NationStates Jolt Archive

Is Christianity the True Religion?

What do you think?

Which Christianity? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Roman Catholic? Lutheran? Anglican? Sorry, that's absurd. Methodist? Unitarian?

What an odd question.

Every religion that says that it's the one true religion should be extinct immediately.

Firstly Take your Pick.
Secondly It's only a Topic for discussion?

I believe. There is only one God. I am a christian.

I grew up Christian. I was considering becoming a minister. Not anymore. Now I'm more of an agnostic than anything else. I've seen too many contradictions in fundementalist principle to believe in that. Dogmatic atheists are no better. While one group is too blind to see they aren't even acting by the tenets of their own religion, the other group (i.e. the dogmatic atheists) force themselves to see only what is directly before them. I'm not sayin all Christians are fundementalists or that all atheists are dogmatic. But neither extreme is any better than the other. We have no proof either way. And please please please, I've seen too many people try to prove God by quoting the Bible. This is really great for convincing people who are already Christians that God exists...

yes it is... to christians

it is truely a religion, I can say that much with certainty.

Only the religion of the Pink Pony is the true religion. All others are blasphemers and heresies. All people who worship those heresies will be sent the the insignificant white rabbit of large nasty sharp teeth. Convert now and save yourself, go to the Pink Pony of eternal bliss!

no religion is "true," therefore it is not possible for Christianity to be "true."

Lies! The Pink Pony is the true god! Blasphemer! :)

I feel that Budhism, Hinduism and Taoism offer more truth than christianity.

Lies! The Pink Pony is the true god! Blasphemer! :)

*GASP* you're right! I SEE THE LIGHT!!!

All glory to the Pink Pony (blessed be his holy hooves)! We follow only the Pink Pony (may his mane be free of tangles), and we shall smite the heathen who question the sacred word of the Most Holy Equine!!!

Sorry but no religion has nailed it yet. So far the closest ones are the Hindus. In the end though it doesn’t really matter what you believe, but how you live.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

You are all her worshippers even if you don't believe. Look around there is chaos everywhere, it is all her doing, and all humans do is propagate the chaos!!


Seriously. For a religion to be 'true' ultimate truth must exist, which is also a subject for debate. But I think all religions are 'true' in that they have truth in them, but I don't think that any religion is the one true religion. I think if there is god it would want us to respect each other and treat each other with dignity rather than be worshipped. After all, why would God want to be worshipped and need to be believed in? Either God has a big inferioty complex (being onmiscient, onmipresent and onmipotent are enough to satisfy it), or we live in a Prattchettian universe.

Various double posts cleared up.

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett,
All religions are true.
But only for a given value of "true".

Christianity? true?

I laugh

although any other religons have a bigger chance of being true. Although we'll never find out till we die. simple as that

I would have to say Taoism for the best one. But I don't like religion. So, I'm a non-religious Agnostic.

although any other religons have a bigger chance of being true. Although we'll never find out till we die. simple as that

very true - we won't find out until we die. For this reason, from a purely logical point of view, to be an atheist or agnositc makes absolutely no sense.
Once you are dead it is too late!

I dont see how. There are three major ones. And the Jews and the Moslims think that the Christians are Nucking Futs. Majority rules.

the goddess Errata is the Goddess of Unfortunate Coincidences, and I am her one true follower. Well, me and Malaclypse. Don't listen to those Anu-Anu obsessed cultists. theyre all quite quite maaad!j

Christianity as it stands today is full of holes, and filled with problems and corruption in it's hierarchies.

The Christian Religions of the world (with the exception of very very very few sects) are just collected pieces of the shattered Church that was left on the Earth after the apostles died. Christianity today has none of the same power it once had in Biblical times... No prophets, No apostles, no miracles... just a bunch of wicked priests or con artists calling themselves televangelists.

Just look at how much of Christianity is based on "one's own interpretation of the bible," and how many people try to take stuff out of context to justify their sins.

They love to leave Christ out of their decisions... it's insane, and wicked.

Christianity today is something Christ would be ashamed of.

Im a Latter-Day Saint btw... but most would not call us Christians, and in this case when I say "Christian" I mean a Catholic-derived church.

the goddess Errata is the Goddess of Unfortunate Coincidences, and I am her one true follower. Well, me and Malaclypse. Don't listen to those Anu-Anu obsessed cultists. theyre all quite quite maaad!j

It's Eris goddessdammit. Errata is a mistake.

Christianity as it stands today is full of holes, and filled with problems and corruption in it's hierarchies.

The Christian Religions of the world (with the exception of very very very few sects) are just collected pieces of the shattered Church that was left on the Earth after the apostles died. Christianity today has none of the same power it once had in Biblical times... No prophets, No apostles, no miracles... just a bunch of wicked priests or con artists calling themselves televangelists.

Just look at how much of Christianity is based on "one's own interpretation of the bible," and how many people try to take stuff out of context to justify their sins.

They love to leave Christ out of their decisions... it's insane, and wicked.

Christianity today is something Christ would be ashamed of.

Im a Latter-Day Saint btw... but most would not call us Christians, and in this case when I say "Christian" I mean a Catholic-derived church.

Don't you leave Christ out of you r decisions too?

With you rvarious condemnations of perfectly natural things?

Christianity as it stands today is full of holes, and filled with problems and corruption in it's hierarchies.

The Christian Religions of the world (with the exception of very very very few sects) are just collected pieces of the shattered Church that was left on the Earth after the apostles died. Christianity today has none of the same power it once had in Biblical times... No prophets, No apostles, no miracles... just a bunch of wicked priests or con artists calling themselves televangelists.

Just look at how much of Christianity is based on "one's own interpretation of the bible," and how many people try to take stuff out of context to justify their sins.

They love to leave Christ out of their decisions... it's insane, and wicked.

Christianity today is something Christ would be ashamed of.

Im a Latter-Day Saint btw... but most would not call us Christians, and in this case when I say "Christian" I mean a Catholic-derived church.

Right on, tell it sister/

christianity is flawed mainly because a large quantity of its rules and guidance were created out of hatred for the romans. and therefore are a little odd now.

I dont see how. There are three major ones. And the Jews and the Moslims think that the Christians are Nucking Futs. Majority rules.

All I said is that having no belief does not make logical sense. I made no claims for any particular belief.

christianity is flawed mainly because a large quantity of its rules and guidance were created out of hatred for the romans. and therefore are a little odd now.

And Ironically i think that Also another major problem with it is that Rome, A giant organised state converted to it.

Christianity as it stands today is full of holes, and filled with problems and corruption in it's hierarchies.

The Christian Religions of the world (with the exception of very very very few sects) are just collected pieces of the shattered Church that was left on the Earth after the apostles died. Christianity today has none of the same power it once had in Biblical times... No prophets, No apostles, no miracles... just a bunch of wicked priests or con artists calling themselves televangelists.

Just look at how much of Christianity is based on "one's own interpretation of the bible," and how many people try to take stuff out of context to justify their sins.

They love to leave Christ out of their decisions... it's insane, and wicked.

Christianity today is something Christ would be ashamed of.

Im a Latter-Day Saint btw... but most would not call us Christians, and in this case when I say "Christian" I mean a Catholic-derived church.

Don't you leave Christ out of you r decisions too?

With you rvarious condemnations of perfectly natural things?...you just answered your own question.

Do ask what Christ thinks, instead of what nature or satan urges, is my exact point.

The Natural man is an enemy to God. Nature is a major tempting force in the Universe.

oh and buddhism makes sense, so much so that pure buddhism not convaluted by the additions made to it over the centuries is not really a religion at all.

Christianity as it stands today is full of holes, and filled with problems and corruption in it's hierarchies.

The Christian Religions of the world (with the exception of very very very few sects) are just collected pieces of the shattered Church that was left on the Earth after the apostles died. Christianity today has none of the same power it once had in Biblical times... No prophets, No apostles, no miracles... just a bunch of wicked priests or con artists calling themselves televangelists.

Just look at how much of Christianity is based on "one's own interpretation of the bible," and how many people try to take stuff out of context to justify their sins.

They love to leave Christ out of their decisions... it's insane, and wicked.

Christianity today is something Christ would be ashamed of.

Im a Latter-Day Saint btw... but most would not call us Christians, and in this case when I say "Christian" I mean a Catholic-derived church.

Right on, tell it sister/*kicks* I AM A GUY

Which Christianity? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Roman Catholic? Lutheran? Anglican? Sorry, that's absurd. Methodist? Unitarian?

What an odd question.

Lol. You Christians are so stupid. So completly distracted by your politically wrought divisions that you can't wrap your head around a simple question.
The question is, am I able to overlook the salient discrepencies, flaws, slanders, and unoriginalities that riddle my dogmatic human deifying views, or am I cogniscent of the world around me and not afraid of my mortality.
Besides, everyone knows Jesus stole his idea from the Mithraic cult and Pythagorus.
Just shut your egocentric indoctrined brain damaged traps, and let us scientists take care of you.

:?: Or maybe you liked the dark ages better when you thought the devil caused head colds and that women were evil and cursed because they had periods?

although any other religons have a bigger chance of being true. Although we'll never find out till we die. simple as that

very true - we won't find out until we die. For this reason, from a purely logical point of view, to be an atheist or agnositc makes absolutely no sense.
Once you are dead it is too late!

I am reminded of Woody Allen's observation : "to you I am an atheist, to God I am the loyal opposition".

I am an agnostic.

I consider that if a God or Gods (insert Godess or Godesses if so inclined) exist, and are at all interested in passing judgement on mortals, then the question of that mortal's particular belief system would rank low in comparison with the way they have lived.

Those who burn witches or heretics or perform human sacrafice in some other way are totally convinced of the existence of their God/s, yet to me are behaving in an immoral manner.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904108.html

I'm afraid Islam and Judaism don't constitute a majority. Christianity has about as many followers are the next two largest religions combined--Islam and Hindu. And when do the Hindus and Muslims agree on ANYTHING? [Case and point: Kashmir]

We Jews are just .2% of the worldwide population.

Of course, we all vote ;)

you just answered your own question.

Do ask what Christ thinks, instead of what nature or satan urges, is my exact point.

The Natural man is an enemy to God. Nature is a major tempting force in the Universe.

How is the natural man the enemy is God. That makes as much sense as a wild animal is the enemy of God.

Are you telling me that you are never judgemental, always turn the other cheek, do unto other as you would like to be done unto yourself. Are you saying that you are compassionate, mercifull, humble and accept every human being for what they are rather than what (in your opinion) they should be?

Personally, I believe in one Creator that people interpret differently.

Some, like the Greeks and Romans, give a different name and identity to each facet of It (i.e. god of sun, goddess of wisdom); others say there is one continuous God (I'm of this persusion).

And, aww...
"Christianity today is something Christ would be ashamed of."
:cry:

Well, there are good people and bad people - Christians definetley aren't exempt from that. Just so long as we realize that, and try to use (genuine) love to improve, we're at least stepping in the right direction.

About Christianity being the one true religion: Any religion that feels they need to go door to door converting people must be a dying or failing religion. They can't get people out of the blue, so they have to go door to door.

I know that this is not true of all Christianity, but it is true of some branches of it, which lead me to believe that Christianity is failing.

Also, if Christianity was the one true religion, why are there new religions springing up everywhere (i.e. Jedi in Britain - I think that's what it was) and why is Paganism growing?

Just my two cents.

First, some of the people posting seem to be basing thier beliefs off of what they have seen other Christains say and do. Many Christians are rather hypocrytical, some lie cheat and steal and do twist verses in the Bible for thier own use. To look and a human, however, and base what you think about a religion on them is wrong. If you want to find out about a religion or form any opinions on it, then you should take it from the source, the Bible.
Second, my mother was raised aethiest. She ended up reading all the major holy books from all different kidns of religions, especially the major ones. In the end, she chose Christianity and thus wanted me to be and raised me Christian as well.
Thirdly, as a Christian, I am so incredibly happy. You could threaten my life and i would never sway in my belief. Christianity makes me happy and is thus my truth. And since "truth," as many people have said, is very obscure, then all that really matters is finding one's own truth, right?

just answered your own question.

Do ask what Christ thinks, instead of what nature or satan urges, is my exact point.

The Natural man is an enemy to God. Nature is a major tempting force in the Universe.

wait, so Nature can trump God's will? so God didn't create Nature as He wanted it to be? He doesn't want humans to act in the way that He designed them to act? He wants humans to ignore the urges that have allowed their species to survive and thrive?

wow, religion makes less and less sense every time i talk to religious people...

just answered your own question.

Do ask what Christ thinks, instead of what nature or satan urges, is my exact point.

The Natural man is an enemy to God. Nature is a major tempting force in the Universe.

wait, so Nature can trump God's will? so God didn't create Nature as He wanted it to be? He doesn't want humans to act in the way that He designed them to act? He wants humans to ignore the urges that have allowed their species to survive and thrive?

wow, religion makes less and less sense every time i talk to religious people...wow, you know absolutely nothing about Christianity.

Under that logic, God should let Satan tempt us, and we should all live perfect pre-destined lives, and everyone gets saved, everyone gets exhalted, and no one learns or experiences a bloody thing.

God created this Earth, and it's inhabitants, in an imperfect state, that we might BECOME perfect. You can't get Diamonds without heat and pressure.

no religion is "true," therefore it is not possible for Christianity to be "true."

Couple of questions:

Why the speech marks around 'true'?
Why can no religion be "true"?
Can secular humanism (frex) be "true"?

Does this assertion of yours just hinge on epistemological concerns?

You can't get Diamonds without heat and pressure.

Well, if you are a deity who is capable of ex nihilo creation you can just make diamonds...

You can't get Diamonds without heat and pressure.

Well, if you are a deity who is capable of ex nihilo creation you can just make diamonds...Just because God CAN do something by no means says he has to do something.

God is our father. he is a parent. He doesn't spoil us. He wants us to LEARN. He wants us to GROW. He wants us to experience Joy.

We can not learn, grow, or know joy, if there is no experience, trial, or misery.

There must needs be opposition in all things.

He wants us to LEARN. He wants us to GROW. He wants us to experience Joy.


Is this for our benefit, His benefit, or the benefit of the knowledge and the joy itself?

