NationStates Jolt Archive


A few (legitemate) questions for Christians

Xenophobialand
20-04-2004, 04:39
Before I begin, I must confess two things. Firstly, I was brought up in a fairly strict. . .well, if not Christian atmosphere, at least an atmosphere where conservative Christian thought was heavily infuential in my upbringing. Additionally, I went to elementary school built and run by Christian fundamentalists.

That being said, the second point I must confess is that despite this heavy conservative Christian influence on my upbringing, as well as a fairly good knowledge of the Bible, Gospels especially, I'm pretty sure that my training and induction into this world predates the evangelical and other newer fundamentalist trends. For example, despite the fact that I went to elementary education at a school run by Missouri-Synod Lutherans (a group that would probably refer to Southern Baptists as "damned liberals"), we were still given thorough sex-ed, even to the point of explicit videos (few remember that the churches of America once produced and showed these kinds of videos) designed for the express purpose of showing firstly what the bodily functions were, and second that it should be done in the context of a loving relationship. We were also taught evolution, natural sciences, physics, and all other kinds of things that contradict parts of the Bible. This practice would probably be considered an abomination by today's church.

But this is of course, almost completely off-topic. I was only trying to explain why it is that I as a Christian have little or no understanding of several topics that were never mentioned when I was in church, but now seem to be common topics among conservative Christians. I would like to know, legitemately, why these topics are of interest to you later breed of evangelicals, and how you make sense of them. I'm seriously not trying to offend or insult you, and I hope that no one else does either. I'd simply like to know.

1) Free-Will and political ideology. When I was in school, we were taught that man had free will, probably the same as you. The difference is that we worked this into the teaching of John Locke: as free will is an integral part of all humans as created by God, and God is by nature Good, then it stands to reason that that government is best which best preserves the ability of the people to choose for themselves. To inhibit this process is to inhibit God's plan for creating an even better world than one in which evil never existed, and therefore no triumph over corruption was needed. This is of course skeletal, but I'm sure you get the idea.

The problem is that most religious conservatives nowadays do not accept this conclusion, in fact in many ways, they actively oppose it. From pornography to abortion to sexual politics, it seems that in many cases, the objective of the religious right is not to expand choice, but to limit it. Now mind you this is not about sin per se, or saying that either one of those things are or are not sinful, but a question about the nature of government: how do you reconcile the fact that your religion is adamantly in favor of a free-will conception of human nature, while at the same time your politics is in many ways determined to limit free-will as much as possible by government coercion?

2) The Rapture. When I was in elementary school, the Rapture was never mentioned. We never once heard a sermon about how God would carry away the Chosen before Armaggeddon, in fact, we heard scarce little about Armaggeddon at all. What we did hear about was a great deal about Jesus: his teachings, his sacrifice, his moral exemplarism, his faith.

This leads me to a question about conservative Christians now: why is the Rapture so important, and more importantly, is it even moral? You see, when I hear Jesus say that those without power are blessed and the meek shall inherit the earth, and that they are the righteous who defend both the innocent and the guilty, I have trouble reconciling this notion with a Jesus who would take away the most righteous of all people at a time when the world needs them most. If you were truly Christian, wouldn't you want to stay behind to help those, as opposed to being carried off where you cannot fight evil? Wouldn't you have a moral responsibility to bear the brunt of the suffering, so that others would not have too? This is the legacy I was brought up with, but is strikingly different from evangelical sermons of today. So my question is, how do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory aspects of Christian teaching?
Demonic Furbies
20-04-2004, 04:58
all descent questions. i am not among the ranks of the conservative christian, so i also would like to hear how they think.
20-04-2004, 05:25
Me too....
Jay W
20-04-2004, 09:25
I will take a shot at giving an answer to these really well worded questions.

1) Free-Will and political ideology. When I was in school, we were taught that man had free will, probably the same as you. The difference is that we worked this into the teaching of John Locke: as free will is an integral part of all humans as created by God, and God is by nature Good, then it stands to reason that that government is best which best preserves the ability of the people to choose for themselves. To inhibit this process is to inhibit God's plan for creating an even better world than one in which evil never existed, and therefore no triumph over corruption was needed. This is of course skeletal, but I'm sure you get the idea.

