NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&u=/afp/20040410/pl_afp/us_iraq_congress&printer=1


Thirteen of the most powerful opposition US senators on Friday released a letter to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld asking to explain the role of civilian contractors in Iraq

It said contractors -- often ex-soldiers -- operate in a fashion similar to special forces, but they are not under US military control and not subject to rules governing the conduct of American forces.

In a letter to Rumsfeld dated April 8 -- but released Friday -- the senators expressed concern about "private armies operating outside the control of governmental authority."

I remember a few weeks ago I told everyone on this forum that Blackwater was a black-ops group that operated outside of the "checks and balances" system of the government... I remember laying out the facts that these so-called "civilian contractors" were in reality special forces mercenaries... I remember a Mod and several posters mocking me, dispite the staggering evidence...

I just wonder how many people will read this and WAKE UP!

Folks, you're being lied to and keeping your head in the sand isn't the answer!

I remember a few weeks ago I told everyone on this forum that Blackwater was a black-ops group that operated outside of the "checks and balances" system of the government... I remember laying out the facts that these so-called "civilian contractors" were in reality special forces mercenaries... I remember a Mod and several posters mocking me, dispite the staggering evidence...

I just wonder how many people will read this and WAKE UP!

Folks, you're being lied to and keeping your head in the sand isn't the answer!

People like to remain ignorant.

ELITE MILITARY? COME ON!!!!

ELITE MILITARY? COME ON!!!!

obviously you've failed yourself by reamining ignorant...


People like to remain ignorant.

perhaps, but now they have no excuse... a few weeks ago I was asking them look at the evidence and draw their own conclusions (a difficult task for the ritalin generation)

This time around I just want them to look at the evidence...

ELITE MILITARY? COME ON!!!!

What's wrong with that statement? They are usually ex-US special forces; widely regarded as elite while in their units. At the very least they are veteran members of our conventional forces.

A highly trained infantry force made from a hodge-podge of units might not have the unit cohesion of a SEAL team, but still, they would be rightfully called elite.

A highly trained infantry force made from a hodge-podge of units might not have the unit cohesion of a SEAL team, but still, they would be rightfully called elite.

Actually, these guys have a contract from the Pentagon to train the Navy SEALs!

Of the four "civilian contractors" mutilated in Fallujah, Three were Navy SEALs and the other was Delta Force...

These guys aren't getting paid 3-to-4X the pay of special forces to deliver pizzas -- these guys are out doing black-ops all over the world (including inside the US)

I would really love to see the evidence, if you wouldn't mind posting it again or giving me a link.

I've known about this for a while. There was even a movie:
http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/megaforce.jpg




sorry, I'll go....

Well, I can see quite a few places were that might be useful. Propaganda to strengthen the US war effort in Iraq by bucking up civilian morale on the homefront. Or are we talking about dealing with drug dealers and gang bangers while winning hearts and minds by providing medical and other assistance? :) It's not a black op, it's a training program. :)

Emperor Pro-Tem "Big D"

Actually, these guys have a contract from the Pentagon to train the Navy SEALs!

Of the four "civilian contractors" mutilated in Fallujah, Three were Navy SEALs and the other was Delta Force...

These guys aren't getting paid 3-to-4X the pay of special forces to deliver pizzas -- these guys are out doing black-ops all over the world (including inside the US)

Oh I know that (I've read many of your posts stating as much), but I was simply stating that you can't slap a bunch of random experts together an just expect them to operate like a well-oiled machine when in combat. It MIGHT happen, but you can't expect it really.

I would really love to see the evidence, if you wouldn't mind posting it again or giving me a link.

They are called Blackwater, they are made of Navy SEALs and Army Rangers - Delta Force...
they are supposedly a "private company" even though they are paid by the Penatgon (tax payers) to train the Navy SEALs, and send mercenaries all around the globe... they are also paid by the Homeland Security Dept. (tax payers) to train and advise (command) different state forces... that's right, they are a military that operates at home and abroad -- removed from congress' checks and balances system! They are secret-police/black-ops agents that are exempt from the constitution... they are a silver bullet to liberty!

