NationStates Jolt Archive

My wife and I have no intention of having kids - ever. Yet we're regularly questioned by nosy people who seem to think our child-free lifestyle/position is strange or deviant.

While I have nothing against children or parents, it seems that there is a never-ending stream of "Breeder-ist" propaganda bombarding everyone, coming from families, advertisers, peers, churches etc. The serious effect of this is that far too many people who have absolutely no ability/means to properly raise children feel compelled to breed - with disastrous consequences to society.

I admire good parents who have a proven track record of raising good kids. Yet too many people seem to feel they deserve a Nobel Prize merely for making their own little crotch-nuggets, then lazily allow the poor things grow up into dysfunctional criminals or worse.

What's to be done?

Just curious:

Why did you two marry?

What do you hope to gain/produce from this marriage?

How does this marriage make the world a better place?

How long do you intend to stay married?

The propaganda machine is led by mothers everywhere.

I am hoping to get Married in the future and I want us to have Kids. Not from social pressure (I respond badly to that). Just because.

Jim SC

Just curious:

I find your questions very rudely nosy in that way that fundamentalists feel entitled to be. My wife and I do not have to justify or explain our love and marriage to you or to society - we only need to justify it to ourselves. Shame on you.

Just curious:

I find your questions very rudely nosy in that way that fundamentalists feel entitled to be. My wife and I do not have to justify or explain our love and marriage to you or to society - we only need to justify it to ourselves. Shame on you.... Well, you wanted an answer to your question, and to do so, I kinda have to know what your definition of marriage is...

I don't think those were nosy questions, those were questions that should be very easy to answer, and that you should have known the answer to before you got married...

And I thought you were talking about the computer game breed for the pc. I need to get out more, methinks...

Where's the "We're just really horny!" option on that poll?

Well I hate to agree with Ray! :wink:

A HUGE reason for marriage is the possiblility of children. When we pick or mates, we basically are following our instincts by look for qualities we would like passed on for children.

There are instances where you get married and find out children will not happen.

However, marriage for the heck of it?

I don't know. Would be an interesting study to see how long marriages last for people going in not wanting children.

Also, it depends on your age as well. I used to think the so called biological clock was humor but man it is not. My wife was hit with it. I am watching her friends and relatives get hit by it......

But as to a social agenda? Naahhhh. It's maily cultural and biolocially programmed.

Just curious:

I find your questions very rudely nosy in that way that fundamentalists feel entitled to be. My wife and I do not have to justify or explain our love and marriage to you or to society - we only need to justify it to ourselves. Shame on you.... Well, you wanted an answer to your question, and to do so, I kinda have to know what your definition of marriage is...

I don't think those were nosy questions, those were questions that should be very easy to answer, and that you should have known the answer to before you got married...

You just don't get it do you? My question was solely about whether or not people feel pressured to have kids - if I was going to discuss the purpose & definition of marriage, I would have designed the thread around that topic. OF COURSE my wife & I defined and thought-through what our marriage was going to be "about", but that's our business and definitely not yours or society's.

(DP)

Also, it depends on your age as well. I used to think the so called biological clock was humor but man it is not. My wife was hit with it. I am watching her friends and relatives get hit by it......

No it is certainly not a joke. It's almost scary, but exciting too.

damn server

I'm not sure I'd say it's social propoganda, necessarily. There is an undeniable biological pressure to pass genes on to the next generation, but that is really more of a population thing and not so much an individual, personalized pressure.

I think there is certainly a social convention that, once you hit a certain age, you should "settle down" and have kids. However, more and more people are making the same choice as you, Garaj. I have many married friends who either don't want children or are unsure and perfectly happy with a dog at present.

Also, I think it depends on education level and income bracket.