Regarding this thing called "God": I have learned from various sources that He/She/It is supposed to be omiscient (all seeing), omnipresent (ever present), omnipotent (all powerful), and benevolent.

Let's take a look at an example, let's say the events of 9/11:
If God was omniscient, He/She/It saw it happening. If God was omnipresent, He/She/It was there when it was happening. If God was omnipotent, He/She/It could have done something about it. If God was benevolent, why didn't He/She/It do anything about it? If He/She/It was unable to do anything about it, He/She/It would not be omnipresent, and if He/She/It chose not to do anything about it, He/She/It was not benevolent. I am confused.

Can God make a rock so large that He/She/It cannot lift or move it?

"First, there was nothing. Then, God said, 'Let there be light.' There was still nothing, but at least now you could see it."

I pose a question to you all, if christianity is not the "true" religion than why have so many of the foreseeings in the Bible come true over the past few years? Not even you can deny that.

In fact, one of the propheicies in there states, "...And the wicked who kill there own people will be pulled from a hole in the ground by one of the great leaders of the day." This was written over 1,000 years ago and it has now come true with the capturing of Saddam, look it up yourself, it is in there along with hundreds of others that have come true as well.

no religion is "true," therefore it is not possible for Christianity to be "true."

Couple of questions:

Why the speech marks around 'true'?
Why can no religion be "true"?
Can secular humanism (frex) be "true"?

Does this assertion of yours just hinge on epistemological concerns?

i put marks around "true" because i think that in many areas (like morality) there is no objective truth.

no religion can be true in the sense that superstition and blind faith are not based on understanding of the realities of the universe, but rather on cunstructed fables. those fables are "true" in so far as they are accepted by the minds of the believers; it's like the placebo effect, in the sense that faith is as real as the mind makes it. objective truth cannot exist in a subjective sphere of belief, hence religious faith can never be synonymous with truth.

secular humanism is more of a philosophy than a faith, and can be "true" or "false" depending on what other beliefs it is blended with. many Christians are also humanists, though not secular ones obviously, and many secular humanists have quite conflicting views on the nature of existence and reality.

He wants us to LEARN. He wants us to GROW. He wants us to experience Joy.


Is this for our benefit, His benefit, or the benefit of the knowledge and the joy itself?OUR BENEFIT! Jeez, practically everything God ever does is for our benefit! Where have you been?

I pose a question to you all, if christianity is not the "true" religion than why have so many of the foreseeings in the Bible come true over the past few years? Not even you can deny that.

In fact, one of the propheicies in there states, "...And the wicked who kill there own people will be pulled from a hole in the ground by one of the great leaders of the day." This was written over 1,000 years ago and it has now come true with the capturing of Saddam, look it up yourself, it is in there along with hundreds of others that have come true as well.Christianity in this thread is defined as: Catholic and Catholic-Derived Sects of Christianity.

CC you are wrong, I am Baptist, though it is christian we have many deffierent beliefs than the catholics.

i put marks around "true" because i think that in many areas (like morality) there is no objective truth.

Fair enough, but this assumes that all religions must contain ethical imperatives (or at least ethical imperatives without caveats which mark them as, at best, provisional).

Do you believe that morality (outside of our subjective beliefs) actually exists?

no religion can be true in the sense that superstition and blind faith are not based on understanding of the realities of the universe, but rather on cunstructed fables.

Do you agree that scientific thought is also just based on a constructed fable - one which is certainly productive and powerful as an explicatory tool, but constructed on the basis of unprovable assumptions?

There is no such thing as a "true" religion



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http://www.blurbco.com/~gork/random/ignignot.gif
"Everyone, please, bow your heads, and pretend to be serious."

About Christianity being the one true religion: Any religion that feels they need to go door to door converting people must be a dying or failing religion. They can't get people out of the blue, so they have to go door to door.

I know that this is not true of all Christianity, but it is true of some branches of it, which lead me to believe that Christianity is failing.

Also, if Christianity was the one true religion, why are there new religions springing up everywhere (i.e. Jedi in Britain - I think that's what it was) and why is Paganism growing?

Just my two cents.

Since when do christians go door to door? If by some branches of christianity, you mean Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses then yes, they do go door to door, altough i wouldnt consider them christians at all. And these groups arent the only groups that try and preach to you, ever been to the airport with the Hare Krishnas? The fact that new religions are springing up everywhere actually adds to the validity of Christianity seeing as how the bible says that new false religions will constantly be springing up.

i put marks around "true" because i think that in many areas (like morality) there is no objective truth.

Fair enough, but this assumes that all religions must contain ethical imperatives (or at least ethical imperatives without caveats which mark them as, at best, provisional).

Do you believe that morality (outside of our subjective beliefs) actually exists?


no. i don't believe morality is an objective truth.


no religion can be true in the sense that superstition and blind faith are not based on understanding of the realities of the universe, but rather on cunstructed fables.

Do you agree that scientific thought is also just based on a constructed fable - one which is certainly productive and powerful as an explicatory tool, but constructed on the basis of unprovable assumptions?

yes and no; empirical science functions with limitations, the most obvious one being the assumption of materialism, but it also admits and respects those limitations in a way that faith does not. science is testable, and documents exceptions and cases where theory would not hold true, whereas faith does not.

most importantly, even if materialism is an illusion it is still one that is shared by all human life; as far as humans are concerned, materialism IS reality, so the illusion factor can be discounted when discussing human Truth. hence material science is able to approach Truth, but faith is not. this does not mean that science necessarily WILL approach truth, simply that it might...faith never has that potential, so i find it far less interesting.

wait, so Nature can trump God's will? so God didn't create Nature as He wanted it to be? He doesn't want humans to act in the way that He designed them to act? He wants humans to ignore the urges that have allowed their species to survive and thrive?


Judaism holds that God made man imperfectly, but with the capacity and desire to seek and achieve perfection. He did so because a man who recieves everything by charity feels shame around his benefactor. Since God does not want humankind shamed, he gave them a goal to aspire to.

I pose a question to you all, if christianity is not the "true" religion than why have so many of the foreseeings in the Bible come true over the past few years? Not even you can deny that.

In fact, one of the propheicies in there states, "...And the wicked who kill there own people will be pulled from a hole in the ground by one of the great leaders of the day." This was written over 1,000 years ago and it has now come true with the capturing of Saddam, look it up yourself, it is in there along with hundreds of others that have come true as well.

Hey, hey! I shall write a prediction. *ahem* "In one day, we shall be breathing." *Looks around* ooh, ooh, if it comes true, I'm the one true religion! yay!

And yes, all hail the Pink Pony, Eris, and the thing growing under my bed.

I, personally, am an atheist. But a special kind. There's probably a word for it that I don't know, but that's okay. I personally believe that we all create our own universes. These universes effect each other, of course. But what we really beieve is real is real for us. So, if you believe that there's a pink pony controlling us all, then in your universe there is a pink pony controlling you. And if you believe that when you die you'll go to heaven, when you die, you will go to your vision of heaven.I personally expect to go to a magical lands where everything is made of telephones, and you can eat all the clouds you want without any nasty ol' clowns to mess it up!

Okay, so I made that last part up. But I got my point accross.

CC you are wrong, I am Baptist, though it is christian we have many deffierent beliefs than the catholics.Catholicism: A collection of shattered truths mixed with interpretation and philosophy into a religion.

Baptistism and other protestant religions: Derived from Catholicism, just with different interpretations.

"Christianity" is far from it's namesake. I seriously don't think Christ's Church would practice Racist/homophobic Lynchings, Holy Wars and crusades, class discrimination, fornication, rape, child molestation, paid clergy, corrupt charities, pride, divine right of kings, and imperialism.

And Baclumi: For the sake of this argument, I am not calling Mormons Christian... that's another matter.

Regarding this thing called "God": I have learned from various sources that He/She/It is supposed to be omiscient (all seeing), omnipresent (ever present), omnipotent (all powerful), and benevolent.

Let's take a look at an example, let's say the events of 9/11:
If God was omniscient, He/She/It saw it happening. If God was omnipresent, He/She/It was there when it was happening. If God was omnipotent, He/She/It could have done something about it. If God was benevolent, why didn't He/She/It do anything about it? If He/She/It was unable to do anything about it, He/She/It would not be omnipresent, and if He/She/It chose not to do anything about it, He/She/It was not benevolent. I am confused.

Can God make a rock so large that He/She/It cannot lift or move it?

"First, there was nothing. Then, God said, 'Let there be light.' There was still nothing, but at least now you could see it."

The answer is free will. God gave all humans the choice to do what is right or wrong. Otherwise we would all be slaves to God only doing what is right, and i dont think God wants that, he wants us to be able to choose, that is why he created us with the ability to choose. Think about it, if God didnt want us to choose, then everytime you were about to do something wrong, God would somehow pluck you out of that situation, so hold you back by some invisible forcefield, then we would be nothing but robots without choice. Would you rather be a slave to God, or be able to choose to do what is right and wrong?

wait, so Nature can trump God's will? so God didn't create Nature as He wanted it to be? He doesn't want humans to act in the way that He designed them to act? He wants humans to ignore the urges that have allowed their species to survive and thrive?


Judaism holds that God made man imperfectly, but with the capacity and desire to seek and achieve perfection. He did so because a man who recieves everything by charity feels shame around his benefactor. Since God does not want humankind shamed, he gave them a goal to aspire to.

i actually kind of like that, it's a nice way to look at the situation. but it still doesn't explain why the desires that have helped humans survive for thousands of years would be exactly the drives that God DOESN'T want us following...that seems a bit backwards, to me. if God didn't want us to need those desires, if He wanted us to be able to rise above them, then why make them necessary and inherent for our survival and development?

If life were easy and effortless, what would we gain? What good comes from nothingness?

If life were easy and effortless, what would we gain? What good comes from nothingness?

why are you asking that?

If life were easy and effortless, what would we gain? What good comes from nothingness?

why are you asking that?many people are asking why God doesn't just solve all our problems and make life perfect.

If life were easy and effortless, what would we gain? What good comes from nothingness?

why are you asking that?many people are asking why God doesn't just solve all our problems and make life perfect.

ahh...gotcha. i was a little lost for a second there. i certainly agree that if there was a God it would be no fun at all if He/She/It solved all human problems from the get-go. we'd never learn a thing, and there really wouldn't have been any point for Him/Her/It to create us to begin with.

Damn. I was hoping for a good meaty argument, but I think we are too much in agreement for that on this issue.

no. i don't believe morality is an objective truth.


yes and no; empirical science functions with limitations, the most obvious one being the assumption of materialism, but it also admits and respects those limitations in a way that faith does not.

It should be noted, however, that for some, paradoxically, the doubt which runs through and seeks to undermine their faith is the very source of that faith. See Kierkegaard for the run down here.

most importantly, even if materialism is an illusion it is still one that is shared by all human life; as far as humans are concerned, materialism IS reality, so the illusion factor can be discounted when discussing human Truth.

Materialism isn't reality for all humans - certainly the illusion of materiality is immediate, but that does not stop us attempting to ask questions of the noumena or formulating Idealist conceptions of reality.

If anything the C20th's move away from crass materialism makes this less of an issue than it was in earlier times.

hence material science is able to approach Truth, but faith is not. this does not mean that science necessarily WILL approach truth, simply that it might...faith never has that potential, so i find it far less interesting.

Faith is able to approach *TRUTH*, but that is a truth which is defined by internalist epistemological concerns.

Even if science were to be able to go beyond its asymptotic approach towards truth and attain *TRUTH*, it will still never know that it has reached that point - merely that it is no longer currently discovering new things nor disproving what it currently believes.

If life were easy and effortless, what would we gain? What good comes from nothingness?

So is the whole shebang all for our benefit, not God's?

If life were easy and effortless, what would we gain? What good comes from nothingness?

So is the whole shebang all for our benefit, not God's?We grow, we evolve, we learn, we perfect, we make our father proud.

It's an equal benefit.

I know, some religions teach that the ONLY reason we are here is to make some unknown God happy... We get a lot out of this too, if we endure to the end.

We grow, we evolve, we learn, we perfect, we make our father proud.

It's an equal benefit.

I know, some religions teach that the ONLY reason we are here is to make some unknown God happy... We get a lot out of this too, if we endure to the end.

Does this not conflict somewhat with Christianity's* attack on self-centredness? Is the whole point not to 'toil and ask for no reward'? The way you are describing it here an argument could be made that I should live a good and a holy life, not for the sake of being good and holy, but just because of the benefits that I get out of it, no?






*I am assuming you are a Christian, apologies if you are not.

God is our father. he is a parent. He doesn't spoil us. He wants us to LEARN. He wants us to GROW. He wants us to experience Joy.Have you never considered the niavety of assuming a supreme being or unifying force has human 'wants' and concerns. You talk of God like a person, Raysia. I think thats a little presumtious of mankind and is precisly why I don't believe any religion is the 'true religion'. No religion I know of honestly addresses the uncertainty and ignorance of mankind in the grand scheme of things. They just 'explain' all the unknowns with fairy tales we're supposed to accept on faith, and tell us there's 'someone' out there who not only is aware of us and thinks we're significant, but cares for us and looks after us. The truth is, mankind created 'God' in his own image, not the other way around.

Damn. I was hoping for a good meaty argument, but I think we are too much in agreement for that on this issue.


lol, don't you just HATE when that happens?!

It should be noted, however, that for some, paradoxically, the doubt which runs through and seeks to undermine their faith is the very source of that faith. See Kierkegaard for the run down here.


true, and i have a great deal more respect for those who admit and welcome doubt as a test of their beliefs. the problem is that faith cannot be tested, by definition, so doubt cannot actually be resolved without simply embracing an act of faith yet again...that becomes somewhat circular.


most importantly, even if materialism is an illusion it is still one that is shared by all human life; as far as humans are concerned, materialism IS reality, so the illusion factor can be discounted when discussing human Truth.

Materialism isn't reality for all humans - certainly the illusion of materiality is immediate, but that does not stop us attempting to ask questions of the noumena or formulating Idealist conceptions of reality.

