NationStates Jolt Archive

There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that supposedly was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or whatever), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points.

Here is the list.

17 Points of the True Church of Christ

1 Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9 The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
17 "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

Or the true Church could be the one that was founded by the Apostle St. Peter and continued into modernday. The Holy Church of Saint Peter (The Catholic Church)

Or the true Church could be the one that was founded by the Apostle St. Peter and continued into modernday. The Holy Church of Saint Peter (The Catholic Church)No one ever accounts for the Priesthood being passed to Linus... everything I've read so far says Linuis assumed the priesthood at Peter's death.

There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that supposedly was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or whatever), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points.

Here is the list.

17 Points of the True Church of Christ

1 Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9 The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
17 "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

I wasn't planning on bashing any mormons, my cricket bat still needs oiling...jk

I can't see how that post proves anything Raysia.

Or the true Church could be the one that was founded by the Apostle St. Peter and continued into modernday. The Holy Church of Saint Peter (The Catholic Church)No one ever accounts for the Priesthood being passed to Linus... everything I've read so far says Linuis assumed the priesthood at Peter's death.He took up the banner of Peter much as Aaron (I think it was Aaron) did for Moses.

Hmm... this requires more research... I'll get back to you when i can refute that point :)

But really, that one point is the center of contraversy... who ahs the priesthood? Was there an apostacy?

You know, these people are quite possibly fictitious.
I don't mean to disrespect beliefs, just an opposing thought.

You know, these people are quite possibly fictitious.
I don't mean to disrespect beliefs, just an opposing thought.

Exactly! And when you look at it like that, it makes it all the more daft that these religions fight amongst themselves.

Raysia, you provoke what you decry as "the bashing of Mormons" by your continual posting of their propaganda.

Enough of the missionary-martyr complex, it grows tiresome.

Hmm... this requires more research... I'll get back to you when i can refute that point :)

But really, that one point is the center of contraversy... who ahs the priesthood? Was there an apostacy?The Catholic Church bases it's claim to Preisthood on Jesus's referance to St. Peter "On this (you) I will build my Church". The Eastern, or Orthodox Churches also hold Preisthood under the decision of the Second Vatican Council.

Raysia I have a possible RP idea for us, you intrested?

You know, these people are quite possibly fictitious.
I don't mean to disrespect beliefs, just an opposing thought.

Exactly! And when you look at it like that, it makes it all the more daft that these religions fight amongst themselves.

It's like Tolkein fans arguing about the role of Gandalf the Grey :lol: :roll:

Umm, I believe just about every thing gets bashed around here. Religion, war, countries, gay people, nazis, atheists, I'm sure I'm forgetting some thing..lol It's all fair game and it's all good.

Let's not forget all the threads Ray has made bashing, gays, liberals, any one who didn't agree with him.

I don't think he has the high ground on this.. but that's just my personal opinion. :wink:

The only correct and true Church is the Church started by St. Peter as he was the one who Jesus said to:

"You are the rock on which I will build my foundation" and "I will give you the keys to the gates of Heaven" (something to that effect).

All who belong to the Church of St. Peter alone are the ones who belong to the true Church.

Those who submit and are devoted to this are the ones who belong to the true Church of Christianity as St. Peter was given 'it' by Jesus and thus the line passed down to our present Pope, His Holiness John Paul II.

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

The ROMAN church of Christ... is this a sick joke? That's like a NAZI church of Judaism...

All this proves Raysia is that you are so uncomfortable in the legitimacy of your own church that you feel obliged to defend it even when no one is attacking it.

According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions),

wow... a pointless story that even you admit probably isn't true


what was your point: These nameless creatures of fiction chose Mormanism and so should you!

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

The ROMAN church of Christ... is this a sick joke? That's like a NAZI church of Judaism...

No, it's like a Church founded in ROME

Trying to use the big book to support your cause is the first step to becoming a fundamentalist. Keep that in mind the next time you say that there are no Mormon fundamentalists.
__________________________________________________
Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

wow, and the strange thing is i still don't care...

happily my beefs with Mormonism are not at all disturbed by whether or not it is a real incarnation of Christianity. that actually hurts your case quite a bit, by removing a large portion of creativity (which i see as the only real beauty of religion).

What's a mormon?

yeah and Joseph Smith was a Mason and masons are satan worshipers.

My beef with Mormonism (other than my general beefs about all religions) is the nutters in suits who keep hassling me onstreet corners. Get them, to stop! And the Jovo's!

The only reason I bash mormons Is because its easy to get them Riled up.

A logical argument stands no matter who it comes from. (The problem being, their studies aren't in the slightest bit elucidated upon.)

However, at the end of the day, Mormons believe there is a magical invisible man who lives in the sky.

My beef with Mormonism (other than my general beefs about all religions) is the nutters in suits who keep hassling me onstreet corners. Get them, to stop! And the Jovo's!

Haha. The Mormons used to harass my Muslim friend all the time, until her mother chased them away with a broom. True story.

The next time I meet one of your raving lunatic agents I'll think "oh, Ray wrote a long pointless post so I better not say anything"

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

So Chaldean Catholics and Coptic Catholics are not part of the true Church?

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

So Chaldean Catholics and Coptic Catholics are not part of the true Church?

10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

16The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)


1. Jesus and God are the same being, existing as 2 different persons in the trinity. Jesus pre existed as creator not created (john 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3) Therefore being the creator, Jesus could not have been the brother of Lucifer because Lucifer was created (Ezekiel 28:13-15) Jesus pre existed eternally as God and had no begining (John 1:1, Micah 5:12, Col 1:17-19, Heb 1:8.)