Finally, I do think there is a certain commercial pressure to have children, at least in the US. Not sure how it is in other countries (and I would be very interested to hear), but advertisers and companies realize that unless the current generation breeds, their going to see profit loss. Plus, kids need things and need them more frequently than the average adult and the average adult is more likely to shell out the cash for kids. Therefore, it is to the commercial entities benefit if there are more children and I think there is an appreciable skew in that regard.

And yes, Raysia, your questions were indeed rude and transparently directed. Then again, they usually are, so I don't know why anyone was surprised.

No post mode specified. Thanks for telling me.

How does this marriage make the world a better place?

How long do you intend to stay married?

Those are rather bizarre questions. Why would marriage have to make the world a better place? The second question is valid, but in context it sounds kind of insulting (I could be reading too much into that, though.)

I know several married couples, religious ones even, that choose not to have children.

I have no real problem with that.

They love each other and are great members of the community, and are great friends to their neighbors.

All I am asking is simply what the purpose of YOUR marriage is, if not for the foundation of a family?

I know several married couples, religious ones even, that choose not to have children.

I have no real problem with that.

They love each other and are great members of the community, and are great friends to their neighbors.

All I am asking is simply what the purpose of YOUR marriage is, if not for the foundation of a family?

A) If you really don't have a problem with it, then why's it of interest to you?

B) Family is a very elastic term, you know. Garaj marrying his wife is indeed a foundation for his family. Are you suggesting it's not a family till there's at least one child?

Just curious:

I find your questions very rudely nosy in that way that fundamentalists feel entitled to be. My wife and I do not have to justify or explain our love and marriage to you or to society - we only need to justify it to ourselves. Shame on you.... Well, you wanted an answer to your question, and to do so, I kinda have to know what your definition of marriage is...

I don't think those were nosy questions, those were questions that should be very easy to answer, and that you should have known the answer to before you got married...

You just don't get it do you? My question was solely about whether or not people feel pressured to have kids - if I was going to discuss the purpose & definition of marriage, I would have designed the thread around that topic. OF COURSE my wife & I defined and thought-through what our marriage was going to be "about", but that's our business and definitely not yours or society's.I think Ray's just asking to better understand, not to be nosy or offensive. No need to get indignent, just a search for understanding.

I know several married couples, religious ones even, that choose not to have children.

I have no real problem with that.

They love each other and are great members of the community, and are great friends to their neighbors.

All I am asking is simply what the purpose of YOUR marriage is, if not for the foundation of a family?

A) If you really don't have a problem with it, then why's it of interest to you?

B) Family is a very elastic term, you know. Garaj marrying his wife is indeed a foundation for his family. Are you suggesting it's not a family till there's at least one child?The purpose of those questions was not to criticize him, merely to find out what HIS definitions of marriage and family are, and why he chose to get married if not for kids.

I know several married couples, religious ones even, that choose not to have children.

I have no real problem with that.

They love each other and are great members of the community, and are great friends to their neighbors.

All I am asking is simply what the purpose of YOUR marriage is, if not for the foundation of a family?

A) If you really don't have a problem with it, then why's it of interest to you?

B) Family is a very elastic term, you know. Garaj marrying his wife is indeed a foundation for his family. Are you suggesting it's not a family till there's at least one child?The purpose of those questions was not to criticize him, merely to find out what HIS definitions of marriage and family are, and why he chose to get married if not for kids.

Does it matter? You don't need to know what he thinks about marriage to answer the question. What he wants to know is if there is societal pressure on married couples to have children.

I personally haven't noticed any such pressure, though I'm not married.

I think Ray's just asking to better understand, not to be nosy or offensive. No need to get indignent, just a search for understanding.

Perhaps. It just seems that when Raysia goes searching for "better understanding," someone is about to get smacked around with fundamentalist, right-wing claptrap. Therefore, it seems best to treat anything he says with a healthy suspicion until proof to the contrary is provided. In the case of these particular questions, they do not seem to relate to the initial question posed by Garaj, which was simply is there a pressure to have children.