Now, ABCBSmsNBCNNFoxNews-ReutersAOLTIMEWARNER likes to call these guys "civilian contractors" and "security consultants" and the major media also likes to pretend that they were in Fallujah to protect "food shipments" -- but the Pentagon isn't paying these guys mega-salaries to deliver pizzas! These are Navy SEALs!!! They were in Fallujah finding targets for the next weeks offense! That's what Navy SEALs do... only problem is that if the media pokes its nose into the Pentagon and figures out that these guys are black-ops then people all over America might realize that it's a bad thing to put the same black-ops guys in charge of Homeland Security (what, did you think they were going to trust the powers of martial law with just anybody?)

So, write your congressman and your State's Homeland Security Dept. director and tell them to get Blackwater the hell out of civilian law enforcement!


http://blackwaterusa.com/

"Our clients include federal law enforcement agencies, the Department of Defense, Department of State, and Department of Transportation, local and state entities from around the country, multi-national corporations, and friendly nations from all over the globe.

We customize and execute solutions for our clients to help keep them at the level of readiness required to meet today's law enforcement, homeland security, and defense challenges. "


http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/


Blackwater Security Consulting has it roots in the Special Operations community and continues to sustain the skills that have been acquired over the years as effective tools that will support both national and commercial objectives


http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=68304&ran=154967


“Nobody knows anything about Blackwater,” Susan Johnson, Currituck County sheriff, said Wednesday. “They don’t bring a lot of attention to themselves.”

"Other contracts are classified so that even the government doesn’t know what the company is doing for one of its agencies, said Blackwater USA president Gary Jackson. "


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/02/1080544691675.html


"It also received a five-year navy contract in 2002 worth nearly $US36 million ($47 million) to train navy personnel in force protection, shipboard security, search-and-seizure techniques and armed sentry duties, Pentagon officials said."


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/04/weekinreview/04glan.html?ex=1081659600&en=ca2bffa65bef3bdd&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE


"And yearly salaries - which insiders say can range anywhere from $70,000 to $250,000 - are set high enough to compensate the best in the business."



I would really love to see the evidence, if you wouldn't mind posting it again or giving me a link.
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136551&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

This is a link to the original thread: notice the sheeples knee-jerk reaction to call me a kook and ignore the evidence... flash forward to today when 13 senators are saying basically the samething I was!!

Well, I can see quite a few places were that might be useful.

Oh, yeah... I can see quit a few as well

Perhaps your not familiar with the constitution, but it clearly states that Congress will regulate the military -- not the Pentagon. You see, there are reasons for "checks and balances" the separation of powers is based on the realization that absolut power corrupts absolutly...

You can't have a private military that operates on tax dollars (and international drug money) under the Penatagon and removed from the constitution...

Now, it gets worse... not only does this "security firm" operate as a black-ops military removed from the regulatory system of "we, the people" it also operates in civilian law! That's right, the Pentagon is trying to pass these jack-boot goons off as non-military even thought they are all Navy SEALs and Army Ranger-Delta Force (they even train the Navy SEALs)
So, while the Military is barred from operating domestically (sans extreme circumstances and national emergencies) Blackwater can operate as easily inside America as they can in Iraq...

They are not a "private company" ... they are the SS of the Military-Industraial complex -- they are a cancer eating away the constitution of the United States and killing away our liberties!

Blackwater operates domestically and abroad, they don't answer to any elected official, they have no concern for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they will not hesitate to kick in your door and take your guns...

Folks, this is the latest step in plot against America... there aren't many steps left... soon, everyone of us will have to answer for ourselves where we stand: The second American Civil War is coming and Blackwater will act as the Imperial Guard of the Federalist Empire... will you stand tall as a Patriotic American and defend your Liberty at any cost, or will you surrender to their Soviet Slave System... will you hand over your guns and take the micro-chip implant...

The New World Order is unable to operate in stealth-mode any longer... when the Beast rears its head, will you bow to it? Will you abandon your heritage and culture of freedom and liberty for their Pyramid Cult? Will you accept their lies and believe that War is Peace, that Ignorance is Strength, and the Freedom is Slavery? Will you work in the labor camps thinking that it will earn your freedom?

