NationStates Jolt Archive

what's a hail Mary?

I know what the words are, but what is it for? What does it mean? Why is mary worth hailing? What does it mean to do multiple hail marys as repentance or whatever?

I means you should bring out an umbrella

Its a last ditch desperate attempt at a long pass for a touchdown in an American football game.

Hail Marys are asking Mary, the mother of Jesus, to pray to god for us, like an intercesser

saying it more than once is supposed to make it work more effectively. Mary is worth hailing because of she is supposedly one of the only people taken into heavon body and soul.

what's a hail Mary?

I know what the words are, but what is it for? What does it mean? Why is mary worth hailing? What does it mean to do multiple hail marys as repentance or whatever?It is prayer to invoke the Blessed Virgin to approach her Son and the Father on our behalf and as such a huge part of Catholic prayer and the Rosary itself.

Interesting...

Interesting...How so?

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

It's one of the more unique things about the Catholic Church, I think, along with their use of the saints as intercessors. Some scholars have argued that it was a way to convert polytheistic groups to Christianity--allow them to confer worship on more than just the Father by interposing saints and Mary as secondary gods--the Mother Goddess becomes the Mother of God, for instance.

This will sound picky, but can you place a capital c on Catholic.

This will sound picky, but can you place a capital c on Catholic.

only if you start placing a capital "C" on cult

This will sound picky, but can you place a capital c on Catholic.

only if you start placing a capital "C" on cultI do if it's a proper noun. Say... Cult of Dionysus.

This will sound picky, but can you place a capital c on Catholic.

only if you start placing a capital "C" on cultscrew you tex.

Rotovia: Edited

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :P

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

OMG! You don't see her significance.....

1) She was the Mother of God on Earth!!!
2) She was without original sin - the only human being.
3) She was taken into heaven body and soul.

That is how significant she is!

This will sound picky, but can you place a capital c on Catholic.

only if you start placing a capital "C" on cultI do if it's a proper noun. Say... Cult of Dionysus.

Dionysus was a Pope! :D

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

OMG! You don't see her significance.....

1) She was the Mother of God on Earth!!!
2) She was without original sin - the only human being.
3) She was taken into heaven body and soul.

That is how significant she is!
Just wondering, whats the reference to numbers 2 & 3. thanx :)

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

OMG! You don't see her significance.....

1) She was the Mother of God on Earth!!!
2) She was without original sin - the only human being.
3) She was taken into heaven body and soul.

That is how significant she is!that's why i called this thread out of ignorance... because I don't know what you guys believe :P

This is why I wish they'd teach religion in schools :P

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :PThe stick up your butt?

A 2x4 upside your head?

Keep talkin.

This is why I wish they'd teach religion in schools :P

They do....at least in the UK we do (although you can tell it's very Protestant).

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :PThe stick up your butt?

A 2x4 upside your head?

Keep talkin.
why so mean now Raysia. chill.

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :PThe stick up your butt?

A 2x4 upside your head?

Keep talkin.
why so mean now Raysia. chill.the guy just gets on my nerves...

This will sound picky, but can you place a capital c on Catholic.

only if you start placing a capital "C" on cultscrew you tex.

Rotovia: EditedThank you Raysia. You are perhaps one of the few gracious and considerate members of this site.

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :PThe stick up your butt?

A 2x4 upside your head?

Keep talkin.
why so mean now Raysia. chill.the guy just gets on my nerves...
well yea, but we should prolly get used to it. I just smile and think of how happy I am to know the truth and to know real joy :D . Thats all that matters Raysia, just be happy and loving and kind :wink:

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :PThe stick up your butt?

A 2x4 upside your head?

Keep talkin.
why so mean now Raysia. chill.the guy just gets on my nerves...
well yea, but we should prolly get used to it. I just smile and think of how happy I am to know the truth and to know real joy :D . Thats all that matters Raysia, just be happy and loving and kind :wink:Everyone chill out. This should help http://www.stclementchurch.org/weddings/popup/SchubertAveMaria.html

Mary is held to be without Original Sin for the simple reason that the concept of Original Sin explains that the sin passes from parents to children. It is the only sin that is not subject to the "the sins of the father are not vested in the son" rule.

So the theological basis for saying that Mary was without Original Sin is that Jesus was entirely without sin throughout his life. He could not have achieved this were Mary born with Original Sin (else he would have inherited it through her, as his human mother) and so it makes theological sense to say that Mary was born without sin.

The Assumption of Mary...I'm not so wise as to where that one comes from. Fortunately for us both, I found This Site! (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm) to look at.

As for the actual Hail Mary Prayer, here's the 10-second breakdown
Hail Mary, full of Grace - a saultation
The Lord is with Thee - statement of fact: Mary is in Heaven, and so is Christ
Blessed are thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus - essentially, these two lines are Elizabeth's greeting to Mary

That first bit is essentially one long greeting. Now the good part.

Holy Mary, Mother of God - Mary is mother of Jesus. Jesus is one in being with God. Mary is thus also mother of the incarnation of God.
Pray for us sinners - the actual intent of the prayer, asking Mary to pray for us to Jesus, to pray with us to Jesus
Now and at the hour of our death - we want her to always pray for us and with us
Amen - D'uh

:D Aiera

Aiera- VERY interesting with that original sin bit... very interesting indeed.

thanks!

It's one of the more unique things about the Catholic Church, I think, along with their use of the saints as intercessors.


Yup!