If this was a sincere desire for deeper understanding, I apologize for my assumptions but would like to point out that I'm not the only one who made them and perhaps that's telling in and of itself.

The purpose of those questions was not to criticize him, merely to find out what HIS definitions of marriage and family are, and why he chose to get married if not for kids.

Tell ya what: you open a new thread entitled something like "Is the main purpose of marriage to have children, or can it have some other equally valuable purpose?", and I'll contribute to that. (Or since there's probably already an old thread on that topic, just bump it up)

However, marriage for the heck of it?

I don't know. Would be an interesting study to see how long marriages last for people going in not wanting children.


so any marriage that doesn't involve children is "just for the heck of it?"

lovely.

i don't even intend to have children, and i don't think that will in any way weaken my future marriage. if anything it might make it stronger, since our union will only be about the two of us and not about fulfilling some reproductive goal.

and to answer the main question of the thread, i have felt TONS of pressure to have children. whenever i admit to curious people that i don't plan to have babies they react with pity and horror, and immediately try to tell me about how great babies are. i am good with children, and have a younger brother 10 years my junior who i am crazy about, and i certainly don't hate children or anything like that. i simply feel no desire to have babies of my own, yet very few people are able to accept that. it's quite annoying, since i am not trying to convince them to be like me.

and here are some stats related to divorce and children. i couldn't find much information specifying whether the couple never INTENDED to have children, but there is lots of data on how well families stay together based on if they have or have not produced children...

"Half of all children will witness the breakup of a parent's marriage. Of these, close to half will also see the breakup of a parent's second marriage."
Furstenberg, Peterson, Nord, and Zill, "Life Course," 656ff.

"Ten percent of children of divorce will go on to witness three or more family breakups."
Peterson, "Marital Disruption," 5. Cited on page76 ofThe Abolition of Marriage, by Maggie Gallagher

More children are forced into single-parent families by divorce than by being born to a teenage mother. More than half of divorces involve parents of minor children. Over the past ten years, more than 114,000 children have experienced their parents' divorce. A study of adult women in 1987 found that those who had been younger than 16 when their parents divorced were about 60% more likely to be divorced or separated themselves at the time of the study.

An poll from 1997 asked US adults whether they would stay in a loveless marriage simply for the sake of existing children. Less than half said they would do so.

some UK stats:

Marriages/year 331.2K/year
Divorces/year 173.6K/year
Divorces with children (< 16)/year 99.55K/year
Probability of divorce 41%
Total children (<16) in married families 9M

Note that more than half of UK divorces are in marriages that have already produced children who are still under 16.

I know several married couples, religious ones even, that choose not to have children.

I have no real problem with that.

They love each other and are great members of the community, and are great friends to their neighbors.

All I am asking is simply what the purpose of YOUR marriage is, if not for the foundation of a family?

A) If you really don't have a problem with it, then why's it of interest to you?

B) Family is a very elastic term, you know. Garaj marrying his wife is indeed a foundation for his family. Are you suggesting it's not a family till there's at least one child?The purpose of those questions was not to criticize him, merely to find out what HIS definitions of marriage and family are, and why he chose to get married if not for kids.

Mariage is devotion and an absolute vow between two poeple.

Family is you and everyone that falls under the "love ones" category.

Jim

I love you Roan.

Mariage is devotion and an absolute vow between two poeple.

Family is you and everyone that falls under the "love ones" category.


Amen...

If you're on a family farm, there will be pressure to have kids.

If you're in a college town, in a professional circle of friends, there will be pressure to not have kids; they are considered habitat polluting, resource consuming vermin.
and an inconvenient strain on the lifestyle and bank account

According to Urban Dictionary, "Breeder" is a derogatory term. Here's an excerpt.


Urban Dictionary is a slang dictionary with your definitions. Define your world.

18 definitions of breeder.