I know that I will not turn my back on America!
Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death!

Fellow Patriots, a Dark Age is approaching us -- the Federalist Empire is ready to act.... are you?

ELITE MILITARY? COME ON!!!!

Be careful.. you might just get your wish: these same Blackwater guys work fot the Homeland Security Dept.

Maybe the real question is: can we put these guys on the borders after we're done with Iraq, or would they consider themselves overqualified? We've already got civilian militias doing the job in spots, so we might as well go whole-hog on it, since it's the only thing that has worked. :wink:

Maybe the real question is: can we put these guys on the borders after we're done with Iraq, or would they consider themselves overqualified? We've already got civilian militias doing the job in spots, so we might as well go whole-hog on it, since it's the only thing that has worked. :wink:

Protecting our Boarder with Mexico (not too worried about the Socialist Canadians) is one thing, but do you really want Black-ops guys functioning in America? These guys train the Navy SEALs, they shouldn't be unleashed on the American public!

Irregardless of what we think or do this group will exist anyway. At least if they are in the public eye maybe they might remain under a little scrutiny and therefore control?

Irregardless of what we think or do this group will exist anyway. At least if they are in the public eye maybe they might remain under a little scrutiny and therefore control?

NO! We need to act fast to destroy the legitamcy before it's too late... you see, they are the Black-ops guys that will quell the domestic uprisings when the Homeland Security goes to code RED and sets up martial law... the threat is that a "private" company and not the State owned National Guard will delegate power... thus, the plan is to use Blackwater to topple the power of individual states to pave the way for a Federalist Empire...

Best to remove the cancer than to "live" with it!

Ok, what can I do about it?

Actually, being British there's very little i can do about it i suspect. But i'd like to hear your thoughts..

Irregardless of what we think or do this group will exist anyway. At least if they are in the public eye maybe they might remain under a little scrutiny and therefore control?

NO! We need to act fast to destroy the legitamcy before it's too late... you see, they are the Black-ops guys that will quell the domestic uprisings when the Homeland Security goes to code RED and sets up martial law... the threat is that a "private" company and not the State owned National Guard will delegate power... thus, the plan is to use Blackwater to topple the power of individual states to pave the way for a Federalist Empire...

Best to remove the cancer than to "live" with it!

Whewwww..someone has been watching to many Oliver Stone movies haven't we?....There are literally dozens of national and international security firms that are contracted out by international companies. It's nothing strange that these firms might also contract out to a nation's government to perform services that might be cheaper as far as overall cost then using their own.

Now..Blackwater may have indeed been begun by Spec-op people, but not all of their personnel are even former military...

Your conspiracy theories are better suited for a Tom Clancy novel

Irregardless of what we think or do this group will exist anyway. At least if they are in the public eye maybe they might remain under a little scrutiny and therefore control?

NO! We need to act fast to destroy the legitamcy before it's too late... you see, they are the Black-ops guys that will quell the domestic uprisings when the Homeland Security goes to code RED and sets up martial law... the threat is that a "private" company and not the State owned National Guard will delegate power... thus, the plan is to use Blackwater to topple the power of individual states to pave the way for a Federalist Empire...

Best to remove the cancer than to "live" with it!

Whewwww..someone has been watching to many Oliver Stone movies haven't we?....There are literally dozens of national and international security firms that are contracted out by international companies. It's nothing strange that these firms might also contract out to a nation's government to perform services that might be cheaper as far as overall cost then using their own.

Now..Blackwater may have indeed been begun by Spec-op people, but not all of their personnel are even former military...

Your conspiracy theories are better suited for a Tom Clancy novel

You really don't see a problem with "outsourcing" a war?
These guys are not just providing a security service, like nightwatchmen or security guards - they are actively engaged in a war zone. And they are not "visible" as government forces.
I remember the catch-cry from the days of Vietnam of "plausible deniability" - that's exactly what these guys provide to any government, and in bucketloads.
The US taxpayer, indeed the rest of the world, should know who employs them, for what, under what terms and conditions, to whom are they answerable, and what exactly are their "rules of engagement" - seems very recently that you were saying how the "rules of engagement" as applied to US forces meant that civilian casualities were minimised. If these guys are not subject to the same rules, under what conditions do they operate?
The problem with mercenaries is that you have to pay them to fight, they are always open to a better offer, and often you have to pay them even more to stop fighting.
They should have no place in Iraq, period.

