NationStates Jolt Archive

"14 April 2004, Wednesday.
An Iraqi civilian has reportedly been beaten to death by US soldiers in the town of Kut, located some 180 kilometers southeast of Baghdad.
The Iraqi refused to take down a photo of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shiite leader, from the window of his car, AFP says, citing sources from the police."

I don't think we've ever seen a war faught like this...Where the "enemy" is always some poster child for "evilness".
So, now it's this al-Sadr guy... First it's Bin Laden and they invade Afghanistan, next up was Saddam and they invade Iraq...Now it's this Moqtada al-Sadr guy.
Is it really THAT easy to gain support for a war? Is holding up a picture of someone and saying "this is the enemy! Remember 9/11 god bless america" enough?"

Does anyone really think this man being captured will make everyone in Iraq all happy about being occupied by these cowboys?

Armies of occupation do brutal things. Just the way it goes, I guess. Sometimes, in the end it all works out. Sometimes it does not. Iraq is not looking hopeful.

Your post should have stated what is being reported "Allegedly beaten by US soldiers"..mebbe I'm just biased because of my veteran status but I just plain out refuse to believe that US servicemembers would have beate a man to death over a picture.

Well, I remeber you, salishe, say something along the lines that all Iraqis should be gratful to the US because of the removal of Saddam, right?

i want to collect some pokemon cards

Your post should have stated what is being reported "Allegedly beaten by US soldiers"..mebbe I'm just biased because of my veteran status but I just plain out refuse to believe that US servicemembers would have beate a man to death over a picture.

Well...I believe it...After all, the US refuses to be subject to the international law on war-crimes...So why not? Oh...right the soldiers are all "honest people" like those wankers I see downtown looking for drugs every weekend.

Untill you guys go by international law, you have no right to whine over war-crimes commited on your own soldiers.

*bumpy*

Your post should have stated what is being reported "Allegedly beaten by US soldiers"..mebbe I'm just biased because of my veteran status but I just plain out refuse to believe that US servicemembers would have beate a man to death over a picture.
Sure they would. They're human, same as the servicemen of any other country. And humans always go over the top in war - some war crimes are to be expected. It is only ever a question of extent. A few rapes and murders here and there conducted by individuals acting on their own initiative, or actual policy on the part of an armed force as a whole. The US armed forces in Iraq, like most Western armies in more recent times, clearly fit into the former category. Naturally this represents an improvement. But saying that in a war zone no war crimes are being committed at all, I don't buy it.

Your post should have stated what is being reported "Allegedly beaten by US soldiers"..mebbe I'm just biased because of my veteran status but I just plain out refuse to believe that US servicemembers would have beate a man to death over a picture.
Sure they would. They're human, same as the servicemen of any other country. And humans always go over the top in war - some war crimes are to be expected. It is only ever a question of extent. A few rapes and murders here and there conducted by individuals acting on their own initiative, or actual policy on the part of an armed force as a whole. The US armed forces in Iraq, like most Western armies in more recent times, clearly fit into the former category. Naturally this represents an improvement. But saying that in a war zone no war crimes are being committed at all, I don't buy it.

Even more so when the soldiers in question don't have to worry about being held responsible for their actions...

Where did the original story come from? I can believe it could happen, because in a situation like that, anything is possible. After all, My Lai apparently happened dozens of times and only got reported once, so I don't doubt it could have happened--I'd like some context, though.

Quite. I mean, we have heard of a couple of cases of US soldiers stationed on Pacific island bases being investigated by the authorities for sex crimes. The military is like any other human society, you get your fair share of fraudsters, violent criminals and psychopaths. And that's peace-times stuff. The chaos and adrenaline of war amplifies such characteristics. Indeed, we have heard of the same occuring in Iraq - allegedly around a hundred complaints of sexual violence, ones made by US soldiers against their own comrades. Then there are those Iraqi prisoners beaten to death by men of the UK 16th Air Assault Brigade, and photographic evidence of earlier abuses in a separate case.