The problem is that most religious conservatives nowadays do not accept this conclusion, in fact in many ways, they actively oppose it. From pornography to abortion to sexual politics, it seems that in many cases, the objective of the religious right is not to expand choice, but to limit it. Now mind you this is not about sin per se, or saying that either one of those things are or are not sinful, but a question about the nature of government: how do you reconcile the fact that your religion is adamantly in favor of a free-will conception of human nature, while at the same time your politics is in many ways determined to limit free-will as much as possible by government coercion?Free-will and political ideology go prefectly hand-in-hand in the Conservative view. On one side you have free-will to chose your political views. On the other your political views should reflect what you chose to think of as the best choice for your fellow man. It would be contrary to the Christian ideology to be associated with a political party that advocates the killing of children of God, sexual practices that are clearly defined as sinfull, that sinful thought is unequal to sinful deeds. Abortion, homosexuality, pornography. As is told in the bible, that most Christian faiths follow the three topics you mentioned are sins. Thereby, since they are upheld as rights by the Liberal party, it makes absolutely no sense, for a Christian, to be affiliated with them.

2) The Rapture. When I was in elementary school, the Rapture was never mentioned. We never once heard a sermon about how God would carry away the Chosen before Armaggeddon, in fact, we heard scarce little about Armaggeddon at all. What we did hear about was a great deal about Jesus: his teachings, his sacrifice, his moral exemplarism, his faith.

This leads me to a question about conservative Christians now: why is the Rapture so important, and more importantly, is it even moral? You see, when I hear Jesus say that those without power are blessed and the meek shall inherit the earth, and that they are the righteous who defend both the innocent and the guilty, I have trouble reconciling this notion with a Jesus who would take away the most righteous of all people at a time when the world needs them most. If you were truly Christian, wouldn't you want to stay behind to help those, as opposed to being carried off where you cannot fight evil? Wouldn't you have a moral responsibility to bear the brunt of the suffering, so that others would not have too? This is the legacy I was brought up with, but is strikingly different from evangelical sermons of today. So my question is, how do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory aspects of Christian teaching?The Rapture is a time where the chosen are taken away before those who God has deemed unworthy are wiped out. As a Christian, a person knows that if God deems it to be so, it will be so. You could not change the event if you tried. A Christian knows that they are not responsible for bearing the brunt of the suffering. A Christian believes Jesus bore the suffering for them. A Christian also knows that the others had the free-will to accept or reject God. They chose to reject God. This brings to mind the biblical story of Noah and the Arc. God made a choice then and at no point was Noah asked to remain behind to bear the brunt of those who would perish. A Christian would know that God made the choice and it was the right one.
Ortah
20-04-2004, 09:44
*tag* and *bump*

Finally, philisophical talk that doesn't end in either "God sucks" or "You're going to hell".

~Ortah's "Actually Made Me Think at 5am" seal of approval!~ is given to these thought provoking questions.
THE LOST PLANET
20-04-2004, 10:07
Free-will and political ideology go prefectly hand-in-hand in the Conservative view. On one side you have free-will to chose your political views. On the other your political views should reflect what you chose to think of as the best choice for your fellow man. It would be contrary to the Christian ideology to be associated with a political party that advocates the killing of children of God, sexual practices that are clearly defined as sinfull, that sinful thought is unequal to sinful deeds. Abortion, homosexuality, pornography. As is told in the bible, that most Christian faiths follow the three topics you mentioned are sins. Thereby, since they are upheld as rights by the Liberal party, it makes absolutely no sense, for a Christian, to be affiliated with them.

I asked you, Jay, on another thread how you reconciled your Conservative Christian intolerance of homosexuality with the teachings of Jesus. I never got an answer. Perhaps you could take the time here. Jesus preached love and compassion for ones fellow man no matter what his beliefs or actions, he consistantly reached out to the down trodden, outcast and shunned. Do you honestly think he would advocate the exclusion and persecution of someone for their sexual preference? I notice your references to the bible are not inclusive of the teachings of Christ. Funny how you guys are selective of what passages you decide to follow.
Dragons Bay
20-04-2004, 13:51
I thought the questions were really sensible, so I'm going to reply to them.