Irregardless of what we think or do this group will exist anyway. At least if they are in the public eye maybe they might remain under a little scrutiny and therefore control?

NO! We need to act fast to destroy the legitamcy before it's too late... you see, they are the Black-ops guys that will quell the domestic uprisings when the Homeland Security goes to code RED and sets up martial law... the threat is that a "private" company and not the State owned National Guard will delegate power... thus, the plan is to use Blackwater to topple the power of individual states to pave the way for a Federalist Empire...

Best to remove the cancer than to "live" with it!

Whewwww..someone has been watching to many Oliver Stone movies haven't we?....There are literally dozens of national and international security firms that are contracted out by international companies. It's nothing strange that these firms might also contract out to a nation's government to perform services that might be cheaper as far as overall cost then using their own.

Now..Blackwater may have indeed been begun by Spec-op people, but not all of their personnel are even former military...

Your conspiracy theories are better suited for a Tom Clancy novel

You really don't see a problem with "outsourcing" a war?
These guys are not just providing a security service, like nightwatchmen or security guards - they are actively engaged in a war zone. And they are not "visible" as government forces.
I remember the catch-cry from the days of Vietnam of "plausible deniability" - that's exactly what these guys provide to any government, and in bucketloads.
The US taxpayer, indeed the rest of the world, should know who employs them, for what, under what terms and conditions, to whom are they answerable, and what exactly are their "rules of engagement" - seems very recently that you were saying how the "rules of engagement" as applied to US forces meant that civilian casualities were minimised. If these guys are not subject to the same rules, under what conditions do they operate?
The problem with mercenaries is that you have to pay them to fight, they are always open to a better offer, and often you have to pay them even more to stop fighting.
They should have no place in Iraq, period.

Not met to many mercernaries have you?....Mercenaries by their very nature are very cautious with their people..their personnel and expertise are all they have to sell..dead mercernaries..security people..call them what you will but they can hardly afford to actively engage in combat.

Blackwater personnel in Iraq have not been contracted by the Pentagon for combat operations in Iraq...if you want to research it..you'll find they have been contracted out by various companies and NGO's for security of everything from their vehicles..to supply depots..construction sites..etc..

Usage of security/mercernaries are nothing new in a warzone..Perot uses them exclusively in his overseas business facilities, and when the hostages were taken in Iran in 79, some of Perot's people were taken in a separate action..he personally paid for a security element to locate, free, and extract his people..which they did successfully.

Japanese kieritsus routinely have paramilitary or military expertised members in their security elements or have contracted out for such services...

Japanese kieritsus routinely have paramilitary or military expertised members in their security elements or have contracted out for such services...

oh... well that changes everything

There you have it, the Japanese Kieritsus employ paramilitary types -- that means Blackwater operates within the boundaries of the Constitution of the United States and the Posse Comitatus Act...

See, because Perot used them in Iran, that means that it is okay for the Pentagon to remove Congress from the whole "checks and balances" system by creating an army that doesn't answer to them.

I'm sure that just because over 10% of the senate is distressed about the threat of "special forces" type mercenaries making up "private amries" that operate "outside of the government" -- I'm sure they're just exaggerating!

Thank you for showing me the light Slushy -- your logic is amazing!!

Japanese kieritsus routinely have paramilitary or military expertised members in their security elements or have contracted out for such services...

oh... well that changes everything

There you have it, the Japanese Kieritsus employ paramilitary types -- that means Blackwater operates within the boundaries of the Constitution of the United States and the Posse Comitatus Act...

See, because Perot used them in Iran, that means that it is okay for the Pentagon to remove Congress from the whole "checks and balances" system by creating an army that doesn't answer to them.