If anything the C20th's move away from crass materialism makes this less of an issue than it was in earlier times.


hmm, perhaps some confusion with terms here...i was refering to materialism as the theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena. i think you might have been refering to more modern conceptions of materialism, tying to the attitude that physical well-being and worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life. there is a subtle yet critical difference to these, since one deals merely with the empirical reality of human existence but the other tries to use that empiricism to define value...value is subjective, so it's a whole other ball game when you get into that area.


hence material science is able to approach Truth, but faith is not. this does not mean that science necessarily WILL approach truth, simply that it might...faith never has that potential, so i find it far less interesting.

Faith is able to approach *TRUTH*, but that is a truth which is defined by internalist epistemological concerns.

Even if science were to be able to go beyond its asymptotic approach towards truth and attain *TRUTH*, it will still never know that it has reached that point - merely that it is no longer currently discovering new things nor disproving what it currently believes.

i guess i just don't believe that the "truth" you suggest faith pursues is actually truth. but that's a matter of perspective, and i don't claim to have a corner on that market.

i don't actually think that any system of human pursuit, scientific or otherwise, will attain Truth with a capital T, because i don't believe that limited human cognition can perceive Truth in its entirety. however, i don't believe there will ever be an end to science in terms it reaching some sort of plateau of discovery...science is self-renewing, since every question answered provides new ways to ask new questions.

We grow, we evolve, we learn, we perfect, we make our father proud.

It's an equal benefit.

I know, some religions teach that the ONLY reason we are here is to make some unknown God happy... We get a lot out of this too, if we endure to the end.

Does this not conflict somewhat with Christianity's* attack on self-centredness? Is the whole point not to 'toil and ask for no reward'? The way you are describing it here an argument could be made that I should live a good and a holy life, not for the sake of being good and holy, but just because of the benefits that I get out of it, no?

*I am assuming you are a Christian, apologies if you are not.It is very much possible to strive for perfection and aspiring to be the best child of God you can be, and be the best neighbor and friend you can be, and still remain humble and without pride. but there is that inherent challenge not to fall into pride and get that whole 'holier than thou' appearance that ticks off basically everyone, especially God.

just a thing I found interesting.

I go to a catholic school, even though I'm not Catholic or particularly religous in any sense. During our Christian Ethics class this year (required, Junior Year) we found out that Catholic Teaching says our life is god's life and god's life is our life. The two are interconnected and one. So, according to that logic, it means when we sin, god sins. And if god sins, he is not perfect, therefore, not god.

Thoughts. . .


All hail the Pink Pony, lord and savior of all.

just a thing I found interesting.

I go to a catholic school, even though I'm not Catholic or particularly religous in any sense. During our Christian Ethics class this year (required, Junior Year) we found out that Catholic Teaching says our life is god's life and god's life is our life. The two are interconnected and one. So, according to that logic, it means when we sin, god sins. And if god sins, he is not perfect, therefore, not god.

Thoughts. . .


All hail the Pink Pony, lord and savior of all.*sigh* Too much wrong with that to even break it down.

Like I said, Catholicism is based far too much on the interpretations and philosophies of men.

That is just what my Ethics teacher told us. The rest was my own deduction according to his logic.

I personally don't give a damn if christianity is true or not. As long as it doesn't affect others, people can do whatever the hell they want.

I personally don't give a damn if christianity is true or not. As long as it doesn't affect others, people can do whatever the hell they want.Ah, but a big part of Christianity is affecting others.

just a thing I found interesting.

I go to a catholic school, even though I'm not Catholic or particularly religous in any sense. During our Christian Ethics class this year (required, Junior Year) we found out that Catholic Teaching says our life is god's life and god's life is our life. The two are interconnected and one. So, according to that logic, it means when we sin, god sins. And if god sins, he is not perfect, therefore, not god.

Thoughts. . .


All hail the Pink Pony, lord and savior of all.*sigh* Too much wrong with that to even break it down.

Like I said, Catholicism is based far too much on the interpretations and philosophies of men. :roll: All religions are based upon the interpretations and philosophies of man. (perhaps you missed my post above) Since it is impossible to know the true nature of any supreme being and organized religion won't acknowledge that it probably is outside the conceptual understanding of mankind anyway, what else is there?

hmm, perhaps some confusion with terms here...i was refering to materialism as the theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.

So was I, but not in a particularly clear manner.

I was taking issue with your assertion that for all humans materialism is reality. I think that for most humans there still exists that uneasy dualist hodge-podge. Certainly most people will agree that tables and chairs are material, but they will also assert that minds are something beyond this and grant them a separate status as spirit/ideal/soul/whatever. The philosphical problems that this causes are well known, and needn't be gone into here, but within popular culture and popular consciousness it appears to be the default position.

I was also pointing out that the very fact that we have been able to create philosophies that explain the world not in terms of the material, but in terms of the ideal or the noumenal or even such mongrel forms as in Spinoza's body/thought attribute system, shows that we are not bound by the idea of the material as real, even if it appears more immediately to us.

My reference to 'crass materialism' was not a comment on political or ethical materialism, all though it uses a term co-opted from there, but was instead a comment on the 20th centuries realisation that we do not need to simply limit our conception of the stuff of the world or plenum to a material one: all that matters is the power of the explicatory model. Thus, if we find that describing the world in terms of indivisible atoms becomes limiting, we can shift to a model which allows divisible atoms, and if that becomes limiting, then we can shift to a model which explains the world in terms of probability equations or pure mathematical operations.

It is no longer important for science to try and explain the world in terms of hard, resistant objects which we can touch or perceive (ie. a crass form of materialism), but what remains of prime importance is that the model we use to explain the world is one which avoids the philosophical problems of dualism. In a way it can be seen to be a return to Spinoza's view - there is the stuff of the world, and it doesn't really matter whether we call it 'body' or 'thought', what matters instead is the power of the model we use to explain it.



i don't actually think that any system of human pursuit, scientific or otherwise, will attain Truth with a capital T, because i don't believe that limited human cognition can perceive Truth in its entirety. however, i don't believe there will ever be an end to science in terms it reaching some sort of plateau of discovery...science is self-renewing, since every question answered provides new ways to ask new questions.

I don't believe that science will ever attain capital-T truth for anything but tautological truths: therefore I used the term 'asymptotic' - always moving closer, but never reaching the Holy Grail...

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personally

just a thing I found interesting.

I go to a catholic school, even though I'm not Catholic or particularly religous in any sense. During our Christian Ethics class this year (required, Junior Year) we found out that Catholic Teaching says our life is god's life and god's life is our life. The two are interconnected and one. So, according to that logic, it means when we sin, god sins. And if god sins, he is not perfect, therefore, not god.

Thoughts. . .


All hail the Pink Pony, lord and savior of all.*sigh* Too much wrong with that to even break it down.

Like I said, Catholicism is based far too much on the interpretations and philosophies of men. :roll: All religions are based upon the interpretations and philosophies of man. (perhaps you missed my post above) Since it is impossible to know the true nature of any supreme being and organized religion won't acknowledge that it probably is outside the conceptual understanding of mankind anyway, what else is there?All religions you say? What if a religion was actually founded personally by God, and kept them updated continuously, with newer and more relevant scripture, and living prophets, and doctrines that were so concrete that nothing was left to interpretation?

Would your statement apply to them?

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personallyI'm sorry, but there are in fact two definitions... the root definition, meaning believers in Christ, and the Nicean definition, meaning a catholic or catholic-derived religion.

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personallyYah? Then whats his favorite color? (I wanna pick out a nice tie for his birthday) :roll:

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personallyYah? Then whats his favorite color? (I wanna pick out a nice tie for his birthday) :roll:White and Red... don't you read the Bible? :P

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personallyYah? Then whats his favorite color? (I wanna pick out a nice tie for his birthday) :roll:White and Red... don't you read the Bible? :P

I thought purple was his favorite color?

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personallyYah? Then whats his favorite color? (I wanna pick out a nice tie for his birthday) :roll:White and Red... don't you read the Bible? :P

I thought purple was his favorite color?since when? He uses the colors White and Red all the time... in his clothing, in his metaphors, in the sacrament... I mean Wine and bread (red and white), scarlet and snow (red and white), Flesh and blood (White and Red), Meat and Milk (red and white)

on and on

christianity is NOT a religion-- its a relationship with Jesus. so i dont consider myself a "religious freak" as much as just someone who has found the truth and peace that comes from knowing Jesus personallyYah? Then whats his favorite color? (I wanna pick out a nice tie for his birthday) :roll:White and Red... don't you read the Bible? :P

I thought purple was his favorite color?since when? He uses the colors White and Red all the time... in his clothing, in his metaphors, in the sacrament... I mean Wine and bread (red and white), scarlet and snow (red and white), Flesh and blood (White and Red), Meat and Milk (red and white)

on and on

It was a veiled dig at the Catholic Church's overuse of the color purple. I guess it was far too vague. My mistake.

Tried to post this earlier but boards stoped working...

First off, i am not going to lie to you. There are many that call themselfs Christians that do not act like christians, or even try.

Let me explain a little about Christianity, and try not to look at it with your clouded view that you have on it by whatever events have turned you away from it in your life.

A Christian is this - A person that believes that Jesus is God in the flesh, that He came to earth for the sole purpose of dieing for their sins. That Jesus rose from the dead and lives today in every christian's heart.

Christianity is not some big religion, its very personal. Its all about you God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

A Christian *tries* to live as close to a live as Jesus did, and its very difficult, but God is forgiving, and accepts us as we are.

I dont know where im going with this. I guess im just saying dont just judge somthing because of an event in your life, or somthing sombody said. Check out the facts. make it make sence. you owe it to yourself. dont just foolishly follow what sombody says just because they say it. follow it because you have looked deeper for more information about it. and truly believe it.

As a man who openly considers himself to be a Christian, I can only offer the following answer to the original question posted here.

Is Christianity the true religion?

I can state that, as for myself, and my own personal beliefs: Yes
To speak in general terms, as to all mankind: Could be or not.
I would never presume to tell anyone that their faith is not the true religion. It may very well be. As Christianity works for me, in my life, some other form of religion may work just as well for them.
All a person can do is find what is right for themself and follow it to the best of their ability.
In the end I think that whatever form God takes, you will be accepted by him for living your life trying to please him. If, in the end, the Atheist are right and there is no God, then you have at least had reason to live as good a life as you could.
Once again, speaking entirely for myself, Christianity is the answer.
My hopes for others: I wish you all find what is best for you and it leads you to the best possible end result.

Well.. this is a great debate topic.
Most of this debate is now focusing on absolute truth. Is there such a thing?? Well... lets look at science. We know that Newton's Laws of Gravity are true. You can't debate that. We know that the Laws of Thermodynamics are true. And if these are true, then doesn't that lead one to believe that there is absolute truth?
So this now leads us to an absolute truth in a religion. Can there be. Well, if there is absolute truth, then how is it that it came about? Can it be that there is a God? Yes, if there is truth, then there has to be something out there that is the creator of that truth.
Ok.. So if you are following logic, then if there is absolute truth and a God. Then there must be an absolute truth to a religion. In short, Christianity gives that truth. It states that it is the true religion. Jesus came to die not so we can worship him. That logic is both absurd and unbiblical. Jesus came to die to establish a relationship with us. You are all missing the mark here. It isn't for us to pay tribute to him or offer sacrifices. It is for us to realize that we need God and to love him as He loves us. That is the Goal of Christianity.

We know that Newton's Laws of Gravity are true.

No we don't.

You can't debate that.

I don't need to debate it: it is factually incorrect. They may or may not be true, but we do not know them to be true. At best they have not been disproven. The fact that they have provided accurate description of what has happened in observed cases in the past does not guarantee that they well continue to do so for all future cases. Check your Hume, or indeed any just about any philosopher of science. Newton's laws are based on inductive reasoning, and so have no claim to certainty: they are merely working from fitting observed cases into a pattern. A scientific law is merely a statement on what normally occurs, but does not force the next similar event to unfold in the same manner.


We know that the Laws of Thermodynamics are true.
No we don't. See above, same argument.

And if these are true, then doesn't that lead one to believe that there is absolute truth?

We don't know them to be true.
We are led nowhere.

now im not a religous guy...i have been baptised, had communion, and been confirmed.(spelling?) What has that made me? I never go to church, and at one point i was making out with an old girlfriend in a car, in a church parking lot...but could not have sex in the same lot...because the church was on my mind...

does that make me a believer?

I believe in myself, to choose what is right and not wrong, and try to be a great all around guy.

I don't understand how people could choose a religion based on stories and events that happened a long long time ago.

the perfect religion should be constantly changing be modern.

priests cannot marry?
you cannot divorce your wife? so kill her and confess, you will be ok then...
jesus was a jew? then why is he the leader of my non jewish religion?
2 people who love each other cannot get married if they are the same sex? but marry someone to help them get into the country?

too many rules that do not make sense.

My dog...LINUS...a miniture schnauzer, seems to live a great life, yes he is still a pup under a year old, and has a simple life, but that is probably because he has no religion.

in my gang of buddies we are a mix of religions, does not really matter which ones, but we are friends and thats what counts most.

If there is a god, and all what is said is true, i feel i will have led a good life, and i will be drinking a beer with him someday, and later on at night, i will be partying up with satan.

i dont know about religion, but i'm sure of one thing...do not screw with mother nature.

sorry about the non caps and the spelling mistakes...

Just a question on the idea of sin that many christians hold up.

If Jesus died to save us and redeem our sins, does that now mean we are sinless because he has taken all of our sins? If so, why is there still such a concept as sin - they have already all been forgiven so why should we worry about it?

Just a question on the idea of sin that many christians hold up.

If Jesus died to save us and redeem our sins, does that now mean we are sinless because he has taken all of our sins? If so, why is there still such a concept as sin - they have already all been forgiven so why should we worry about it?that is what most christians believe, sadly.

I prefer to believe that he attoned for our sins, and we became endebted to him. To gain entry to heanen, we must do as Christ taught.

Which is:
We must have Faith in Christ and God
We must repent of our sins
We must be baptized
We must receive the holy ghost.

Just a question on the idea of sin that many christians hold up.

If Jesus died to save us and redeem our sins, does that now mean we are sinless because he has taken all of our sins? If so, why is there still such a concept as sin - they have already all been forgiven so why should we worry about it?that is what most christians believe, sadly.