Some scholars have argued that it was a way to convert polytheistic groups to Christianity--allow them to confer worship on more than just the Father by interposing saints and Mary as secondary gods--the Mother Goddess becomes the Mother of God, for instance.

That sounds almost like a Jack Chick tract.

;) Aiera

Aiera- VERY interesting with that original sin bit... very interesting indeed.

thanks!

Cools, glad it helped.

:D Aiera

Cult of mormonism


insanity of atheism :PThe stick up your butt?

A 2x4 upside your head?

Keep talkin.
why so mean now Raysia. chill.the guy just gets on my nerves...

i enjoys getting on peoples nerves, but i tried to ridicule atheism and mormonism at the same time, so whats wrong? :?

Its a last ditch desperate attempt at a long pass for a touchdown in an American football game.

Seeing as the actual serious question has already been answered, can I just say that this answer rocked! 8)

As regards Religous Education in the UK, I think it is a bit hit or miss.

My wife is a catholic and I am a non believer but baptised in the Church of Scotland.

The fact is that I know more about the bible than she does and I dont believe! The conversion story about Paul on the road to Damascus, she'd never heard of it! The judgement of Solomon, again no knowledge. She had heard about Joshua but didn't understand his significance to Jericho.

And she's not the only one, I did a quick straw poll in my office and the majority of people don't know these aspects of the bible and most don't care.

I like the bible but it should be placed in the fantasy/fiction section of a library! Cue a blast from God and/or fanatic replies from christians.

By the way, I do respect your beliefs and the above was a joke.

I even know how to do a Hail Mary and an Our Father from memory so my penance will be 20 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers, OK!

:twisted:

As regards Religous Education in the UK, I think it is a bit hit or miss.

My wife is a catholic and I am a non believer but baptised in the Church of Scotland.

The fact is that I know more about the bible than she does and I dont believe! The conversion story about Paul on the road to Damascus, she'd never heard of it! The judgement of Solomon, again no knowledge. She had heard about Joshua but didn't understand his significance to Jericho.

And she's not the only one, I did a quick straw poll in my office and the majority of people don't know these aspects of the bible and most don't care.

I like the bible but it should be placed in the fantasy/fiction section of a library! Cue a blast from God and/or fanatic replies from christians.

By the way, I do respect your beliefs and the above was a joke.

I even know how to do a Hail Mary and an Our Father from memory so my penance will be 20 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers, OK!

:twisted:Amusing, but you cannot give yourself penance.

Now before I ask this question please do not take it the wrong way, my wife is a catholic and I fully respect your views and beliefs but wondered if somebody could clarify the following:

If the Trinity means that God, Jesus and the Holy Father are all the same person then how does this figure in regards to Mary?

Mary was impreganated by the Holy Spirit and then gave birth to Jesus, but they are both the same person according to the Trinity concept, aren't they? Doesn't that make Jesus his own father? :?

Doesn't that also mean that Mary is both the wife of God and the Mother of God?

I seriously do not mean to offend anybody with my query but I just don't understand this aspect of christianity.

Not at all. In order for God the Son to come to Earth he required a Mortal form, so God the Holy Spirit impregnated the Blessed Virgin with the Son of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus).

Again, the Holy Spirit put God's Son Jesus into Mary so he could be one of us.

As for the actual Hail Mary Prayer, here's the 10-second breakdown
Hail Mary, full of Grace - a saultation
The Lord is with Thee - statement of fact: Mary is in Heaven, and so is Christ
Blessed are thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus - essentially, these two lines are Elizabeth's greeting to Mary

That first bit is essentially one long greeting. Now the good part.

Holy Mary, Mother of God - Mary is mother of Jesus. Jesus is one in being with God. Mary is thus also mother of the incarnation of God.
Pray for us sinners - the actual intent of the prayer, asking Mary to pray for us to Jesus, to pray with us to Jesus
Now and at the hour of our death - we want her to always pray for us and with us
Amen - D'uh

:D Aiera

Wow! That's a really good breakdown! I like it a lot. :D

Mary is held to be without Original Sin for the simple reason that the concept of Original Sin explains that the sin passes from parents to children. It is the only sin that is not subject to the "the sins of the father are not vested in the son" rule.

So the theological basis for saying that Mary was without Original Sin is that Jesus was entirely without sin throughout his life. He could not have achieved this were Mary born with Original Sin (else he would have inherited it through her, as his human mother) and so it makes theological sense to say that Mary was born without sin.

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.

By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.

Doesn't that make Jesus his own father? :?


Jesus the Son, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all one in the Trinity...

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.


Actually, you hit the nail on the head — the other half of the doctrinal teachings concerning Mary's freedom from Original Sin is that she was so cleansed at conception by God.

Of course, one could ask why God would not just similarily cleanse Jesus, and as near as I can tell it's a public relations thing. There's no doubt that God could have so cleansed Jesus, but if he had been born of one who posessed Original Sin, it would leave room for his critics to later work with.


By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.

I don't see any logical leaps here. Mind you, I also don't put anything past God, so that might have something to do with it.

:? Aiera

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

OMG! You don't see her significance.....

1) She was the Mother of God on Earth!!!
2) She was without original sin - the only human being.
3) She was taken into heaven body and soul.

That is how significant she is!

Could you please list the Biblical verses that make note of numbers two and three?

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

OMG! You don't see her significance.....