To respond to your first paragraph about freedom and politics:

Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. (I Peter 2:16)

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men. (I Peter 2:13)

The second paragraph, I believe, as already been answered. :P

Not perfect, or even complete arguments, but I think any religious disputes should be solved with religious words.
Slap Happy Lunatics
20-04-2004, 15:07
deleted
Slap Happy Lunatics
20-04-2004, 15:10
Free-will and political ideology go prefectly hand-in-hand in the Conservative view. On one side you have free-will to chose your political views. On the other your political views should reflect what you chose to think of as the best choice for your fellow man. It would be contrary to the Christian ideology to be associated with a political party that advocates the killing of children of God, sexual practices that are clearly defined as sinfull, that sinful thought is unequal to sinful deeds. Abortion, homosexuality, pornography. As is told in the bible, that most Christian faiths follow the three topics you mentioned are sins. Thereby, since they are upheld as rights by the Liberal party, it makes absolutely no sense, for a Christian, to be affiliated with them.

I asked you, Jay, on another thread how you reconciled your Conservative Christian intolerance of homosexuality with the teachings of Jesus. I never got an answer. Perhaps you could take the time here. Jesus preached love and compassion for ones fellow man no matter what his beliefs or actions, he consistantly reached out to the down trodden, outcast and shunned. Do you honestly think he would advocate the exclusion and persecution of someone for their sexual preference? I notice your references to the bible are not inclusive of the teachings of Christ. Funny how you guys are selective of what passages you decide to follow.

I am not Jay and I am not a conservative Christian but I'll take a turn at this.

The intolerance of homosexuality is a religious tenet of their faith. Because they hold that belief it is axiomatic that this will be their political position. You say Jesus preached love and compassion that is partially true. Your inclusion of the phrase, "...no matter what his beliefs or actions, he consistantly reached out to the down trodden, outcast and shunned." is not accurate. In many instances Jesus shunned others. There is an interesting example in Matthew 15:22-28. In verse 24 he declares that he was, "sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In Paul's [a former murderer of Judean followers of Christ] epistle to the Romans he clearly declares the depravity of humans especially citing homosexuality. The context of Christianity is that it offers a road out from (in their view) depravity into salvation. Nowhere does it suggest otherwise. In fact, it calls for shunning those who refuse Christ.

The current political situation concerns itself with basic rights. Homosexuals can vote, work, etc. as can anyone else in America. What is currently being discussed is whether they can marry. This is an unprecedented demand. Nowhere is an example cited of any such "right" as none exists. What is at stake is the rights and priveleges assigned to married partners such as inheritance, tax laws, immunity from testifying against their partner, etc.

I do not see why an avowed Christian should not vote their conscience: just as I - who do not share their beliefs - think otherwise and support equal treatment under the law.

:shock:
Ancona
20-04-2004, 16:02
A few things--
As far as democracy is concerned. I've never heard it put that way, but that is an interesting and compelling arguement. Nevertheless, By the product of their own free wills, conservatives in a democracy should logically support people that support their own beliefs. I'm assuming you're reasonably liberal from the way you write, and you see some of these issues as being infringements of democratic freedoms. Ultraconservativism is, at its heart, anti-democratic. So is ultraliberalism. Nevertheless, we need people in a democratic society that include all parts of the policial spectrum, and such people are going to vote based on what they believe is right. It's not as contradictory as you may think.

As far as the rapture is concerned, you were probably schooled before that novel came out (it's name escapes me right now) that made the rapture a big phenomenon among conservative protestants (perhaps protestants as a whole.) The reason you don't remember it is that it isn't in the bible. It's based on some stuff in the bible, but the rapture phenomenon is mainly extrabiblical (which is odd, considering these are people that claim that all religious truths must come from the bible, and here we are with a religious "truth" that was made up by some novellist... it doesn't even have a 2000 year old tradition that could justify it. It's a very late 20th century idea.)
Xenophobialand
21-04-2004, 03:26