NationStates Jolt Archive

In this board, it seems like everything we do, say, and act is wrong, illegal, barbaric, or immoral. Why? Because we're American. If I say something Pro-Canadian, I'd get 6 people backing me up.

Now, if I said something Pro-American, I'd get 6 people saying something that degrades what I had said.

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too scarred to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.

So that's my little drabble. I do not care what you say, because it's most likely something that'll degrade what I've said.

Oh yeah. Peer pressure in NS style. Since we're outnumbered, many pr0-americans are going to the dark side, so they won't be attacked frequently for their nation's actions.

Yay for you. I stand tall with my nation's actions. But I hate the friggin President. When I'm 18, I'm voting Edwards, McCain, or someone else that's worthy!

Gak... how can you say we have lax gun control laws when our oppressive, bloated government still makes it a point to remove them from the hands of everyone except the criminals who get them illegally?

I find it especially odd how you claim they can be jealous when most of them havent lived in US luxury in the first place. We are opulent and selfish. Go screw yourselves if you think we have to service every nation that comes asking for help. We do so every now and then, a lot more than many other nations would, but right now we are under a little bit of stress you know.

its because of bush. that can be my only answer. being american myself i also see all this crap going down and i can only assume that it is bush and his foreign policy's fault because we didnt ahve this much anti-american sentiment under clinton, dispite his whole monica scandle.

In this board, it seems like everything we do, say, and act is wrong, illegal, barbaric, or immoral. Why? Because we're American. If I say something Pro-Canadian, I'd get 6 people backing me up.

Now, if I said something Pro-American, I'd get 6 people saying something that degrades what I had said.

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too jelous to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.

So that's my little drabble. I do not care what you say, because it's most likely something that'll degrade what I've said.

Yup...I'm too jelous to come over there and tell you what I think.

its because of bush. that can be my only answer. being american myself i also see all this crap going down and i can only assume that it is bush and his foreign policy's fault because we didnt ahve this much anti-american sentiment under clinton, dispite his whole monica scandle.

agreed. Bush is making a fool out of our nation.

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.

sadly enough, even though all of the anti american sentament is due to bush, he is still the only candidate that could run our country for 4 years. so bush wll win again, money will contenue to be wasted, and the anti-american sentiment will grow. thus is my prediction.

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.

Dangerous how? Colodia has a right to support whom he wishes, and to vote against whom he wishes.

Then again, free thought and free choice is always dangerous...

I am an American and proud to be so. If people want to bash me that is their business. Just remember the first place they will turn, to ask for help, when their country is attacked. May we always have a president, like George W. Bush, who is not afraid to take the needed action at the needed time instead of some pansy who would wait around while more of your people suffer.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries is to re-elect George W. Bush in '04. Maybe we can even get Jeb in '08 and '12

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.

I got a more dangerous quote for you ( you had to know it was coming when you typed htis raysia). "Ladies and gentlemen, your new president, George W. Bush"

seriously, i think it speaks scores about US democracy when the attitude of many (wrote most, didn't want to do that) voters is settling for the lesser of, in their eyes, 2 evils

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.

I got a more dangerous quote for you ( you had to know it was coming when you typed htis raysia). "Ladies and gentlemen, your new president, George W. Bush"

seriously, i think it speaks scores about US democracy when the attitude of many (wrote most, didn't want to do that) voters is settling for the lesser of, in their eyes, 2 evilsI really don't see why.

I would much rather have a great man like Bush in office than a pothead waffler like John Kerry.

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.

Argh...fine lemme try again

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH IN '04, BUT BE REASONABLE!

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.

Argh...fine lemme try again

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH IN '04, BUT BE REASONABLE!...kerry is reasonable?

I am an American and proud to be so. If people want to bash me that is their business. Just remember the first place they will turn, to ask for help, when their country is attacked. May we always have a president, like George W. Bush, who is not afraid to take the needed action at the needed time instead of some pansy who would wait around while more of your people suffer.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries is to re-elect George W. Bush in '04. Maybe we can even get Jeb in '08 and '12

You mean like in Haiti?

if you vote anyone other than bush, you are throwing your vote away....why doenst anyone realize that he hasnt done a bad job....im telling you as ive told you a thousand times....america haters will hate america no matter who is in office, and it is always going to be like that....none of the foriegn policy can be blamed on bush, and his economic policies helped us recover from the horrid results of the clinton admin.....not to mention his personal life in the white house wouldnt sell a book (which is a good thing as far as im concerned)

I really don't see why.

I would much rather have a great man like Bush in office than a pothead waffler like John Kerry.

As far as I'm concerned, they are both wafflers. Since, well, they are.

And when it comes down to being a pothead, most people have been one at some point or another in their lives. (I know, you never have been, but most people try it at least once.) It really doesn't mean anything to me more than say, a guy who enjoys a drink now and then.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries isto re-elect George W. Bush

How, by demeaning the spanish during their tragedy by accusing them of appeasment?
By privatizing Iraq and thereby ensuring that democracy well not happen?(check out bill 38 through 40)
By actively encouraging a coup against the democratically elected Chavez?

By not breaking off the supporting of deathsquads in Columbia under the guise of the war on drugs?

I am an American and proud to be so. If people want to bash me that is their business. Just remember the first place they will turn, to ask for help, when their country is attacked. May we always have a president, like George W. Bush, who is not afraid to take the needed action at the needed time instead of some pansy who would wait around while more of your people suffer.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries is to re-elect George W. Bush in '04. Maybe we can even get Jeb in '08 and '12

Listen. I'm glad Bush decided to take action and everything. But things went downhill once he messed with Iraq.

I'm sure as heck not saying that he shouldn't have invaded! I'm saying that he should've gotten the credible and unfaulty intelligence before such an invasion. However, such intelligence may have taken YEARS to acquire.

Bah...maybe Bush was right after all? Everyone thought Lincoln was a moron in the 1860's, and look at him now!

Time will tell...just not right now

Now I must look at all the other negative posts I must attend to

hail jay w....theres someone with brains.

It IS possible to be critical of the current US adminstration's foreign policy WITHOUT being an "American-hater".

It is possible for US citizens to be critical of their own administration, without being unpatriotic.

Its called democracy.

Respect for the opinions of others is important, whether it be on internal matters, or in the international field.

And now that I'm bored...here's a couple Pro-American images

http://www.onlineathens.com/images/040403/bush.jpg

http://www.dowfinancial.com/images/flag.jpg

And now that I'm bored...here's a couple Pro-American images

http://www.onlineathens.com/images/040403/bush.jpg

http://www.dowfinancial.com/images/flag.jpg
It's kidna creepy that a "pro american" picture is a bunch of killers standing and clapping for Bush (i didn't use murderers, i'm basing this on the laws of average. I'm willing to bet a sizeable amount of the people wearing green in that picture have killed some people along the way)

And now that I'm bored...here's a couple Pro-American images

-image[/img]

image
It's kidna creepy that a "pro american" picture is a bunch of killers standing and clapping for Bush (i didn't use murderers, i'm basing this on the laws of average. I'm willing to bet a sizeable amount of the people wearing green in that picture have killed some people along the way)

Well get used to it. Almost every nation has these "killers."

Except our "killers" fight for their nation.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139248

That is why I made this, my friends. Nothing but flamming in there, and apparently they don't understand what sarcasm is.

VOTE ANYONE BUT BUSH FOR '04!That has to be the most dangerous slogan I have ever heard. I seriously hope you don't mean that. And if you do, I seriously hope you are not registered to vote.


It's not really all that dangerous - there's only one alternative, and he's pretty mainstream. It's not as if the National Socialist Party of America has a dangerous lead or anything.

Ah, but wouldn't it be wonderful if this could eventually lead to a multiple party system? *dreams*

2004 - "Kerry will do."

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139248

That is why I made this, my friends. Nothing but flamming in there, and apparently they don't understand what sarcasm is.

sarscam...it's sarscam

ahh well...

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries isto re-elect George W. Bush

How, by demeaning the spanish during their tragedy by accusing them of appeasment?
By privatizing Iraq and thereby ensuring that democracy well not happen?(check out bill 38 through 40)
By actively encouraging a coup against the democratically elected Chavez?

By not breaking off the supporting of deathsquads in Columbia under the guise of the war on drugs?By running the most powerful country in the world better than anyone has done in the past 11 years.

And now that I'm bored...here's a couple Pro-American images

-image[/img]

image
It's kidna creepy that a "pro american" picture is a bunch of killers standing and clapping for Bush (i didn't use murderers, i'm basing this on the laws of average. I'm willing to bet a sizeable amount of the people wearing green in that picture have killed some people along the way)

Well get used to it. Almost every nation has these "killers."

Except our "killers" fight for their nation.

My point was more that i would have hoped you pick a firefighter, or the statue of liberty, or an eagle. Why use pictures of what through experience latin america, asia and the middle east fears/hates, etc..?

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139248

That is why I made this, my friends. Nothing but flamming in there, and apparently they don't understand what sarcasm is.

sarscam...it's sarscam

ahh well...Well, some of the things I said were, but not the whole thing. Apparently, it is the sarcasm that made me sound stupid, but it's not like I PLANNED that or anything...