1) She was the Mother of God on Earth!!!
2) She was without original sin - the only human being.
3) She was taken into heaven body and soul.

That is how significant she is!

Could you please list the Biblical verses that make note of numbers two and three?

The Bible doesn't, but
2. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
3. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm (which give proof from scripture, proof from tradition and proof from reason)

Reminds me of a joke me and a few of my ex-Catholic mates had when we were younger. Why is it called the assumption of Mary? Because it is assumed to have happened

Mary is held to be without Original Sin for the simple reason that the concept of Original Sin explains that the sin passes from parents to children. It is the only sin that is not subject to the "the sins of the father are not vested in the son" rule.

So the theological basis for saying that Mary was without Original Sin is that Jesus was entirely without sin throughout his life. He could not have achieved this were Mary born with Original Sin (else he would have inherited it through her, as his human mother) and so it makes theological sense to say that Mary was born without sin.

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.

By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.Which is explained through Jesus being the decendant of David.

I even know how to do a Hail Mary and an Our Father from memory so my penance will be 20 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers, OK!

:twisted:Amusing, but you cannot give yourself penance.

You're right, you can't give yourself penance, penance given by a priest is usually in the form of those prayers.

Aiera gave a good rundown as to the Hail Mary... the prayer is also very much involved with what is called the Rosary, which is a set of prayers dedicated to Mary. 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, 1 Glory Be. This done five times is the basic structure of the prayers, and is guided by a set of "Rosary beads".

(Glory Be is very simple, it goes "Glory be to the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, as it is was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, Amen")

Mary is held to be without Original Sin for the simple reason that the concept of Original Sin explains that the sin passes from parents to children. It is the only sin that is not subject to the "the sins of the father are not vested in the son" rule.

So the theological basis for saying that Mary was without Original Sin is that Jesus was entirely without sin throughout his life. He could not have achieved this were Mary born with Original Sin (else he would have inherited it through her, as his human mother) and so it makes theological sense to say that Mary was born without sin.

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.

By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.Which is explained through Jesus being the decendant of David.Aiera's explanation makes more sense than yours does--are you suggesting that the line of David was without original sin? Wouldn't that negate pretty much all of the books describing the Kings of Israel and Judah?

I've never understood the focus on Mary.. but then I'm not a Catholic.. I don't really see her significance, either way, though. :?

Well, me and CE agree on something.

Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, I would say she is above the average woman, or person for that matter.

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.


I think that God is really good at PR. Think about it...if Jesus is born to a mother posessed of Original Sin, God is fully capable of cleansing him, just like that. But it gives his detractors ammunition to work with. Even if it isn't true, they can deny his divinity with the claim.

Thus, the cleansing of Mary. It covers all the bases - not only was Jesus was born in a state of complete grace, fully human and yet fully divine and born without sin, but there is no room to deny his total divinity based on Original Sin and the heredity thereof.


By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.

I don't see that as being all that illogical. But then, I've learned not to put anything past God, so...

:D Aiera

Well, I do find it interesting that in the Gospels, Mary isn't mentioned as being anything all that special, and yet some years after her death, she becomes a revered figure. Pardon me, but I just get the feeling that there were a bunch of "scholars" sitting around debating all this little arcana and one day one of them just pulled this out of his ass--looked at the facts on the ground, saw that the people they were trying to convert were used to worshiping a goddess, and came up with this idea and decided to work backwards to find a way to make it work logically. They pull and stretch at the legend a bit, and they come up with this beautiful piece of inherently flawed logic--and it's beautiful because of its flaws, not in spite of them. I truly admire it.

Well, I do find it interesting that in the Gospels, Mary isn't mentioned as being anything all that special, and yet some years after her death, she becomes a revered figure. Pardon me, but I just get the feeling that there were a bunch of "scholars" sitting around debating all this little arcana and one day one of them just pulled this out of his ass--looked at the facts on the ground, saw that the people they were trying to convert were used to worshiping a goddess, and came up with this idea and decided to work backwards to find a way to make it work logically. They pull and stretch at the legend a bit, and they come up with this beautiful piece of inherently flawed logic--and it's beautiful because of its flaws, not in spite of them. I truly admire it.

:idea: THE TRUTH

The Catholics shamelessly turned Mary into a false god for political gain!

:idea: THE TRUTH

The Catholics shamelessly turned Mary into a false god for political gain!
:idea: THE TRUTH
Mary gave birth to the son of God. God had a reason why he picked her, so she must be a little above the average woman.

:idea: THE TRUTH
Mary gave birth to the son of God. God had a reason why he picked her, so she must be a little above the average woman.

God did have a reason to pick her... this doesn't mean you should worship her!

There are many great people in the Bible -- that doesn't negate the First Comandment!!

:idea: THE TRUTH
Mary gave birth to the son of God. God had a reason why he picked her, so she must be a little above the average woman.

God did have a reason to pick her... this doesn't mean you should worship her!

There are many great people in the Bible -- that doesn't negate the First Comandment!!

Catholics are asking Mary (and the other saints) to pray for them, I guess in the hopes that she (they) are a little closer to God so will catch his ear more readily. They're not worshiping Mary or the Saints, just honoring them and asking them for help. Someone Catholic correct me if I'm wrong.

:idea: THE TRUTH
Mary gave birth to the son of God. God had a reason why he picked her, so she must be a little above the average woman.