Record your pronunciation
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Breeder
21 votes

1: slang term used by some childfree people for one who has a child and/or has many after that, refuses to discipline the child/ren, thinks the sun rises and sets for their child/ren, look down upon people who do not have children, and are in general very selfish and greedy when it comes to their whims and those of their child/ren, especially if they can use their parenthood status or their children as an excuse to get their way. A female breeder is commonly called a moo, and a male breeder a duh.
2: slang term used by people of homosexual persuasion to refer to heterosexual couples, who have a significantly higher risk of contributing to the population increase than the homosexuals do.

"Can you believe the nerve of those breeders? They come in to a nice restaurant and proceed to sit by and watch while their progeny shriek and run all over the place, and then let the children make a huge mess and do not even tip the waitstaff. Disgusting..."

Source: Child Hatter, May 13, 2003
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Are you on Friendster?: Befriend Urban Dictionary (first name UrbanDictionary, last name com)Breeder
16 votes

A hetrosexual person ~
Derogatory term used by the homosexual community(esp.lesbians)to define their straight counterparts.

I'm not going in that bar its full of breeders. It'll be full of blokes trying it on with me!

Source: beat combo, May 25, 2003
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Breeder
15 votes

Ppl who turn up at your house with children and allow them to write all over your books, wall coverings etc. This happens because they are jealous of your child free lifestyle which allows you to go out mid week and take long romantic weekends away while they are stuck at home trying to find a child minder/doing maths homework etc.

O feck! Here comes the breeders, hide everything of any value!

Source: dont do it!, Jun 5, 2003
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PalmerCash.com - Say What?: Hey Hipster Get Your Crazy Random T-Shirt Nowbreeder
13 votes

A supposedly offensive term for a heterosexual. Personally, I just can't be offended by it.

Hey, I was just called a breeder. Wonder if he knows it makes no difference to me?

Source: tradesman, Jul 11, 2003
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breeder
13 votes

any individual beer-swilling member, of the subset of society who burp out more progeny than can comfortably be accomodated in thier double-wide!

Billie-ray and Bobby-Sue are such breeders.

Source: anonymous, Mar 29, 2003
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CollegeHumor.com: Funny stuff every dayBreeder
11 votes

n~ (offensive) A heterosexual person. One who breeds with members of the opposite sex.

see also: trailer trash, homophobe

Ugh! What's that smell? Is this a breeder bar? It reeks of CK one in here.

Source: Jeff Stryker, Apr 1, 2003
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breeder
7 votes

1. derogatory term to describe heterosexuals, usually when engaged in an extended relationship (eg. marriage) with a partner of the opposite sex.
2. Derogatory term used by inner city dwellers (of ANY sexual inclination) to define inhabitants of the suburbs who subscribe to - and are enslaved by - their desire to procreate.

example - im going out to breedersville on the weekend to visit my sister.

(breedersville - read 'suburbs')

Source: gT>>, Jul 29, 2003
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Advertise at Urban Dictionary: promote your web site right here for $5Breeder
23 votes

f*cking breeders.Go and be straight somewhere else!


Source: vortex-construction, May 28, 2003
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Breeder
4 votes

Those people who brought your ass into the world.

"Gee honey, we just had a bouncing baby (boy or girl)"

Source: Shilia HeteroMom, Aug 28, 2003
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Family Guy T-shirt Sale at WackyPlanet.com: Use Coupon Code "Urban" for an xtra 10% off!breeder
6 votes

Derogatory term used by heterophobic gay militants to try to demean straight people. Unsuccessfully.

I am a breeder, my twin is a faeh gotte

When people ask if we have kids and I say no, responses range from "Oh, I'm sorry" to "who's going to look after you when you are old?".
When I met my husband at the age of 23, he asked if I wanted children. I answered honestly -"no". I needn't have been worried that he would no longer be interested in me for that reason as he didn't want any either.
We have been together for 20 years this May. :D
My "biological clock" has failed to kick in. :wink:

Any society which doesn't reproduce will not long survive, so of course there's a cultural imperative to have children. This societal pressure is present in every nation, and can be evidenced by the explosive population growth of the Third World. When modern medical and agricultural technologies met the old way of producing as many children as possible (necessary to ensure the survival of humanity/your tribe/nation/what have you), well, we know what happened... It is no longer necessary in the First World for everyone to have as many children as possible, but deeply ingrained biological and societal pressures to reproduce won't just fade away.