And now that I'm bored...here's a couple Pro-American images

-image[/img]

image
It's kidna creepy that a "pro american" picture is a bunch of killers standing and clapping for Bush (i didn't use murderers, i'm basing this on the laws of average. I'm willing to bet a sizeable amount of the people wearing green in that picture have killed some people along the way)

Well get used to it. Almost every nation has these "killers."

Except our "killers" fight for their nation.

My point was more that i would have hoped you pick a firefighter, or the statue of liberty, or an eagle. Why use pictures of what through experience latin america, asia and the middle east fears/hates, etc..?

because I didn't wanna get killed by mods for not putting warnings of massive picture numbers since there's so many Pro-American images

Technical thing, not a moral thing

By running the most powerful country in the world better than anyone has done in the past 11 years. With most states near bankruptsy, two occupations, an semi-hostile international feel to the US (which is a total change around from the friendliness that came after the attacks on the towers), spiraling deficit, record trade imbalance, underfunded education plan which Bush himself proposed... how the hell is he running the US better than anyone in the past 11 years? Explain to me this.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries isto re-elect George W. Bush

How, by demeaning the spanish during their tragedy by accusing them of appeasment?
By privatizing Iraq and thereby ensuring that democracy well not happen?(check out bill 38 through 40)
By actively encouraging a coup against the democratically elected Chavez?

By not breaking off the supporting of deathsquads in Columbia under the guise of the war on drugs?By running the most powerful country in the world better than anyone has done in the past 11 years.

Running us into the ground, that is.

See, I can use catchy one-liners, too. :wink:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139248

That is why I made this, my friends. Nothing but flamming in there, and apparently they don't understand what sarcasm is.

sarscam...it's sarscam

ahh well...Well, some of the things I said were, but not the whole thing. Apparently, it is the sarcasm that made me sound stupid, but it's not like I PLANNED that or anything...

you new to NS General?

Trust me, people are going to be getting the wrong idea from almost any post you'd make.

It IS possible to be critical of the current US adminstration's foreign policy WITHOUT being an "American-hater".

It is possible for US citizens to be critical of their own administration, without being unpatriotic.

Its called democracy.

Respect for the opinions of others is important, whether it be on internal matters, or in the international field.

Good point. We are not 'American haters' and I am sure as hell not 'jealous' of the US. Maybe the meida outside of the US is a bit less 'pro-USA all the way' so we have different perspectives.

Also, you just seem to insult each other and get emotional when you talk about politics, what we'd call 'mud slinging', not exactly productive. What about policies and facts? Try watching an Australian election campaign (we are having one this year) and you'll see what I mean.

The US is not some great saviour nation we all run to whenever we get into trouble. We handeld East Timor without US help so don't go making claims like that, it is just offensive. Allot of Americans seem to think the world owes you something, why is that? And don't start going on about how you 'helped' everyone, we 'helped' the Solomon Islands lately and I don't think they owe me anything at all, it was in our interesets after all (which is why any government dose anything in the first place).

Another thing, patriotism proves nothing, everyone loves their homeland. Putting up a some pictures is just going to piss some people off.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries isto re-elect George W. Bush

How, by demeaning the spanish during their tragedy by accusing them of appeasment?
By privatizing Iraq and thereby ensuring that democracy well not happen?(check out bill 38 through 40)
By actively encouraging a coup against the democratically elected Chavez?

By not breaking off the supporting of deathsquads in Columbia under the guise of the war on drugs?By running the most powerful country in the world better than anyone has done in the past 11 years.

Running us into the ground, that is.

See, I can make quippy one liners, too. :wink:

actually, you used 2 lines ;)

Once again, i ask people to read about what's actually being imposed on Iraq, it sure as hell ain't democracy.

The absolute best thing America could possibly do, to insure the ability of America to come to the aid of these countries isto re-elect George W. Bush

How, by demeaning the spanish during their tragedy by accusing them of appeasment?
By privatizing Iraq and thereby ensuring that democracy well not happen?(check out bill 38 through 40)
By actively encouraging a coup against the democratically elected Chavez?

By not breaking off the supporting of deathsquads in Columbia under the guise of the war on drugs?By running the most powerful country in the world better than anyone has done in the past 11 years.

Running us into the ground, that is.

See, I can make quippy one liners, too. :wink:

actually, you used 2 lines ;)

Once again, i ask people to read about what's actually being imposed on Iraq, it sure as hell ain't democracy.

Democracy doesn't come overnight

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139248

That is why I made this, my friends. Nothing but flamming in there, and apparently they don't understand what sarcasm is.

sarscam...it's sarscam

ahh well...Well, some of the things I said were, but not the whole thing. Apparently, it is the sarcasm that made me sound stupid, but it's not like I PLANNED that or anything...

you new to NS General?

Trust me, people are going to be getting the wrong idea from almost any post you'd make.Well if that is true, than I hope you realize I just used sarcasm again...

AAAND now...I must be going...for I'll be in big hell if I do not get my project completed before Friday

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139248

That is why I made this, my friends. Nothing but flamming in there, and apparently they don't understand what sarcasm is.

sarscam...it's sarscam

ahh well...Well, some of the things I said were, but not the whole thing. Apparently, it is the sarcasm that made me sound stupid, but it's not like I PLANNED that or anything...

you new to NS General?

Trust me, people are going to be getting the wrong idea from almost any post you'd make.Well if that is true, than I hope you realize I just used sarcasm again...

:shock: *shakes hand* Good luck to you

*flies away*

Democracy doesn't come overnight And oftentimes not at all.

Democracy doesn't come overnight

Colodia, i challenge you to actually look at the laws and contracts being made by Bremer. Not the ideal being spouted by beaurocrats. Read some of the economic bills that are being enforced on this country. See what they will do for sovereignty.

edit:actually, i'll make it easy
summary of the economic policies pursued in Iraq and what sort of results we'll see
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1548/1_19/112212901/p1/article.jhtml?term=

America should not be hated its terrorists and lack of freedom its rogue nations. Dictators etc.

America is a great country I am proud of and love dearly. I find issues with the country but I still love it. Yes gun controls are restricting and should not be. Taxes are to high. And so on. Still the best and we are not an empire we are not imperical we just want to live in peace and be free if we have to kick ass to do so we will. We also engage in foreign aid a good deal like iraq and financially

America should not be hated its terrorists and lack of freedom its rogue nations. Dictators etc.

America is a great country I am proud of and love dearly. I find issues with the country but I still love it. Yes gun controls are restricting and should not be. Taxes are to high. And so on. Still the best and we are not an empire we are not imperical we just want to live in peace and be free if we have to kick ass to do so we will. We also engage in foreign aid a good deal like iraq and financially... I did'nt understand a thing you just said...

yeah, a fire fighter puts out a fire...whoopie....that is honorable, but really not pro america. pro america is bush, with the soldiers clapping. pro america is the flag. its the fourth of july and baseball games. it is saying football and meaning FOOTBALL, and not soccer. pro america is saying hey i dont agree with the government, and it being ok. thats pro america.

Running us into the ground, that is.

See, I can make quippy one liners, too. :wink:

actually, you used 2 lines ;)


I used two lines to make a point. The second sentence I used doesn't count, as it is not actually a part of the one-line answer.

Yeah, I know it doesn't matter. Meh.

In this board, it seems like everything we do, say, and act is wrong, illegal, barbaric, or immoral. Why? Because we're American. If I say something Pro-Canadian, I'd get 6 people backing me up.

Now, if I said something Pro-American, I'd get 6 people saying something that degrades what I had said.

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too scarred to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.

So that's my little drabble. I do not care what you say, because it's most likely something that'll degrade what I've said.

Dissing America is fashionable. It's the In Thing this month. Made easier by the awful bloody mess that Iraq seems to be turning into, and a presidential team that's going to fill the joke books of satirists and comedians for years.

Don't take it too personally. Remember that most of these people have selective amnesia anyway. Give it a few months and the sheeple will have found something else to do. Just remember: smile and nod, smile and nod...

--
Moonshine
CrystalDragon on Espernet IRC
Do not anger the dragon, for you go well with mint sauce

proud to belong to the greatest nation in the world, USA.

yeah, a fire fighter puts out a fire...whoopie....that is honorable, but really not pro america. pro america is bush, with the soldiers clapping. pro america is the flag. its the fourth of july and baseball games. it is saying football and meaning FOOTBALL, and not soccer. pro america is saying hey i dont agree with the government, and it being ok. thats pro america. Um..so let me get this stright... Fpptball is pro American? Struting around with Fat guys who slam into each other ovver a pigskin is Pro American..so.. like if I like to play Soccer, and HATE Football am..what, A terroist or something?
THINK Man... THINK!

yeah, a fire fighter puts out a fire...whoopie....that is honorable, but really not pro america. pro america is bush, with the soldiers clapping. pro america is the flag. its the fourth of july and baseball games. it is saying football and meaning FOOTBALL, and not soccer. pro america is saying hey i dont agree with the government, and it being ok. thats pro america. Um..so let me get this stright... Fpptball is pro American? Struting around with Fat guys who slam into each other ovver a pigskin is Pro American..so.. like if I like to play Soccer, and HATE Football am..what, A terroist or something?
THINK Man... THINK!