God did have a reason to pick her... this doesn't mean you should worship her!
There are many great people in the Bible -- that doesn't negate the First Comandment!!
the first commandment, You shall have no other gods before Me, does not exclude Mary, or any saints, to be elevated above regular people.

Catholics are asking Mary (and the other saints) to pray for them, I guess in the hopes that she (they) are a little closer to God so will catch his ear more readily. They're not worshiping Mary or the Saints, just honoring them and asking them for help. Someone Catholic correct me if I'm wrong.You have the dogma correct. What I've been talking about is how the dogma developed. Basically it was a tool for conversion--Mary took the place of the mother goddess that existed in many cultures, and they linked the festival of fertility to the death and rebirth of Christ and just fudged the name a little--Astarte became Easter. It's brilliant in terms of a meme perpetuating itself throughout generations, just like a genetic trait does.

the first commandment, You shall have no other gods before Me, does not exclude Mary, or any saints, to be elevated above regular people.

When a catholic prays to anyone besides God or pretends a man has the power to forgive his sins then he is guilty of idolitry; even if it is well meaning, a sin is a sin.

Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, I would say she is above the average woman, or person for that matter.

She has to be...she is the Mother of God, someone who Jesus loves beyond all other things (bar God) and someone who brought into this world the Son of God.

If that doesn't make her more than special I don't know what would.

God did have a reason to pick her... this doesn't mean you should worship her!

We don't worship her...but that doesn't mean we won't hold her in high esteem.

CE, we agree on something.

is the world comming to an end?

Catholics are asking Mary (and the other saints) to pray for them, I guess in the hopes that she (they) are a little closer to God so will catch his ear more readily. They're not worshiping Mary or the Saints, just honoring them and asking them for help. Someone Catholic correct me if I'm wrong.You have the dogma correct. What I've been talking about is how the dogma developed. Basically it was a tool for conversion--Mary took the place of the mother goddess that existed in many cultures, and they linked the festival of fertility to the death and rebirth of Christ and just fudged the name a little--Astarte became Easter. It's brilliant in terms of a meme perpetuating itself throughout generations, just like a genetic trait does.

I'm aware of the point you are arguing, but even using Mary as a tool isn't using her to replace God. You said it yourself, it was replacing the Goddess. None of that equates with replacing God with Mary, so doesn't break the 1st Commandment. That was my point. I couldn't figure out why Texastambul equated Catholics asking Mary to pray for them with Mary replacing God.

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

CE, we agree on something.

is the world comming to an end?

I see the four horsemen of the apocolypse! :shock: :lol: :shock:

Catholics are asking Mary (and the other saints) to pray for them, I guess in the hopes that she (they) are a little closer to God so will catch his ear more readily. They're not worshiping Mary or the Saints, just honoring them and asking them for help. Someone Catholic correct me if I'm wrong.You have the dogma correct. What I've been talking about is how the dogma developed. Basically it was a tool for conversion--Mary took the place of the mother goddess that existed in many cultures, and they linked the festival of fertility to the death and rebirth of Christ and just fudged the name a little--Astarte became Easter. It's brilliant in terms of a meme perpetuating itself throughout generations, just like a genetic trait does.

I'm aware of the point you are arguing, but even using Mary as a tool isn't using her to replace God. You said it yourself, it was replacing the Goddess. None of that equates with replacing God with Mary, so doesn't break the 1st Commandment. That was my point. I couldn't figure out why Texastambul equated Catholics asking Mary to pray for them with Mary replacing God.Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.

CE, we agree on something.

is the world comming to an end?

I see the four horsemen of the apocolypse! :shock: :lol: :shock:


and a fith, me. the atheist :twisted:

and a fith, me. the atheist :twisted:

I thought that you didn't believe in those sort of things! :wink:

Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.
you could date the discresion all the way back to the great schism of 1415.

Catholics are asking Mary (and the other saints) to pray for them, I guess in the hopes that she (they) are a little closer to God so will catch his ear more readily. They're not worshiping Mary or the Saints, just honoring them and asking them for help. Someone Catholic correct me if I'm wrong.You have the dogma correct. What I've been talking about is how the dogma developed. Basically it was a tool for conversion--Mary took the place of the mother goddess that existed in many cultures, and they linked the festival of fertility to the death and rebirth of Christ and just fudged the name a little--Astarte became Easter. It's brilliant in terms of a meme perpetuating itself throughout generations, just like a genetic trait does.

I'm aware of the point you are arguing, but even using Mary as a tool isn't using her to replace God. You said it yourself, it was replacing the Goddess. None of that equates with replacing God with Mary, so doesn't break the 1st Commandment. That was my point. I couldn't figure out why Texastambul equated Catholics asking Mary to pray for them with Mary replacing God.Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.

Point taken. Thanks

Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.

:idea: The Truth

Yes, you have it right! Listen to their doublethink about this:
"We don't worship Mary, we just pray to her!"

and a fith, me. the atheist :twisted:

I thought that you didn't believe in those sort of things! :wink:

well arent we atheists agents of the devil? i'll have to ask my master if i can be a horseman :)

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

:idea: The Truth

Yes, you have it right! Listen to their doublethink about this:
"We don't worship Mary, we just pray to her!"

WRONG

We pray with Mary, asking her to mediate between us and God, on our behalf. It's like asking a friend to mediate between us and someone else.

Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.

:idea: The Truth

Yes, you have it right! Listen to their doublethink about this:
"We don't worship Mary, we just pray to her!"Don't you listen? They pray THROUGH her. She is an intercessor.

