NationStates Jolt Archive

Just received a Cert Advisory:
...Microsoft has released four security bulletins listing a number of
vulnerabilities which affect a variety of Microsoft Windows software
packages. The following section summarizes the issues identified in
their bulletins....

MS site for more info: http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/200404_windows.asp

:evil:

Just received a Cert Advisory:
...Microsoft has released four security bulletins listing a number of
vulnerabilities which affect a variety of Microsoft Windows software
packages. The following section summarizes the issues identified in
their bulletins....

MS site for more info: http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/200404_windows.asp

:evil:

heh, would you rather they not tell you and you find out for yourself there are known exploits by having your box hacked? Granted, there seem to be a lot of these security patches but I try to look at it positively. :)

If you dont run any kind of firewall...you certainly should.

La la la..
I own Mac..
La la la..
Never gets Hacked..
La la la..

Firewalls don't stop everything and are as good as useless if you don't keep things updated.

Macs are funny.

Oh, that must have been what the auto update thingy was telling me about.

Firewalls don't stop everything and are as good as useless if you don't keep things updated.

Macs are funny.

Oh, that must have been what the auto update thingy was telling me about.

Not running firewall is foolish.
wether its a software firewall or a hardware one.....

Firewalls don't stop everything and are as good as useless if you don't keep things updated.

Macs are funny.

Oh, that must have been what the auto update thingy was telling me about.

Not running firewall is foolish.
wether its a software firewall or a hardware one.....

I agree I'm just saying you have to keep your OS updated. Have you ever noticed though how much flack Microsoft seems to take over security bugs in software. You almost feel sorry for them. It's not as if Mac or Linux never crashes or is attacked.

It's not as if Mac or Linux never crashes or is attacked.Well... My Mac OS-X does 'crash' once every month or so.. but I have NEVER Recieved a Virus/hack attack

You never know, they may have stealthly scanned for open ports. *dum dum Jaws Theme*

As far as I know I have never had an outside attack. Although I have scanned my own machine.

Hey, thanks for the updates.

My system now has as many patches as a biker's jacket.

XP=Xtra Patchwork?

La la la..
I own Mac..
La la la..
Never gets Hacked..
La la la..
Yeah but... ahem... nobody likes the guy with the Mac. They all stand in the corner hugging their little Macs and start trying to Move to iceland.

And hell! I'd rather not have one of these new fangled strange compact Mac things. If i don't have my big beige box with insanely huge heatsink and mind numbinly complex system of flashing lights, I'd die!

Besides, Macs are good for one thing: Video editing.
All the GOOD games come out on Win.

And as for Linux - LINUX AM WIN!

Why Iceland?


One thing for Macs though, the new ones at least, do look a darn sight nicer than the PC I have. Macs are also more stable and the OS links with the hardware better.

Linux, and other such incarnations, should only be used by Hackers, Crackers, webmasters or home users with a death wish.

heh, would you rather they not tell you and you find out for yourself there are known exploits by having your box hacked? Granted, there seem to be a lot of these security patches but I try to look at it positively. :)

Well, MS didn't tell me - Cert did.
I also have auto-update for critical updates.
I run ZA for a firewall and I have AVG anti-virus.
I use SpyBot and AdAware too.

I think I was just p.o'd 'cause one of the updates goes back to Win98!
I am probably more than a little technically challenged, but it seems to me that most of this shoulda been taken care of a while ago in reference to 98.
This means that XP will have this happening for years to come, too. :(

Macs do crash.

And they don't get hacked all that often is because they don't make a significant portion of the computing world to make it all that alraming when it does happen.

I'm trying to switch from Windows to Linux, but I still want to keep my games and my media files.

Aren't there some programs that allow Linux to run Windows programs?

Red Hat 9.0 and the latest version of Mandrake happen to be very user friendly and great to set up home netwroking.

heh, would you rather they not tell you and you find out for yourself there are known exploits by having your box hacked? Granted, there seem to be a lot of these security patches but I try to look at it positively. :)

Well, MS didn't tell me - Cert did.
I also have auto-update for critical updates.
I run ZA for a firewall and I have AVG anti-virus.
I use SpyBot and AdAware too.