2. God does NOT have a physical body of flesh and bone, although he can appear as a person. No one has seen the Father (John 6:46) And god appears as many different things in the Old Testament (exodus 3:1-4 Burning bush, Judges 6:22 An Angel, and Genesis 18:1-2 A Human)

3. Regarding the verse about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor:

In Verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ is the first one raised -- in a glorified body -- and then who are His at His return. Next, verses 24 - 29 mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79. The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.
Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we. This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

dbl post

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

dude, calm down

2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

This passage says that Christ is the head of the Church, not that His name has to be in its name. Plus, isn't every church that believes in Christ meeting that qualification anyway, considering that they are all "Christian" churchs?

6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
Every church I've heard of, Christian and otherwise, does not charge for the preaching of the Gospel, which is what these passages discourage. Putting money in the collection plate is voluntary.

9 The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
Christ appointed ONLY 12 apostles with the power to "drive out demons".

10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
Ok, I have no idea how someone thought this up. In both verses, Jesus says that he and the Father are the same. "We are one", it says. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
The rest of the points that aren't Biblically inaccurate are common to many, if not most, Christian churches. Sorry to burst your bubble.

bump

ok, the fact is your post really doesn't prove anything except that you don't like it when people come down on your church for its beliefs. The scriptures your named, mostly are taken out of contects, if you were to actually study instead of taking someone else word for it. (ie Joseph Smith) you might have actually determined that. If you are going to use a verse, read the verses before and after..and maybe perhaps that chapter...yes I know this may come as a stretch for you, but you will be surprised the other information you will find.

Or the true Church could be the one that was founded by the Apostle St. Peter and continued into modernday. The Holy Church of Saint Peter (The Catholic Church)
The Catholic Church was startd by Emporer Constantine, not Peter. When Constantine conquered the Roman Empire he wanted to unify all the different Christian sects that taught different interpretations of the scriptures. So, he established a universal church, called the Catholic Church. Catholic, by definition means nothing more than "Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive; universal". This is how the Catholic Church came to be for all you history scholars.

Hmm... this requires more research... I'll get back to you when i can refute that point :)

But really, that one point is the center of contraversy... who ahs the priesthood? Was there an apostacy?The Catholic Church bases it's claim to Preisthood on Jesus's referance to St. Peter "On this (you) I will build my Church". The Eastern, or Orthodox Churches also hold Preisthood under the decision of the Second Vatican Council.
thats a pretty convenient insertion of (you) :)

The only correct and true Church is the Church started by St. Peter as he was the one who Jesus said to:

"You are the rock on which I will build my foundation" and "I will give you the keys to the gates of Heaven" (something to that effect).



Phonetically, at least by the Latin that I learned.
"Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram, aedificabo ecclesiam meam, et porte inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam. Et tibi dabo, claves regni coelo rum."

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I shall build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And to thee I will give the keys of Heaven. - Tu Es Petrus, G. Palestrina.
Text: Matthew 16: 18,19.

I have no point to argue with you guys on this one, being rather indifferent to the both sides in this debate. I just thought I'd provide the quotation.

With the outrageous origins, and bizarre customs of the Mormon religion..is it any wonder that they get bashed on?
if that church started today...it would be regarded as a joke.

The only correct and true Church is the Church started by St. Peter as he was the one who Jesus said to:

"You are the rock on which I will build my foundation" and "I will give you the keys to the gates of Heaven" (something to that effect).



Phonetically, at least by the Latin that I learned.
"Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram, aedificabo ecclesiam meam, et porte inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam. Et tibi dabo, claves regni coelo rum."

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I shall build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And to thee I will give the keys of Heaven. - Tu Es Petrus, G. Palestrina.
Text: Matthew 16: 18,19.

I have no point to argue with you guys on this one, being rather indifferent to the both sides in this debate. I just thought I'd provide the quotation.I've heard translators argue that Jesus was making a pun there--Peter was known in Hebrew as Cephas, which I believe is Hebrew for "stone" and which is petrus in Latin. Don't know if that actually adds anything to the conversation, now that I think about it.

I'll go now.

THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRISTENDOM IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NO OTHERS.

So Chaldean Catholics and Coptic Catholics are not part of the true Church?

Well, if they acknowledge the Pope as the head of their Chruch then they are.

Peter was known in Hebrew as Cephas, which I believe is Hebrew for "stone" and which is petrus in Latin. Don't know if that actually adds anything to the conversation, now that I think about it.

I'll go now.

But they spoke Aramaic....

Well, if they acknowledge the Pope as the head of their Chruch then they are.

Christians believe that God is the head of the Church...

Peter was known in Hebrew as Cephas, which I believe is Hebrew for "stone" and which is petrus in Latin. Don't know if that actually adds anything to the conversation, now that I think about it.

I'll go now.

But they spoke Aramaic....Now I'm confusing myself--I think Cephas was his name in Greek, which, the Gibson movie notwithstanding, was the most often spoken and written language in the region at the time, although it was being phased out by Latin at the time. So the translators, had they left Cephas in there, wouldn't have had the wordplay of Petrus and the "rock" on which to build the church.

Well, if they acknowledge the Pope as the head of their Chruch then they are.

Christians believe that God is the head of the Church...
But the Pope is God's representative on earth....

If you believe that, then what is the point of having priests?

Well, if they acknowledge the Pope as the head of their Chruch then they are.

Christians believe that God is the head of the Church...
But the Pope is God's representative on earth....

If you believe that, then what is the point of having priests?


Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

God is head of the church.

bump

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

God is head of the church.


But the Pope is God's representative on earth....


And from where does this pope draw this authority, where does God name the pope? Nowhere! The catholic heirarchy are mirror images of the very Pharisees Jesus rebeled against!!