(bump)

Here there is that whole 'aging population' dealy, but the social coercion is not "you MUST have children" but "Please have kids?" more than that though, there are large economic pressures against having children.

That being said, I'm definatly one for having children eventually. Biological urges, though; I just want to.

Any society which doesn't reproduce will not long survive, so of course there's a cultural imperative to have children. This societal pressure is present in every nation, and can be evidenced by the explosive population growth of the Third World. When modern medical and agricultural technologies met the old way of producing as many children as possible (necessary to ensure the survival of humanity/your tribe/nation/what have you), well, we know what happened... It is no longer necessary in the First World for everyone to have as many children as possible, but deeply ingrained biological and societal pressures to reproduce won't just fade away.

I'm amazed it took 2 pages until someone said this. Well said.

Any society which doesn't reproduce will not long survive, so of course there's a cultural imperative to have children.

And in today's world, if we cannot curtail our reproduction we will not survive either. We need to act on replacing outdated old survival imperatives with realisic modern ones. We _can_ do this if survival is what we really want.

Don't worry about Ray, he doesn't think it's a marriage unless it's two heterosexual WASPS planning on breeding until the cows come home.

As for the question at hand, I feel more societal pressure to *not* have kids right now than to have it. (This may have to do with the fact that I am a grad student and not yet married). However, I feel plenty of biological pressure to have kids. I know that I want children someday and I nearly start crying every time I see a kid do something cute. Commercials are the worst LOL.

I've heard and felt a lot of pressure to have children. Society likes to paint it as a necessity of life; you get married, have children, move into a medium-szed suburban house and work til you retire. Well, not everyone feels that way. I've no interest in having children and it irritates me that when I say this people respond with statements like< "you'll change your mind soon."

I nearly start crying every time I see a kid do something cute. Commercials are the worst LOL.

And you don't think those commercials are a big part of the propaganda? Their purpose is to manipulate peoples' emotions - don't be suckered by them...

I nearly start crying every time I see a kid do something cute. Commercials are the worst LOL.

And you don't think those commercials are a big part of the propaganda? Their purpose is to manipulate peoples' emotions - don't be suckered by them...

The commercials I'm talking about aren't about having kids. Besides, I was referring to the biological pressures to have children - every time I see a kid my tummy flutters and every time they do something cute (in person, on TV, in a book, etc) I'm almost in tears. It has nothing to do with society unless I should blame society for there being children around - it has to do with hormones.

Meanwhile, societal pressures tell me absolutely to not have children, at least not yet.

I nearly start crying every time I see a kid do something cute. Commercials are the worst LOL.

And you don't think those commercials are a big part of the propaganda? Their purpose is to manipulate peoples' emotions - don't be suckered by them...

If I thought my kids would be like the ones in commercials, especially Saturday morning's, or Nickelodeon's, I'd perish from the thought. Yuk!

A lot of the pressure to breed comes from parents themselves. My girlfriend's mom will pretty much not be satisfied unless my girlfriend and I are eventually married with children...and though the two of us have discussed adoption, that isn't good enough for her either; they have to be our OWN children. There's a lot of social convention against both being childless and adopting; if you don't have your own children, you're incomplete.

There's a lot of social convention against both being childless and adopting; if you don't have your own children, you're incomplete.

Yeah, and look at all the kids who desperately *need* to be adopted but aren't because of this idiotic idea that everybody must breed their own "flesh & blood". The world can't even take care of the children it already has, yet we keep making millions more of them. :(