunny joke, or deliberately bomb my own barracks out of spite or have a nervous breakdown about killing one of the enemy, and be about as much use as a plasticene rifle in combat anyway.

It'd be patriotic of me to go and hide in a cave, wouldn't it? :lol:

[1] Yes, cruder than I'd like, but I thought I'd share it with you.

I understand your reasons...fair enough..not everyone packs the gear to serve..but I would also hasten to add that you should also not obtain the benefits of citizenship if you are not willing to give back for that citizenship.

Fair enough- I'd probably counter that there are other means of paying back than fighting for the country- mind, we do pay for most of those benefits of citizenship through taxation, so I'm not too sure what I actually do owe my country, but I wouldn't expect it to shell out when I won't. I don't actually feel like a citizen- if I did, then I might feel an emotional attachment to my nation, and that would change some of the rules. I still think I wouldn't be much use as a soldier, but if I had some reason to care about my government, then maybe I would fight for it in some circumstances. As it is, if Gerhard Schroeder and Jacques Chirac announced their intention to displace Tony Blair and conquer Britain tomorrow, I'd probably just shrug and say "As you like. Do try not to make as much of a balls-up of it as Tony has, please?"

I truly believe that if you accept the benefits of citizenship it's not to much to ask that you accept the hazards of that same citizenship.

What, taxes? Being ruled by incompitant morons? Neds?

I, like you, was born into citizenship, I didn't accept it. I don't see why I should have to put my life on the line for a cause I don't believe in.

Men like me and those before me have fought, bled, died, and surived wars, some unjust, some just, some logical, some illogical, but it's not about politics...

It's not?!?!?! Then what? Imperialist expansion? Lebensraum? Oil? Gold? For fun?

In the military we have a saying...you never discuss politics or religion because for every two people you'll get 3 opinions..

Yeah, thats the funny thing about humans. We have the capability to think for ourselves. The military is one of the organisations which discourages that.

I'm in Canada, and we don't have the draft.

Speaking hypothetically.. Well, I'd hit on the draft officer. And the MP's. And the foot soldiers, and the drill sergeants, administrative staff, visiting officers, etc, etc. I assure you I'd be back home, watching the war on some channel or another, within a week. 8)

I'm in Canada, and we don't have the draft.

Speaking hypothetically.. Well, I'd hit on the draft officer. And the MP's. And the foot soldiers, and the drill sargeants, administrative staff, visiting officers, etc, etc. I assure you I'd be back home, watching the war on some channel or another, within a week. 8)

From prison of course, but hey the 2-5 years would be well worth it.

note: that wasn't meant to be sarcastic, even though it kind of seems that way.

From prison of course, but hey the 2-5 years would be well worth it.

note: that wasn't meant to be sarcastic, even though it kind of seems that way.

There's nothing illegal about hitting on people, IIRC. The Army has a don't ask, don't tell policy, I believe, but you can't get imprisoned for violating it. :p

From prison of course, but hey the 2-5 years would be well worth it.

note: that wasn't meant to be sarcastic, even though it kind of seems that way.

There's nothing illegal about hitting on people, IIRC. The Army has a don't ask, don't tell policy, I believe, but you can't get imprisoned for violating it. :p

Sorry I misread. I thought you said "hit" people, not "hit on" people. My mistake

Curious poll.

I voted for the second option in that it would depend on the war.

If it was a just war, a war to defend Britain from a direct threat then yes I would gladly obey a callup.

If it was an unjust war, like the illegal inavasion and occupation of Iraq, then I would tell them to go to hell.

I can't see the British Government drafting anyone for anything other than a World War anyway, and if that happened again (god forbid) then I wouldn't wait for the callup, I would volunteer.

Lets face it, it would probably be against the Germans again, maybe with the French as their allies this time!

What we don't want in Britain is the same situation that occurred in the US at the time of the Vietnam War when people were drafted. None of those soldiers were fighting to defend America, rather to prop up an unpopular administration. Sound familiar to anyone?

We must also remember that Nuremberg eliminated that old cowardly fallback phrase "I was only obeying orders" so that nowadays even the basic soldier has to ask himself if what he is ordered to do is immoral, and if it is disobey the order. Easier said than done, what with peer pressure, propaganda and a hostile society/environement.

:twisted:

Sorry I misread. I thought you said "hit" people, not "hit on" people. My mistake

Heh. I can't see myself hitting a drill sergeant just to avoid a draft.. Unless they did something really, really stupid that made me really, really angry.

Curious poll.

I voted for the second option in that it would depend on the war.

If it was a just war, a war to defend Britain from a direct threat then yes I would gladly obey a callup.

If it was an unjust war, like the illegal inavasion and occupation of Iraq, then I would tell them to go to hell.

I can't see the British Government drafting anyone for anything other than a World War anyway, and if that happened again (god forbid) then I wouldn't wait for the callup, I would volunteer.

Lets face it, it would probably be against the Germans again, maybe with the French as their allies this time!

What we don't want in Britain is the same situation that occurred in the US at the time of the Vietnam War when people were drafted. None of those soldiers were fighting to defend America, rather to prop up an unpopular administration. Sound familiar to anyone?

:twisted:

:lol: That's funny. "We are tired of ze Germans destroying our country. Maybe if we join zem, we can fight once again those English pigs."

Okay that's not really that funny, but I'm tired so everything's funny right now.