I prefer to believe that he attoned for our sins, and we became endebted to him. To gain entry to heanen, we must do as Christ taught.

Which is:
We must have Faith in Christ and God
We must repent of our sins
We must be baptized
We must receive the holy ghost.

Basically, we owe him, big time, so we damn well better do as he says. Right?

Just a question on the idea of sin that many christians hold up.

If Jesus died to save us and redeem our sins, does that now mean we are sinless because he has taken all of our sins? If so, why is there still such a concept as sin - they have already all been forgiven so why should we worry about it?that is what most christians believe, sadly.

I prefer to believe that he attoned for our sins, and we became endebted to him. To gain entry to heanen, we must do as Christ taught.

Which is:
We must have Faith in Christ and God
We must repent of our sins
We must be baptized
We must receive the holy ghost.

Basically, we owe him, big time, so we damn well better do as he says. Right?best answred here:

The Atonement Makes It Possible for Those Who Have Faith in Christ to Be Saved from Their Sins
The Savior’s atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected with a body of flesh and bone, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death.

We accept Christ’s atonement by placing our faith in him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey his commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father.

The Savior tells us, “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer … even as I” (D&C 19:16-17). Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective in our lives, we must strive to obey him and repent of our sins.

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following illustration to show how Christ’s atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part.

“Let me tell you a story—a parable.

“There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

“He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

“So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn’t worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

“The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

“But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

“Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

“ ‘I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,’ he confessed.

“ ‘Then,’ said the creditor, ‘we will exercise the contract, take your possessions and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.’

“ ‘Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?’ the debtor begged. ‘Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?’

“The creditor replied, ‘Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?’

“ ‘I believed in justice when I signed the contract,’ the debtor said. ‘It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.’

“ ‘It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,’ the creditor replied. ‘That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.’

“There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

“ ‘If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,’ the debtor pleaded.

“ ‘If I do, there will be no justice,’ was the reply.

“Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

“There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended—but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

“The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

“ ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’

“As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, ‘You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.’

“And so the creditor agreed.

“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

“And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

“The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfied” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, pp. 79-80; or Ensign, May 1977, pp. 54-55).

Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of him, if we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father.

It is wonderful that Christ has provided us a way to be healed from our sins. He said:

“Behold, I have come unto the world … to save the world from sin.

“Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved” (3 Nephi 9:21-22).

Just a question on the idea of sin that many christians hold up.

If Jesus died to save us and redeem our sins, does that now mean we are sinless because he has taken all of our sins? If so, why is there still such a concept as sin - they have already all been forgiven so why should we worry about it?Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin. This is to say that a sin before Jesus' sacrafice was eternal. Since Jesus' sacrafice and through the words he taught, we know that sins now can be forgiven. Nowhere in the bible does it say all sin will automatically be forgiven, there are things that have to be in place beforehand. You must believe, you must repent of your sin, and you must ask for forgiveness. To name the most common of them.

Just a question on the idea of sin that many christians hold up.

If Jesus died to save us and redeem our sins, does that now mean we are sinless because he has taken all of our sins? If so, why is there still such a concept as sin - they have already all been forgiven so why should we worry about it?that is what most christians believe, sadly.

I prefer to believe that he attoned for our sins, and we became endebted to him. To gain entry to heanen, we must do as Christ taught.

Which is:
We must have Faith in Christ and God
We must repent of our sins
We must be baptized
We must receive the holy ghost.


Once we believe this we try to live our lives by it. We tryeach day to do the right things and each day we screw up some how. either we cuss, think mean and ugly things, and/or over all we can have a bad day. As long as we admit when we screw up, ask forgiveness, and pray for guidance. The holy spirit comes in and helps replace the old bad wants and desires like drinking booze, with the things God wants us to do. Hey I have not had a drink in the last three months, been tempted but never gave in. I owe that to the strenght of the Holy Spirit! Keep your eyes on the Lord and you will be amazed at what He will bless you with! :D

True religion is an oxymoron.

True religion is an oxymoron.not really...

There is no god
There is no devil
There is no heaven or hell

What you do right is because of you.
What you do wrong is your fault, not some mythical satan.

Live life as you see fit
Don't blame your problems on anyone but your self
Don't attribute your gains to anyone but yourself

all that groks is god

True religion is an oxymoron.not really...

Would you care to demonstrate how any religion (any will do) is true?

Aidan

True religion is an oxymoron.not really...

Would you care to demonstrate how any religion (any will do) is true?

AidanWell, that depends on your definition of Truth.

I am assuming that your definition of the Truth is whatever can be proved in the court of law.

Well everyone knows that is complete Bull.

The truth is more important than the facts.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Hebrews 4:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7. The true church must baptize by immersion (Matthew 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Hebrews 1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God (Hebrews 4:4; Exodus 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matthew 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthews 7:20)

Of all those points, none of the Christian sects covered even half of them... then they found the Mormons, and the Mormons hit every single one.

So I'm going to have to go with the Mormons still :)

Is Christianity the True Religion?

What do you think?

As a Jew, I'm going to go ahead and say, "No".

True religion is an oxymoron.not really...

Would you care to demonstrate how any religion (any will do) is true?

AidanWell, that depends on your definition of Truth.

I am assuming that your definition of the Truth is whatever can be proved in the court of law.

Well, no. A true statement is independent of humans. Something like "The sun is hotter than Greenland" is true. A courtroom witchhunt may prove that a woman is a witch in the eyes of the law, but that does not mean that the statement "Ms X is a witch" is true.

Well everyone knows that is complete Bull.

The truth is more important than the facts.
A true statement is a fact. A true ideology is a collection of facts. Truth cannot be more important than, for example 2+2=4.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.
A "true church" is hardly an impartial definition and does not agree with the idea that a true statement is independent of humans. You could say that if an object fits the following 17 conditions then it is a thingum. Whether or not a thingum is an accurate representation or reflection of anything is irrelevant when proving that an object is a thingum.

...
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Hebrews 4:4-10)
Ouch! That one sounds quite scary... What if a church decided that trousers were immoral?

9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
...
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh
...
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:16&29)
Hmm, I've never heard of these ones before, interesting!

17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthews 7:20)
On a slightly less serious note I've never known any church from the quality and/or quantity of it's apples and oranges...

Of all those points, none of the Christian sects covered even half of them... then they found the Mormons, and the Mormons hit every single one.

So I'm going to have to go with the Mormons still :)

Well, if you think that the "true" church is an accurate representation of a reality (the way the universe works) then good for you. But bible quotes won't convince anyone who doesn't believe the bible, and you can't assume that everyone accepts the "true church" as an accurate representation of what's happening out there beyond what we can see.

Aidan

Scenario:

A guy is convicted of Murder.

The truth is, he is completely innocent.

Unfortunately, he was not able to convince the jury of that.

Legally, he is convicted of the murder.

Apparently, in this case, facts are more important than the Truth.

In God's eyes, and in the guy's eyes, he is innocent, and that is the Truth.

Just because he wasn't able to convince anyone else of the truth, does not mean it wasn't the truth.

Scenario:

A guy is convicted of Murder.

The truth is, he is completely innocent.

Unfortunately, he was not able to convince the jury of that.

Legally, he is convicted of the murder.

Apparently, in this case, facts are more important than the Truth.

In God's eyes, and in the guy's eyes, he is innocent, and that is the Truth.

Just because he wasn't able to convince anyone else of the truth, does not mean it wasn't the truth.

An incorrect statement is not a fact. Someone can stand up in court and say "2+2=5" but it is not a fact.

Fact 1: A=2
Fact 2: B=2
Fact 3: 2+2=4

Then a truthful consequence (ie statement) would be "A+B=4".

Aidan

Religion is an opiate for the masses.

Religion is an opiate for the masses.howso? Whyso?

as i said before im an agnostic, though i like to learn about all religions. might want to remember Pascals(sp?) Wager, which (i believe) was paraphased much earlier. Basically its as follows:

If person A is an non-spiritual atheist and person B is a theist (e.g. Christian, Hindu, etc.) and they both die- if person A was correct nothing happens. They both die, simple as that. No afterlife, no punishment, just nothingness. If person B is correct, person A burns in hell for all eternity.

People have used the "what have you got to lose" excuse for quite some time to justify religion. Of course then you still run into the question of which religion is the correct one.

And according to quite a few major philosophers you can't tell if something is true or not, especially in the future. To say thermodynamics is true and factual cannot be, because it only takes one time for it to fail to disprove it. I know this sounds strange because we accept all such things as factual, but its better outlined in Hume's problem of induction. There's something for future research. :D

And lastly- one of my questions on Christianity, perhaps someone could help me with. God is supposed to be an all-powerful, all-seeing being. So God created us, putting Adam and Eve on the earth. With free will according to most Christians. Even so God knew they were going to sin. If a god is all-seeing, he must know what we're going to do before we do it, even if it is in fact free will. So God would have put us on the earth, knowing he was gonna have to kick us out of Eden, knowing he was going to place us in times of trial and suffering, knowing that only a while after he put his creation on the earth he was going to have to punish them. To me this doesn't make sense...Maybe someone could help me understand why this would be. My only request in answering this question is please do not use the phrase, "Well, I'm not sure and thats something we'll have to wait until heaven to find out." or any of its variants. (Thats what I've heard everytime I've challenged my more fundementalists friends with the question.)

My only request in answering this question is please do not use the phrase, "Well, I'm not sure and thats something we'll have to wait until heaven to find out." or any of its variants. (Thats what I've heard everytime I've challenged my more fundementalists friends with the question.)

Do you know why they give you that answer?

It's because it's the only answer they can give you.

Humans are humans. Humans are stupid. Nobody understands God's plans in full.

Is Christianity the True Religion?

What do you think?Yes.

By the way, Bergist, myself and others see it as this life is a test. God said he would separate "the wheat from the chaff." I believe He wanted to see who would remain faithful.

I have no interest in disproving Christianity or any other religion because it's near impossible to do so. I'd also like to tag on that I don't mean to offend anyone in my questioning. But to claim that life is a test, you still run into a problem of why the Christian god would put us on the earth through all this suffering. If he is all-seeing, he knows the results of the test before it takes place. He would know everyone who is to get into heaven before they even live. If not he wouldn't be all-seeing. Even to say that life is a test...God knows the results...why test?

I think religion falls under the base concept of something like doublethink (for those of you who have read 1984). It means knowing that you will never find the higher power you worship until after you die while at the same time, believeing that that power is all around you and affects your life.

Knowing and understanding two contradictory events seems to be the basis of much of religion. Think about

Jesus died but he is alive
God is perfect yet he can sin with us
the bible is perfect, yet flawed by the hand of man
the bible is the word of god, to be interpreted by the imperfection of man
god loves us, but we could go to hell if we don't go his way
jesus attoned for our sins, yet there is still sin

and so on and so forth. . .

And lastly- one of my questions on Christianity, perhaps someone could help me with. God is supposed to be an all-powerful, all-seeing being. So God created us, putting Adam and Eve on the earth. With free will according to most Christians. Even so God knew they were going to sin. If a god is all-seeing, he must know what we're going to do before we do it, even if it is in fact free will. So God would have put us on the earth, knowing he was gonna have to kick us out of Eden, knowing he was going to place us in times of trial and suffering, knowing that only a while after he put his creation on the earth he was going to have to punish them. To me this doesn't make sense...Maybe someone could help me understand why this would be. My only request in answering this question is please do not use the phrase, "Well, I'm not sure and thats something we'll have to wait until heaven to find out." or any of its variants. (Thats what I've heard everytime I've challenged my more fundementalists friends with the question.)

Actually, that's an excellent question, Bergist, and one I've often wondered about myself. No one has been able to sufficiently explain an answer to me and, while it doesn't stop my theisim, it is certainly one of the more interesting inconsistancies in the Bible.

I've broken down my responses to this scenario into several general answers.

1. God is not all knowing, at least in the sense that we mean when we say "all knowing". It is possible that God only knows things as they happen or certain choice paths are as opaque to God as they are to us. Therefore, he/she/it may have legitimately not known this particular outcome because it was important for God to have an unbiased answer to the question. Perhaps he/she/it constructed a situation (using their omnipotent abilities) that he/she/it couldn't have prior knowledge of. In theory, it's possible. Ultimately, of course, this is all just speculation and requires reliance on the "God Is Too Far Beyond Our Earthly Perceptions To Ever Understand" axiom which I myself adhere to, but realize is simply not acceptable for non-theists.

2. God is one mean bastard. There are ample examples of this in the Old Testiment. After all, this is the same God who was fond of destroying entire cities, wiping out entire populations with floods and playing mind games by testing the faith of his followers (Job certainly is a good argument for the "One Mean Bastard" school of thought). Therefore, God created the situation, knew the outcome and was just waiting to punish people. This answer, while perhaps more in line with the "facts" of the Bible, certainly doesn't offer a comforting picture of God and, if God can't provide comfort, what good is he/she/it? The counter argument is also that God softens his image in the New Testiment and suddenly it's all about Love and Forgiveness. This leads to several other implications, including the "Well, why didn't God just start out nice," question and the "God doesn't change" paradox. It also doesn't really ultimately answer the question.

3. The Bible is wrong. It was channelled through man and has been rewritten, edited, translated and generally put through the human ringer quite a lot in it's some 2000 year history (give or take a couple thousand years, depending on who you listen to). It's rife with inconsistancies and perhaps this is yet another one. Still, it's hard to imagine how this particular misinformation creeped in, so this may be true or it may not, there's nothing particularly compelling or satisfying either way.

4. God takes a long view. It is possible, again using the "G.I.T.F.B.O.E.P.T.E.U." theory, that while God knew he would have to discipline his creation for breaking laws which he knew they could not keep, that ultimately it was for the best. He knows of some possible outcome that will be achieved through the action of casting out of the garden. So, while it seems harsh and oddly contradictory, we simply haven't seen the eventual result or haven't been able to link the outcome to the initial conditions. Again, this is simply speculation and probably not all that satisfying for a non-theist.

5. It builds character. Perhaps it's not a literal story, but merely an allegory to extole the virtues of taking the harsh road. Sure, Eden was Paradise, but the Bible would have been a much shorter book if there was never a Fall and Jesus wouldn't have been needed at all. Perhaps it's simply a story relating the message, knowlwedge comes at the loss of innocence but gains the rewards of experience. Of course, this demands one accept that God is as into symbology as Melville and Hemmingway, but that's not completely out of the question.

