NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a continuation of the "A question of of ignorance to Catholics" thread posed by Rasysia. However, I am to lazy to scroll through three pages of posts to find it. So I will try to offer one simple explaination.

If you are an American and you want to speak to the President about a problem you are having or ask him a question, you may have the right to voice your opinion. However chances are you could not get to him, though you can speak to his Mother who can pass on the message and weild a little influence. This is the basic idea behind it, really simplified.

So basically instead of praying to Jesus, you're praying to Mary and asking her to pass it on next time she sees him? What if she forgets in the time it takes? Or is it best to ask around xmas before he comes home to have his washing done?

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I am not a Catholic. All my life I have been taught to pray to the Trinity, the father son and holy ghost. It says in the Bible to pray to god, and not anyone else. Dont pray to saints, or apostles, or anyone else. So, if it doesnt say in the bible to pray to Mary, why would anyone do it?

Because the Catholic church doesn't just run on the Bibke. It also uses Church Tradition and (to a lesser extent) apocraphyl writer and works like "The City of God."

I think (but will need to check up on this), that praying to the Virgin Mary was a late medieval invention, to try and bring "drill religion" to the masses. Most saints were created then too, and the making of statues and the praying to saints started in earnest around this time too.

If you are an American and you want to speak to the President about a problem you are having or ask him a question, you may have the right to voice your opinion. However chances are you could not get to him,

But with God things are different, you can always get to him, there are no engaged lines, he's never busy dealing with someone else, he's always there for you, so why would you need to go through a middle-man (woman)?

Actually the tradition of honoring and praying to saints predates the middle ages by a good bit. It has its roots in the early church, and is not an "invention" of the Catholic Church (the Orthodox Churches, by the way , also pray to the saints. Protestantism (as in most things) BROKE tradition and stopped using most of the devotional character of the older forms of Christianity. And, Rotovia, I think you're explanation of why it happens is misunderstood, and leads to a lot of confusion on the part of Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
Now there are two important things to understand here: one is the meaning of the word "pray." "To pray" simply means "to ask." My dictionary defines it more specifically as "1. beg; entreat. 2. petition for." Praying is altogether different than the act of worship. The saints (Mary included) are not worshipped by the Catholic Church. Only God is worshipped. I know that no one in the thread has yet claimed that they do worship Mary or the saints, but I want to make this point clear before I go on.
The other thing that we must understand about praying to the saints is the thing that is most commonly asked of the saints: "ora pro nobis" ("pray for us.") The truth about praying to the saints is that it is much like asking people in your prayer group to pray for something for you. Protestants do it all the time. More people praying for your cause is always beneficial, isn't it? Saints, the Church believes, are people that have already got into heaven. Who better to ask for help in praying for you and your needs than the faithfully departed in heaven who 1.) are clearly good and holy individuals in God's favor since they are in heaven and 2.) are spending eternity in prayer anyway, so they naturally have plenty of time to pray for everyone that asks them to do so.
The only other point I'd like to make is that Catholics do not HAVE to pray to the saints. Not all do. Not all Protestants attend a prayer group. It's an option, and it works on much the same premise: more people praying for you is better than praying alone.

There is only one intecessor between man and God the Father. And he is Jesus Christ the son of God.
To0 pray to anyone else for intercession is blasphemy.

Blaspheme v.i. speak irreverently of God or sacred things. (Blasphemy n. the act of blaspheming.) --Webster's Handy College Dictionary

No, it's not blasphemy unless while praying to the saints you are speaking ill of God (and I doubt many people are praying to the saints to complain about God). Perhaps the word you are looking for is heresy:

Heresy n. an unorthodox doctrine or opinion.

Now that depends on how one defines orthodox (or "right-thinking"), which is clearly open for debate. From where I'm sitting praying to the saints is certainly not heresy. It is completely orthodox. Actually Protestantism is heretical, while the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches are orthodox (they have kept the old beliefs alive). As I tried to explain, Uncle Bob--assuming you read anything that I or anyone else wrote--is that in praying to the saints we are asking them to pray for us. It's much like asking your prayer group to pray for you (or someone you love). Christ is certainly the sole intercessor to the Father. The saints are merely good people that we ask to pray for us.

OK now, here’s a bit of information for those who don’t already know. Demons by definition are beings that possess great powers, but not quite to the extent of being a god. Unfortunately this is an incorrect definition. Gods are really just the highest class of demons, or sometimes lesser demons that have somehow started a following. Yeshua himself was only a half breed. He managed to amass quite a following mostly because he openly used his powers to help people. Even after his death his followers have grown greater in size. Unfortunately though Yeshua is dead and many really have no clue what he was really about and just blindly follow everybody else.

Yeshua’s mother was full human. She has no powers and she was treated as any other human when she died. Going by the standard time table, she would already have been resurrected several times already, and would have no memory of her previous lifetimes.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

I really hope that that is intended to be facetious, not just an inflammatory neo-Gnostic remark.

I really hope that that is intended to be facetious, not just an inflammatory neo-Gnostic remark.
Who me? I’m a demon, I learned this stuff back home before I came to Earth.