Just like mormons pray to God through Christ. Some protestants do that too I suppose.

Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.

:idea: The Truth

Yes, you have it right! Listen to their doublethink about this:
"We don't worship Mary, we just pray to her!"Will you get it through your thick skull that I'm not talking about this in terms of truth but only in terms of the ways ideas perpetuate themselves through the generations? Don't use me to try to make a point about a true faith--if you're a rabid protestant based christian, you've got just as many holes in your dogma. Back the hell off, Tex.

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

That's a good question. My take on it is that the aspects of God act independently of eachother while still being one whole. Father, son, and ghost are just names we've given to the aspects. Thus the aspect of Jesus on Earth can have a chat with the Father aspect up in Heaven. The whole point of calling it a Trinity is to have three things that do stuff, but are still one thing. It's just a guess. I haven't spent great deal of time contemplating it.

Well considering that the tradition prohibited any veneration of an idol or the providing of worship of any sort to any but the one God, there's a legitimate argument about the amount of veneration that Mary receives in the Catholic Church. It's part of the reason for the breakaway sects that became the large Protestant faiths of today.

:idea: The Truth

Yes, you have it right! Listen to their doublethink about this:
"We don't worship Mary, we just pray to her!"Don't you listen? They pray THROUGH her. She is an intercessor.

Just like mormons pray to God through Christ. Some protestants do that too I suppose.

Since I can't find his thread, I'm going to reply to Texastambul through you Raysia.

Think about it this way. Say you call a huge multinational corporation and you want to speak to the CEO. He's a busy man, so he can't talk to you right now. But you happen to know his personal secretary. So you call her, since she's much more accessible, and you ask her to relay your message to the CEO. That way, you're more likely to get his ear. It's like that. You're not really praying to Mary, you're praying to God through her, asking her to relay your prayer to God.

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

That's a good question. My take on it is that the aspects of God act independently of eachother while still being one whole. Father, son, and ghost are just names we've given to the aspects. Thus the aspect of Jesus on Earth can have a chat with the Father aspect up in Heaven. The whole point of calling it a Trinity is to have three things that do stuff, but are still one thing. It's just a guess. I haven't spent great deal of time contemplating it.Well, the catholics do seem pretty stuck on the concept post-nicean... But I really do not understand it.

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son? And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?

And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...

It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.

Sojo: Good example.

FYI, here's how the analogy works in Mormonism: We pray through Christ, our Elder Brother, to speak to God, our eternal father. Just as a child goes through his older brother to request a hard thing from his father. (at least in olden society)

Don't you listen? They pray THROUGH her. She is an intercessor.
Absolutly, thus setting up a false mediater when God clearly says none is needed... by pretending that Mary is the way to God and not Christ's Blood they are spitting in the face of God by saying that his sacrafice was incomplete!!


Just like mormons pray to God through Christ.

Again, this is unnecessary since Christ is God!

Placing "steps" between man and God is nothing more than Idolity...

If you are asking a Priest to forgive you or Mary to pray for you then you are ignoring God's sacrifice -- one must only ask for forgivness from God too find it!

Again, this is unnecessary since Christ is God!

But Christ is also quite seperate from God - he is the Son of God. the whole basis of the Trinity.

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.


I think that God is really good at PR. Think about it...if Jesus is born to a mother posessed of Original Sin, God is fully capable of cleansing him, just like that. But it gives his detractors ammunition to work with. Even if it isn't true, they can deny his divinity with the claim.

Thus, the cleansing of Mary. It covers all the bases - not only was Jesus was born in a state of complete grace, fully human and yet fully divine and born without sin, but there is no room to deny his total divinity based on Original Sin and the heredity thereof.


By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.

I don't see that as being all that illogical. But then, I've learned not to put anything past God, so...

:D Aiera

What is this all about, regarding the assumption of Mary?

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

You've got to admit, however, that this explanation leaves you with a logical problem--if Mary was without original sin, then that meant her parents were without sin, etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve--and yet the Bible teaches that they were the committers of original sin, thereby passing it down to their children and thence onto us. Thus we have a logical quandary--unless one were to argue that God stepped in and cleansed Mary of all sin before inserting his son into her--but that doesn't get you past the whole "being born with it" problem.


I think that God is really good at PR. Think about it...if Jesus is born to a mother posessed of Original Sin, God is fully capable of cleansing him, just like that. But it gives his detractors ammunition to work with. Even if it isn't true, they can deny his divinity with the claim.

Thus, the cleansing of Mary. It covers all the bases - not only was Jesus was born in a state of complete grace, fully human and yet fully divine and born without sin, but there is no room to deny his total divinity based on Original Sin and the heredity thereof.


By the way--I'm not dissing your belief here. I find religious belief of all flavors fascinating because usually they involve some leap of faith that makes no logical sense whatever and yet that doesn't seem to deter us as a species--we just hop on and go for the ride.

I don't see that as being all that illogical. But then, I've learned not to put anything past God, so...

:D Aiera

What is this all about, regarding the assumption of Mary?

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

What is this all about, regarding the assumption of Mary?

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

It is one of those B.S. rules the Church came up with.

DP

What is this all about, regarding the assumption of Mary?

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

It is one of those B.S. rules the Church came up with.

A lot of Canon Law is filled with this stuff. I had to read a lot of Tredentine decrees for a Church History module, and most of them are puncuated with "let him be anathema"

What is this all about, regarding the assumption of Mary?