CI, I think this is sarcasm again, actually.

God I hope so Anbar!

It is SO Hard to tell on these Forums!!!

yeah, a fire fighter puts out a fire...whoopie....that is honorable, but really not pro america. pro america is bush, with the soldiers clapping. pro america is the flag. its the fourth of july and baseball games. it is saying football and meaning FOOTBALL, and not soccer. pro america is saying hey i dont agree with the government, and it being ok. thats pro america.

Bloody yanks. FOOTBALL. YOU KICK IT. WITH YOUR FOOT. YOU DON'T PICK THE THING UP AND CHARGE TOWARDS THE OTHER TEAM'S SIDE LIKE SOME ARMOURED RETARD. WHY THE FECKING HELL DO YOU THINK IT WAS CALLED FOOTBALL? IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT, YOU TAKE UP RUGBY, DO IT WITHOUT NANCY-BOY BODY PADDING AND FIND OUT WHAT A REAL MAN'S GAME IS LIKE. AT LEAST WHEN THE WELSH DECIDED TO MAKE THEIR OWN SHIT UP THEY HAD THE DECENCY TO GIVE IT ITS OWN NAME! CHRIST ALIVE ON A STICK, HAVE YOU NO CONCEPT OF ENGLISH? FOOT. BALL. END OF STORY. I WIN. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO COUNTER-ARGUE ME BECAUSE I'LL JUST IGNORE YOU AND CARRY ON SHOUTING. BESIDES WHICH, YOU'RE ALL JUST WRONG.

This has been your caps-rant of the day, courtesy of me. Thankyou.

Blind-Acceptance of Authority isn't Patriotism

Dissent is Patriotic

Imperialism is unAmerican

Give me Liberty or give me Death isn't a compromise

In this board, it seems like everything we do, say, and act is wrong, illegal, barbaric, or immoral. Why? Because we're American. If I say something Pro-Canadian, I'd get 6 people backing me up.

Now, if I said something Pro-American, I'd get 6 people saying something that degrades what I had said.

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too scarred to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.

So that's my little drabble. I do not care what you say, because it's most likely something that'll degrade what I've said.

Dissing America is fashionable. It's the In Thing this month. Made easier by the awful bloody mess that Iraq seems to be turning into, and a presidential team that's going to fill the joke books of satirists and comedians for years.

Don't take it too personally. Remember that most of these people have selective amnesia anyway. Give it a few months and the sheeple will have found something else to do. Just remember: smile and nod, smile and nod...

--
Moonshine
CrystalDragon on Espernet IRC
Do not anger the dragon, for you go well with mint sauce

"
Dissing America is fashionable" - it obviously follows the fashion of some (note some!) Americans to treat the rest of the world with contempt - remember who stated that the UN was "irrelevant"? remember the farce of "freedom fries" ?

The US rightfully earned a lot of sympathy after 9/11 - and your administration promptly blew a lot of it.

"Don't take it too personally"... because it isn't.

"Remember that most of these people have selective amnesia anyway".... but the majority of them dislike being patronised, and do remember insults like that.

"Just remember: smile and nod, smile and nod..." and your reputation for arrogance will be enhanced.

Disagreeing with current US policy does not make you an "American-hater" or a "friend to terrorists" or "an apologist for Saddam" or "a hater of freedom"...all accusations I have seen made against those who disagree with the current administration.

I cannot speak for all, or even many, but I do know that a lot of my fellow Australians feel that we have been "suckered" into a war in Iraq on lies re weapons of mass destruction.

Yes, we are there, not in great numbers, but there in a good proportion relevant to our size. There again, beside the US in time of war, as we were in Vietnam, Korea, the Pacific.

Only this time, as I said, we feel mighty uneasy about it.

In conclusion, I think that many are too sensitive to criticism, and do take it personally. And being condesceding to your friends does not make you more friends.

The anti americanists are right. America is quickly becoming a haven of fear, xenophobia, dictatorship.

The leadership of President G W Bush is a very real part of this notion.
He has consistently terrorized the american public, if not that of the proverbial West to boot, with his carrying on about threats to our homeland. He has used this tack to create psycological links between saddam hussein, 9/1101 attacks, weapons of mass destruction, and terrorists. His overall leadership style is to scare the public and reassure them that he's the man to be at the helm; that we should be scared to death so he can be brave for us.

Meanwhile, he seeks laws(ie the PaTRIOT ACT) which curtail civil/political freedom under the guise of protected it. Also he hides and classifies important documents and hearings which seem that they should be public. And he supports Ashcroft's policy of illegal and indefinate detainment of suspected terrorist/ terrorist supporters ON US SOIL, yet without due process.

In short, those that dislike america have grave reasons for doing so. I hope that some day soon, like the next election day, the international community will be able to see a shining new america - one that is willing to listen and compromise; one that seeks a global and domestic commitment to democracy despite what danger lurks; and an america that works boldly and bravely to confront the nastiness of the world in an open and frank manner. Then can the battle for the hearts and minds of possible future terrorists be won and freedom reign. Falling short of these goals will mean darker and more dangerous days to come.

Respectfully Submitted,
Cubed1
Foreign Minister of the Democratic Republic of Boozehoundia

The anti americanists are right. America is quickly becoming a haven of fear, xenophobia, dictatorship......
I hope that some day soon, like the next election day, the international community will be able to see a shining new america - one that is willing to listen and compromise; one that seeks a global and domestic commitment to democracy despite what danger lurks; and an america that works boldly and bravely to confront the nastiness of the world in an open and frank manner. ....

Respectfully Submitted,
Cubed1
Foreign Minister of the Democratic Republic of Boozehoundia

Well written.
Dissent is part of democracy.
You have proved that there are still good Americans around.

Americans do not exist.

Americans do not exist.

Can you explain that? I'm serious, I want to know what you mean. Are you refering to the fact that North America and South America are continents, not countries?

I thinck Bush should apologise for firstly removing an anti-woman, anti-west, anti-human rights and anti-everything that isn't an extremeist muslim view point and secondly a mass murderer, user of WMDs on the Iranians and Kurds, dictator, anti-human rights and anti-west. What was Bush thinking?

I thinck Bush should apologise for firstly removing an anti-woman, anti-west, anti-human rights and anti-everything that isn't an extremeist muslim view point and secondly a mass murderer, user of WMDs on the Iranians and Kurds, dictator, anti-human rights and anti-west. What was Bush thinking?

Try reading the thread.

There are a number of issues addressed.

Just on your particular rant, though. Bush never attempted to "sell" the war as one for the removal of Saddam.

Why? Because he, and everyone else, knows that his dad could have done precisely that ten years previously. Instead, we had the tyrant kept around for 10 more years. Yeah, what was Bush thinking? Remember the first Gulf War? Or is that something you didn't learn about at school?

Then, we are told that the war is about weapons of mass destruction. Remember them? Perhaps you've forgotten them as not many have been sighted lately.

Remeber how the UN and world opinion didn't count?

No need for Bush to apologise. We wouldn't believe him anyway.

Can you explain that? I'm serious, I want to know what you mean. Are you refering to the fact that North America and South America are continents, not countries?No, you explain to me what an american is. Is it because you are born in America, or because you love guns, or because you have that citizen card, or whatever. You explain to me how do americans exist.
I'm human, I consider americans do not exist except in the mind of some religious zealots.

Can you explain that? I'm serious, I want to know what you mean. Are you refering to the fact that North America and South America are continents, not countries?No, you explain to me what an american is. Is it because you are born in America, or because you love guns, or because you have that citizen card, or whatever. You explain to me how do americans exist.
I'm human, I consider americans do not exist except in the mind of some religious zealots.

I think a usually accepted definition of "Americans" would be citizens of the United States of America.

And I don't really believe that you have to be a 'religious zealot" to accept that definition.

Or am I missing something here?

I think a usually accepted definition of "Americans" would be citizens of the United States of America.

And I don't really believe that you have to be a 'religious zealot" to accept that definition.

Or am I missing something here?Then there is no american hater as far as I know.
The problem lies with the americans who think they are somewhat different than the rest of the world. I think you have to be a religious zealot to think that holders of a citizen card are somewhat blessed or to wave a flag like a religious symbol or to call something you don't like unamerican or another thing american.

I'm so sick of the tendency that many people on this forum have of lumping huge, disparate groups of people together and levelling sweeping accusations at them.

Yes, there are anti-Americans, just as there are anti-semites, anti-Europeans, anti-this-that-and-the-others. However, by tarring too many people with the same brush you risk trivialising the very that prejudice that offends you.

I do not support the actions of the Israelis state BUT this doesn't make me anti-semitic.

I strongly object to the current structure of the EU BUT this doesn't make me anti-European.

I am agnostic BUT this doesn't make me immoral, amoral or against spiritual beliefs.