I personally think it would be a much braver decision to not fight for your country. Pacifists are way braver than soldiers in my book.

Sorry I misread. I thought you said "hit" people, not "hit on" people. My mistake

Heh. I can't see myself hitting a drill sergeant just to avoid a draft.. Unless they did something really, really stupid that made me really, really angry.

My dad was a drill sargeant for two years. I've got about 3 inches and 50 lbs on him and twenty years younger, but he can still kick my ass if he wanted to. :oops:

My dad was a drill sargeant for two years. I've got about 3 inches and 50 lbs on him and twenty years younger, but he can still kick my ass if he wanted to. :oops:

Hehehe. Once a soldier, always a solider, I guess.

I am a conscientious objector.

Some of my friends and fellow believers went to jail for their conscience's sake.


That IS a shame, mate. They should've been shot.

decide I agreed with the enemy and change sidesp
Then I would hope that special forces would capture you, shoot you, and put your head on a pike. If you don't want to fight for your country, you can damned well leave. People that want to reap all the benefits of living in the USA without serving it when the need presents itself ought to move to some hellhole such as Ethiopia.

Anyhow, this discussion is merely academic in regards to Americans, as the chances of the draft (short of a major war, a category to which Iraq does not belong) being reinstituted are nil.

Too bad they weren't shot.



Classy. It's so refreshing to see people who's concern for their fellow man is so paper-thin that it can be disregarded the moment they express a conflicting viewpoint.

Well i'm not american, and the threat of someone actually wanting sweden for something. Is kinda low, not that we would have much to fight back with :lol: . Not sure what i would do actually, maby i would pick up a gun and fight or just simply sit it out somewhere safe..

I'd fight if my country actually got invaded, or was about to be. By invaded, I mean actually invaded I don't mean like 'there are these people in some far off nation who might do something maybe but we can't proove it' sorta thing.

The only problem being, if someone tried to invade us we'd be pretty f---ed anyway. (which is why I'm not too fussed that they've scaled down the airforce. Having those outdated fighters wouldn't do shit for national security)

decide I agreed with the enemy and change sides
Then I would hope that special forces would capture you, shoot you, and put your head on a pike. If you don't want to fight for your country, you can damned well leave. People that want to reap all the benefits of living in the USA without serving it when the need presents itself ought to move to some hellhole such as Ethiopia.

Anyhow, this discussion is merely academic in regards to Americans, as the chances of the draft (short of a major war, a category to which Iraq does not belong) being reinstituted are nil.

Well, a) I'm not American, and b) it depends what you mean by 'country'. Sorry, that sounds like the infamous Clinton 'if'ism, but yes, I might well be willing to 'put up or shut up' for the sake of my country's environment, for the sake of its people, or even for the sake of some aspects of its way of life... but for the sake of its government and flag? Nope. You see, for me, the British Government, the Queen, democracy, the Army, the Administration, all that... well, they're at best tangential, at worst actually detrimental to the many things I do actually value about life in this country. So I wouldn't necessarily even perceive invasion and conquest as a significant alteration to what makes Britain British to me... so why would I fight for that? It's not disloyalty, it's just a different set of priorities. I never signed any social contract to support the government of my country in the first place, not even by living in it. The people's wellbeing in my global community, yes, but Tony Blair et al... nope.

As a contientious objector and peace advocate and activist in my 30s, I would never serve in the armed forces. My simple belief is that all killing is wrong, period. However, I do support our armed forces and understand and resepct that they have made a different choice for their lives. I feel, though, that all young men and women have a right to make this choice for themselves and should not be called upon to sacrifice their lives or their moral souls (even if you live through combat service, you may not survive spiritually) for anything less than a full scale, on the ground invasion of our national boarders and even then I still firmly believe it should be a choice. Some of us would truly rather die than take the life of another, whatever the reason.

I also think that, in the US, we will see a draft reinstituted either by February or June of 2005 no matter who wins in November, so this question isn't as far fetched as it might sound.

As for Visciousdolphin's apalling lack of respect for both the opinions and lives of others and his hysterical belief that the "chances of a draft being reinstituted are nil," did you even bother to read the links earlier in the thread? Not only is new enlistment down to record lows, but of the troops in Iraq polled as to if they will reenlist, the numbers showed almost half (like 43%) said no, they wouldn't. Also, suicide among troops on the ground is up by 1/3, higher than the number during the Viet Nam war. Recently, in addition to all the politicians making rumblings about a reinstitution of the draft (which are 9 times out of 10 smacked down hard because it's re-election poison), $28 million has been given to the Selective Service Board, which has been charged with reporting to President Bush (assuming he wins) on March 31st, 2005, that all systems are go. Take a look at this link, at least:

http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

The Pentagon has begun staffing draft boards that have lain idle for decades and, with the Patriot Act, it's much easier for Congress to bring legislation to vote and "quietly" pass it before the public even knows it's being debated. Try this link:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5146.htm

This has been in the works for several years now and, as more US citizens resist volunteering for military service and more countries pull out of the "Coalition of the Willing", a not so major conflict (which is just an oxymoron) like Iraq becomes a huge drain on military resources. Plus, there's a certain level of rediness to be maintained. What if North Korea or the Philippines go critical, but all of our available forces are in Iraq or Afghanistan? Where are the extra troops going to come from to defend our borders, particularly since we've managed to piss the rest of the world off to the point of, "Good, they're reaping what they sowed."

