NationStates Jolt Archive

the title says it all. so come on people, let's see what you've got.

First off, convince me that your not.

depending on the issue, you'd be either an asshole or a freedom-loving asshole. I usually prefer the latter

Umm... I'll give you a dollar!

Free Trade / economic liberalisation is, well, it's in the name. So if you support that, you have to be somewhat liberal. Also, individual freedom is a liberal thing. And gun ownership is I suppose libertarian. So if you want to be in favour of any of those things, you must accept that you are, to an extent, a liberal.

Do you mean a Liberal or a liberal. Big difference. Especially as you already are a liberal but are almost certainly not a Liberal.

grr

Do you mean a Liberal or a liberal. Big difference. Especially as you already are a liberal but are almost certainly not a Liberal.

ah yes, i should have been clearer. i'll take whatever you've got but i meant 'liberal' in its american meaning.

Free Trade / economic liberalisation is, well, it's in the name. So if you support that, you have to be somewhat liberal.

jumping straight to the meat of it. it is on the issue of economics that me and liberals (both neo and american-style) go our seperate ways.

Do you mean a Liberal or a liberal. Big difference. Especially as you already are a liberal but are almost certainly not a Liberal.

ah yes, i should have been clearer. i'll take whatever you've got but i meant 'liberal' in its american meaning.

Well in that case, you need no convincing. As I said, from everything I have seen of your positions, you fal pretty well in line with the far left liberals - these include the communist, socialist, and anarchists.

Well in that case, you need no convincing. As I said, from everything I have seen of your positions, you fal pretty well in line with the far left liberals - these include the communist, socialist, and anarchists.

and from where i'm standing, there is a huge gulf between liberals and anything remotely like communism or anarchism. liberals believe in capitalism but with some sort of progressive tax structure and maybe a few vital industries run by the government.

You make a good point, both liberals and Liberals tend to argue over the details of capitalism, and are far from taking a radical or unconventional approach. It is certainly a far cry from socialism.

EDIT: Strangely, fascists use the two terms interchangably, even though the two ideologies are fundamentally different in many respects.

Search liberal under Googles images
Search conservative on Google images

I would agree that there is a difference between a Liberal and a "liberal" American liberals are still sort of conservatives.. they're just conservative lite! :P

Search liberal under Googles images
Search conservative on Google images

now this is an argument

liberal:
http://www.terere.com/terere/especiales/varios/refrescantes/01052001/liberal.jpg

conservative:
http://www.missouri.edu/~socwww/Book_Parade/Assets/Social%20Policy%20and%20the%20Conservative%20Agenda%20cropped.jpg

Ahh well :lol: I do the best I can

so how about some liberal comes on and tells me exactly what is so great about being a liberal. and not just "its better than being a racist conservative asshole"

so how about some liberal comes on and tells me exactly what is so great about being a liberal. and not just "its better than being a racist conservative asshole"

Liberals accept change, in fact they usually spear head it. Liberals are hopeful and don't start wars too often. Liberals are idealistic and care about their fellow man.. (person) Liberals don't try to censor. Liberals care about the poor. Liberals are responsible for the civil rights movement, the sexual revolution and a woman's right to choose. Liberals get impeached for getting blow jobs.. Liberals are not religious fanatics.. Liberals care about children and not giving them guns. As the Quaker Oats dude says, "It's just the right thing to do!"

so how about some liberal comes on and tells me exactly what is so great about being a liberal. and not just "its better than being a racist conservative asshole"Well to start with, when I think about my life and actions retrospectively and the part I've played in the lives of others (and I do that occasionally, another sure sign I'm not Conservative), I have no regrets or guilt.

liberals try to work for the working class. they are truly the peoples party. they are for social mobility and try to make it so that anyone can succeed no matter what economic situation they were born into. they believe that what drives the economy is giving the working class purchasing power. so, if you are not among the wealthiest 5% of the country and arent a major religious fanatic, the liberal party, in america, is the party that best suits your needs. its the workers party, as such, and believes that the country should be stopped from becoming polar. at the same time, liberals do believe in capitalism with restraints, since it allows for competition, innovation, hard work paying off and all that other crap you learned in hiogh school civics class. so economically, liberals try to give as much power to the bottom teers of ociety without stiffling the good parts of capitalism. socially, they support giving people as many oppurtunities as possible to climb the economic ladder but still let them live their lives with as little interference as possible. so do, become a liberal because then you will be looked after for the government and be given the oppurtunity to get rich with hard work, and be able to make personal decisions with little governmental intervention.

I think i need to stop you right there Chuck. There is no Liberal Party.