I think I was just p.o'd 'cause one of the updates goes back to Win98!
I am probably more than a little technically challenged, but it seems to me that most of this shoulda been taken care of a while ago in reference to 98.
This means that XP will have this happening for years to come, too. :(

oh yeah, for as long as microsoft continues to support it anyway.

It's going to be interesting to see if the way they deal with these things is changed with the new Windows due out in '05.

Just received a Cert Advisory:
...Microsoft has released four security bulletins listing a number of
vulnerabilities which affect a variety of Microsoft Windows software
packages. The following section summarizes the issues identified in
their bulletins....

MS site for more info: http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/200404_windows.asp

:evil:Dear Lord, a companey that would alert you to potential problems before they destroy your comp. Nothing but courtesy and considering for oyur customers!

Why Iceland?


One thing for Macs though, the new ones at least, do look a darn sight nicer than the PC I have. Macs are also more stable and the OS links with the hardware better.

Linux, and other such incarnations, should only be used by Hackers, Crackers, webmasters or home users with a death wish.

WHy Iceland?
He was making an allusion to a Flash movie about Mac users

Lemme dig it up..

No...this isn't it..but it's really close (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/apple.php)

Here it is! (http://www.ubergeek.tv/article.php?pid=55)

I've run Win XP for a while now with no hacks or viruses, even though I lack a firewall. One thing that helps a lot is to avoid IE. Great idea to have a browser with gaping security holes directly linked to the OS...

Opera forever!

Aren't there some programs that allow Linux to run Windows programs?

Yes there are.

WINE , for instance is one of the better ones..

Uhh..LINDOWS is one I believe.....or it may just be a windows emulator....

theres another one too wich I cant remember right now.

Im a PC tech..(or I soon will be)....but, I dont have much opportunity to play around with Linux..

But if you google it, for "Windows Emulators for Linux" ..you'll find what you need.

Yes there are.

WINE , for instance is one of the better ones..

Uhh..LINDOWS is one I believe.....or it may just be a windows emulator....

theres another one too wich I cant remember right now.

Im a PC tech..(or I soon will be)....but, I dont have much opportunity to play around with Linux..

But if you google it, for "Windows Emulators for Linux" ..you'll find what you need.Lindows is based on WINE, which is, unfortunately, LGPL. derives from WINE are crossover, winex and many others.

Secondly, WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator, and it is not an emulator. It is an implementation of the windows API, which means that it can theorically run at the same speed, sometimes faster.

Ahh..gotcha,As I said....I dont get an opportunity to play around with Linux very much, although that will be a MUST for the future.
Sadly, thus far Im pretty windows-dependant.
There ARE programs for Linux that will run windows programs..but from what Ive heard,..not too many of them are super-great....
But..as I havent usd them myself.....I cant give you a good answer.

winex is great, however to get a binary you need to pay them some cash becouse the people who make it need to pay for some of the libraries, but you can play modern games on winex like warcraft 3 and morrowind... and others...

Whatever os you go for your gonna get patches (except I think solaris, which has had six...) but the big thing is ms systems are permissive (allowing things by default) where as *ix systems deny by default...

But it's the eternal toss up do you want ease (windows) or do you want security, reliablility and multi-threading (*ix) (ps mac now being based on a bsd is almost a flavour of *ix)

KDE is an excellent desktop environement, some like gnome, *ix os's are good if you, like playing with things, if you want a highly configurable machine, if you write software, web development, databases, require uptime, don't want annoying viruses... Also as a cheap alternative to windows for a simple office type machine, a simple install with KDE and open office (as fully compatible with MS Office as anything can be) costs £70 for say suse 9, where as a copy of Windows XP costs £300 as does a copy of MS Office pro... of course you need to be picky about printers and such but there are sites that help...

heh, would you rather they not tell you and you find out for yourself there are known exploits by having your box hacked? Granted, there seem to be a lot of these security patches but I try to look at it positively. :)

Well, MS didn't tell me - Cert did.
I also have auto-update for critical updates.
I run ZA for a firewall and I have AVG anti-virus.
I use SpyBot and AdAware too.

I think I was just p.o'd 'cause one of the updates goes back to Win98!
I am probably more than a little technically challenged, but it seems to me that most of this shoulda been taken care of a while ago in reference to 98.
This means that XP will have this happening for years to come, too. :(

oh yeah, for as long as microsoft continues to support it anyway.