I object to patriotism taken to excess BUT this doesn't make me anti-nations.

I object to the actions of the Bush administration and the American misunderstanding of football (well said, Moonshine!) BUT this doesn't make me anti-American.

Christ, everyone is so judgemental.

Can you explain that? I'm serious, I want to know what you mean. Are you refering to the fact that North America and South America are continents, not countries?No, you explain to me what an american is. Is it because you are born in America, or because you love guns, or because you have that citizen card, or whatever. You explain to me how do americans exist.
I'm human, I consider americans do not exist except in the mind of some religious zealots.

Easy big fella, I was just asking a question. So you believe there is no such thing as nationalities? This is a serious question, not some rhetorical retort.

Easy big fella, I was just asking a question. So you believe there is no such thing as nationalities? This is a serious question, not some rhetorical retort.Exactly.
BTW was my tone rude? It was not intended to sound rude, I may have some communication problems. English is not my native language and in my language, sarcasm and rethoric is natural and in no way rude.

Easy big fella, I was just asking a question. So you believe there is no such thing as nationalities? This is a serious question, not some rhetorical retort.Exactly.
BTW was my tone rude? It was not intended to sound rude, I may have some communication problems. English is not my native language and in my language, sarcasm and rethoric is natural and in no way rude.

Okay, I get you now. Starting with a rhetorical question sometimes make people think you are having a go. Sacrasam is fine, it is just hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic or not in this forum. Continuing off topic, what is your native language and where are you from?

I don't hate America contary to popular belif but I do not like Bush your foregin policy or macdonalds. Thank you very much.

Vote for Kerry, or whoever else is standing, (except for people more tory/consrvitive/stupid/mad than Bush, if thats possable) just,

Don't Let The Chimp Back In

I don't hate America contary to popular belif but I do not like Bush your foregin policy or macdonalds. Thank you very much.

Vote for Kerry, or whoever else is standing, (except for people more tory/consrvitive/stupid/mad than Bush, if thats possable) just,

Don't Let The Chimp Back In

I thinck Bush should apologise for firstly removing an anti-woman, anti-west, anti-human rights and anti-everything that isn't an extremeist muslim view point and secondly a mass murderer, user of WMDs on the Iranians and Kurds, dictator, anti-human rights and anti-west. What was Bush thinking?

Try reading the thread.

There are a number of issues addressed.

Just on your particular rant, though. Bush never attempted to "sell" the war as one for the removal of Saddam.

Why? Because he, and everyone else, knows that his dad could have done precisely that ten years previously. Instead, we had the tyrant kept around for 10 more years. Yeah, what was Bush thinking? Remember the first Gulf War? Or is that something you didn't learn about at school?

Then, we are told that the war is about weapons of mass destruction. Remember them? Perhaps you've forgotten them as not many have been sighted lately.

Remeber how the UN and world opinion didn't count?
No need for Bush to apologise. We wouldn't believe him anyway.Firstly I don't care whether bush did or didn't sell the war about the removal of Saddam. The fact remains that millions of Iraqis now don't run the risk of ending up in mass graves becuase their religion is wrong orthey say something Saddam doen't like and this is a direct concequence of the war. Secondly the Gulf war wasn't about removing Saddam it never was, its soil reason was to liberate Kuwait abeit for what ever reason and the US and allies were treated as liberators.
Thirdly did all those Kurds and Iranians just drop dead of old age. No they were gassed with chemical weapons. Iraq is a big place and it only takes a small jar of a WMD to wipe out a city so it stands to reason that their is no point in dismissing WMDs.
Finally the UN, France and Germany are a joke. France and Germany had good trade links with pre-war Iraq and the war dammaged their economy that was the only reason they objected. France takes the moral high ground then shortly afterwards invites Mugabee to dinner. The UN was partially responsible for the genocide in Rwanda as they could of prevented it and didn't, rounding up Muslims so they could be murdered by Serb forces and it turns to the US and Britain to send peacekeepers when ever their is a problem.
You critizize Bush? Well if you were running America it would be run by a bunch of hippies ignoring murdering dictators around the globe as it was to busy taking drugs and disarming all US weapons so a nut case could just walk in.
I am British by the way.

I thinck Bush should apologise for firstly removing an anti-woman, anti-west, anti-human rights and anti-everything that isn't an extremeist muslim view point and secondly a mass murderer, user of WMDs on the Iranians and Kurds, dictator, anti-human rights and anti-west. What was Bush thinking?

Try reading the thread.

There are a number of issues addressed.

Just on your particular rant, though. Bush never attempted to "sell" the war as one for the removal of Saddam.

Why? Because he, and everyone else, knows that his dad could have done precisely that ten years previously. Instead, we had the tyrant kept around for 10 more years. Yeah, what was Bush thinking? Remember the first Gulf War? Or is that something you didn't learn about at school?

Then, we are told that the war is about weapons of mass destruction. Remember them? Perhaps you've forgotten them as not many have been sighted lately.

Remeber how the UN and world opinion didn't count?
No need for Bush to apologise. We wouldn't believe him anyway.Firstly I don't care whether bush did or didn't sell the war about the removal of Saddam. The fact remains that millions of Iraqis now don't run the risk of ending up in mass graves becuase their religion is wrong orthey say something Saddam doen't like and this is a direct concequence of the war. Secondly the Gulf war wasn't about removing Saddam it never was, its soil reason was to liberate Kuwait abeit for what ever reason and the US and allies were treated as liberators.
Thirdly did all those Kurds and Iranians just drop dead of old age. No they were gassed with chemical weapons. Iraq is a big place and it only takes a small jar of a WMD to wipe out a city so it stands to reason that their is no point in dismissing WMDs.
Finally the UN, France and Germany are a joke. France and Germany had good trade links with pre-war Iraq and the war dammaged their economy that was the only reason they objected. France takes the moral high ground then shortly afterwards invites Mugabee to dinner. The UN was partially responsible for the genocide in Rwanda as they could of prevented it and didn't, rounding up Muslims so they could be murdered by Serb forces and it turns to the US and Britain to send peacekeepers when ever their is a problem.
You critizize Bush? Well if you were running America it would be run by a bunch of hippies ignoring murdering dictators around the globe as it was to busy taking drugs and disarming all US weapons so a nut case could just walk in.
I am British by the way.

You are forgetting one little fact, Saddam was supported by the US (and other western countries) before the first Gulf War. That famous example of Kurds getting gased, that was done at a time when Saddam enjoyed backing from Washington (not saying the US was responsible). The US (and other western countries I assume) helped armed Saddam to fight Iran which they were rather pissed at after the whole Ayatollah thing. Ever seen the footage of Rumsfeld shaking Saddams hand in 1982?

I think you are using the term WMD out of context, Iraq never had or used WMD's and how can there be 'a small jar of WMD"?

Critising leaders is part of democracy, want to hear me have a go at John Howard?

If you remember after the First World War the US funded and helped rebuild Germany. This was becuse they were not considered a great threat like Iraq in the 80s. Because we funded Germany should this of prevented us stopping the Holocaust and the Nazi Invasion of Europe. Of course not relationships change over time .fact.
Saddam used chemical weapons which count as WMDs against Iran. So he did have them

Okay, I get you now. Starting with a rhetorical question sometimes make people think you are having a go. Sacrasam is fine, it is just hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic or not in this forum. Continuing off topic, what is your native language and where are you from?My native language is french, as spoken in the south west of France. I was born in Toulouse (south-west of France, just near the spanish border, a nice place, at the same time near the atlantic ocean and the mediterranean sea and very near the pyrenees mountains, but ravaged by the AZF accident). I currently live in Brussels, in the middle belgium, which is a beautiful place full of EXTREMELY friendly people.
And what about you, where are you from/where do you live?

Okay, I get you now. Starting with a rhetorical question sometimes make people think you are having a go. Sacrasam is fine, it is just hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic or not in this forum. Continuing off topic, what is your native language and where are you from?My native language is french, as spoken in the south west of France. I was born in Toulouse (south-west of France, just near the spanish border, a nice place, at the same time near the atlantic ocean and the mediterranean sea and very near the pyrenees mountains, but ravaged by the AZF accident). I currently live in Brussels, in the middle belgium, which is a beautiful place full of EXTREMELY friendly people.
And what about you, where are you from/where do you live?

I'm from Ocean Grove, Victoria (state), Australia. It's a small coastal town with good surf and plenty of nice beaches, it's around two hours drive south of Melbourne. I'm currently working in Quzhou, Zhejiang Province, China ( a few hours south of Shanghai). I wanted to know what language you spoke because over here I'm trying to learn Chinese. It must be good to be able to converse at such a level in another language.

Real HLF2 - I'm going to bed now, but guess what? I'm half British I even have a British passport and my mum lives in Lincolnshire. My grandfather was in the Royal Navy for twenty years and you want to know what else? I enjoy a spliff every now and then so don't start having a go at peoples lifestyle choices and making generalisations, I'm not having a go at yours or making generalisations about conservatives (which I am assuming you are, sorry if I am wrong).