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

It is one of those B.S. rules the Church came up with.

A lot of Canon Law is filled with this stuff. I had to read a lot of Tredentine decrees for a Church History module, and most of them are puncuated with "let him be anathema"

I'm sorry you had to read that stuff, Leveller. Of course, I like to read anthropological treatises, so maybe I wouldn't find it so terrible.

Would you like to discuss any of the other silly Church teachings/laws?

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

That's a good question. My take on it is that the aspects of God act independently of eachother while still being one whole. Father, son, and ghost are just names we've given to the aspects. Thus the aspect of Jesus on Earth can have a chat with the Father aspect up in Heaven. The whole point of calling it a Trinity is to have three things that do stuff, but are still one thing. It's just a guess. I haven't spent great deal of time contemplating it.Well, the catholics do seem pretty stuck on the concept post-nicean... But I really do not understand it.

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son? And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?

And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...

It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.bump!

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

That's a good question. My take on it is that the aspects of God act independently of eachother while still being one whole. Father, son, and ghost are just names we've given to the aspects. Thus the aspect of Jesus on Earth can have a chat with the Father aspect up in Heaven. The whole point of calling it a Trinity is to have three things that do stuff, but are still one thing. It's just a guess. I haven't spent great deal of time contemplating it.Well, the catholics do seem pretty stuck on the concept post-nicean... But I really do not understand it.

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son? And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?

And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...

It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.bump!

Has noone ever explained the whole trinity thing to you?

I think there is a less sinister explanation for the cult of Mary. The figure of Mary, mother of God resonated with many people in the Middle Ages for a variety of reasons. Maybe because they were used to a mother goddess, maybe because people like moms. Maybe for the same reason that a lot of people prefer confiding in women to confiding in men. The Church found itself forced to deal with the popularity of Mary and so she was given a larger role in the offical church but it tended to be a popular uprising, not something thought up the Pope to convert people.

The Trinity is confusing and here we have the split between the Eastern and the Catholic Church. Catholics puts Christ and the Holy Spirit under the Father and the Eastern Church puts the Holy Spirit under both Christ and the Father. I've forgotten what Chalcedon is about..is that also the nature of the trinity? I always liked St. Patrick's alleged analogy to a three leafed clover. The whole is one God but from another point of view there are three seperate leaves with different functions and personalities. But as the church used to like to say, it's a mystery.
And religion should be mysterious to some extent. This is god we are talking about after all.

What is this all about, regarding the assumption of Mary?

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

"And if any monk speak jocular words, such as provoke laughter, let him be anathema." -- Ordinance, 4th Council of Constance

Yeah, it's true. The Church has its doctrine, and it doesn't like people wavering from it. A lot of it is silly, but fortunately, it lacks the canon of the Bibles, and so is subject to constant (albeit slow) re-evaluation.

This is just one way that Catholics are not...say...Baptists, I guess.

:? Aiera

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?

That's a good question. My take on it is that the aspects of God act independently of eachother while still being one whole. Father, son, and ghost are just names we've given to the aspects. Thus the aspect of Jesus on Earth can have a chat with the Father aspect up in Heaven. The whole point of calling it a Trinity is to have three things that do stuff, but are still one thing. It's just a guess. I haven't spent great deal of time contemplating it.Well, the catholics do seem pretty stuck on the concept post-nicean... But I really do not understand it.

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son? And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?

And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...

It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.bump!

Has noone ever explained the whole trinity thing to you?nope. could you please answer my questions? I'd be very grateful

nope. could you please answer my questions? I'd be very grateful

Best way is the Irish way, the St. Patrick way. Get a picture of a clover leaf.

A typical clover has three "petals" per leaf. It is one leaf, but there are three distinct "petals" to it. So too with the Trinity. Three distinct entities, but one being overall.

:D Aiera

nope. could you please answer my questions? I'd be very grateful

Best way is the Irish way, the St. Patrick way. Get a picture of a clover leaf.

A typical clover has three "petals" per leaf. It is one leaf, but there are three distinct "petals" to it. So too with the Trinity. Three distinct entities, but one being overall.

:D AieraYeah, umm, I get that... how about my questions?

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son? And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?

And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...

It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.

Yeah, umm, I get that... how about my questions?

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son?


Because there was God the Father, who became incarnate in humanity in Jesus the Son. But the point of it is, Jesus was God incarnate...or, more accurately, enfleshed. God in human form, given all the powers of God yet fully human as well, subject to our weaknessed and frailties.


And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?


It is right and proper to pray to God the Father. ;) Jesus was acting in accordance with the Holy Law.


And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...


Okay, pretend that each petal of the clover has its own mouth...;)


It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.

Yet they are not. I believe it's right there in the Bible, in fact...


Then he said: "Praise be to the LORD , the God of Israel, who with his own hand has fulfilled what he promised with his own mouth to my father David. For he said


And also...


Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


Jesus is certainly God.

:D Aiera

Yeah, umm, I get that... how about my questions?

If they are the same person, then why use terms like father and son?


Because there was God the Father, who became incarnate in humanity in Jesus the Son. But the point of it is, Jesus was God incarnate...or, more accurately, enfleshed. God in human form, given all the powers of God yet fully human as well, subject to our weaknessed and frailties.Why would God choose to use the word "son" to title his mortal self?


And why would one aspect need to pray to the other?


It is right and proper to pray to God the Father. ;) Jesus was acting in accordance with the Holy Law.That's a good point, just like him having to be baptized, right?