It's going to be interesting to see if the way they deal with these things is changed with the new Windows due out in '05.

I believe support for Windows '98 has just ended - that's six years of support (roughly).

Microsoft decided to maintain a level of support for 98 and nt becouse lots of poorer nations went, well we can't afford your software so if you stop support we'll change to opensource software...

I always feel sorry for the old NT team, I think they came from dec... they made the os quick and good at multi threading and compatible. Then along came marketing and law and went nooooo it can't be easily compatible becouse we want people to use MS end to end... result being poor support for NSF and a very closed shop on cifs and other MS protocols. Continued with their latest Active Directory product which is based on kerberous with special modules which as far as anyone can tell their soul purpose is to make it very difficult for you to interact with it if your not using MS ware...
However MS stuff is great if you want to play games... and it is good if you don't want to know about the system or do more then two things at once. Also I wouldn't put a windows machine online without a real firewall (ergo a box that sits outside of the machine...)

winex is great, however to get a binary you need to pay them some cash becouse the people who make it need to pay for some of the libraries, but you can play modern games on winex like warcraft 3 and morrowind... and others...I don't know about morrowind (but I can check the database is anyone's interested, but I play Warcraft3 with WINE (no winex). You can use warcraft 3 in opengl mode with the "war3.exe -opengl" command and it runs smoothly (on my machine it is faster than on the original windows), for no cost.

yeah anything opengl should run in wine, but winex has support for direct x. I hadn't tried opengl for running warcraft... it would never have occured to me! DoH!
However I still have my trusty win98 box for game playing...

I'd just like to say i run Win XP Pro (Home is a deathtrap)
No Firewall
No AntiVirus
No Ad/Pop-up Killers
I'm on an always on 512K ADSL connection.

I do not get hacked
My computer does not crash
I have never had a virus
And finally, the only popups i get are on cheap web sites. (about one for every 15 sites i visit)

I find the trick to this is 4 important steps:

4) Don't install any 'free' programs - UNLESS IT IS A TRIAL OR LESS FEATURED VERSION - most are crap and useless anyway, or use advertising to gain revenue - if you are constantly getting ad's, you are the one who's installed them!!!
3) Don't open suspicious email attachments (and i very much doubt there are such things as viruses that can auto run on opening the email - they only work if you have office installed and didnt pay attention to step 2)
2) UPDATE!! I can't stress this enough, update window allllllll the time, it is a good os, it will never fail you if you always update everything. It's not like it's hard!
1) And the most important step: Use your common sense, and know your computer. If it starts to act strange, look for changes - think back, what did i do before the last restart, what was the last thing i ran? If it was suspect, then you should install a virus scanner, if only temporarily (a good one - AVG, McAffee, and other cheap virus scanners are useless. A good one is Norton Antivirus, or if you can get it, VET. VET i'm a bit unsure about, the last time i used it was the win 95 version, but it will detect and kill new viruses still today. Beware though, it can be a little more messy than the other brand names, but will always destroy the virus.)

For those who will contest my distaste of AVG:
I was recently reparing a computer for a client. Using the latest version of AVG, 100% updated. The computer was diagnosed to have 6 viruses. AVG failed to remove them.
I quietly scoffed at AVG and installed Norton Antivirus 2000 on said PC. We restarted and upon restart, Norton removed the virus from resident memory, and also issued a audible and visual warning, something AVG never did. After leaving Norton to scan the computer for viruses for around 45 mins, it reported a whopping 843 viruses!!! A simple one click on the auto clean button and another 30 min wait, and the computer was good as new. Most viruses were removed, and the remaining 30 were quarantened.
We uninstalled AVG.

For those who will contest my distaste of McAffee:
This hate runs deep.
About 1 year ago, a client called me. He was having problems with his computer - Outlook Express would no longer open, it would also freeze the computer whenever he attempted to open it. I went around and to cut a long story short, the problem was that he had upgraded to another antivirus, in the process he had uninstalled McAffee, which had, while trying to reverse email protection, removed some vital files which OE needed to run. This, while only an inconveinience (a 3 day one - which for this client, self-employed interior designer, using his email for business) was less than welcome, and shows McAffee's poor testing and software design ability - i ask myself, what other holes are in their software if something so obvious went unfixed. (It was a common error). To further my distaste of McAffee was my encounter with McAffee personal firewall.
Ahhhhh. If anyone was able to fuck up an uninstall, it was McAffee.
Long story short, you uninstall McAffee personal firewall, you run a good risk of having to reinstall it, or windows, just to get your internet connection working again. Upon uninstall, all incoming traffic is left redirected to McAffee. In the abscence of McAffee personal firewall, all internet traffic is lost. In effect. It blocks all incoming traffic. Everything.
One more thing with McAffee - It is the slowest antivirus i have ever seen, say goodbye to performance people, flashy graphics and badly written code are much more important than you.