Not too bad a point about Hitler/Saddam by the way. (no, I'm not being sarcastic)

Firstly I don't care whether bush did or didn't sell the war about the removal of Saddam. The fact remains that millions of Iraqis now don't run the risk of ending up in mass graves becuase their religion is wrong orthey say something Saddam doen't like and this is a direct concequence of the war.Now they run the risk of ending up in mass grave for because they're unlucky, finding themselves in the middle of a fighting, or because they have no water or no food, maybe that's better than dying because of sanctions?
Thirdly did all those Kurds and Iranians just drop dead of old age. No they were gassed with chemical weapons. Iraq is a big place and it only takes a small jar of a WMD to wipe out a city so it stands to reason that their is no point in dismissing WMDs.That was 13 years ago. The rwandan genocide was 10 years ago. Selective memory?

Finally the UN, France and Germany are a joke. France and Germany had good trade links with pre-war Iraq and the war dammaged their economy that was the only reason they objected. France takes the moral high ground then shortly afterwards invites Mugabee to dinner.Moral high ground? Don't make me laugh. Who ever pretended France or Germany had any moral high ground. That's some kind of typical with us or against us argument. You say the french and german governments are fu<king up the third world (which I agree), and that they are against the war in Iraq, therefore the war in Iraq is good. Non-sense.

The UN was partially responsible for the genocide in Rwanda as they could of prevented it and didn't, rounding up Muslims so they could be murdered by Serb forces and it turns to the US and Britain to send peacekeepers when ever their is a problem.And why was the UN not able to intervene? Because the US didn't want to recognise the genocide man. And they refused the intervention with unsufferable arrogance that is. We remember albright's jokes and how Washington literally insulted Dallaire when he asked the sending of interposition troups.

You critizize Bush? Well if you were running America it would be run by a bunch of hippies ignoring murdering dictators around the globe as it was to busy taking drugs and disarming all US weapons so a nut case could just walk in.
I am British by the way.But I'm not running America and will never ask to run it. If I want to run something useful, I'll apply to run the red cross instead, not the mafia.

Firstly I don't care whether bush did or didn't sell the war about the removal of Saddam. The fact remains that millions of Iraqis now don't run the risk of ending up in mass graves becuase their religion is wrong orthey say something Saddam doen't like and this is a direct concequence of the war.Now they run the risk of ending up in mass grave for because they're unlucky, finding themselves in the middle of a fighting, or because they have no water or no food, maybe that's better than dying because of sanctions?
Thirdly did all those Kurds and Iranians just drop dead of old age. No they were gassed with chemical weapons. Iraq is a big place and it only takes a small jar of a WMD to wipe out a city so it stands to reason that their is no point in dismissing WMDs.That was 13 years ago. The rwandan genocide was 10 years ago. Selective memory?

Finally the UN, France and Germany are a joke. France and Germany had good trade links with pre-war Iraq and the war dammaged their economy that was the only reason they objected. France takes the moral high ground then shortly afterwards invites Mugabee to dinner.Moral high ground? Don't make me laugh. Who ever pretended France or Germany had any moral high ground. That's some kind of typical with us or against us argument. You say the french and german governments are fu<king up the third world (which I agree), and that they are against the war in Iraq, therefore the war in Iraq is good. Non-sense.

The UN was partially responsible for the genocide in Rwanda as they could of prevented it and didn't, rounding up Muslims so they could be murdered by Serb forces and it turns to the US and Britain to send peacekeepers when ever their is a problem.And why was the UN not able to intervene? Because the US didn't want to recognise the genocide man. And they refused the intervention with unsufferable arrogance that is. We remember albright's jokes and how Washington literally insulted Dallaire when he asked the sending of interposition troups.

You critizize Bush? Well if you were running America it would be run by a bunch of hippies ignoring murdering dictators around the globe as it was to busy taking drugs and disarming all US weapons so a nut case could just walk in.
I am British by the way.But I'm not running America and will never ask to run it. If I want to run something useful, I'll apply to run the red cross instead, not the mafia.

A very recent survey (Ithink it was ICM) found that the vast majority of Iraqis considered themselves better off under the Americans and without Saddam. I think you will agree with me that it is those people that are the important ones and whatever you personally feel about the war you can't begrudge them their freedom and opinions. Also even if their was no sancusions under Saddam do you really belive the money and medicines would not have gone to the army and Saddames followers.
Bosnia was less than ten years ago (who was expected to clean it up the UK and America) and their was direct evidence that Saddam used chemical weapons less than 5 years. I do not have selective memory I am only pointing to examples to make my case. Also how come the anti-war lobby aren't protesting against the Russian invasion of Chechnia and Chinese occupation of Tibet. America is seen as a soft target and it has become fashionable to slag it off. Also the UN can't be trusted to police Iraq as when they are attacked they turn and run to their bases or out altogether. What ever you may think about the war what do you think would happen if the Allies pulled out now? There would be civil war as the Iraqie police can't controll Iraq. The Allies must stay for the time being.
Sorry if i seemed rude I just got cort up :D

I agree that the allies should stay in Iraq, but with a UN mandate and under the UN banner.

"Also how come the anti-war lobby aren't protesting against the Russian invasion of Chechnia and Chinese occupation of Tibet"

Best point you've made. Well, there's a Free Tibet Campaign that's been running for years now, but it's true that we've heard little from the likes of the Stop the War Coalition (apologies for my Anglocentric knowledge) about it. Russia in Chechnya has been almost completely ignored.

However, the scenarios are not equivalent. Chechnya and Tibet are regions within the nations that are oppressing them. Whether or not they should be autonomous or independent is not something I'm able to judge. They are the equivalent of the Kurds in Iraq (and Syria, Iran, Turkey), not the Iraqis 'occupied' by the US. If it's any comfort to you, I do personally condemn the Russian and Chines governments for their actions. But that ain't worth much.

I disagree with most of what you've had to say, but Im tired and want to go home soon so I'll leave it!

Well I am English and I happen to think that your "President Bush" and our "Prime Minister Blair" are a pair of (to put it politely) PLONKERS. The grinning idiots have done more harm than good and I don't know about Americans but the worst thing is that there isn't even 1 decent other candidate or politcal party for us to vote for.

A very recent survey (Ithink it was ICM) found that the vast majority of Iraqis considered themselves better off under the Americans and without Saddam. I think you will agree with me that it is those people that are the important ones and whatever you personally feel about the war you can't begrudge them their freedom and opinions. Also even if their was no sancusions under Saddam do you really belive the money and medicines would not have gone to the army and Saddames followers.I believe they are better because there is no more sanction (well yes there is, but it is not applied), but I believe the don't want the US to run Iraq and I believe the US propaganda is polling the iraqis with questions which suits their agenda, like "are you happy Saddam is gone?" Yes? look they are for the occupation. I think Saddam's power was based on the unjust sanctions. The war was unecessary. The better way would have been to put a light at the end of the tunnel and put an actual conditional end to the sanctions, so the iraqis could know what they had to do to end it.

Bosnia was less than ten years ago (who was expected to clean it up the UK and America) and their was direct evidence that Saddam used chemical weapons less than 5 years. I do not have selective memory I am only pointing to examples to make my case.Still that doesn't explain why the US doesn't give a crap about Rwanda and demonize Saddam over a killing it calls a genocide which happened 13 years ago. There is a lot of propaganda going on there and they can't claim they're interested in the iraqis while they insult the rwandese.

Also how come the anti-war lobby aren't protesting against the Russian invasion of Chechnia and Chinese occupation of Tibet. America is seen as a soft target and it has become fashionable to slag it off.
How come CNN is the biggest channel in the world? I think it is because of the american empire. This site is mainly american and this thread is about Iraq because this is what the american media is focussing on. Make a thread about Tibet and I'll tell you what I think about it. Still doesn't make the occupation of Iraq right.

Also the UN can't be trusted to police Iraq as when they are attacked they turn and run to their bases or out altogether. What ever you may think about the war what do you think would happen if the Allies pulled out now? There would be civil war as the Iraqie police can't controll Iraq. The Allies must stay for the time being.
What about adminitring Iraq?
I have no problem with the US doing the job, I have a problem with the US administring Iraq. Why should I trust the US not to steal the iraqi oil?
The Us is already starting barring reconstruction contracts to foreign nations (foreign to the US, not foreign to Iraq). Iraq free is independant Iraq.

Sorry if i seemed rude I just got cort up :DI don't know what you're talking about I didn't notice. That's how I talk all the time.

Well I am English and I happen to think that your "President Bush" and our "Prime Minister Blair" are a pair of (to put it politely) PLONKERS. The grinning idiots have done more harm than good and I don't know about Americans but the worst thing is that there isn't even 1 decent other candidate or politcal party for us to vote for. I am English to and to be honist the war wasn't about the English or American people it was about the Iraqies. It has done them (in their own words) good to have Saddam removed.

A very recent survey (Ithink it was ICM) found that the vast majority of Iraqis considered themselves better off under the Americans and without Saddam. I think you will agree with me that it is those people that are the important ones and whatever you personally feel about the war you can't begrudge them their freedom and opinions. Also even if their was no sancusions under Saddam do you really belive the money and medicines would not have gone to the army and Saddames followers.