Ultimately, and I know you told me not to say this, the simple fact is that no one knows. It's one of those questions of faith that, if you believe, you don't necessarily need the answer to in order to continue beliving, but if you don't espouse that particular theisim, it will always be an avenue of doubt.

And lastly- one of my questions on Christianity, perhaps someone could help me with. God is supposed to be an all-powerful, all-seeing being. So God created us, putting Adam and Eve on the earth. With free will according to most Christians. Even so God knew they were going to sin. If a god is all-seeing, he must know what we're going to do before we do it, even if it is in fact free will. So God would have put us on the earth, knowing he was gonna have to kick us out of Eden, knowing he was going to place us in times of trial and suffering, knowing that only a while after he put his creation on the earth he was going to have to punish them. To me this doesn't make sense...Maybe someone could help me understand why this would be. My only request in answering this question is please do not use the phrase, "Well, I'm not sure and thats something we'll have to wait until heaven to find out." or any of its variants. (Thats what I've heard everytime I've challenged my more fundementalists friends with the question.)

Actually, that's an excellent question, Bergist, and one I've often wondered about myself. No one has been able to sufficiently explain an answer to me and, while it doesn't stop my theisim, it is certainly one of the more interesting inconsistancies in the Bible.

I've broken down my responses to this scenario into several general answers.

1. God is not all knowing, at least in the sense that we mean when we say "all knowing". It is possible that God only knows things as they happen or certain choice paths are as opaque to God as they are to us. Therefore, he/she/it may have legitimately not known this particular outcome because it was important for God to have an unbiased answer to the question. Perhaps he/she/it constructed a situation (using their omnipotent abilities) that he/she/it couldn't have prior knowledge of. In theory, it's possible. Ultimately, of course, this is all just speculation and requires reliance on the "God Is Too Far Beyond Our Earthly Perceptions To Ever Understand" axiom which I myself adhere to, but realize is simply not acceptable for non-theists.

2. God is one mean bastard. There are ample examples of this in the Old Testiment. After all, this is the same God who was fond of destroying entire cities, wiping out entire populations with floods and playing mind games by testing the faith of his followers (Job certainly is a good argument for the "One Mean Bastard" school of thought). Therefore, God created the situation, knew the outcome and was just waiting to punish people. This answer, while perhaps more in line with the "facts" of the Bible, certainly doesn't offer a comforting picture of God and, if God can't provide comfort, what good is he/she/it? The counter argument is also that God softens his image in the New Testiment and suddenly it's all about Love and Forgiveness. This leads to several other implications, including the "Well, why didn't God just start out nice," question and the "God doesn't change" paradox. It also doesn't really ultimately answer the question.

3. The Bible is wrong. It was channelled through man and has been rewritten, edited, translated and generally put through the human ringer quite a lot in it's some 2000 year history (give or take a couple thousand years, depending on who you listen to). It's rife with inconsistancies and perhaps this is yet another one. Still, it's hard to imagine how this particular misinformation creeped in, so this may be true or it may not, there's nothing particularly compelling or satisfying either way.

4. God takes a long view. It is possible, again using the "G.I.T.F.B.O.E.P.T.E.U." theory, that while God knew he would have to discipline his creation for breaking laws which he knew they could not keep, that ultimately it was for the best. He knows of some possible outcome that will be achieved through the action of casting out of the garden. So, while it seems harsh and oddly contradictory, we simply haven't seen the eventual result or haven't been able to link the outcome to the initial conditions. Again, this is simply speculation and probably not all that satisfying for a non-theist.

5. It builds character. Perhaps it's not a literal story, but merely an allegory to extole the virtues of taking the harsh road. Sure, Eden was Paradise, but the Bible would have been a much shorter book if there was never a Fall and Jesus wouldn't have been needed at all. Perhaps it's simply a story relating the message, knowlwedge comes at the loss of innocence but gains the rewards of experience. Of course, this demands one accept that God is as into symbology as Melville and Hemmingway, but that's not completely out of the question.

Ultimately, and I know you told me not to say this, the simple fact is that no one knows. It's one of those questions of faith that, if you believe, you don't necessarily need the answer to in order to continue beliving, but if you don't espouse that particular theisim, it will always be an avenue of doubt.

True religion is an oxymoron.not really...

Would you care to demonstrate how any religion (any will do) is true?

AidanWell, that depends on your definition of Truth.

I am assuming that your definition of the Truth is whatever can be proved in the court of law.

Well everyone knows that is complete Bull.

The truth is more important than the facts.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Hebrews 4:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7. The true church must baptize by immersion (Matthew 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Hebrews 1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God (Hebrews 4:4; Exodus 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matthew 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthews 7:20)

Of all those points, none of the Christian sects covered even half of them... then they found the Mormons, and the Mormons hit every single one.

So I'm going to have to go with the Mormons still :)

10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

16The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)


1. Jesus and God are the same being, existing as 2 different persons in the trinity. Jesus pre existed as creator not created (john 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3) Therefore being the creator, Jesus could not have been the brother of Lucifer because Lucifer was created (Ezekiel 28:13-15) Jesus pre existed eternally as God and had no begining (John 1:1, Micah 5:12, Col 1:17-19, Heb 1:8.)

2. God does NOT have a physical body of flesh and bone, although he can appear as a person. No one has seen the Father (John 6:46) And god appears as many different things in the Old Testament (exodus 3:1-4 Burning bush, Judges 6:22 An Angel, and Genesis 18:1-2 A Human)

3. Regarding the verse about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor:

In Verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ is the first one raised -- in a glorified body -- and then who are His at His return. Next, verses 24 - 29 mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79. The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.
Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we. This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

All religions have their basis in insanity....some more than others.

But when the foremost tenets of your faith are:

1. God (or whomever) is never wrong.

2. God..(whatever) is the only real God..

3. Those in charge of his church are never wrong, by default....

4. If ever God is wrong...see rule #1.

That spells corruption..and evil deeds..done in the name of your faith.
Christian..Muslim, it doesnt matter really....theyve all done some heinous crap.
I cant think of a religion offhand that the above rule doesnt apply to...
The point is that these dont encourage taking responsibility for your own actions.

I believe. There is only one God. I am a christian.

The bible explicitly states that there are multiple gods.


And God said, Let us make man in our image...

You never know. God could be afflicted with multiple personalities. That could easily explain all the contradictions in the Bible.

Yes, I believe Bible Protestantism is the only true form of Christianity, and that Christianity is the only true Religion.

Also, there is an urgent meeting of all Christian nations to discuss what to do in regards to the Apostacy arising in the world today and the threats of culture and other nations to the fellowship of Christ's believers.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3076168#3076168

Do attend!

His Imperial Highness,
Viktor Leipzig I
Emperor of All The Greater Prussians

God is using the Royal "we", kings would say, We shall think about it, referring to only themselves. Or let us think about this, referring to only themselves.

Yes, I believe Bible Protestantism is the only true form of Christianity, and that Christianity is the only true Religion.

Also, there is an urgent meeting of all Christian nations to discuss what to do in regards to the Apostacy arising in the world today and the threats of culture and other nations to the fellowship of Christ's believers.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3076168#3076168

Do attend!

His Imperial Highness,
Viktor Leipzig I
Emperor of All The Greater Prussiansoh come on, please don't tell me you think the religion that spawned the witch trials and the KKK and slavery were Christ's true church :)

To all those that have been asking me about the reason we're here, and if there are multiple gods, and why he gave us free will and whatever, i suggest you read the Book of Abraham. (http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/contents)

It's not too long, the relevant chapters... i'll post them here:

THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH

CHAPTER 3
Abraham learns about the sun, moon, and stars by means of the Urim and Thummim—The Lord reveals to him the eternal nature of spirits—He learns of pre-earth life, foreordination, the creation, the choosing of a Redeemer, and the second estate of man.

1 AND I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

5 And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.

6 And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night.

7 Now the set time of the lesser light is a longer time as to its reckoning than the reckoning of the time of the earth upon which thou standest.

8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still;

9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God.

11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;

12 And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.

13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.

14 And it was in the night time when the Lord spake these words unto me: I will multiply thee, and thy seed after thee, like unto these; and if thou canst count the number of sands, so shall be the number of thy seeds.

15 And the Lord said unto me: Abraham, I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt, that ye may declare all these words.

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

CHAPTER 4
The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.

1 AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.

7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.

8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.

9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;

10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, Great Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

11 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind, whose seed in itself yieldeth its own likeness upon the earth; and it was so, even as they ordered.

12 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

13 And it came to pass that they numbered the days; from the evening until the morning they called night; and it came to pass, from the morning until the evening they called day; and it was the third time.

14 And the Gods organized the lights in the expanse of the heaven, and caused them to divide the day from the night; and organized them to be for signs and for seasons, and for days and for years;

15 And organized them to be for lights in the expanse of the heaven to give light upon the earth; and it was so.

16 And the Gods organized the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; with the lesser light they set the stars also;

17 And the Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to cause to divide the light from the darkness.

18 And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.

19 And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that it was night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that it was day; and it was the fourth time.

20 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.

21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

22 And the Gods said: We will bless them, and cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas or great waters; and cause the fowl to multiply in the earth.

23 And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and it was the fifth time.

24 And the Gods prepared the earth to bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind; and it was so, as they had said.

25 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth the beasts after their kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind; and the Gods saw they would obey.

26 And the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.

28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And the Gods said: Behold, we will give them every herb bearing seed that shall come upon the face of all the earth, and every tree which shall have fruit upon it; yea, the fruit of the tree yielding seed to them we will give it; it shall be for their meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, behold, we will give them life, and also we will give to them every green herb for meat, and all these things shall be thus organized.

31 And the Gods said: We will do everything that we have said, and organize them; and behold, they shall be very obedient. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and they numbered the sixth time.

CHAPTER 5
The Gods finish their planning of the creation of all things—They bring to pass the creation according to their plans—Adam names every living creature.

1 AND thus we will finish the heavens and the earth, and all the hosts of them.

2 And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will rest on the seventh time from all our work which we have counseled.

3 And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would rest from all their works which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and sanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth.

4 And the Gods came down and formed these the generations of the heavens and of the earth, when they were formed in the day that the Gods formed the earth and the heavens,

5 According to all that which they had said concerning every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for the Gods had not caused it to rain upon the earth when they counseled to do them, and had not formed a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

8 And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Gods to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food; the tree of life, also, in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 There was a river running out of Eden, to water the garden, and from thence it was parted and became into four heads.

11 And the Gods took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden, to dress it and to keep it.

12 And the Gods commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

14 And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him.

15 And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;

16 And of the rib which the Gods had taken from man, formed they a woman, and brought her unto the man.

17 And Adam said: This was bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; now she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man;

18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

19 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

20 And out of the ground the Gods formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them; and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that should be the name thereof.

21 And Adam gave names to all cattle, to the fowl of the air, to every beast of the field; and for Adam, there was found an help meet for him.

--------

Now of course, most, if not all of Christianity, refuses to accept this work as the Word of God.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
Yada yada yada........CC, your so deep in it you can't see the sun. An Independant and Unbiased group of Theologists... Yeah right. 17 points that only apply to Christian religions. Wake up. Christianity isn't even the most popular religion on the planet.

One must remember that not all professing Bible Protestants are actually so. Alot of them, like the KKK are Apostate and enemies of God. Those of the true reformed faith are members of the true Church. Those of the witch trials, while they were trying to do good, did not do well. There are really such things as witches. They are spoken of in the bible. They are condemned to death by God himself. But the only one it seems who ever did any kind of witchcraft in Old Salem was that African Slave Woman whose name I cannot spell, Titchuba or something like that. The others were innocent and the evil that was done is inexcusable. Those men are evil. The actions of individual men do not speak for an entire system. It is just as unfair to say that all people of one race or another are this way or that as it is to say that all Protestants share in the sins of those people who fell away from God and did not follow the path that was plowed before them by the Great reformers, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli.

Yes, I believe Bible Protestantism is the only true form of Christianity, and that Christianity is the only true Religion.

Also, there is an urgent meeting of all Christian nations to discuss what to do in regards to the Apostacy arising in the world today and the threats of culture and other nations to the fellowship of Christ's believers.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3076168#3076168

Do attend!

His Imperial Highness,
Viktor Leipzig I
Emperor of All The Greater Prussiansoh come on, please don't tell me you think the religion that spawned the witch trials and the KKK and slavery were Christ's true church :)

oh come on, please don't tell me you think the religion that spawned decades of child molestation, continued current molestation of young girls, and the slaughter of 137 innocent men and women (circa 1837) was Christ's true chuch :)

guess what? every Christian sect has committed horrible acts of violence and abuse against others. EVERY ONE. so have Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheist organizations, and even the famously peaceful Buddhists. if you think Christ's true church will be identified by its peaceful ways then you had best give up on religion all together.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
Yada yada yada........CC, your so deep in it you can't see the sun. An Independant and Unbiased group of Theologists... Yeah right. 17 points that only apply to Christian religions. Wake up. Christianity isn't even the most popular religion on the planet.Umm, sorry, i meant to include a "DUH" factor that they went off the BIBLE, OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.

They were searching for the true sect of christianity.

Yes, I believe Bible Protestantism is the only true form of Christianity, and that Christianity is the only true Religion.

Also, there is an urgent meeting of all Christian nations to discuss what to do in regards to the Apostacy arising in the world today and the threats of culture and other nations to the fellowship of Christ's believers.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3076168#3076168

Do attend!

His Imperial Highness,
Viktor Leipzig I
Emperor of All The Greater Prussiansoh come on, please don't tell me you think the religion that spawned the witch trials and the KKK and slavery were Christ's true church :)

oh come on, please don't tell me you think the religion that spawned decades of child molestation, continued current molestation of young girls, and the slaughter of 137 innocent men and women (circa 1837) was Christ's true chuch :)

guess what? every Christian sect has committed horrible acts of violence and abuse against others. EVERY ONE. so have Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheist organizations, and even the famously peaceful Buddhists. if you think Christ's true church will be identified by its peaceful ways then you had best give up on religion all together.I have never heard anything of the first point, and if There exists such problems, it is dealt with and no where near a fraction of the rampant problems of the catholic church.