I think i need to stop you right there Chuck. There is no Liberal Party.

yeah, but theoretically, some where deep inside, thats what the *true* liberals want. its like claiming the republicans are for smaller goovernment or that there is a true conservative party.

Well..the alternative is to accept another four years of Bush.....

Well..the alternative is to accept another four years of Bush.....

yeah, but a democrat would be only slightly better at best. its not like the democrats have good record of fighting against neoliberal economic policies or refraining from bombing the shit out of countries on the other side of the globe or stopping the encroaching police state. it seems to me that they would do just as much stuff that i oppose, except that they would whisper sweet nothings into our ears instead of just yelling "yeehaw!" before they did it.

Sigh.

Economic liberal ~ capitalist
Social liberal ~ permissive
Economic libertarian ~ ultra-capitalist
Social libertarian ~ ultra-permissive

Liberals do not include Clinton, Kerry and Blair. Essentially, they believe in freedom, within reasonable limits. Inoffensive Centrists, you might say.

Sigh.

Economic liberal ~ capitalist
Social liberal ~ permissive
Economic libertarian ~ ultra-capitalist
Social libertarian ~ ultra-permissive

Liberals do not include Clinton, Kerry and Blair. Essentially, they believe in freedom, within reasonable limits. Inoffensive Centrists, you might say.

What do you mean by permissive.

I'll take a shot in the dark and say is it allowing others to do what they want (provide it affects no one else or consenting adults)?

Sorry, I mean 'permissive' in the sense you describe. Allowing the kind of behaviour that gets the Daily Mail frothing at the mouth.

I'm all in favour of a permissive society.

Labels suck. Generalisations suck.

In other news I believe there are hardly any liberals. The definitions of liberal also differ very much from country to county. In the U.S. it's a (near) insult, in Australia the liberals are actually conservatives, and in Belgium the liberal parties are generally the parties of the rich, the industrials and the self employed.

That's a good point, defining what constitutes a liberal is tricky, as the meaning of the term is particularly dependent on cultural perspective.

And I doubt that anyone could really shift the topic author or anyone else for that matter from one ideology to another. No-one could convince me to give communism or fascism a try, for example, and I'm sure the same goes for everyone.

Labels suck. Generalisations suck.

labels may suck, but they also are useful. there are people that are liberals (in whatever sense of the term) and the label is useful for talking about them as a group. where labels really begin to suck is when they don't actually refer to a real group or they refer to an overly broad group of people that would more reasonably be broken up into smaller more cohesive groups - for example, the claim earlier in this thread that 'liberal' include socialists, communists, and anarchists.

And I doubt that anyone could really shift the topic author or anyone else for that matter from one ideology to another. No-one could convince me to give communism or fascism a try, for example, and I'm sure the same goes for everyone.

it must be possible - i wasn't always an anarchist.

And I doubt that anyone could really shift the topic author or anyone else for that matter from one ideology to another. No-one could convince me to give communism or fascism a try, for example, and I'm sure the same goes for everyone.
it must be possible - i wasn't always an anarchist.
But I bet no-one converted you to anarchy. You almost certainly gradually changed your opinions as a result of observation and thought.

Do you mean a Liberal or a liberal. Big difference. Especially as you already are a liberal but are almost certainly not a Liberal.

ah yes, i should have been clearer. i'll take whatever you've got but i meant 'liberal' in its american meaning.

Well in that case, you need no convincing. As I said, from everything I have seen of your positions, you fal pretty well in line with the far left liberals - these include the communist, socialist, and anarchists. i dont view communists as either liberal or conservative

But I bet no-one converted you to anarchy. You almost certainly gradually changed your opinions as a result of observation and thought.

while it is true that no one particular individual convrted me, i can certainly point out several people/works that were major influences in the shift. people never change any deeply held beliefs in the heat of battle; that is done quietly within your own head. but something has to start the process. basically i would like to see what kind of stuff people could toss at me that they think would help someone make the jump to mainstream liberalism eventually.

This should be a fairly simple task:

If you want to be part of a group of people who agree with you wanting to;

1.) Marry your gay lover.
2.) Kill (Abort) a baby.
3.) Ruin a nations economy
4.) Uphold more rights to you if you are the criminal than the victim.
5.) Strive to get special rights for special interest groups.
6.) Remove any mention of the word God from anywhere that may be seen.
7.) Push the morality of your nation as far away as can be.
8.) Support you for cheating on your wife while you were supposed to be working for the public.
9.) Uphold the right of freedom of speech for anyone who isn't Conservative, Republican, slightly leaning to the right, or a believer in faith.
10.) Cause higher taxes.
11.) Weaken the nations military.
12.) Stubbornly refuse to believe there could possibly be anything good accomplished by the current US President. That would be George W. Bush, the right man for the job.