In addition, the draft age may be increased this time to 35 or higher in the cases of skilled technical workers, like computer, medical and language professionals.

I'll agree that, in normal conditions, the military doesn't want drafted, unwilling soldiers, but we're quickly approaching very un-ideal situations and they may be forced to conscript young men and probably women this time to try and stave off the global backlash Bush has brought down upon us.

Here are a few more links. While the reinstatement of the draft is by no means a sure thing, we're a lot closer to it than we have been at any time since it's abolition in the 70s. If this doesn't make you think, I simply don't know what will.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1222-02.htm

http://www.nisbco.org/uaa12-9-03.htm

http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/press/2003108C06.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33754

http://www.bushdraft.com/

http://g0lem.net/portal/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9

Now..people like you Berk I can respect...I've met a few honest to Gods peace advocates in my time..who sincerely believe that the taking of a life is wrong...that means you are against ALL wars on a moral grounds, not just ones in which a person might have political opposition too. People like you I can acknowledge your beliefs and move on..I spent over 2 decades learning how to kill someone or train kids to do it..but people like you are the yin to my yang...There will always be someone like you, and that is the natural order of things...one can not have an up without a down..a left without a right..hence you can not have war without peace.

It's these "Fair weather Conscientous Objectors" I have a problem with. Who never had a problem with wars or the military before..but suddenly due to their political affiliations or opposition to a particular war, be it Vietnam for my generation..Iraq for yours..they have an epiphany and try to claim CO status.

I put "depends on the reason for the war," but that doesn't mean I would actually dodge any draft that applied to me, I would just do what I could to get out of it if I disagreed with the war. If that didn't work I suppose I'd go.

Of course, this is all a moot point since I'm female and the draft doesn't apply to me right now anyways. I think if we are going to draft men, we should draft women, so I would have just as much responsibility as anyone else.

no, i wouldn't go if drafted, for several reasons.

1) i'm a woman, and i couldn't be drafted legally according to our current laws.
2) i do not believe this war is a just cause, and while my duty to my country binds me to pay taxes that support the war that duty cannot push me to kill another human being for a reason i don't believe in. i cannot actively participate in what i believe to be unjustified murder, and i think it would be dishonorable for me to try to do so.
3) i am a student, and even if women could be drafted i would be eligible for a deferment to complete my studies. i think i would be of better service to my country at home than in combat, since i am 5'1" and have never fired a gun in my life. i probably will be much more help in the research field, since that is what i have spent years training for.

Now..people like you Berk I can respect...I've met a few honest to Gods peace advocates in my time..who sincerely believe that the taking of a life is wrong...that means you are against ALL wars on a moral grounds, not just ones in which a person might have political opposition too. People like you I can acknowledge your beliefs and move on..I spent over 2 decades learning how to kill someone or train kids to do it..but people like you are the yin to my yang...There will always be someone like you, and that is the natural order of things...one can not have an up without a down..a left without a right..hence you can not have war without peace.

It's these "Fair weather Conscientous Objectors" I have a problem with. Who never had a problem with wars or the military before..but suddenly due to their political affiliations or opposition to a particular war, be it Vietnam for my generation..Iraq for yours..they have an epiphany and try to claim CO status.

Thanks, Salishe, I appreciate that. I also respect you and enjoy reading your views (even though I rarely agree with them :D ). Still, you present them in an honest, well-thought out and sincere way that I enjoy and that makes me think, which is the whole point of this thing.

I also understand about the Fair Weather Conscientious Objectors as they sometimes bug me as well. Instead of taking a stand early on the process, when it might be dangerous and unpopular but ultimately sway the course of future events, they wait until they are directly affected to suddenly have a Come To Jesus moment. So instead of being out there trying to promote good policy and save lives when people are throwing things at us and hurling insults, they wait until it's their butt on the line and popular sentiment has been reversed. Still, I guess Johnny-Come-Lately is better than Johnny-Never-Came-At-All.

Bottle hun you're only 5'1?....well shoot..I'd have to pick you up just so you could shoot over the firing hole...lol..best you stay on the R&D thing just like you said...and I wouldn't want to compromise your beliefs, so how bout designing liteweight, porous, and comfortable body armor for servicemembers....that's totally defensive..or a GPS system that can take a beating in the bush and still work....or a helmet with a HUD that is also liteweight and porous (those current helmets can get hot and they can be heavy)..or a ready-made building for a field Hospital that can be put up quicker then current adaptions, the Army's MASH units are pretty decent..complete with AC......whole lotta things you can do to help out and still not compromise your beliefs.

Student deferment??? You must be living in a dream world?
You can't really think that if your country would face a real war, your studies would be continued as normal? :?: :roll: :?:
*blink*

Real war? Where? You can't mean what's happening in Iraq ... that's nothing compared to a real war.

Besides, even in a real war, most of the population doesn't fight. Vietnam (a much bigger war) saw about 3.5 million of the population serve. Why would they need poor weak old me when they have many much more able-bodied potential soldiers out there?

The military would have to be pretty desperate to draft me. I am easily fit enough, but I am too much of a free thinker. During the second world war, having existentialists contemplating the futility of Man's eternal struggle against himself was unavoidable. Not so today. Plus I am short-sighted in one eye.