And what about at Jesus' Baptism? Christ must be a heck of a Ventriloquist if he can be dunked underwater hwile a voice from the sky says this is his beloved son...


Okay, pretend that each petal of the clover has its own mouth...;)...Umm, yeah, I don't think God is Schizophrenic :P


It just makes more sense that they are 3 seperate beings, who are one in purpose.

Yet they are not. I believe it's right there in the Bible, in fact...


Then he said: "Praise be to the LORD , the God of Israel, who with his own hand has fulfilled what he promised with his own mouth to my father David. For he said


And also...


Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


Jesus is certainly God.

:D AieraChrist is called God on this Earth. He is the God and Father of this physical Earth. God the Father is our spiritual father, and our eternal father.

Christ is called God on this Earth. He is the God and Father of this physical Earth. God the Father is our spiritual father, and our eternal father.

There is but one God, Raysia. If you're Christian, you accept that. It's what monotheism means.

;) Aiera

Christ is called God on this Earth. He is the God and Father of this physical Earth. God the Father is our spiritual father, and our eternal father.

There is but one God, Raysia. If you're Christian, you accept that. It's what monotheism means.

;) AieraI'm Mormon :)

Why should not be allowed to call ourselves Christian because of the Nicean Creed? The Nicean creed is not the word of God... yet you use it like it's another book in the new testament.

We believe Christ is our Lord, Savior, Intercessor, and Elder Brother.

I'm Mormon :)

Why should not be allowed to call ourselves Christian because of the Nicean Creed? The Nicean creed is not the word of God... yet you use it like it's another book in the new testament.

We believe Christ is our Lord, Savior, Intercessor, and Elder Brother.

Mormons are polytheist
Christians are monotheist

One cannot be both.

I'm Mormon :)

Why should not be allowed to call ourselves Christian because of the Nicean Creed? The Nicean creed is not the word of God... yet you use it like it's another book in the new testament.

We believe Christ is our Lord, Savior, Intercessor, and Elder Brother.

Mormons are polytheist
Christians are monotheist

One cannot be both.lol The only thing that says Christians must be Monotheistic is the Nicean Creed.

lol The only thing that says Christians must be Monotheistic is the Nicean Creed.

Obviously you've never heard of the First Command...

This is refreshing in a way--watching different sects of Christianity fight it out amongst themselves for supremacy for a change instead of ganging up on us heathens, pagans, agnostics, atheists, Satan worshipers and other unaffiliated types.

This is refreshing in a way--watching different sects of Christianity fight it out amongst themselves for supremacy for a change instead of ganging up on us heathens, pagans, agnostics, atheists, Satan worshipers and other unaffiliated types.

Ah, but those types aren't in denial about who they are... Mormons and Catholics masquerade as Christians while worshiping idols, false prophets, mammon, and other heresies!

This is refreshing in a way--watching different sects of Christianity fight it out amongst themselves for supremacy for a change instead of ganging up on us heathens, pagans, agnostics, atheists, Satan worshipers and other unaffiliated types.

Ah, but those types aren't in denial about who they are... Mormons and Catholics masquerade as Christians while worshiping idols, false prophets, mammon, and other heresies!Uh huh. And I suppose you've got the inside track on ultimate religious truth, right?

*backs away slowly*

Uh huh. And I suppose you've got the inside track on ultimate religious truth, right?

*backs away slowly*

You misunderstand me (my own fault, I'm sure)

I am merely pointing out that Mormons are polytheist as they do not accept the Trinity and that Catholics are idolitrist as they believe that only a priest can forgive their sins -- these ideas are counter to words of Jesus Christ.

If one does not believe in Jesus Christ then that is their own perogative, however, when one teaches a doctrine counter to that of Jesus in His name that is a heresy!

lol The only thing that says Christians must be Monotheistic is the Nicean Creed.

Well, blow me over and call me Catholic!

I suppose this is the point where you'll quote me a line from the Bible in which Jesus worships anything other than God.

;) Aiera

You misunderstand me (my own fault, I'm sure)


Sadly, I think you misunderstand.


...and that Catholics are idolitrist as they believe that only a priest can forgive their sins -- these ideas are counter to words of Jesus Christ.


Er, no, they are not. Here's two things I can offer regarding that. Three things, sorry.

One, stop reading Jack Chick, you'll go blind.

Two, this is not idolatry you describe. That would be the Hail Mary. And that would also not be idolatry, but it's usually what fundies point to when they want to make the claim.

Three, read John 20.


19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


Here, Jesus grants his apostles, human beings, authority to forgive sins. The apostles passed this blessing and mandate on to their students and disciples, and on to what eventually became the Catholic clergy. Following in the tradition of the blessing to the apostles, obeying the mandate given by Jesus himself, priests are empowered to hear confessions and grant absolution.


If one does not believe in Jesus Christ then that is their own perogative, however, when one teaches a doctrine counter to that of Jesus in His name that is a heresy!

The power to forgive sins comes from Jesus Christ, and is given as a gift and a mandate to those who follow in succession to the line of the apostles, stemming from St. Peter who was, in fact, the first Pope. That would include the Catholic clergy.

:D Aiera

You know... I have not posted in this entier thread.. Just watched from the sidelines.. and When im finished saying my bit, I probably wont post again here... But, as a Catholic.. watching all the other sacts go out it.. I have to say this...