The trouble with poles is that they lie. Not intentionally (at least, not always intentionally), but without a context to understand what their question was and what they were actually polling as well as an understanding of their polling population, the results are virtually meaningless. For a very skewed example, if the poll was conducted in a predominantly Kurdish area of Iraq and the question was something along the lines of, "Do you think you will be allowed more freedom now that Saddam Hussein has been removed from power?" the answer would be most likely yes overwhelmingly. Yet this same question asked to another population might yield a different answer. Also, the definition of "more freedom" is very vauge. While I'm sure that whoever ran this poll wasn't this lax in their structure, to quote a poll without offering the poll itself and an analysis of it isn't very convincing. For instance, I've heard polls that claim a vast majority of Iraqis feel in more danger now that Saddam in gone and would welcome his return.

As for how food and medicine might have been channelled without UN sanctions, we'll never know, so it's useless to speculate. I'm sure you're not advocating we punish people for crimes they might just possibly have committed?


Bosnia was less than ten years ago (who was expected to clean it up the UK and America) and their was direct evidence that Saddam used chemical weapons less than 5 years.

First of all, the conflict in Bosnia was not a "clean up," but a dangerous situation that threatened to explode out of it's immediate area and pull the whole of Europe and, quite possibly, the former USSR into the conflict. However, the US and the UK, at the urging of the UN, did work to resolve the conflict in the region by removing the leader. This is the UN functioning as it was intended. World powers sit down at a forum, asses the situation and decided, as a concerted body, how to act. The United States' flagrant abandonment of the wishes of the UN in the Iraqi conflict not only renders the institution impotent, but sets a dangerous precedent and insinuates that perhaps the US is simply one of the rogue nations it claims to be trying to reign in. The UN has never been more than a "gentleman's agreement" between nations and has only ever had whatever power and authority it can claim because it's member nations have granted it. When it works, it is an excellent place for nations to resolve their differences without bloodshed. However, when it's admittedly sketchy power is undermined, the whole world suffers. Another interesting point is that Clinton managed to go into a sovergn power and remove a disliked leader quickly and succinctly without pissing off the rest of the world to accomplish it.

Secondly, where is this direct evidence? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I'm not aware of it.


I do not have selective memory I am only pointing to examples to make my case. Also how come the anti-war lobby aren't protesting against the Russian invasion of Chechnia and Chinese occupation of Tibet.

I think they are, but it's like another poster has said, right now it's a very popular stance to be angry with the United State's policies because we have acted in the most flagrantly anti-social way.


America is seen as a soft target and it has become fashionable to slag it off.

This is true, however, to be honest, I think that most of the people doing the slagging are equally willing to point out the shortcomings with their own governments. No one has said that any administration currently in power in the world has it's hands free of blood. It's also very possible that one of the main motivating forces behind France, Germany and Russia's reluctance to support the war in Iraq was their business dealings with Iraq and the huge amount of money they had tied up in loans to the nation. Still, it doesn't make our actions right, pure or even justified.


Also the UN can't be trusted to police Iraq as when they are attacked they turn and run to their bases or out altogether. What ever you may think about the war what do you think would happen if the Allies pulled out now? There would be civil war as the Iraqie police can't controll Iraq. The Allies must stay for the time being.

I think you may be right about this, but it's the manner in which it's being handled that sticks in the craw. There aren't really "allies" perse, there's the United States and then those countries we have managed to coerce into helping us in some way. Bush's pride and reluctance to admit to the mistake he made by going in their alone is costing both Iraqi civilians and allied forces their lives and that is just plain wrong.


Sorry if i seemed rude I just got cort up :D

You don't seem rude. It's interesting to hear these opinions coming from someone outside of the US. :D

I am English to and to be honist the war wasn't about the English or American people it was about the Iraqies. It has done them (in their own words) good to have Saddam removed.Good, but what is the plan? What do you suggest instead of Saddam? Shouldn't you have a plan before invading, an alternative. You don't like how Saddam runs the country, you kill him and that's all?
I'm sorry but removing Saddam from power just for the sake of it is not acceptable. You have to suggest something else while you do it.

America is great for many reasons:

1. Hollywood, nobody else makes movies (and if they do I bet they are all crap)

2. Freedom and quality of life, we have the most of both!

3. Our great literature! I bet you anti-americans all bought Michael Moore's books, right? And let's not forget such great classics as Hemmingway, Tolkien and Dickens!

4. Everyone watches the NBA! I know they do, don't try to tell me you don't!

5. Best food on earth (and the freedom to eat it), and one of the few places on earth where there actually is food!

6. We take care of everyone! Every single nation ows us money and is dependant on our military! We give alot to poor nations too, I don't really know how much or what the names of the natons are, but it's ALOT!

7. Svanson Meals...I know what I like and I like ALOT of it!

8. We have most nuclear bombs of all so nobody can argue!

9. We save people from murderous dictators every day! We are so tired of getting nothing but angry writings about how we are evil, I bet at one time we saved YOUR butt too!

10. Everyone loves us, wherever in the world we go, the girls want us and the guys want to be like us. (handsome, free and baseball caps have alot of sexual appeal).

America is great for many reasons:

1. Hollywood, nobody else makes movies (and if they do I bet they are all crap)

2. Freedom and quality of life, we have the most of both!

3. Our great literature! I bet you anti-americans all bought Michael Moore's books, right? And let's not forget such great classics as Hemmingway, Tolkien and Dickens!

4. Everyone watches the NBA! I know they do, don't try to tell me you don't!

5. Best food on earth (and the freedom to eat it), and one of the few places on earth where there actually is food!

6. We take care of everyone! Every single nation ows us money and is dependant on our military! We give alot to poor nations too, I don't really know how much or what the names of the natons are, but it's ALOT!

7. Svanson Meals...I know what I like and I like ALOT of it!

8. We have most nuclear bombs of all so nobody can argue!

9. We save people from murderous dictators every day! We are so tired of getting nothing but angry writings about how we are evil, I bet at one time we saved YOUR butt too!

10. Everyone loves us, wherever in the world we go, the girls want us and the guys want to be like us. (handsome, free and baseball caps have alot of sexual appeal).

America is great for many reasons:

1. Hollywood, nobody else makes movies (and if they do I bet they are all crap)

2. Freedom and quality of life, we have the most of both!

3. Our great literature! I bet you anti-americans all bought Michael Moore's books, right? And let's not forget such great classics as Hemmingway, Tolkien and Dickens!

4. Everyone watches the NBA! I know they do, don't try to tell me you don't!

5. Best food on earth (and the freedom to eat it), and one of the few places on earth where there actually is food!

6. We take care of everyone! Every single nation ows us money and is dependant on our military! We give alot to poor nations too, I don't really know how much or what the names of the natons are, but it's ALOT!

7. Svanson Meals...I know what I like and I like ALOT of it!

8. We have most nuclear bombs of all so nobody can argue!

9. We save people from murderous dictators every day! We are so tired of getting nothing but angry writings about how we are evil, I bet at one time we saved YOUR butt too!

10. Everyone loves us, wherever in the world we go, the girls want us and the guys want to be like us. (handsome, free and baseball caps have alot of sexual appeal).

I am English to and to be honist the war wasn't about the English or American people it was about the Iraqies. It has done them (in their own words) good to have Saddam removed.Good, but what is the plan? What do you suggest instead of Saddam? Shouldn't you have a plan before invading, an alternative. You don't like how Saddam runs the country, you kill him and that's all?
I'm sorry but removing Saddam from power just for the sake of it is not acceptable. You have to suggest something else while you do it.
The Iraqie Governing Counsel?

I am English to and to be honist the war wasn't about the English or American people it was about the Iraqies. It has done them (in their own words) good to have Saddam removed.Good, but what is the plan? What do you suggest instead of Saddam? Shouldn't you have a plan before invading, an alternative. You don't like how Saddam runs the country, you kill him and that's all?
I'm sorry but removing Saddam from power just for the sake of it is not acceptable. You have to suggest something else while you do it.
The Iraqie Governing Counsel?

I am English to and to be honist the war wasn't about the English or American people it was about the Iraqies. It has done them (in their own words) good to have Saddam removed.Good, but what is the plan? What do you suggest instead of Saddam? Shouldn't you have a plan before invading, an alternative. You don't like how Saddam runs the country, you kill him and that's all?
I'm sorry but removing Saddam from power just for the sake of it is not acceptable. You have to suggest something else while you do it.
The Iraqie Governing Counsel?
Iraqi Governing Counsel is a puppet US government. They appointed em, half of em are exiles who told the US about Saddam's "wmd's"
Iraq needs real independence without economic occupation

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too scarred to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.


I'll be coming over to America on the 12th of June, and believe me, I WILL be telling you to your faces what I dislike about you.

And all I expect is... "blah blah we're the biggest country in the world..."