But if it came to it, I would gladly fight, perhaps not for the UK (too pro-American) but certainly for the European Union. :D

http://www.mpa.gr/specials/copenhagen_results/images/E.jpg

I'd evade by any means necessary - given that I can't see clearly over any kind of distance without my glasses, hopefully I'd get out that way.

I believe that the entire concept of a military draft is morally wrong - if a war is "just", then people should be willing to fight it and the military ought to have enough people to fight the war properly.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

In my book (although the Supreme Court disagrees with me), the military draft qualifies as involuntary servitude. The Supreme Court argument was as follows:

As we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation, as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people, can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.

In normal English, the Supreme Court is saying that they can't even comprehend that somebody would find being forced to serve in the military to be involuntary service. :eyes:

The Liberal Unitary Republic of Goobergunchia
Founder, Democratic Underground (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Democratic_Underground) region
Making NationStates better since 17 May 2003

If the government tried to draft me, I'd know something is very wrong. Japan is a pacifist nation now, and I stand squarely with that.

Well I am too old now but yes I would.

From a long line of soldiers.....

However, I would probably not see combat as I used to work for the goverment and know a few things that want mentioned(ie from being a POW). So I would probably be a desk jocky somewhere.....

I'd go, but I wouldn't like it for other reasons. Someone else pointed out that not everyone is meant to be a soldier, which I firmly believe. I wouldn't want to serve with someone who didn't want to be there and I therefore couldn't count on to watch my back. The draft (though not by any means the largest or only reason) was a big part of why Vietnam went so poorly. That and politicians micromanaging the war instead of military control from the field. Though I digress, as Vietnam is an entirely different issue altogether.

That said, I wouldn't be drafted so it's a bit moot for me to speculate. First, I'm a woman and with the way things are right now, I don't see the draft opening to women anytime soon. That, and I'm already going into the service.

It is interesting to see how other people feel about this issue, though I can't say I'm surprized by the answers.

I'd go, but I wouldn't like it for other reasons. Someone else pointed out that not everyone is meant to be a soldier, which I firmly believe. I wouldn't want to serve with someone who didn't want to be there and I therefore couldn't count on to watch my back.


That was probably me! ;)

Well that would be just about everybody. Few people want to be in a war. Even many of the guys and gals in Iraq probably wish they were home. They do it because it is their duty and you have to respect them for that....


The draft (though not by any means the largest or only reason) was a big part of why Vietnam went so poorly. That and politicians micromanaging the war instead of military control from the field. Though I digress, as Vietnam is an entirely different issue altogether.


The draft was a byproduct of what went wrong. If the perception was victory then the views of the draft would have been different.


That said, I wouldn't be drafted so it's a bit moot for me to speculate. First, I'm a woman and with the way things are right now, I don't see the draft opening to women anytime soon. That, and I'm already going into the service.

Don't count on that. There are woman soldiers there now. Women have died there.

You could still be drafted and put at some job that a male was doing so he can go hump a weapon...

As to the need of the draft? I am not sold that it is for the need of soldiers. I am thinking it is more politics then need. If kids are getting drafted then many "God Bless America!" types would suddenly change their stance.

It's easy to be patriotic when you or family members don't have to go fight.

Now..people like you Berk I can respect...I've met a few honest to Gods peace advocates in my time..who sincerely believe that the taking of a life is wrong...that means you are against ALL wars on a moral grounds, not just ones in which a person might have political opposition too. People like you I can acknowledge your beliefs and move on..I spent over 2 decades learning how to kill someone or train kids to do it..but people like you are the yin to my yang...There will always be someone like you, and that is the natural order of things...one can not have an up without a down..a left without a right..hence you can not have war without peace.

It's these "Fair weather Conscientous Objectors" I have a problem with. Who never had a problem with wars or the military before..but suddenly due to their political affiliations or opposition to a particular war, be it Vietnam for my generation..Iraq for yours..they have an epiphany and try to claim CO status.

Thanks, Salishe, I appreciate that. I also respect you and enjoy reading your views (even though I rarely agree with them :D ). Still, you present them in an honest, well-thought out and sincere way that I enjoy and that makes me think, which is the whole point of this thing.

I also understand about the Fair Weather Conscientious Objectors as they sometimes bug me as well. Instead of taking a stand early on the process, when it might be dangerous and unpopular but ultimately sway the course of future events, they wait until they are directly affected to suddenly have a Come To Jesus moment. So instead of being out there trying to promote good policy and save lives when people are throwing things at us and hurling insults, they wait until it's their butt on the line and popular sentiment has been reversed. Still, I guess Johnny-Come-Lately is better than Johnny-Never-Came-At-All.

Sometimes it takes a crisis to make people think about their ultimate values, and what they are willing to pay for them.
Most people are caught up in the pressures of daily life and do not consider life-and-death issues until they are unavoidable.
Facing the draft can be a learning experience, learning about yourself, what you believe, and what you are willing to suffer for that belief.

Even though I can't be drafted, as I'm female, I would not. I'd leave the country.

I refuse to fight for ANYTHING I don't believe in, simple as that.

Hmm, this is a tricky one. I went for the last option- get into the mobile hopsitals and scrub toilets and bedpans for as long as I need to stay out of the line of fire.

I pretty much agree with what a lot of people have said so far along the lines of "I was born into my nation, and so there's no inherent reason to agree blindly with its government" and "I pay taxes*. What more do they want?!"