So far I have heared these things:
Everyone else who is not part of 'The One True Way' is going to Hell
Only the (fill in the blank) Faith is the One True Way...
Because you are not a part of (fill in the Blank) you are all going to Hell

Conclusion
We are ALL going to Hell

Unless of course The Holy High MuckyMuck ( you know, GOD) actually allows for multpy Faiths and cares more about what you do With YOUR life then who you try to 'Save' by arguing mindlessly.

Thank you and that is all.

You guys are going to have to ignore Texas.

He's a confused conspiracy nut that came from a Bizzarro dimension in which Spain was Protestant.

He's currently part of the Bizzarro-Spainish Inquisition.

He's got paranoid schizophrenia, and could explode at any minute due to the several sticks of TNT firmly lodged up his rear and lit.

This is why smoke seems to always be beillowing from his backside.

It's not contagious, don't worry.

Just ignore him and he'll blow up.

lol The only thing that says Christians must be Monotheistic is the Nicean Creed.

Well, blow me over and call me Catholic!

I suppose this is the point where you'll quote me a line from the Bible in which Jesus worships anything other than God.

;) AieraUmm

Jesus=God
God the Father=God

That's two Gods. You can't be monotheistic and worship two gods, even if they are one in purpose.

Your explanation is just screwey and full of holes... how can they possibly be the same person?

Think of God as an Alien Intelligence.

Christ was a fragment of that Intelligence sent to Earth.

When Christ was summoned back to Heaven, the Fragment rejoined with the Intelligence.

lol The only thing that says Christians must be Monotheistic is the Nicean Creed.

Well, blow me over and call me Catholic!

I suppose this is the point where you'll quote me a line from the Bible in which Jesus worships anything other than God.

;) AieraUmm

Jesus=God
God the Father=God

That's two Gods. You can't be monotheistic and worship two gods, even if they are one in purpose.

Your explanation is just screwey and full of holes... how can they possibly be the same person?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#II

lol The only thing that says Christians must be Monotheistic is the Nicean Creed.

Well, blow me over and call me Catholic!

I suppose this is the point where you'll quote me a line from the Bible in which Jesus worships anything other than God.

;) AieraUmm

Jesus=God
God the Father=God

That's two Gods. You can't be monotheistic and worship two gods, even if they are one in purpose.

Your explanation is just screwey and full of holes... how can they possibly be the same person?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#IIThat site is full of problems. Namely, Christ is "god" In most of the old Testament.

If Jesus is God, then why does the bible say that he's God's right hand man? It says he is as God on Earth, not that IS, but that was the old way of saying Jesus is LIKE God, except on Earth, not in heaven.

If Jesus is God, then why does the bible say that he's God's right hand man? It says he is as God on Earth, not that IS, but that was the old way of saying Jesus is LIKE God, except on Earth, not in heaven.heh

Probably something like "We believe he IS the right hand of God" :P

No, it says, "Christ our saviour resides in heaven on the right hand of our Holy Father until the day of Judgement arrives and he shall vanquish...."

Something like that, goes on to say how he'll kill the antichrist and Michael the Archangel will kill the beast from the bottomless pits of hell.

Because God cannot be defined without the Son. God is triune, one in essence.

This is refreshing in a way--watching different sects of Christianity fight it out amongst themselves for supremacy for a change instead of ganging up on us heathens, pagans, agnostics, atheists, Satan worshipers and other unaffiliated types.

Ah, but those types aren't in denial about who they are... Mormons and Catholics masquerade as Christians while worshiping idols, false prophets, mammon, and other heresies!

I don't pretend to know about the Mormon faith, but what ARE you smoking?

Catholics do not worship idols.
What false prophets are in the Old and New Testaments?
Mammon? What is that?
What other heresies?

As an Irish Catholic, I find that charge pf heresy very insulting. We do not worship idols, and we do not believe only priests can forgive our sins. They are closer to God than others, as it is why they are the priest and I'm not, and it is much more assuring if you confess sins to the holiest man around you. We pray to God, Christ, and Mary in repetance, not a priest! And what false prophet? If you mean a Saint, then your an idiot, if you mean Mary, your an idiot. Saints are men and women who have done Holy deeds and are recognised for those deeds by the church, and they are honoured for them. And what the hell is mammon?

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?They are three personas linked by one spirit. If you've studied Roman Mythology, think of a triad. God needed to go to Earth to save man, so God the Holy Spirit inpregnated the Blessed Virgin with God the Son, the son of God the Father. When God the Son left Earth, God the Holy Spirit remained.

I'm confused about the Catholic Trinity:

You believe that God is person, with 3 aspects, right? The father, son, and the holy Ghost?

I really am confused as to how that works... how can there be a father, and a son, but still be the same person? How can there be a father and son talking to each other, but be the same person? How can the son pray to the father, if they are the same person?

I don't buy this one-in-being thing... can you explain it?They are three personas linked by one spirit. If you've studied Roman Mythology, think of a triad. God needed to go to Earth to save man, so God the Holy Spirit inpregnated the Blessed Virgin with God the Son, the son of God the Father. When God the Son left Earth, God the Holy Spirit remained.So... you believe God and Jesus are in fact two seperate beings.

The catholic faith says otherwise, for some reason.

Christianity isn't exactly a Faith built on Angels and Prophets, much like Judiasm and Islam are.

Then again, many sects of Judiasm and Islam see Jesus as a Prophet.

Oooh how the world turns.