As for the second, that was not a church matter.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
Yada yada yada........CC, your so deep in it you can't see the sun. An Independant and Unbiased group of Theologists... Yeah right. 17 points that only apply to Christian religions. Wake up. Christianity isn't even the most popular religion on the planet.Umm, sorry, i meant to include a "DUH" factor that they went off the BIBLE, OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.

They were searching for the true sect of christianity.Climb out of the box and acknowledge that the one true religion might not even be Christian. Duh.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
Yada yada yada........CC, your so deep in it you can't see the sun. An Independant and Unbiased group of Theologists... Yeah right. 17 points that only apply to Christian religions. Wake up. Christianity isn't even the most popular religion on the planet.Umm, sorry, i meant to include a "DUH" factor that they went off the BIBLE, OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.

They were searching for the true sect of christianity.Climb out of the box and acknowledge that the one true religion might not even be Christian. Duh.And AC completely misses my point twice in a row!

They were searching for the True Christian Church. That means that their only bias was that the church was somewhere in Christianity. They were wondering which sect was true, Just like Joseph Smith did, and like all should.

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
Yada yada yada........CC, your so deep in it you can't see the sun. An Independant and Unbiased group of Theologists... Yeah right. 17 points that only apply to Christian religions. Wake up. Christianity isn't even the most popular religion on the planet.Umm, sorry, i meant to include a "DUH" factor that they went off the BIBLE, OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.

They were searching for the true sect of christianity.Climb out of the box and acknowledge that the one true religion might not even be Christian. Duh.And AC completely misses my point twice in a row!

They were searching for the True Christian Church. That means that their only bias was that the church was somewhere in Christianity. They were wondering which sect was true, Just like Joseph Smith did, and like all should.Raysia, Your point is inside a sheltered little box, Outside of that box is a whole other world. In that world the most popular religious beliefs are not Christian, but Muslim. I got your point, you obviously missed mine.

This is a dumb topic.

Allah is the only god and Muhammed is his prophet.

Case closed.

Church of What's Happenin' Now.... BABY!

:!:

An independant and unbiased group of Theologists determined that there were 17 points that the True Church needed to have.

17 Points of the True Church

1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23)
Yada yada yada........CC, your so deep in it you can't see the sun. An Independant and Unbiased group of Theologists... Yeah right. 17 points that only apply to Christian religions. Wake up. Christianity isn't even the most popular religion on the planet.Umm, sorry, i meant to include a "DUH" factor that they went off the BIBLE, OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.

They were searching for the true sect of christianity.

Actually the 17 points are for the church of latter day saints, not christianity. And they are NOT based on the Old and New Testaments, they are based on the contradictory teachings of the Mormon Prophets over the years. (They contradicted the Bible and each other)

10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

16The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)


1. Jesus and God are the same being, existing as 2 different persons in the trinity. Jesus pre existed as creator not created (john 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3) Therefore being the creator, Jesus could not have been the brother of Lucifer because Lucifer was created (Ezekiel 28:13-15) Jesus pre existed eternally as God and had no begining (John 1:1, Micah 5:12, Col 1:17-19, Heb 1:8.)

2. God does NOT have a physical body of flesh and bone, although he can appear as a person. No one has seen the Father (John 6:46) And god appears as many different things in the Old Testament (exodus 3:1-4 Burning bush, Judges 6:22 An Angel, and Genesis 18:1-2 A Human)

3. Regarding the verse about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor:

In Verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ is the first one raised -- in a glorified body -- and then who are His at His return. Next, verses 24 - 29 mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79. The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.
Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we. This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

But of course maybe i am misinterpreting verses, when jesus said "We are one" maybe that could have meant that he and God are seperate.

I've been reading throught a lot of this topic and I have a few things to add or possibly re-state.

First off, Truth and Facts are the same thing. A court of law has nothing to do with anything than a flawed justice system.
I think of truth (facts) in terms of science. Something that can be SCIENTIFICALLY proven. A lawer/salesman/conman could "prove" that a man dying of thirst in the middle of the desert needs to buy a new pair of pants. This man may accept this as a fact. That "fact" is far from the truth. and is far from being scientifically proven. Then again I recall reading a post that mentions Hume's Induction paradox, If I'm remembering it correctly it basically says that you can never know if something is true because all it takes is one counter-example to destroy the whole arguement. So unless anyone here has traversed all of time and space doing impossibly detailed research, the truth is un-attainable.

there's also the question of if anything is real at all, but that's an entirely different topic.

Secondly, it's been my experience that many people that claim to know the "truth" when it comes to religion are trying to lure insecure people into a cult. There's a term called Fortress Mentality I believe, which basically is a bunch of people that are comforted by the belief that if they follow their belief to the letter (thereby implying that it was truth) that they will never have to worry or fear anything again. No Human can possibly know the truth. if you do have religious beliefs then only your god/deity can possibly know truth. and since you don't know if that deity exists due to your lack of truth then you get stuck in a paradox. an agnostic is stuck in pretty much the same boat. atheists will never know truth in this life or the next (if there is one) but it's ok because they don't really care.

an annoying trend i've seen is that half of the arguments are about which christianity is the "true" christianity. if chritianity is so divided that even its followers can't decide what's right I don't see how it can be the truth.

What it all comes down to is faith. It is IMPOSSIBLE to ever know truth in this life. You can have incredibly even ludicrously strong faith that what you believe is true, but that will never make it true. Due to the fact that "truth" is an idealic concept and entirely unattainable to us the "true" religion cannot be known. So just pick whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and feel secure that you're right no matter what anyone else says and you won't need to worry about truth.

Henry Ford and numerous other people have been quoted as saying:
"Whether you think you can or think you can't do something, you're probably right"

So forgive me for being redundant, but I end with this

Do what makes you feel good, or gives you purpose. The only truth you can find on earth is the truth you make for yourself.

Sad but true, isn't it?

God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are two seperate distinct BEINGS, who are one in purpose. Christ, for all intents and purposes, IS God, basically whenever God is mentioned in the Old Testament.

The only time we ever see God the Father in the Bible is at the creation, and at Christ's Baptism.

God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are two seperate distinct BEINGS, who are one in purpose. Christ, for all intents and purposes, IS God, basically whenever God is mentioned in the Old Testament.

The only time we ever see God the Father in the Bible is at the creation, and at Christ's Baptism.

God and Jesus are the same being, now i hate to get the bible involved, but :

John17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus claims that he and God are one.

Colossians 1:16-17
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

These verses say that "the word becomes flesh" in the form of Christ. And it also says the the word was God. If the word is Christ, and it says the Word was God, then how can God and Jesus be seperate? And it also says that all things were created by Christ, then that disproves another mormon doctrine of Lucifer and Christ being brothers. If Christ is the creator, and Lucifer is created, (ezekiel 28:13-15) then how can they be brothers?

There is of course, no one true religion, nor is there any absolute fact about religion, considering the main source is a book written by mortal men.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

There is of course, no one true religion, nor is there any absolute fact about religion, considering the main source is a book written by mortal men.what about books written by Prophets in direct contact with God?

actually, no one cares, about you, your opinion, or your religion.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

separate, schizophrenic.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

Because Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity. He is 100 percent man, and 100 percent God. But so is The Holy Spirit. They are three different persons of the same God. 3 in 1. If Christ and God are seperate people, then explain to me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted.

separate, schizophrenic.lol thanks*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

Because Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity. He is 100 percent man, and 100 percent God. But so is The Holy Spirit. They are three different persons of the same God. 3 in 1. If Christ and God are seperate people, then explain to me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted.How about you answer my question first, then we'll debate whether the Nicean Creed is the word of God :P

There is of course, no one true religion, nor is there any absolute fact about religion, considering the main source is a book written by mortal men.what about books written by Prophets in direct contact with God?

I just had to jump in here and ask Capsule a question.

Were you there when God was contacting the Prophets?

My guess is no. The bible is a book. Harry Potter is a book. Nobody I can think of worships harry potter, but many people that worship the bible dislike this harry potter book.

Both books written by men.

What if God told J.K. Rowling to write Harry Potter?

By your statement, anyone claiming that God was talking to them when they wrote their story could create their own religion.

Come to think of it I'm sure a few have.

God is God. Man is Man. any contact between the two is as impossible to prove as the existence of the first.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

it seems that you either don't understand or don't believe in the trinity.

God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate and one simultaneously.

this is something that God can do but you cannot that answers your question. I think.

There is of course, no one true religion, nor is there any absolute fact about religion, considering the main source is a book written by mortal men.what about books written by Prophets in direct contact with God?

I just had to jump in here and ask Capsule a question.

Were you there when God was contacting the Prophets?

My guess is no. The bible is a book. Harry Potter is a book. Nobody I can think of worships harry potter, but many people that worship the bible dislike this harry potter book.

Both books written by men.

What if God told J.K. Rowling to write Harry Potter?

By your statement, anyone claiming that God was talking to them when they wrote their story could create their own religion.

Come to think of it I'm sure a few have.

God is God. Man is Man. any contact between the two is as impossible to prove as the existence of the first.Oh, so you're one of them types who thinks everything needs proof. That's why there's faith.

Faith is one of the core principles of the Gospel.. and you don't even have that... how on earth do you expect me to teach you about anything else?

separate, schizophrenic.lol thanks*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

Because Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity. He is 100 percent man, and 100 percent God. But so is The Holy Spirit. They are three different persons of the same God. 3 in 1. If Christ and God are seperate people, then explain to me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted.How about you answer my question first, then we'll debate whether the Nicean Creed is the word of God :P

I just did answer the question. Christ is one of the persons of the trinity, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 3 indentities of the same God. Now please tell me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted that distinctly say that Christ and God are the same.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

it seems that you either don't understand or don't believe in the trinity.

God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate and one simultaneously.

this is something that God can do but you cannot that answers your question. I think.LOL That's my point. i don't belive nor understand in the catholic concept of "trinity." Please answer wjhy God would want to pretend to be a schizophrenic...

separate, schizophrenic.lol thanks*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

Because Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity. He is 100 percent man, and 100 percent God. But so is The Holy Spirit. They are three different persons of the same God. 3 in 1. If Christ and God are seperate people, then explain to me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted.How about you answer my question first, then we'll debate whether the Nicean Creed is the word of God :P

I just did answer the question. Christ is one of the persons of the trinity, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 3 indentities of the same God. Now please tell me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted that distinctly say that Christ and God are the same.I will restate the question... why would he talk to himself, pray to himself, and introduce himself in the 3rd person?

I just had to jump in here and ask Capsule a question.

Were you there when God was contacting the Prophets?

My guess is no. The bible is a book. Harry Potter is a book. Nobody I can think of worships harry potter, but many people that worship the bible dislike this harry potter book.

Both books written by men.

What if God told J.K. Rowling to write Harry Potter?

By your statement, anyone claiming that God was talking to them when they wrote their story could create their own religion.

Come to think of it I'm sure a few have.

God is God. Man is Man. any contact between the two is as impossible to prove as the existence of the first.
Hey, I talked to Jesus last week. Don't mock my direct phone line to God.
I worship Harry Potter, on a shrine of black stone covered in the blood of kittens.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

it seems that you either don't understand or don't believe in the trinity.

God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate and one simultaneously.

this is something that God can do but you cannot that answers your question. I think.LOL That's my point. i don't belive nor understand in the catholic concept of "trinity." Please answer wjhy God would want to pretend to be a schizophrenic...


I'm going to sleep now, If you like you can read my first post, it's back on the 7th page near the bottom, it's a bit un organized but one of my pet peeves was that people were arguing about christianity being the true religion, but didn't even agree on what christianity was.

You don't believe in or understand the trinity, so it's completely useless to you as an argument, while others such as Baclumi that seem to understand it see no contradiction at all and can't see your side of the argument.

any way, I may be back tomorrow to see how this all is going, but until then good night and God bless. :D

separate, schizophrenic.lol thanks*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

Because Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity. He is 100 percent man, and 100 percent God. But so is The Holy Spirit. They are three different persons of the same God. 3 in 1. If Christ and God are seperate people, then explain to me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted.How about you answer my question first, then we'll debate whether the Nicean Creed is the word of God :P

I just did answer the question. Christ is one of the persons of the trinity, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 3 indentities of the same God. Now please tell me how i misunderstood the verses i quoted that distinctly say that Christ and God are the same.I will restate the question... why would he talk to himself, pray to himself, and introduce himself in the 3rd person?

Because he is a different identity of the same God. But ok for the sake of argument, lets say that Jesus and God were seperate. Then explain to me how John 17:11, Colossians 1:16-17, and John 1.1 dont say that Christ and God are the same person.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

it seems that you either don't understand or don't believe in the trinity.

God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate and one simultaneously.

this is something that God can do but you cannot that answers your question. I think.LOL That's my point. i don't belive nor understand in the catholic concept of "trinity." Please answer wjhy God would want to pretend to be a schizophrenic...


I'm going to sleep now, If you like you can read my first post, it's back on the 7th page near the bottom, it's a bit un organized but one of my pet peeves was that people were arguing about christianity being the true religion, but didn't even agree on what christianity was.

You don't believe in or understand the trinity, so it's completely useless to you as an argument, while others such as Baclumi that seem to understand it see no contradiction at all and can't see your side of the argument.

any way, I may be back tomorrow to see how this all is going, but until then good night and God bless. :DThus my other point, that Christianity (religions of or derived from Catholicism) is not the true church.

If you would know JHVH/Creator, look at creation. :mrgreen:

Beating someone over the head with My Favorite Religious Text is not likely to solve anything.

Do you believe in using guilt to bring salvation, maybe love? Salvation thru dunking? What if it really is the Mormons who have it right? Do you really believe only a fraction of humanity can be saved? Would you respect a God who would trash so many souls in favor of a chosen few? Could you live with yourself if you were chosen but your mother wasn't? What if your spouse was left off the Pearly Gates roll call?

:D Your eternity awaits.

*sigh*

OK, answer me this simple question. If they are the same person, then why does Christ constantly pray to God? Why does he speak to his Father, as if he is a seperate person? Why, at his baptism, does he perform an awesome voice-throwing act and shout down 'this is my beloved son'?