At the same time that doesn't mean that I'm opposed to all wars, because sometimes there is a definite right and wrong. For example the call "The Nazis are gassing their own people and destroying other nations, and soon they'll be after us!" is a valid call. In fact I think "Nation X's dictator has invaded peaceful democratic nation Y!" is valid too. However, something like "Tension between the great powers has increased dramatically over the past 40 years and noone's quite sure why, but we've got loads of weapons to fire and hell, someone shot someone else half way across the continent!" isn't a valid call. Neither is "Let's fight those commie bastards across the other side of the world in some thrid world country and at the same time neglect social issues at home!" or "We need oil and we can prove that a country that we've bombed every week for a decade and placed under sanctions is ready to kill us all!"

Of course, civilian casualties make things even trickier. An enforced democracy is better than a dictatorship, but if you have to get through tens of thousands of lives to achieve it then things get very difficult, and I'm glad I'm not the one to make that decision.

Finally, I'm a Brit so I think that an invasion isn't really likely in my lifetime. I remember my history teacher explaining how the Channel stopped the Nazis invading and claimed that this was the last time that "this tiny strip of water" would protect the UK. Personally I think it still has strategic value, since as far as I know amphibious attacks are still very difficult. (Feel free to prove me wrong! I'm quite ignorant of current military technology.) But if the UK got invaded it wouldn't take long. Since there are no friendly borders (the UK is surrounded by sea on all sides) except for Eire, which is weak and underpopulated then it would be nearly impossible to defend without external help. One of the major strategic advantages to somewhere like Germany and to less extent the USA is that there are so many friendly borders that troops can be placed where they will really make a difference rather than having to be spread out around the edge.

Aidan

*I'm a student so I don't pay taxes yet, but once I start earning I won't have any problem them. The government gives me free healthcare and subsidised education (it's not free, but it could be worse) so it's only fair that I give at least my fair share back.

If called I'd have to answer, someone else would have to take my place if I didn't and I'd have a harder time reconciling with that than any conflict over the reason for the war. But nobody said I had to go quietly and with todays communication technology I'd do my best to voice my opinion and objections loud and wide. I'd shout from the belly of the beast and do my best to change and influence it.

After all isn't that what a true patriot would do?

I doubt I would ever want to go to war

i would go to jail as a form of protest

i would go to jail as a form of protest

I decided to do that rather than run to Canada.

It's a way of saying I'm still a loyal American but that war is wrong.

I remember my history teacher explaining how the Channel stopped the Nazis invading and claimed that this was the last time that "this tiny strip of water" would protect the UK. Personally I think it still has strategic value, since as far as I know amphibious attacks are still very difficult. (Feel free to prove me wrong! I'm quite ignorant of current military technology.) But if the UK got invaded it wouldn't take long. Since there are no friendly borders (the UK is surrounded by sea on all sides) except for Eire, which is weak and underpopulated then it would be nearly impossible to defend without external help. One of the major strategic advantages to somewhere like Germany and to less extent the USA is that there are so many friendly borders that troops can be placed where they will really make a difference rather than having to be spread out around the edge.
Going waaay off topic . . .

An actual invasion of the UK would be quite impossible as amphibious operations on such a scale can only be mounted in the face of enormous casualties. Only the US and France have decent amphibious capabilities within reach of the UK, and the RAF, Fleet Air Arm and submarine fleet would most likely make such an invasion too costly to contemplate. It is countries with extensive land borders that are far more vulnerable to attack.

The only kind of state-on-state (ie formal non-terrorist) act of war that one can envisage the UK suffering is a Russian submarine using nuclear cruise missiles to hit Fylingdales and Menwith Hill, to knock out the US ABM shield and electronic monitoring capability prior to an all-out nuclear attack by the Strategic Rocket Forces. As you can imagine, things would have to be pretty extreme for that to happen.

Put simply, the technology available to the UK armed forces makes any form of invasion suicidal. The only imaginable security threats would be acts of terrorism or a knockout strike as a prelude to nuclear war.

Just a thought here- I'm not going to start a rant, because my views on conscription itself in a 'free' society are probably well known, but Salishe and others have made the comment about it being wrong for people like myself to expect the benefits of citizenship without being willing to preserve it (i.e. to do military service if asked). However, isn't the point about the draft that it takes that choice away- it's no longer about 'do the right thing', it's 'do as we say or go to jail'?
I can see (I don't quite agree with it, see above, but can see where you're coming from) where you're suggesting that it's morally right to be prepared to volunteer for military service (or other service, I'd certainly reject the idea that there's anything superior about service that involves killing the servicemen of other countries per se)... but that does not entail, as far as I can see, that it's morally justifiable for the government to pass laws forcing people to do this, whether or not they agree with the viewpoint.
Not a sparkplug for a flamewar, but I'd be interested to hear arguments on either side here.

I've already served. Would I do so again? Yes.

I am both a warrior and professional who will do anything to protect his family.

Where one is pacifistic, I will defend his right to be so.


Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

Ok... If 'IF' I was actually Drafted, I actually DO wish to support America, though I personally Loath killing... I would do 'Something' for what ever branch of the armed forces I was drafted into... Clerk, Cook, Janitor... But I can't kill anyone.. hounst, its just not in me... Give me a gun, and im more likely to shoot myself...