In case you are wondering why I don't run security programs. It is not arrogance or stupidity or anything like that... It's just that the simple fact is, security software slows your computer down, and I would sooner make that trade off and have a fast computer, than a slow tank of a calculator.

And I also would like to say, I love macs - i don't own one because of lack of software support, and i consider them attractive, fast, stable, expensive paperweights.
And I think Linux is doomed in the public market. I dont care how free, or how stable (or not - i crashed linux 10 times in one night and gave up - that was a fresh install with KDE and it was BIGGER and SLOWER than windows!!!) your OS is. If the local idiot can't log in - he aint gonna use it.
I don't want an adventure with peril and dizzying adreneline rushes every time i want to update my 'kernel'. I want to be spoon fed the updates, one at a time, from a button on my desktop.
I want to know if all else fails, i can read a manual, or call support desk and look and hear real english.
And so does everyone else in the world that isn't out to try and look cool, or up to date, with a product that is all out poorly designed.
Unix is good - it doesn't try to replace a product that it is so severely inferior to. Linux is the immature try hard of the computer world. Not quite Windows, not quite Unix. And still, for some unknown to me god forsaken reason, the 'cool' and 'elite' still use it.
Once more, for those who want to nitpick - i have installed and used:
RedHat linux, Corel Linux, SuSe Linux (wouldn't let me up my screen res about 640x480 on a 2Mb S3 card even though i'd installed the driver. Also told me repetedly i had no wheel on my mouse, when, quite clearly, i do.)
Of all those linuxes, i was most impressed with redhat, but it was still under par whith a complex install, bloated install size and quite poor performance. Also the interface lacked intuitivity.

Oh well, i'm off to get icecream, and I will then return to my stable, fast, uncluttered with useless software computer!
Enjoy your night!

P.S. Good firewalls are BlackICE Defender, and ZoneLab's ZoneAlarm. BlackICE is more professional, whereas i would reccomend ZoleAlarm for anyone, it is very easy to use, and has alot of documentation, and best of all, is free!

I agree Linux can be a monster, and if poorly installed a complete dog (installing a machine at home with say apache, apache2, samba, mysql, sap, tripwire, and 800 applications you wont use).
Linux is liked by the 'cool' and 'elite' for configurability, abundence of source code, a good and helpful community (as long as you look in the right places).
Linux and Unix share POSIX (and Mac) so if you can make it work on FreeBSD you can make it work on Solaris, or RedHat Linux or Suse Linux... I agree it isn't ready for widespread consumption but considering it's age as an operating system it's flying along.
Upgrading the Kernel with a packaged distro is a piece of cake (and I do it without fear on our development(to make sure it works) and production servers whilst their running), you can't use windows at a real server level, and Linux is as good as most current versions of Unix for a wide variety of tasks, (file sharing, security, database, version control etc)

But yep Linux wont be in the home market for many years, but it's nice to have something else that if you are interested in computing, learning and generally getting to know the details of the system.

Oh your four rules should be stamped onto stupid users foreheads... I entirely agree! however I still like my firewalls, just look at the fandangled rpc vulnerability! oooppps

Also what was the last versions of Red Hat and Suse you used? I found the Latest Red Hat Enterprise server install so annoyingly easy I had to check that it wasn't microsoft *laughs* same with the Suse, the biggest annouance I find is printers, and nvidia cards in suse... I've managed to set up a Linux box so it was so horribly slow I could have topped myself, but linux is ever a learning curve... but no it's not perfect, no it isn't for everyone, but yes it's good to have an alternative...

Win 2k I think is the best desktop from microsoft for working environment, I don't have many problems with it... although yes it is a bit resource heavy but it runs my notes which is all I need it for :c) administering the servers is all done from my linux box... except the three windows servers (pdc, bdc and terminal server) which I admin from the 2k desktop...