You say that an independent survey doesn't reflect Iraqie feeling generally (and I understand and agree to an extent) but nether does the uprising in Iraq. Iraq has what 30 million people and only about 500 are causing trouble. It is not a popular uprising as for this to take place you would need at least 500,000 actually fighting. The UN like the league of nations is to weak. WHen ever the France or Dutch send peacekeepers it seems like they always make a mistake that leads to bloodshead. The only countries able to go in and police a nation are Britain and the US. Britain has experiance from N Ireland and America has the shere firepower. Another point is why did Saddam give his troops NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) suits if he didn't have NBC weapons and was prepared to use them on allied forces. He wiped out whole Kurdish villages with chemical weapons. The anti-war lobby could be discribed as an 'uprising' but can you imagine what would happen if the uk gov used chemical weapons on it?

The anti americanists are right. America is quickly becoming a haven of fear, xenophobia, dictatorship......
I hope that some day soon, like the next election day, the international community will be able to see a shining new america - one that is willing to listen and compromise; one that seeks a global and domestic commitment to democracy despite what danger lurks; and an america that works boldly and bravely to confront the nastiness of the world in an open and frank manner. ....

Respectfully Submitted,
Cubed1
Foreign Minister of the Democratic Republic of Boozehoundia

Well written.
Dissent is part of democracy.
You have proved that there are still good Americans around.

Indeed, praise is due for this.

You can hate us Americans all you want and I do admit we are in decline but...enlgish and french and many other european nations owe their current existence to us. The world is a better place because of the U.S.
:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum:

Oh yeah. Peer pressure in NS style. Since we're outnumbered, many pr0-americans are going to the dark side, so they won't be attacked frequently for their nation's actions.

Yay for you. I stand tall with my nation's actions. But I hate the friggin President. When I'm 18, I'm voting Edwards, McCain, or someone else that's worthy!

Hi Colodia, I'm from N.H., I agree with you that a lot of people hate the states.I don't,I love my state,and my country.You my freind have a big heart,a big heart though makes for a big target.Don't let there insults get under your skin.Let the arrows of antagonism pass through you,and gaze upon the face of the archer.

:D You write,and debate very well,something I'm not very good at.

:D I think MCain is a good man,I like Nader as well,he's done a lot for working stiff's like myself.

:D With admiration,

Getland.

enlgish and french and many other european nations owe their current existence to us. Really now? I would have thought it the other way around.

The world is a better place because of the U.S.
:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: How so?

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too scarred to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.


I'll be coming over to America on the 12th of June, and believe me, I WILL be telling you to your faces what I dislike about you.

And all I expect is... "blah blah we're the biggest country in the world..."

:x Sir.you should expect hospitality,I've been to England twice and received exellent hospitality,I expect no less from my countrymen.

:roll: Though in my line of business I've met people from many different nationalities,and cultures.Some of them have been rude,but they are a small minority.

:D Enjoy yourself,the girls(or boys)will love your accent!

enlgish and french and many other european nations owe their current existence to us. Really now? I would have thought it the other way around.

The world is a better place because of the U.S.
:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: How so?

Ask anyone in...

-South Korea
-Eastern Europe
-Germany
-France (although they're not willing to admit it)

Ask anyone in...
-South Korea
-Eastern Europe
-Germany
-France (although they're not willing to admit it)
Been to South Korea many times. Most people I've had a chat with aren't so fond of the US presence there. And generally if you think a country is not willing to admit it, you are assuming to much. I've not really been to Germany or Eastern Europe so I will not comment on those. However, I'd love to see further proof beyond heresay.

Why? Well...in all honesty, it's cause they're too scarred to come over here and tell us to our faces because they know we've got the most feared criminals, and that we allow guns in the hands of nearly everybody.


I'll be coming over to America on the 12th of June, and believe me, I WILL be telling you to your faces what I dislike about you.

And all I expect is... "blah blah we're the biggest country in the world..."

:x Sir.you should expect hospitality,I've been to England twice and received exellent hospitality,I expect no less from my countrymen.

:roll: Though in my line of business I've met people from many different nationalities,and cultures.Some of them have been rude,but they are a small minority.

:D Enjoy yourself,the girls(or boys)will love your accent!

ahh...thank you. I was gonna get him for that but I lost track of where the posts were going after I left...

*ahem* Yes. Listen to Getland (thanks for the compliment, Get!)
We provide excellent hospitality. Provided your not in any of our major cities like LA, New York, Chicago, etc.

We're quite friendly so long as your polite. Need directions? You got it. Need a lift? You got it. Need to "talk" your way into discounts? Easy work.

Although be careful WHO you talk to. As said above, some cultures and people can get very nasty at you. DO NOT drink tea in public. DO NOT say English slangs, as they are very weird. VERY WEIRD.

And yes...sadly, the girls will love your accent. Provided your blond with blue eyes. Damn you.

Ask anyone in...
-South Korea
-Eastern Europe
-Germany
-France (although they're not willing to admit it)
Been to South Korea many times. Most people I've had a chat with aren't so fond of the US presence there. And generally if you think a country is not willing to admit it, you are assuming to much. I've not really been to Germany or Eastern Europe so I will not comment on those. However, I'd love to see further proof beyond heresay.
*sigh* YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN WHEN I TALK ABOUT THESE COUNTRIES!

Reading this thread i notice:

The Left wingers and moderates are making decent arguments with well thought out points.

The Right Wingers are spouting patriotic rhetoric, saying they support Bush and whatnot but not really giving any evidence to the contrary.

"We had to protect America!" From what? Saddam had no WMD's or chem or bio weapons. The White House admitted it. Think before you type. Guess what? The only countries that are ever a "threat" to america (if even for one day) are the ones they ARM first. Like Iraq.

Reading this thread i notice:

The Left wingers and moderates are making decent arguments with well thought out points.

The Right Wingers are spouting patriotic rhetoric, saying they support Bush and whatnot but not really giving any evidence to the contrary.

"We had to protect America!" From what? Saddam had no WMD's or chem or bio weapons. The White House admitted it. Think before you type. Guess what? The only countries that are ever a "threat" to america (if even for one day) are the ones they ARM first. Like Iraq.

Well the lefties are numerous and just use each other as back ups and copy from other topics. But that's a whole different thing

The White House NEVER ONCE said that Saddam had no WMD. They said that there was no credible intelligence on it. Like I said before, it was retarded of the President to do such a thing. But what can I do about it?

Oh so WE armed Iraq? Yeah, us, Germany and France too...oh wait, they OPPOSED the war didn't they?

America is great for many reasons:

1. Hollywood, nobody else makes movies (and if they do I bet they are all crap)

2. Freedom and quality of life, we have the most of both!

3. Our great literature! I bet you anti-americans all bought Michael Moore's books, right? And let's not forget such great classics as Hemmingway, Tolkien and Dickens!

4. Everyone watches the NBA! I know they do, don't try to tell me you don't!

5. Best food on earth (and the freedom to eat it), and one of the few places on earth where there actually is food!

6. We take care of everyone! Every single nation ows us money and is dependant on our military! We give alot to poor nations too, I don't really know how much or what the names of the natons are, but it's ALOT!

7. Svanson Meals...I know what I like and I like ALOT of it!

8. We have most nuclear bombs of all so nobody can argue!

9. We save people from murderous dictators every day! We are so tired of getting nothing but angry writings about how we are evil, I bet at one time we saved YOUR butt too!

10. Everyone loves us, wherever in the world we go, the girls want us and the guys want to be like us. (handsome, free and baseball caps have alot of sexual appeal).


1. America makes crap and good movies in roughly equal amounts, American History X good, Matrix good,Titanic not good, U-571, total crap. That's all about personal opinion. Hollywood just has the most money. When was the last time you watched a 'foriegn' movie? Amelie (sp?) (French) was an awesome movie, Romper Stomper (Australian) is great and Battle Royal (Japanese) goes off. Peter Wier (he made the Lord of the Rings movies) is Australian (or is he a Kiwi?), not American.

2. We have them too, you don't see me bragging about it. Why do you say you have the 'most'?

3. Micheal Moore, yes he is very good. Tolkien was British and so was Charles Dickens. Bryce Courtney (he wrote 'The Power of One') is Australian, so the US dosen't have the 'greatest' writers, in my opinion, no one dose. Edgar Allen Poe was another good US writer.

4. I honestly don't like basket ball, not big fan of Aussie Rules either but I prefer it to basket ball so 'we all' don't watch it.

5. Best food on earth? Burger King, KFC and McDonalds hardly rate highly in the world of food. Personally, I think the Chinese have some of the best food on earth but I do love a good steak. I have the 'freedom' to eat as much as I want at home (Australia) and here (China). Again, food is about personal opinion

6. Since when have you 'taken care' of everyone? We owe you nothing, much like you owe us nothing. Most (possibly all) western goernments contribute to foriegn aid, I know mine dose. Dosen't the US owe money to Japan? (correct me if I am wrong). Saving 'our butts' was in your interest in WW2, not that the US actually sent troops here to guard against a possible Japanese invasion. The US didn't help us out when we asked when it came to East TImor but here we are supporting you in Iraq, so don't make claims like that, it might offend people.