That said the topic is moot... I have one, Fool proof way of avoiding Going to war in any case... 'Don't ask, But im Telling'

How does a Christian reconcile the ten commandments and the gospels with fighting a war?

I didn't say I did, Why do you think I would go reluctantly? Also theres the whole 'Though shall not Kill' Thing... Thats why I'd beeg for a Non-Com postion... If im requierd by Law to 'serve my country' Then im going to do so without (hopefuly) touching a gun!

And like I said... If things go bad, I have an Easy out... :wink:

I doubt I would ever want to go to war

You would make a good soldier then: No soldier wants to go to war.
War is not a video game but so many of those fighting for me and you are children.

An old soldier salutes.

Jim

How does a Christian reconcile the ten commandments and the gospels with fighting a war?

Actually...the Commandment is "Thou shalt not murder"....the word isn't Kill...the Bible both Old and New Testaments attest to the fact that in some cases war is not only necessary but righteous in the sight of God.

How does a Christian reconcile the ten commandments and the gospels with fighting a war?

Actually...the Commandment is "Thou shalt not murder"....the word isn't Kill...the Bible both Old and New Testaments attest to the fact that in some cases war is not only necessary but righteous in the sight of God.

Right. A soldier does NOT murder. he just kills.
Jim

Very interesting topic.

The little I have to add to this might just serve to make some think.
For all those who say they wont go:
What happens when it comes to you? You will be happy for the weapon the government tried to teach you how to use.

I have never served in the military. I am in a unique group of people who, weren't old enough, when the draft was active, and was too old when it came back. Don't have a draft card and cannot get one.

If it came down to the point of America having to reinstitute the actual drafting of people, I would hope that it would be open to accept the older American who would be very willing to serve. It is the only possible way I have to get into the military. I am a heart patient. They kind of look at serving in the military, to be too stressful for a person like me. Draft comes back full force, they will not even notice that I have a zipper down the middle of my chest.

That said the topic is moot... I have one, Fool proof way of avoiding Going to warm anyways... 'Don't ask, But im Telling'
Yeah, I think in Greece, Catholics and homosexuals are supposed to be exempt from military service. So combining both would be ideal. A Greek Cypriot friend of mine told me that many guys would pretend to be gay to avoid compulsory military service. :lol:

To liberate Canada... and remove the North from North America hell yes. And someday, God willing, fight a war to reclaim and return home to MiddleEast America...stay tuned!

One thing you forgot to add is if there are those who would sign up voluntarily. Because if there is action that is taken by some foreign aggressor be it another nation or terrorists, and that action taken endangered my family, I would personally go over there and beat the living daylights out of those people who threatened my family's well being. They would get a taste of what well being when its being interfered with by an angry Texan.

I'm already in the Navy, so it's knid of a moot point.

"Yeah, I think in Greece, Catholics and homosexuals are supposed to be exempt from military service. "

Why on earth would Catholics be exempt? I can understand homosexuals being exempt for homophobic reasons but why catholics?

Two points I should make before people reply:

1. I am not homophobic, and as far as a recall the most famous Greek general in history, Alexander the Great, had a male lover, so which way you swing has no affect on your soldiering abilities.

2. I realise that the vast majority, (90%+) of Greeks are Greek Orthodox.

So why not allow them to join up? Because they have a conflict in religous loyalties? Does Greece want to declare war on the Vatican?

????????

:twisted:

The little I have to add to this might just serve to make some think.
For all those who say they wont go:
What happens when it comes to you? You will be happy for the weapon the government tried to teach you how to use.

No, I won't. I'm not "happy" with any weapon. My personal belief in individual divinity makes any harmful action against my fellow man, for whatever reason, a direct attack on the very stuff of God. However, even when I was searching for faith and was an athiest, I was still pacifist, as if there is no God, no after life, and we are here only at the incredible and marvellous whim of chance, that makes each individual human life all that more important and all that more sacred because once it's gone, it will NEVER be repeated and it is lost forever. I work hard every day and give of my time, my talents and my money to try and further the cause of peace in the world. If it came down to having to take a human life, though, I would rather lay my own down first. I will not fight for I feel it to be spiritually, morally and realistically wrong. I do understand that others have come to a different conclusion and I respect their rights to make their own decisions and in no way condemn those decisions. However, I would like to point out that sometimes it takes more courage to stand up for peace than to join the braying dogs of war.

How does a Christian reconcile the ten commandments and the gospels with fighting a war?

Actually...the Commandment is "Thou shalt not murder"....the word isn't Kill...the Bible both Old and New Testaments attest to the fact that in some cases war is not only necessary but righteous in the sight of God.

Right. A soldier does NOT murder. he just kills.
Jim
Like say..... chinese embassys, family's at checkpoints, Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Coventry, the Blitz, Auschwitz etc?

Every war since the invention of air bombing (and almost all before that too) has involved the killing of non-combatants which is not really murder because (insert desperate rationalisation here).

I wouldn't answer the calling, especially if by calling you mean enslaved for empire building. However I'd be the first to volunteer to defend anything I thought was worth defending.

The little I have to add to this might just serve to make some think.
For all those who say they wont go:
What happens when it comes to you? You will be happy for the weapon the government tried to teach you how to use.