And unix is a multi-user os, built for solid server performance, Linux development builds on the unix view adding a greater network centric and interchangable view point on it.

(if you install all of the software on linux disks it takes up about 5gig, includes 3 industrial scale databases, over a hundred games, about 30 editors, 2 mail servers, about 1500 development libraries... (you get my point...) when you install xp it takes up 2 gig and you get notepad)
*sigh I wonder if this has double posted*

To Asphyxsia :
Try Mandrake. Mandrake linux is the prefered distro for the personnal home user. It is easy to use and efficient. XP didn't recognise my monitor and Mandrake did without doing anything.

The problem with linux is that is is very scalable and flexible. You can run it on your PDA as well as on your fridge. The end user can be a little confused and try a linux distro for fridges, which will appear a little screwed on his PC. But the advantage is that it is scalable and flexible. I always have a Knoppix CD near my computer to repair when something goes wrong with my XP desktop, or with the hard drive or anything. I have a distro just to watch divx movies on a computer which doesn't even have a hard drive. Linux is much much wider than windows. If you just want to replace windows, try Mandrake.

I run XP Pro and 98. The 98 PC is a collection on parts from previous incarnations but still works somehow. CD Burner died lately.

(and i very much doubt there are such things as viruses that can auto run on opening the email - they only work if you have office installed and didnt pay attention to step 2)
And I also would like to say, I love macs - i don't own one because of lack of software support, and i consider them attractive, fast, stable, expensive paperweights.
And I think Linux is doomed in the public market. I dont care how free, or how stable (or not - i crashed linux 10 times in one night and gave up - that was a fresh install with KDE and it was BIGGER and SLOWER than windows!!!) your OS is. If the local idiot can't log in - he aint gonna use it.
I don't want an adventure with peril and dizzying adreneline rushes every time i want to update my 'kernel'. I want to be spoon fed the updates, one at a time, from a button on my desktop.

the 'cool' and 'elite' still use it.


They can still run if they are embedded into active X, there are viruses that can run without you even having to open the e-mail, the MIME viruses, although as you say if your computer is update this should be less of problem.

Mac comment: lol and they are very attractive and useful for graphics work I believe, but not in the same sense as Acorn.

I rarely use Linux, I hae it on a laptop, and tried to install it on a PC, not enough RAM I fear, I may use it more over the summer when I try to program in C.

The Linux interface isn't that good, it is hard to use, and the open source nature, in my opinion, makes it a security risk. I cannot see it as a big threat to Windows which has the whole public, virtually, reliant on it.


" the 'cool' and 'elite' still use it." ----- Thankyou. Although not so much.

:lol:

To Asphyxsia :
Try Mandrake. Mandrake linux is the prefered distro for the personnal home user. It is easy to use and efficient. XP didn't recognise my monitor and Mandrake did without doing anything.

The problem with linux is that is is very scalable and flexible. You can run it on your PDA as well as on your fridge. The end user can be a little confused and try a linux distro for fridges, which will appear a little screwed on his PC. But the advantage is that it is scalable and flexible. I always have a Knoppix CD near my computer to repair when something goes wrong with my XP desktop, or with the hard drive or anything. I have a distro just to watch divx movies on a computer which doesn't even have a hard drive. Linux is much much wider than windows. If you just want to replace windows, try Mandrake.

If it were not for my Linux installation on my computer, as well as XP, I would have lost lot of files when XP packed in, although the duel system may have been partly to blame, now I use 2000.

If it were not for my Linux installation on my computer, as well as XP, I would have lost lot of files when XP packed in, although the duel system may have been partly to blame, now I use 2000.I use Knoppix. It is a live on CD distro. You don't have to install it. You go to the BIOS, tell it to boot on the CD, put the CD in your drive and let it run. It does even run without a hard drive (or when it is physically damaged). Knoppix is based on debian and has one of the best hardware recognition I know for an OS.

I don't see Linux as a competitor for windows. Linux is a standard. Every other OS should comply to it in my opinion. In about 3 or 4 years from now, everybody will use it without even knowing it, as it will be embedded everywhere, in your fridge, your car, your phone and everywhere. I think Linux is a big step forward as OS writers will not have to reinvent the world twice a day.