Was Christ merely schizofrenic?

it seems that you either don't understand or don't believe in the trinity.

God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate and one simultaneously.

this is something that God can do but you cannot that answers your question. I think.LOL That's my point. i don't belive nor understand in the catholic concept of "trinity." Please answer wjhy God would want to pretend to be a schizophrenic...


I'm going to sleep now, If you like you can read my first post, it's back on the 7th page near the bottom, it's a bit un organized but one of my pet peeves was that people were arguing about christianity being the true religion, but didn't even agree on what christianity was.

You don't believe in or understand the trinity, so it's completely useless to you as an argument, while others such as Baclumi that seem to understand it see no contradiction at all and can't see your side of the argument.

any way, I may be back tomorrow to see how this all is going, but until then good night and God bless. :DThus my other point, that Christianity (religions of or derived from Catholicism) is not the true church.

How convenient to just pass off every other religion as not true, and completely ignore my question. If you are in the one true faith, then explain to me how John 17:11, Colossians 1:16-17, and John 1.1 dont say that Christ and God are the same person. Because after all, us protestants and you mormons believe in the bible as the word of God.

But anyways, that is all for me for tonite, i gotta go sleep. But i will return tommorow. Hey i just realized my nation is a year old tommorow.

Because he is a different identity of the same God. But ok for the sake of argument, lets say that Jesus and God were seperate. Then explain to me how John 17:11, Colossians 1:16-17, and John 1.1 dont say that Christ and God are the same person.John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Umm, there we go again. Christ is talking to God. If they were one in being, they would not be talking to each other. When he says they are "one," that means AS one... one in purpose. Just like a man and his wife can be considered one. Just like a Family can be considered one. Oneness and Unity are synonymous.

Colossians 1 talks about Christ acting under the direction of God, and being in the image of God, and being the firstborn of the Father... even more in my point.

John 1: As I said before... Christ is God in the Old Testament. Basically whenever "God" is mentioned in the Old Testament, it is Christ.

I can see how you would be so easily confused.

Go back to the last page in this thread and read those couple chapters out of the Book of Abraham... that will better explain my view.

I find the argument a few posts back about how some people always need proof and others take things by faith to be rather interesting. In a way these are one in the same. I am a skeptic, not in the religious sense in this case, but rather in terms of reality and what constitutes it. (for an explanation check out Hume) And in the end, all anything really comes down to is belief.

For those of you who drive, what proof do you have that your car will start tomorrow morning? What solid proof do you have that you will go down open the door, put in the key, and have it start? One might say "Well it ran fine today." But that's no proof for the future. It may however lead you to believe it will start. All things considered "fact" may be broken down this way because, even though somethings happened a billion times before, it only takes one example against it to disprove the certainty of something. In such a way science is a belief system. Many believe certain things took place in the past to begin the long road of evolution. They believe this.

In the same way, theists take God and their religion by faith. Essentially the greatest difference between a theist and an atheist (aside from the obvious) is what they base their beliefs on. For the atheist its often science and what they see before them. For the theist its often an ancient text and a really strong inclination towards a feeling or idea. Not really part of the debate so much but I found it interesting.

I find the argument a few posts back about how some people always need proof and others take things by faith to be rather interesting. In a way these are one in the same. I am a skeptic, not in the religious sense in this case, but rather in terms of reality and what constitutes it. (for an explanation check out Hume) And in the end, all anything really comes down to is belief.

This is another good point that gets at the heart of the metaphysical question, rather than attempts to lay the Bible smack down on someone. Ultimately, it's a lot more interesting to discuss. Either you see something in the Bible or you don't. Period. However, I want to discuss this.

I think the difference between belife and proof lies in probability. What science attempts to do is proove that "If A, then B". In short, it attempts to predict the future by creating models of probable reality. A fact is something with a probability approaching 100%. You give the example of the car starting tomorrow. Well, know one knows for certain that there car will start (I've personally had several days where I had to call into work because my car didn't start...and yes, I lost my religion and swore like a sailor). However, there is a very strong probability that, given nothing has changed or degraded in the night, the car will start. That probability is so close to 100% that, for our purposes, it might as well be 100%. Therefore, this is a type of fact, or, an assertation of probability approaching 100%.

Belief, or, more correctly, faith, does not rely on probability because it deals with pure speculation. If you sin against God (or whatever concept of religion is being enforced), there is no way I can say that God will smite you with anything approaching 100% probability. However, I can speculate that there will be repercussions and feel certain that you'll get yours. I can't prove this (although I might later try and point at occurances subsequent to your trangression and dance about, singing, "Told you so, told you so!"), but I can have faith in it.

It all does boil down to them being two different metrics that can't really be applied to each other. A scientific viewport shuns faith while a theistic viewpoint doesn't require proof and can function contrary to it, in some cases. This doesn't make one better than the other, but simply different tools for different jobs.


For those of you who drive, what proof do you have that your car will start tomorrow morning? What solid proof do you have that you will go down open the door, put in the key, and have it start? One might say "Well it ran fine today." But that's no proof for the future.

No, there never is, but there is strong possibility of occurance.


It may however lead you to believe it will start. All things considered "fact" may be broken down this way because, even though somethings happened a billion times before, it only takes one example against it to disprove the certainty of something.

Well, I might argue here that it doesn't disprove the certainty because the initial conditions might have changed or your thesis may be incomplete. If you drop a ball on the earth's surface, it will fall a certain way. If you drop a ball on the surface of Mars, though, it may fall a different way. Does this mean gravitational force is different? No, gravity's the same, just the initial theory isn't complete enough to account for the different conditions. I've probably screwed this example up. Could some physicist clear up what I'm trying to say here?


In such a way science is a belief system. Many believe certain things took place in the past to begin the long road of evolution. They believe this.

Again, though, it's not so much belief or faith, but evidence showing a probability approaching 100% that evolution occured.


In the same way, theists take God and their religion by faith. Essentially the greatest difference between a theist and an atheist (aside from the obvious) is what they base their beliefs on.

This is an interesting statement and I want to agree with it, but I don't think I can. Not to say that theisim or atheisim is superior to the other, but I don't think you can speak in scientific terms about religious belief or faith.


For the atheist its often science and what they see before them. For the theist its often an ancient text and a really strong inclination towards a feeling or idea.

But what about the agnostic or the theist who is also a scientist?


Not really part of the debate so much but I found it interesting.

Hehe, me too. :D

Which Christianity? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Roman Catholic? Lutheran? Anglican? Sorry, that's absurd. Methodist? Unitarian?

What an odd question.


Christianity should be considered anyone who lives by the teachings
of Jesus Christ... Hense CHRISTianity. All the the above may or may
not qualify under this qualifier.

Which Christianity? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Roman Catholic? Lutheran? Anglican? Sorry, that's absurd. Methodist? Unitarian?

What an odd question.


Christianity should be considered anyone who lives by the teachings
of Jesus Christ... Hense CHRISTianity. All the the above may or may
not qualify under this qualifier.

This seems to be a very broad definition of Christianity. The members of the Waco compound believed in Christ and tried to live by his teachings. Yet, I would imagine most Christians would shy away from claiming this obvious cult.

I grew up Christian. I was considering becoming a minister. Not anymore. Now I'm more of an agnostic than anything else. I've seen too many contradictions in fundementalist principle to believe in that. Dogmatic atheists are no better. While one group is too blind to see they aren't even acting by the tenets of their own religion, the other group (i.e. the dogmatic atheists) force themselves to see only what is directly before them. I'm not sayin all Christians are fundementalists or that all atheists are dogmatic. But neither extreme is any better than the other. We have no proof either way. And please please please, I've seen too many people try to prove God by quoting the Bible. This is really great for convincing people who are already Christians that God exists...

"Faith" is the Key to the teachings of Jesus Christ. You must be able to
believe in him without PROOF. I'll take Jesus' faith anyday over worldly
proof.
Why? Because how many times have things that were supposedly
proven to be safe to use, later is DISCOVERED that it causes cancer
or something.
Christ is the one thing you can count on to never change!

no religion is "true," therefore it is not possible for Christianity to be "true."


What do you base this belief on?

I am so glad to be a pagan Native American...trying to figure out the do's, don'ts, in's and out's of Christianity gives me a headache right between the eyes...When someone tells me...we'll....you have 25 God/Goddesses in your Pantheon...well..yes...strictly speaking....but those entities are wrapped up in expressions of Grandfather Creator..no exact English translation..when they ask me..where is your God...I point to the rabbit...to the deer...to the tree...listen to the breeze of air...is this not all part of the Devine?....Where is your Church they'll ask...anywhere I place my rump..but there are a few places considered "holy" by my people, places where we believe the Gods and the Spirits whom they employ can be...."touched".."accessed".. for lack of better words.

There is not intricate system of theologies and dogmas..no schisms..the Lumbee of North Carolina believe differently then we Cherokee...such as the Apache differ from the Piute or the Cheyenne or the Huron or Mohawk. We accept these differences as peculiar to those peoples..who are we to judge how the Devine shows itself/herself/himself to humans?

Why it's almost to overpowering to digest that we have "THE" truth and that someone else doesn't...therefore I do not believe that one has it right..and one has it wrong..

LOL just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have gotten into North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? :)

"Faith" is the Key to the teachings of Jesus Christ. You must be able to
believe in him without PROOF. I'll take Jesus' faith anyday over worldly
proof.

This is disturbing. While I do have faith in Christ, I also have a healthy respect for proof. Why do you assume that the two must be antithesis of one another?


Why? Because how many times have things that were supposedly
proven to be safe to use, later is DISCOVERED that it causes cancer
or something.

Er, but this is a very flimsy reason to doubt something like, oh, say, gravity. And could you actually give an example of something that was proven to be safe for use, giving both your criteria and justification for that proof, and was later shown to be carcinogenic? I imagine that most things that are "proven" to be safe, but aren't, have been identified as unsafe all along, but false evidence has been presented for some reason to mislead the public.


Christ is the one thing you can count on to never change!

Hmmm, why do you think that? Seems to me that the Christ changes by the minute. That's not such a bad thing. Shows He's there, keeping an eye on us and responding to our needs.

I am so glad to be a pagan Native American...trying to figure out the do's, don'ts, in's and out's of Christianity gives me a headache right between the eyes...When someone tells me...we'll....you have 25 God/Goddesses in your Pantheon...well..yes...strictly speaking....but those entities are wrapped up in expressions of Grandfather Creator..no exact English translation..when they ask me..where is your God...I point to the rabbit...to the deer...to the tree...listen to the breeze of air...is this not all part of the Devine?....Where is your Church they'll ask...anywhere I place my rump..but there are a few places considered "holy" by my people, places where we believe the Gods and the Spirits whom they employ can be...."touched".."accessed".. for lack of better words.

There is not intricate system of theologies and dogmas..no schisms..the Lumbee of North Carolina believe differently then we Cherokee...such as the Apache differ from the Piute or the Cheyenne or the Huron or Mohawk. We accept these differences as peculiar to those peoples..who are we to judge how the Devine shows itself/herself/himself to humans?

Why it's almost to overpowering to digest that we have "THE" truth and that someone else doesn't...therefore I do not believe that one has it right..and one has it wrong..

I am so glad to be a pagan Native American...trying to figure out the do's, don'ts, in's and out's of Christianity gives me a headache right between the eyes...When someone tells me...we'll....you have 25 God/Goddesses in your Pantheon...well..yes...strictly speaking....but those entities are wrapped up in expressions of Grandfather Creator..no exact English translation..when they ask me..where is your God...I point to the rabbit...to the deer...to the tree...listen to the breeze of air...is this not all part of the Devine?....Where is your Church they'll ask...anywhere I place my rump..but there are a few places considered "holy" by my people, places where we believe the Gods and the Spirits whom they employ can be...."touched".."accessed".. for lack of better words.

There is not intricate system of theologies and dogmas..no schisms..the Lumbee of North Carolina believe differently then we Cherokee...such as the Apache differ from the Piute or the Cheyenne or the Huron or Mohawk. We accept these differences as peculiar to those peoples..who are we to judge how the Devine shows itself/herself/himself to humans?

Why it's almost to overpowering to digest that we have "THE" truth and that someone else doesn't...therefore I do not believe that one has it right..and one has it wrong..As I said before... the Christian Churches (excluding Mormons) are made up from the shattered remains of Christ's church. They have partial truth, and some hole truths, but they do not have all the turth.

It's not always a matter of entirely true or entirely false... but how much is truth and how much is made up to fill gaps.

LOL just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have gotten into North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? :)

Don't you know?...We took the Trans-Siberain railway to Yakusk...then took the Land Rover over the Bering Straits then the Trans-Canadian South (boy getting tickets for that train was a pain)....finally we hoofed it from there dropping off the Cree/Inuits/Athabascans in Canada and Alaska on the way down.

LOL just wondering, what is the Christian explanation for the Indians anyway? How could they have gotten into North America, if there was, in fact (according to them), No Ice Age? :)

Don't you know?...We took the Trans-Siberain railway to Yakusk...then took the Land Rover over the Bering Straits then the Trans-Canadian South (boy getting tickets for that train was a pain)....finally we hoofed it from there dropping off the Cree/Inuits/Athabascans in Canada and Alaska on the way down.

Ha! :lol: That's much better than my "Ever heard of the Land of Nod" answer.

I feel that Budhism, Hinduism and Taoism offer more truth than christianity.

I believe that also, but I also know that it is not the absolute faith. Generally speaking, for those who quote that Christianity is the absolute faith - I can tell you with absolute certainty that it is not the absolute faith AND I have proof.

I am sure that for the rest of you, you know exactly what I am talking about. For the Christians (generally speaking) who don't know, don't ask me, because if you don't know, then obviously you've just answered your possible question. And yes, I am a little offensive here - deservingly and generally speaking that is. 8]

I am so glad to be a pagan Native American...trying to figure out the do's, don'ts, in's and out's of Christianity gives me a headache right between the eyes...When someone tells me...we'll....you have 25 God/Goddesses in your Pantheon...well..yes...strictly speaking....but those entities are wrapped up in expressions of Grandfather Creator..no exact English translation..when they ask me..where is your God...I point to the rabbit...to the deer...to the tree...listen to the breeze of air...is this not all part of the Devine?....Where is your Church they'll ask...anywhere I place my rump..but there are a few places considered "holy" by my people, places where we believe the Gods and the Spirits whom they employ can be...."touched".."accessed".. for lack of better words.