No, I won't. I'm not "happy" with any weapon. My personal belief in individual divinity makes any harmful action against my fellow man, for whatever reason, a direct attack on the very stuff of God. However, even when I was searching for faith and was an athiest, I was still pacifist, as if there is no God, no after life, and we are here only at the incredible and marvellous whim of chance, that makes each individual human life all that more important and all that more sacred because once it's gone, it will NEVER be repeated and it is lost forever. I work hard every day and give of my time, my talents and my money to try and further the cause of peace in the world. If it came down to having to take a human life, though, I would rather lay my own down first. I will not fight for I feel it to be spiritually, morally and realistically wrong. I do understand that others have come to a different conclusion and I respect their rights to make their own decisions and in no way condemn those decisions. However, I would like to point out that sometimes it takes more courage to stand up for peace than to join the braying dogs of war.

I also would lay down that weapon.
I am not a coward eagerly accepting the benefits of the nsecurity provided by others. I do not want or ask for those benefits; I'd rather be punished.

Conscientious Bbjector-
Must be proven by religious ground our by swarn affidavit from several other people. You wouldn't serve on the front lines but you would either serve in the States on in Hospital/aide units.


I don't know about America, but in Britain (when they had conscription) it wasn't just religion. You could be a political conscientious objector. Of course, few people would get away with it, most were arrested. My Grandad was a CO for religious reasons, but his 'conditional' discharge was on the condition that he continued to work in the tripe factory he'd always worked in. Which was fine by him, but his boss (who didn't like COs) sacked him- despite making all his sons Chairmen so they didn't have to go to war- reserved professions. So when he went back to the Board, they put him into forced labour.

Current statutes in the US allow you to be a political CO as well as a religious CO. Or, more specifically, they state that one's objections need not be based in religion in order to qualify. However, it is much harder to substantiate.

No way! I would flee as soon as I could. Let me put it this way: I would build a vehicle powered exclusively by draft cards and flee.

----------------------
Free your mind!

No way! I would flee as soon as I could. Let me put it this way: I would build a vehicle powered exclusively by draft cards and flee.

----------------------
Free your mind!

Really...why not have the courage of your convictions and face the punisment reserved for that offense? I'd at least respect that, rather then running the coward's path.

Really...why not have the courage of your convictions and face the punisment reserved for that offense? I'd at least respect that, rather then running the coward's path.

The government is a terrorist organization in all but name. If avoiding its violent enforcement of its will is cowardice, then so is avoiding any form of terrorism.

Really...why not have the courage of your convictions and face the punisment reserved for that offense? I'd at least respect that, rather then running the coward's path.

The government is a terrorist organization in all but name. If avoiding its violent enforcement of its will is cowardice, then so is avoiding any form of terrorism.

Oh please..that is so much bull..you're saying the United States military are terrorists..that we kill civilians on purpose..if you truly believed in your convictions you'd do what a true believer would do..which is to accept any punishment...Martin Luther King did it..a hero of mine...

Oh please..that is so much bull..you're saying the United States military are terrorists..that we kill civilians on purpose..if you truly believed in your convictions you'd do what a true believer would do..which is to accept any punishment...Martin Luther King did it..a hero of mine...

The government uses armed men in blue suits to enforce its will. Those guns aren't just for show. They are terrorists. I will not oppose terrorism only to submit to it later.

--------------------------
Free your mind!

I do not like war, nor do I want one. However if you leave me with no other choice I will enter the military and fight for the good of the world!!!

I'd just get some job that has the least chance of going into battle. And yes, I am Jewish. :wink:

I do not like war, nor do I want one. However if you leave me with no other choice I will enter the military and fight for the good of the world!!!


Don't you mean the good of YOUR world?
After all, you don't know who's the 'bad guy' yet. What if it was a war between a future democratic Europe/ Liberal Arab alliance and a Fascist US/Israeli alliance? I think America is probably the only enemy who'd convince me to join the EuroArmy.






hehehehe, that should wind the up *sniggers*

Not that I'd ver be called, but my son has had to register, and I admit that talk of reinstating the draft has me worried sick!

Personally, if I were in a position to be called, I would have to claim conscientious objector status. I am a pacifist. My views are very in line with Quakers. My personal heroes are people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., who, in my view, taught us what can be accomplished with non-violent means.

"Johnny?"

"Yah"

"Can you answer the call"

"Ehem"

"Johnny?"

"Yah"

"Ready"

"Are we ever?"

"GHOSTBUSTER"

"GHOSTBUSTERS"

I'd go, but I'm sure they won't ask for me. :)

I'd go.

If it was under a Democrat.

I'd like to think the cause was just. I doubt anyone would want me in the foxhole next to them with a weapon. And I don't think I could handle killing unless it was a face-to-face him or me situation, but there are other ways I could serve my nation. I'd be a damn good chaplain.
That being said people are serving this country left and right every day and not just in the military. This country is more than just the government.

If it was under a Democrat.

If I can't live in the US without being sent to war (or punished for not going fighting a war), I'd rather not live here at all.
^^^^^
You are a coward....you hide behind the word pacifist. Answer me this?? If the war was in this country, in your state, in your own home town would you sitll sit by and say no i cant do it. Could you watch your family die and say no war is not for me. If you say yes to that not only are you a coward but you are also a liar

I'd go. Hell, if a draft was reinstated, I'd volunteer. I don't need the draft to get my ass in the military. I'm volunteering.