I must say, that although it may be fun here, I would prefer to be back home. There’s just way too much culture shock. I would rather be somewhere where fighting was perfectly normal.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

wait, i thought God was omnipotent...so why is He incapable of giving His attention to whomever needs it? are you people really worshiping an "Almighty" who can't even answer his own phone calls? that's pretty weak, man. i mean, if you are going to have a God then why have such a helpless and inattentive one?

wait, i thought God was omnipotent...so why is He incapable of giving His attention to whomever needs it? are you people really worshiping an "Almighty" who can't even answer his own phone calls? that's pretty weak, man. i mean, if you are going to have a God then why have such a helpless and inattentive one?
Technically no god has ever been omni anything. People would like to think so because it gives them extra security, but most gods could care less. Even if they do decide to take an active part they get most of their information off the grapevine.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

wait, i thought God was omnipotent...so why is He incapable of giving His attention to whomever needs it? are you people really worshiping an "Almighty" who can't even answer his own phone calls? that's pretty weak, man. i mean, if you are going to have a God then why have such a helpless and inattentive one?
Technically no god has ever been omni anything. People would like to think so because it gives them extra security, but most gods could care less. Even if they do decide to take an active part they get most of their information off the grapevine.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

and exactly how many gods have you met? i don't know about anyone else here, but most of the people i know who believe in God also believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. personally i don't believe in any sort of God at all, but if i was going to believe in one i would agree with Sneetches; it would have to be a hardcore all-powerful diety, otherwise why bother worshiping?

Christ is certainly the sole intercessor to the Father. The saints are merely good people that we ask to pray for us.

Straight off catholic.org:
"...the person is in heaven and can intercede for us..."
"...grant we beseech Thee that, through the intercession of Saint Isidore..."

Lots more off http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.catholic.org+saint+intercession or your favourite search engine.

I'm not anti-Catholic, I just have grave doubts about the correctness of Roman Catholic doctrine in general and the specific beliefs of the average Catholic. You might pray with canonised saints and not see them as intercessors, but many Catholics pray to them for intercession, and I think that the practice of venerating saints is thus at fault.

bump

Which blessed virgin?

Britney Spears?

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"Everyone, please, bow your heads, and pretend to be serious."

and exactly how many gods have you met? i don't know about anyone else here, but most of the people i know who believe in God also believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. personally i don't believe in any sort of God at all, but if i was going to believe in one i would agree with Sneetches; it would have to be a hardcore all-powerful diety, otherwise why bother worshiping?
It’s in my original post on this topic. But if you want me to explain it again. All gods are really just demons that have helped influence people in one form or another. They are typically the highest class of demons and even have a great deal of respect among other demons. But none of them has ever claimed to be omni anything. To claim such would cause others to lose respect.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

and exactly how many gods have you met? i don't know about anyone else here, but most of the people i know who believe in God also believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. personally i don't believe in any sort of God at all, but if i was going to believe in one i would agree with Sneetches; it would have to be a hardcore all-powerful diety, otherwise why bother worshiping?
It’s in my original post on this topic. But if you want me to explain it again. All gods are really just demons that have helped influence people in one form or another. They are typically the highest class of demons and even have a great deal of respect among other demons. But none of them has ever claimed to be omni anything. To claim such would cause others to lose respect.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

actually, i would rather you explain how what you just said has any bearing on my point. it's very nice that you wanted to tell me about your personal superstitions, but that doesn't have much to do with what i was talking about.

actually, i would rather you explain how what you just said has any bearing on my point. it's very nice that you wanted to tell me about your personal superstitions, but that doesn't have much to do with what i was talking about.
It’s not a personal superstition, it’s reality. I’ve only met two gods in my lifetime and none of them were from this world. I met them on my home realm. One wasn’t even in the highest class, just a moderate-low class demon in an isolated area. She could influence water and she lived on a small island chain. So it made sense that locals would treat he like a goddess.

But I’m not surprised about your skepticism, in fact your skepticism is well welcomed. The only reason I’m allowed to tell people the truth is because most people will just write it off for two reasons. Because it’s both too different, and counter to mainstream beliefs and many will just ignore it.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

How do we know jesus didn't have any normal brothers or sisters? Because if he had, would the virgin still be a virgin? Didn't Josef ever get any?

SO Jesus is a Demon?

How can a God die exactly?

WHy would Gods who should have great wisdom fight normally?

I also don't get why Jesus would need his moms to be a secretary. Jesus can handle about a millions prayers a day but after that, Mary needs to take his calls.

SO Jesus is a Demon?
He was only half demon.
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Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

Did anyone ever see "Dogma", where the Seraphim comes down to the last Scion and speaks to her, and gives her a quest straight from God herself? And the Scion (Linda Fiorentino) asks why God couldn't give her the quest directly, and the Seraphim says because God's word is so powerful and pure that mere mortals can't understand it, and if they ever heard God's word, their eardrums would burst and their brains would cave in upon themselves. And that's why the Seraphim has to act as an intercessor on God's behalf. Sometimes I think of that when I hear this argument about why Catholics pray to intermediary deific beings.