7. I have no idea what that is

8. Are you joking with that point?

9. Hows about supportring dictators such as Pinochet and other Latin American dictators? Don't forget the US, along with other western nations, supported Saddam in the 80's.

10. That is just a mis-conception, I feel kind of sorry for some Americans when they travel abroad because they do come across the 'bloody American' attitude a fair bit in countries like Australia and Britain (from what I gathered when I lived there for awhile). If I mention to someone that I met an American normally the first question they ask is "Were they okay?". This might be hard to understand if you are American but trust me, you haven't got the best reputation abroad and 'not everybody' loves you. It's easy as hell to get booty if you're a foriegner in any country (mostly, anyway). And no , I 'don't want to be like you', I'm happy to be my own nationality, I do like jeans but I don't like wearing baseball caps though.

Please don't think I'm having an 'anti-American' rant or countering it just because it is pro-American, it's just that there are some untruths here. I think this is why 'pro-American' posts attract allot of crisism, they make claims that aren't true and both indirectly and directly put-down other countries, such as saying 'nobody else makes movies, if they do I bet they are crap' and going on about freedoms, by saying you are 'free' you're impling we are not which is offensive.

Once again, I'm not 'anti-American' (stupid term anyway) or an 'America hatrer', I like allot of American bands such as Bad Religion, Dead Kennedy's, Black Flag and Jimi Hendrix goes off. I do eat KFC and I currently work with an American and we get along fine. Really, don't alienate your allies by saying things like this.

Oh so WE armed Iraq? Yeah, us, Germany and France too...oh wait, they OPPOSED the war didn't they?

I never said they were any better, but because they did it doesn't make it right for anyone to.

:D Your welcome Colodia.

:lol: And for anyone who is listening.DO NOT!! I REPEAT!! DO NOT CALL ANY AMERICAN FROM THE SOUTHERN STATES A YANK!!

:D I don't mind,I'm from N.H.,I am a yank and proud of it.

My sothern brethern though take the word as an insult with good reason.

I can say I don't like the word "Canuk" considering my great granpie was from P.E.I.

I also have an uncle who lives in Virginia.

Tea Drinking Hell I would'nt refuse a cup. I prefer coffe though. :lol:

Yanks are those from the former colonies.

Yanks =/= Westerners (me!)
Yanks=/=/=/=/= Southerners (BIG NO NO!)

But wth, if you feel like getting into a fight, go into a bar in Mississippi and use a heavy British accent and call everyone bloody rednecked Yankees....wowie....I was scarred to type that! :shock: not really

:lol: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Awesome. Look at me! 100 posts in under a week! NEW RECORD!

*ends self-topic hijacking*

Alot of countrys dis america because american's always put other country's down.. especially mine...

Reading this thread i notice:

The Left wingers and moderates are making decent arguments with well thought out points.

The Right Wingers are spouting patriotic rhetoric, saying they support Bush and whatnot but not really giving any evidence to the contrary.

"We had to protect America!" From what? Saddam had no WMD's or chem or bio weapons. The White House admitted it. Think before you type. Guess what? The only countries that are ever a "threat" to america (if even for one day) are the ones they ARM first. Like Iraq.What? How them hell am I making crap arguments? Read the thread properly :tantrum: :tantrum:

Reading this thread i notice:

The Left wingers and moderates are making decent arguments with well thought out points.

The Right Wingers are spouting patriotic rhetoric, saying they support Bush and whatnot but not really giving any evidence to the contrary.

"We had to protect America!" From what? Saddam had no WMD's or chem or bio weapons. The White House admitted it. Think before you type. Guess what? The only countries that are ever a "threat" to america (if even for one day) are the ones they ARM first. Like Iraq.

Wrong...
First of all, you're going to hear what you want to hear. If you like Bush, the conservatives here will be making better arguments, and if you hate him, than you will find their arguments to be crap...BUT...
Think before you talk. First of all, the White House never said that Saddam had no WMD's...it's a little hard to use them against your own people when you don't have them, isn't it? Second of all, as the most powerful nation in the world, we have a responsiblilty to defend those who cannot defend themselves. Before the war, Amnesty International listed Iraq as the country with the highest number of unaccounted for people in the world. Seriously...we get over there and find pits full of bodies. Nobody was afraid of a land invasion by the Iraqi army, but regardless, Saddam was still funding terrorists. We never armed Iraq, I assume you're thinking of the Iran-Contra scandal, where we sold arms to Iran. The Iraqis were using French and Russian arms against us. Even worse, had it not been for the Israelis, then Saddam would surely have had nuclear weapons using materials from Osiarq (the nuclear reactor the French traded the Iraqis for oil). Don't think for a second that Saddam didn't have chemical or biological weapons, or that he wouldn't have sold them to terrorists at the drop of a hat. Regardless, we went into Iraq not solely out of self interest, but to stop the tourture and murder of thousands of innocent people. George W. Bush has led America excellently, and I consider him to be the second greatest president of my lifetime, next to the awesomeness of Ronald Reagan.

Wrong...
First of all, you're going to hear what you want to hear. If you like Bush, the conservatives here will be making better arguments, and if you hate him, than you will find their arguments to be crap...BUT...

Pretty much the only thing I agreed with in your post.


Think before you talk. First of all, the White House never said that Saddam had no WMD's...it's a little hard to use them against your own people when you don't have them, isn't it?

Again, we're willfully missing the point here. The entire world was against Saddam Hussein and believed that he might posses WMD or the drive to acquire them. The problem is, and listen closely here, instead of using the common urge to remove Saddam, The Shrub chose to lie to us about the immediacy of Saddam's threat, concoct ties to bin Laden and piss away any goodwill the US had after 9/11 in order to pursue a conflict he didn't understand and has not trapped us in on his own timetable. The big point here is that OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT LIED TO US IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIS OWN VANITY WAR AND HE GOT CAUGHT. Now, thousands of people are dead. If I remember correctly, we tried to impeach our last President for lying about a blow job. So where are the articles of impeachment for this liar?


Second of all, as the most powerful nation in the world, we have a responsiblilty to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

Interesting choice of words since we're wholesale slaughtering them right now. I guess they're easier to defend when they're dead? And why, exactly, do we have this responsibility? They don't want us over there. They have never wanted us over there. Yet, we're over there. By your same logic, Russia and China could invade us because Bush's medicare and medicade looting is going to kill thousands of people who can't afford life-saving treatments.


Before the war, Amnesty International listed Iraq as the country with the highest number of unaccounted for people in the world.

It's amazing how Amnesty International gets used by NeoCons trying to justify this mess. Are you aware that the US is also on AI's list for human rights violations both in our country and abroad. So, should we invade ourselves?


Seriously...we get over there and find pits full of bodies.

So, lemme get this straight:

Saddam killing civilians = bad
The U.S. killing civillians = defence

Got it.


Nobody was afraid of a land invasion by the Iraqi army, but regardless, Saddam was still funding terrorists.

Your proof of this link is where? There's a commission in Washington, D.C. that would be very interested in seeing this information that you have and no one else does.


We never armed Iraq,


I'm gonna have to call BS on this. Read something:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29&notFound=true

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/12.21A.us.firms.iraq.htm

http://www.nonviolentways.org/arming-iraq.html

There you go. Remember, knowledge is power.


I assume you're thinking of the Iran-Contra scandal, where we sold arms to Iran.

Nope, that was a completely different blunder. But thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.


The Iraqis were using French and Russian arms against us.

And were dropping our chemical weapons on their own people.


Even worse, had it not been for the Israelis, then Saddam would surely have had nuclear weapons using materials from Osiarq (the nuclear reactor the French traded the Iraqis for oil).

Pure. Complete. Utter. Speculation.


Don't think for a second that Saddam didn't have chemical or biological weapons, or that he wouldn't have sold them to terrorists at the drop of a hat.

Again, missing the point. See above.


Regardless, we went into Iraq not solely out of self interest, but to stop the tourture and murder of thousands of innocent people.

Oh the hell we did. There is torture and murder of thousands of innocent people going on right now in about a billion countries across the globe and we're not involved. Why Iraq? Why now? Why unilaterally? I'll tell you. Money and grudges and reelection strategy and smokescreens from real problems.


George W. Bush has led America excellently,


What is your criteria, exactly?


and I consider him to be the second greatest president of my lifetime, next to the awesomeness of Ronald Reagan.

Oh. Dear. God.

Well, that explains that.

Berkylvania put it nicely.

I don't "hear what i want to hear." When i want news i check all sources, "left" and "right" winged. And moderate in general. And interpret accordingly. That's the closest you can get to a real story quite honestly.

My point about Bush is: There is much more fact and opinion against him than for him, and so far i have met one person who defended his Presidency with facts. ONE.

If you believe his Presidency is so good, tell us why. Can you? I'd like to know.

To be fair, i can even think of something good he's done: Proposed the banning of Partial Birth Abortions.

I'm not Partisan or illogical, and i can see the positives in those i dislike, but there are so few and so many negatives in Bush, i simply cannot like or agree with him.

EDIT: Reagan, the greatest? That explains a lot

Wasn't he the one who supplied South American death squads with a multitude of weapons?