If there was a war large enough for the draft, I would go. I couldn't live with myself if I wussied out on a massive scale. I know it's stupid, I'm just like that.

My view on conscription -

I think it is only justified if a nations survival is at stake, that is, every able bodied young man and woman is needed to stop an invader.

For wars such as Iraq and Vietnam (no offence to vets, allot of my dads friends were in Nam) conscription is/was not justified becuase the US and Australia aren't actually facing any direct threats to their survival.

If they tried to make me go to Iraq I'd do my best to get out of it because I don't agree with that war.

If my country was actually faced with a direct threat I'd probably volunteer anyway.

I like Salishe's point about contributing to your country, that's something I agree with but it dosen't have to military service. I'm in the CFA (volunteer fire fighter) back in Australia, that's my way of contributing to my country.

mm, chances are i wouldn't get drafted till all the guys were. but just supposing that happened, i would most likely go to canada or mexico to evade it.

unless i completely 100% agreed with the cause, which is like impossible because i'm a pacifist, and then i would join most likely the coast guard.

If I can't live in the US without being sent to war (or punished for not going fighting a war), I'd rather not live here at all.
^^^^^
You are a coward....you hide behind the word pacifist. Answer me this?? If the war was in this country, in your state, in your own home town would you sitll sit by and say no i cant do it. Could you watch your family die and say no war is not for me. If you say yes to that not only are you a coward but you are also a liar

There is a big difference between being a coward and having half brain. You saying that the US is in mortal danger of being invaded? Grow up.

You'll find most people are willing to defend their nation but not all are willing to support what they see as unjust wars.

Really...why not have the courage of your convictions and face the punisment reserved for that offense? I'd at least respect that, rather then running the coward's path.

The government is a terrorist organization in all but name. If avoiding its violent enforcement of its will is cowardice, then so is avoiding any form of terrorism.

Oh please..that is so much bull..you're saying the United States military are terrorists..that we kill civilians on purpose..if you truly believed in your convictions you'd do what a true believer would do..which is to accept any punishment...Martin Luther King did it..a hero of mine...
What punishment? I don't get it. What do the people drafted that warrants the death penalty. I thought they did it by birthday or something
And before someone says "It's not death penalty, shut up" I'll go ahead and post- ok then, Involuntary Russian Roulette

If there was a war large enough for the draft, I would go. I couldn't live with myself if I wussied out on a massive scale. I know it's stupid, I'm just like that.
well what if it wasn't during a war at all? Or what if it's during this whole Iraq ordeal? People aren't volunteering to join the armed forces anymore, because the volunteers are getting trampled on (or because we've started thinking that living for yourself is more important than dying for your country or something- I guess I don't know exactly what everyone has in their minds) and they've been hiring for draft boards. In many countries all young people are required to serve a certain amount of time in the military, war or not. And before you say that would never happen here, read some of the previously posted links. It was already proposed in Congress.
By the way, I'm not trying to pick on you. I respect and,in fact, highly praise anyone who would be willing to go to war. The more of you there are, the less I have to worry about it

I don't live in America, but if I did, I don't think they would draft me because I'm gay. They haven't let gays in the military yet, have they? And I'm not going for all that 'don't ask, don't tell' shizzle. Now that is cowardly.


"Gays in the military . . . here's how I feel about it, alright? Anyone . . . DUMB enough . . . to want to be in the military, should be allowed in. End of f*cking story. That should be the only requirement."


haha. Of course, we're more liberal in Britian. Us gays are everywhere. Its a conspiracy! We're the mafia! Watch out for all those Pink Dons.

When i saw this topic i immediately thought of the Simpsons where Homer says:

"The call is from heroism, will you accept the charges?"

I'd go but I wouldn't like, I don't think anyone likes it. But if one runs or hides another is chosen, another who may be less able to run or hide. I couldn't live with thinking that by my refusal someone else inheritted my bad luck and died of it.I meant "wouldn't like it" in the sense that you'd dress up in womens clothing the whole time like that guy on mash or grab purple hearts on every little thinkg like john Kerry till you get sent home.

No, this isn't a kerry-bashing thread.. :)You just made it one--and maybe one day you'll have the balls he does. Read the actual military reports that were released today--here's a breakdown (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Kerry-Purple-Hearts.html?hp) of what was released--and then compare it to anyone on the Republican side who has criticized Kerry's war record. For that matter--compare it to your own, you little git.

Well i think McCaine has the most impressive service record of those I know in the Senate, course, there are probably still some WWII vets left in there as well.

Children:

Someone like me will ask you to fight the next war.

Meh.

The old plan the wars and the young fight the wars.

Jim

I'd anwser...heck if they still allowed private citizens to raise their own regiments..... :wink:

If I can't live in the US without being sent to war (or punished for not going fighting a war), I'd rather not live here at all.
^^^^^
You are a coward....you hide behind the word pacifist. Answer me this?? If the war was in this country, in your state, in your own home town would you sitll sit by and say no i cant do it. Could you watch your family die and say no war is not for me. If you say yes to that not only are you a coward but you are also a liar

If war came to my state, town, whatever, I'd hope I'd have courage enough to stick to my convictions.

There are many kinds of courage. Gandhi was courageous. Martin Luther King, Jr. was courageous. They could have chosen a different path, could have responded with violence, but didn't.

Being a pacifist is a belief...something I believe strongly.