I use AVG myself..and Ive never had a problem..its never found a virus, but I use 98..so Im a little safer than most XP users.
I recommend it to other people who dont want to pay the ridiculous prices for Norton sytemworks 04.

Ive got a copy of NSW 04, and the sytem requirements for it were too intense for my machine to handle.
AVG, is not.

Nortons IS superior.....but.....by cost comparison......theres NO comparison.
AVG is FREE.

When a customer asks me, "should I be using virus protection?" ..my answer is ALWAYS YES.
A firewall too.....

Zonealarm is free, and pretty good....and easy to use.

Anti-Virus software is so easily afordable, or free.....why WOULDNT you use something?

I must admit that the last time i used linux extensively must have been at least 6 months ago, and I did have suspicions it would improve, however I have also seen recent versions at a glance and as far as i could see, not much has changed for the end user.
What you say about it being a flexible OS standard rather than a competitor for MS makes alot of sense and is probably part of the reason that i couldn't see its virtues for its flaws as an end user OS.
No doubt I have probably come across an interface and thought it very well designed, and not realised it was a variation of linux.
I quite like the idea of a CD only linux install too, and I very much follow your point on windows taking up a comparitavely large size considering what features it does come with (notepad, you get calculator too dont forget...)
I'm actually quite tempted to once again have a breif look into the Linux scene, purely out of curiosity, however, i have no intrest in running large multi-user computer networks and as such will most likely never invest a great deal of time in it. I'll prolly spend my limited time playing xBill or something...
Thankyou all for your sensible, well thought out comments, and i was glad to see a forum where angry non-thought out responses were non existant.

which desktop do you use? personnally I hate Gnome it's ugly even more ugly than windows fisherprice!!!
KDE with a bit of configuration is just gorgeous this being one of the main reasons I prefer the Suse distro over Redhat (redhat gnome centric, suse kde centric) also with Suse lots of the configuration stuff is bundled into the kde control panel ontop of desktop configuration...

And hay is anyone as nervous as I am about trainstations and cash machines? at least once every 3 months I see a windows error in/on these... does that make us feel safe?! :shock:

Knoppix is fab, and you can download the iso...

"the open source nature, in my opinion, makes it a security risk."
how so? having a community of several hundred thousand developers and hackers who look at the code to find bugs and make it fly, where as with closed source you have a few thousand developers and testers, and a handful of people outside with decompilers... where are you more likely to get people exploiting vulnerabilities?
And lets face it if it holds over 40% of the corporate server market think its secure enough (and remember these guys are looking for security holes and fixes in it to) and also the NSA have released their own fixes for it... it can't be to insecure...

but as a general desktop I don't think it will ever break the 15% mark and those will be corporate.

but as a general desktop I don't think it will ever break the 15% mark and those will be corporate.I wouldn't bet on it.
We need a nice interface for WINE. Also Microsoft has been condemned and will have to document its OS. When all is said and done, WINE will be totally integrated in Linux and one will not know whether he is running linux or Windows.
Then, Linux will prevail in the desktop because it is open. Just like the PC did prevail a few decades ago. We will then talk about the linux competion : Mandrake vs Suze vs Debian vs RedHat vs any linux distro. MS Windows will probably be another linux distro. And the monopoly will be broken. Halleluja.
I think the pope is going to bless Linux on the desktop.

Knoppix is fab, and you can download the iso...

"the open source nature, in my opinion, makes it a security risk."
how so? having a community of several hundred thousand developers and hackers who look at the code to find bugs and make it fly, where as with closed source you have a few thousand developers and testers, and a handful of people outside with decompilers... where are you more likely to get people exploiting vulnerabilities?
And lets face it if it holds over 40% of the corporate server market think its secure enough (and remember these guys are looking for security holes and fixes in it to) and also the NSA have released their own fixes for it... it can't be to insecure...

but as a general desktop I don't think it will ever break the 15% mark and those will be corporate.


When there are people who can find bugs there will be those who find them and don't tell people, then exploit them, this, I think, would be the case if Linux was more globally used.

I have a CD version of Linux, which can be useful.

There is another very good interface on Linux, I can't remember what it is called though, as I haven't used Linux in probably a year. I do remember it appearing very like a checkout interface.