And so when one hears of a US soldier deliberately killing a civilian, it makes no sense to say "that's ridiculous, it can't be true". Perhaps in a given case the allegations are false. But it does happen.

Where did the original story come from? I can believe it could happen, because in a situation like that, anything is possible. After all, My Lai apparently happened dozens of times and only got reported once, so I don't doubt it could have happened--I'd like some context, though.

from cnn, but I posted all that was on it there. So, sorry, no context.

The Military in general has never really helped any nation, look where it got Germany, and many other warlike nations, nowhere. However it will take far more than people like me to change the viewpoint of others, especially when a fair amount of people in this great United States I live in applaud Bush's effort.
Also I highly doubt the Iraqi's are grateful we're there, and of what our soldiers are doing, what do you think a child is going to do when he sees his father shot at the hands of a U.S. soldier, he's going to want revenge, add many more people of all ages to this category and you get a nice sense of hatred, that can last many decades.

People find it rather easy to say, thats the way the military is, and all, but it isn't, the military is meant to protect, and defend, not to be an offensive force, where incidents like this happen. We should all question why are these troops there, and the motives of this war, as the military isn't doing what its supposed to do.

Your post should have stated what is being reported "Allegedly beaten by US soldiers"..mebbe I'm just biased because of my veteran status but I just plain out refuse to believe that US servicemembers would have beate a man to death over a picture.


Surely you'd agree that there are some bad apples in all walks of life?

what do you think a child is going to do when he sees his father shot at the hands of a U.S. soldier, he's going to want revenge, add many more people of all ages to this category and you get a nice sense of hatred, that can last many decades.
That's the thing. Some Iraqi guy was interviewed by the New York Times, and he was saying something like, "What am I supposed to tell my son, he is 10, like a blank sheet of paper waiting for something to be written on it. Everything he sees, he remembers." And there you have the problem. Half the population of Iraq are kids, and they are watching.

The Military in general has never really helped any nation, look where it got Germany, and many other warlike nations, nowhere. However it will take far more than people like me to change the viewpoint of others, especially when a fair amount of people in this great United States I live in applaud Bush's effort.
Also I highly doubt the Iraqi's are grateful we're there, and of what our soldiers are doing, what do you think a child is going to do when he sees his father shot at the hands of a U.S. soldier, he's going to want revenge, add many more people of all ages to this category and you get a nice sense of hatred, that can last many decades.

I too doubt the Iraqis are over all happy with our being there at the moment. Who would like a foreign army in their country? But I do believe that the majority, who were severely opressed under Saddam Hussein, are happy to see him gone. We will be handing over the reigns of government by June 30th, about 10 weeks from now. What develops after that will be the true history of this event.

As for people's emotionality after a war, are you commenting from personal experience? Mine has been that many people from Germany and Japan as well as the allies, who lived through WWII, went on to forge friendships although they had lost buddies and loved ones in that war. I dare say more reconciled than not. It is a question of time.

People find it rather easy to say, thats the way the military is, and all, but it isn't, the military is meant to protect, and defend, not to be an offensive force, where incidents like this happen. We should all question why are these troops there, and the motives of this war, as the military isn't doing what its supposed to do.

Police are meant to protect and serve. The military has no such mission. The military IS meant to be an offensive force taking the fight to the enemy. The best defense is a strong offense is the basic operating principle behind any nations military.

Generalizations serve no real intellectual purpose. To base a premise on a generalization is to give way to an emotional predisposition and is intellectually dishonest. I have no doubt that incidents have occurred in Iraq as they do in your or my hometown. Is it in anyones interests to distract dispassionate analysis of the matter, in favor of magnifying some human failing, save those of someone with a preconcieved notion or an agenda? I think not.

I do not propose we discard questioning our involvement or the political issues it raises. But it makes for a better inquiry when premises are equally examined along with the facts at hand. It is also better to have the awareness that we do not possess all the facts.

:shock:

...and now the yanks have put a curfew. Anyone seen outside past curfew will be shot.
They're crazy.