There is not intricate system of theologies and dogmas..no schisms..the Lumbee of North Carolina believe differently then we Cherokee...such as the Apache differ from the Piute or the Cheyenne or the Huron or Mohawk. We accept these differences as peculiar to those peoples..who are we to judge how the Devine shows itself/herself/himself to humans?

Why it's almost to overpowering to digest that we have "THE" truth and that someone else doesn't...therefore I do not believe that one has it right..and one has it wrong..


That is so beautiful. 8] In many ways, your spiritual beliefs are very similar to Buddism and Hinduism. God is Life and vice versa. It is not a humanistic being with humanistic emotions. It is simply Life that is all around us.

In my book, one of the things I wrote about in accordance to ignorance is this... "Ignorance is not whether you accept it or not (as in follow it), rather, ignorance is when you side with one ideology without the study of other perspectives."

There is one Christian I've had the good fortune of meeting when I was a young child. Throughout the years, he had not once preached his beliefs upon me, and amongst many other things, he has gained an utmost respect and admiration from me. I myself follow the moral guidelines of Buddhism, but my true faith is in Life itself. And I do not mind in sharing this with everyone. I think for some of those who are the Native ascendants, you would know what I am talking about - and further that, I haven't even read up on any Native spiritual texts.

So peaceful within our scriptures and rituals - generally speaking, why do the Christian groups have to invade 'us' and enforce their laws upon us?

One day, I will meet the Dalai Llama (he's in Vancouver right now - my home town) and ask him these questions. Maybe he can calm my heart a little bit more... 8]

... I had a massive post last night, but then Nationstates messed up on me and didn't post it... So I'm just going to have to summarize it. I'm too lazy to go and quote everything, but I did copy and paste a quote from somewhere here...

"atheists will never know truth in this life or the next (if there is one) but it's ok because they don't really care." I am offended by this... I'm an atheist, and I do care about the ultimate truth. I don't neccessarily believe there is one, but I'm watching for it. I'm watching from a neutral point of view, trying to get as little of my own belief taint into the truth as possible.

And as for the "why does god do what he does" question, just incase such a thing as god does exist, my favorite reason is in Good Omens: "God does not play dice with the universe; he plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any other players (i.e. everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark toom, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who <I>smiles all the time</I>."

And that was almost all I had. Plus this:
We were still breathing a day after I posted earlier; that means I predicted right. So here's another prediction:The world will end tomorrow.

Lessee if things repeat themselves :)

I said something else, but I can't remember it now.

.
And that was almost all I had. Plus this:
We were still breathing a day after I posted earlier; that means I predicted right. So here's another prediction:The world will end tomorrow.

Lessee if things repeat themselves :)

I said something else, but I can't remember it now.

NO, Tomorrow is Saturday! That's not fair, to have to get through the whole week only to have the world end on the weekend. That's just not right! :lol:

Why all this hatin' of dogmatic athiests? Athiests who work by science can prove all they say. Just because it's not all this wooly liberal crap of 'respecting' people spreading lies who don't respect anyone else.

Yes Christianity is thr true religion because a book and a million people say so. Case closed.

I need all the God/esses I can get. Blessed are those that only need 1.

I need all the God/esses I can get. Blessed are those that only need 1.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the 'need' comment.

Why all this hatin' of dogmatic athiests? Athiests who work by science can prove all they say. Just because it's not all this wooly liberal crap of 'respecting' people spreading lies who don't respect anyone else.

But they started it! :wink:

I need all the God/esses I can get. Blessed are those that only need 1.

Heh... I like that... Y'need the god(esse)s...

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.

But if salvation is through faith, that's not really fair, now is it? Because if it's through faith rather than works, then if you really believe in the Christian God, you could go to heaven even if you were murdering people left and right. But if you lived the nicest life possible and never hurt anyone, but were, say, a buddhist or something, then you would be eternally punished.

this is for each to find out and for us to know at the judgement day.

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.So... commandments don't matter?

Please tell me you at least believe in the 10 commandments... there's nothing allegorical about them.

this is for each to find out and for us to know at the judgement day.sounds like a good answer to me

Guys, guys, your all wrong and confused. The true religion is, of course, the mormon religion. They got all figured out, almost like in East. You know, moderation is essential and crap like that.


P.S. ON DOOMSDAY I.E. WHEN THE BIG ASTERIOD COLLIDES WITH OUR PLANET (QUITE SOON...) ALL SHALL BE DISINTERGRATED INTO THE BASIC ELEMENTS, EXCEPT THOSE ONES THAT FOLLOW THE TRUE RELIGION. OW, YES. SUCKERS.

Only the religion of the Pink Pony is the true religion. All others are blasphemers and heresies. All people who worship those heresies will be sent the the insignificant white rabbit of large nasty sharp teeth. Convert now and save yourself, go to the Pink Pony of eternal bliss!The Pink Pony is an false god and idol, but I can't just beat a dead horse. I have to chop it up, burn it, and bury it. Otherwise, you would set up its corpse for veneration. Sinner. ~ Michael.

Only the religion of the Pink Pony is the true religion. All others are blasphemers and heresies. All people who worship those heresies will be sent the the insignificant white rabbit of large nasty sharp teeth. Convert now and save yourself, go to the Pink Pony of eternal bliss!The Pink Pony is an false god and idol, but I can't just beat a dead horse. I have to chop it up, burn it, and bury it. Otherwise, you would set up its corpse for veneration. Sinner. ~ Michael.

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

"If you're so pro-life, do me a favor: don't block arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries."


He nearly lost his career for that joke. He was banned from the Late Show with David Letterman.

But seriously, Bill Hicks had some spiritual things right, things as an athiest with NO religious belief I can follow. Hurting each other is pointless and counterproductive, for we are all part of the same consciousness, basically.

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.So... commandments don't matter?

Please tell me you at least believe in the 10 commandments... there's nothing allegorical about them.

If you believe in Christ as savior, and follow all the commandments, God wont love you any more then if you didnt follow all the commandments. Jesus forgives all sins, past present, and future. Yes, a person should still follow all the commandments, but a person cannot follow all the commandments all the time, that is why it was necessary for Jesus Christ to die and make atonement for all sins.

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.So... commandments don't matter?

Please tell me you at least believe in the 10 commandments... there's nothing allegorical about them.

If you believe in Christ as savior, and follow all the commandments, God wont love you any more then if you didnt follow all the commandments. Jesus forgives all sins, past present, and future. Yes, a person should still follow all the commandments, but a person cannot follow all the commandments all the time, that is why it was necessary for Jesus Christ to die and make atonement for all sins.

I really, really, really do not see how that's fair. I mean, by this logic, if you are the most evil bastard on all the planet but you believe in Christ, you're going to heaven. But if you're the kindest, nicest, lest sinning person in the universe but you don't give a crap about Jesus, then you're going to hell...

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.So... commandments don't matter?

Please tell me you at least believe in the 10 commandments... there's nothing allegorical about them.

If you believe in Christ as savior, and follow all the commandments, God wont love you any more then if you didnt follow all the commandments. Jesus forgives all sins, past present, and future. Yes, a person should still follow all the commandments, but a person cannot follow all the commandments all the time, that is why it was necessary for Jesus Christ to die and make atonement for all sins.

I really, really, really do not see how that's fair. I mean, by this logic, if you are the most evil bastard on all the planet but you believe in Christ, you're going to heaven. But if you're the kindest, nicest, lest sinning person in the universe but you don't give a crap about Jesus, then you're going to hell...

yeah, that seems really cheap to me. so screw the real world, it doesn't matter, you can trash it however you want. but just remember that if you believe in this one guy then you can go to our imaginary cloud city with all the harp-holders after you die! seems like a license to be rotten, to me.

Is Christianity the True Religion?

What do you think?

F*** that.

Is Christianity the True Religion?

What do you think?

F*** that.

:D not much more to add.

Except I like eating tortilla chips and salsa.

Well, whadya know, there is something I can add to that.

Is Christianity the True Religion?

What do you think?

F*** that.

:D not much more to add.

Except I like eating tortilla chips and salsa.

Well, whadya know, there is something I can add to that.

Well, not much to add to THAT. I like skinny dipping. I just couldn't resist adding something.

errrrmmm I think Christianity is just supposed to be about loving God and other people. The catholics screwed everything up with all the rituals and rules, and made the religion corrupt.

Which Christianity? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Roman Catholic? Lutheran? Anglican? Sorry, that's absurd. Methodist? Unitarian?

What an odd question.

Again I must say, Amen.

It happens to be so. :) GOD BLESS!

errrrmmm I think Christianity is just supposed to be about loving God and other people. The catholics screwed everything up with all the rituals and rules, and made the religion corrupt.

It's also about personal gain. I mean, if you read Genesis, all the people are selfish little monsters... And "god" is sticking up for them.

But here's a question I just thought of... which came first, the bible or christianity?

As for the remarks that seem to have salvation and works confused, the reason why a Christian, though saved by his faith, follows those commandment is because of this one statement by Christ, and I quote, "Those that love Me will keep my commandments." So, though a Christian is saved by faith through grace, he follows the commandments of God to show his or her love for God. I should know, ever since I became a Christian, my life has been much different than the one I was leading before, and frankly, it's much better.

I think many people see christians as just a bunch of people that follow a bunch of rules. And alot of christians say "if i dont do this, then God will love me more". But as a christian i try not to think like that. I think that trusting in christ gives me freedom, and the reason why I dont do drugs and drink is because i choose to lay down those freedoms because i know that they could hurt me, or others in the long run. Not because I want to follow a strict code of laws. We could drink and do drugs, and God will love us just as much as he would if we led the most holy life imaginable. I think alot of people feel uncomfortable by the fact that good works cant get you into heaven, it is all about faith. Some people say that If they live good lives, and do good things, then they will get into heaven, but I think that christians shouldnt say that. Because salvation is through faith, not works.So... commandments don't matter?

Please tell me you at least believe in the 10 commandments... there's nothing allegorical about them.

If you believe in Christ as savior, and follow all the commandments, God wont love you any more then if you didnt follow all the commandments. Jesus forgives all sins, past present, and future. Yes, a person should still follow all the commandments, but a person cannot follow all the commandments all the time, that is why it was necessary for Jesus Christ to die and make atonement for all sins.

I really, really, really do not see how that's fair. I mean, by this logic, if you are the most evil bastard on all the planet but you believe in Christ, you're going to heaven. But if you're the kindest, nicest, lest sinning person in the universe but you don't give a crap about Jesus, then you're going to hell...

yeah, that seems really cheap to me. so screw the real world, it doesn't matter, you can trash it however you want. but just remember that if you believe in this one guy then you can go to our imaginary cloud city with all the harp-holders after you die! seems like a license to be rotten, to me.

I am a catholic so i am not sure if others in the Christian faith believe this. What Jesus preached did not destroy the beliefs in the Old Testament, but rather fulfilled them. We, as Catholics still must follow the the Ten Commandments as a guideline to life.

errrrmmm I think Christianity is just supposed to be about loving God and other people. The catholics screwed everything up with all the rituals and rules, and made the religion corrupt.

If you would review Vatican II, you will see that the Church has reformed itself to make it less restraining and more meaningful

I am a catholic so i am not sure if others in the Christian faith believe this. What Jesus preached did not destroy the beliefs in the Old Testament, but rather fulfilled them. We, as Catholics still must follow the the Ten Commandments as a guideline to life.

Yes, but there are many other commandments in the Old Testament that are not followed, be it through ignorance or sociatal advancement or simple choice not to follow them. So which ones get more weight than others. The New Testiment was an attempt by God to illustrate to us that the laws are not the substance of the church and the important points of Christianity are love and brotherhood, not mindless obedience to laws which may or may not have had a divine inspiration.

BumpmuB

That absurd cult figure, Yahweh, holds about as much leeway on Absolute Truth as does Loki! And at least Loki has some wits about him. Yahweh just sat in a box for 1000 years or so, ordering his nomads to move him around.

I am a semi-agnostic (that is, I don't so much believe as suspect, or would prefer) henotheist. Henotheism=all gods exist, and are equally true. In my case, they're actually vying for power/worship/tribute/memespace among themselves.

Also, the gods are not defined by the ideology or name, but by their behaviour. So anybody who resembles a traditional Fisher King/Sun God, regardless of name or written theology, IS a Fisher King/Sun God. *coughJESUScough*.

Or, you might say, each God is actually a Divine Archetype living within the human mind/memepool, and many gods of different names fit within the various archetypes. Example: The constant reappearance of the Trickster/Craftworker godtype, as Loki, Anansi, Athena/Discordia, and others.

In this case, Yahweh fits into the "grumpy old Cronus" godtype, and only appeals to humans of his demeanor: patriarchal, insecure, power-obssessed 2nd-circuit primates, usually old and male.

Yahweh, however, has cunningly adopted/enslaved the Messiah/Sun as his Sun/Son, in constant sacrifice. The Messiah/Sun, Christ's, aims in this were different than Yahweh's. The Pope/Hierophant/John Calvin dogmatic figure is the emmissary and pontifex maximus of Yahweh-type, usually. True Christians, however, act in the forgiving and loving example of their Messiah. This should probably involve the wholesale rejection of the entire chapter of Leviticus, and Deutoronomy while we're at it. They're not a wandering Yahweh-cult anymore.

So, Christ may not be the true god, but it wouldn't be so bad if he, the forgiver and lover, was. Too many of his supposed follower, however, are liars/confused/deceived.

Yahweh is not so very different from Mephistopheles/The Devil. Satan is an omni-purpose scapegoat....he's everybody's and anybody's enemy. Lucifer is, strangely enough, not the Devil, but rather a very big competitor, and yet being an enemy of Yahweh's, is lumped in by Yahweh-followers/deceived with the Satan (adversary) and The Devil (great deceiver/corrupted Trickster). Loki is sometimes The Devil. WHen he's being a smarmy bastard.