I'm sure that just because over 10% of the senate is distressed about the threat of "special forces" type mercenaries making up "private amries" that operate "outside of the government" -- I'm sure they're just exaggerating!

Thank you for showing me the light Slushy -- your logic is amazing!!


And your fantasies are doing...what?...You've yet to prove that the Pentagon or the Dept of Defense of the United States has contracted mercernaries for combat operations in the Republic of Iraq....until you can do that...all you're doing is just fantasizing to support your statements

And your fantasies are doing...what?...You've yet to prove that the Pentagon or the Dept of Defense of the United States has contracted mercernaries for combat operations in the Republic of Iraq....until you can do that...all you're doing is just fantasizing to support your statements

Fantasy?

okay, do yourself a favor and click the link I provided at the very start of this page...

ah hell, I'll repost it for you here: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&u=/afp/20040410/pl_afp/us_iraq_congress&printer=1

all you're doing is just fantasizing to support your statements

Just keep telling yourself:

WAR is PEACE
IGNORANCE is STRENGTH
FREEDOM is SLAVERY

I honestly don't care...but where can I sigh up.

See, because Perot used them in Iran, that means that it is okay for the Pentagon to remove Congress from the whole "checks and balances" system by creating an army that doesn't answer to them.


Actually, Congress still very much has control of the whole "checks and balances" issue, because Congress directly determines the Pentagon's budget. The next time that the Pentagon's budget comes up for review, they can deny them the funds for the hiring of these "mercenaries".

Actually, Congress still very much has control of the whole "checks and balances" issue, because Congress directly determines the Pentagon's budget. The next time that the Pentagon's budget comes up for review, they can deny them the funds for the hiring of these "mercenaries".

I'm afraid it just isn't that simple.

The DoD can't account for over a Trillion dollars, and that is after you consider all of those 100$ toliet seats they buy...

http://www.whereisthemoney.org/

They can refuse to fund the mercenary program all they want, but unless Congress explicitly stands-up on a legal basis then the Pentagon can easily allocate the funds themselves...

See, because Perot used them in Iran, that means that it is okay for the Pentagon to remove Congress from the whole "checks and balances" system by creating an army that doesn't answer to them.


Actually, Congress still very much has control of the whole "checks and balances" issue, because Congress directly determines the Pentagon's budget. The next time that the Pentagon's budget comes up for review, they can deny them the funds for the hiring of these "mercenaries".

Exactly. That's why we need an all-civilian, NRA-type organization to fund the mercenaries. Members of over 5 years would meet each year and vote for a chairman, approve initiatives, get status reports, etc. :wink:

Exactly. That's why we need an all-civilian, NRA-type organization to fund the mercenaries. Members of over 5 years would meet each year and vote for a chairman, approve initiatives, get status reports, etc. :wink:

yes, and if you're a Militi-type then you should know that these guys are mercenary units for the Homeland Security Dept... that means they are supere-Feds -- BATF on steroids!! These guys are not your friends... they are fascist and hold no qualms with running the same Black operations in the US as they do everywhere else in the world!

Actually, Congress still very much has control of the whole "checks and balances" issue, because Congress directly determines the Pentagon's budget. The next time that the Pentagon's budget comes up for review, they can deny them the funds for the hiring of these "mercenaries".

I'm afraid it just isn't that simple.

The DoD can't account for over a Trillion dollars, and that is after you consider all of those 100$ toliet seats they buy...

http://www.whereisthemoney.org/

They can refuse to fund the mercenary program all they want, but unless Congress explicitly stands-up on a legal basis then the Pentagon can easily allocate the funds themselves...

They can threaten across-the-boards funding cuts unless the Pentagon removes the mercenary-hiring program. Believe me, if the Pentagon's faced with the choice to eliminate the mercenary program or face 50%-75% cuts in all their funding, they'll dump the program super-fast. The only problem is convincing a majority of the members of Congress that this is an important enough issue to butt heads with the DoD over.

They can threaten across-the-boards funding cuts unless the Pentagon removes the mercenary-hiring program. Believe me, if the Pentagon's faced with the choice to eliminate the mercenary program or face 50%-75% cuts in all their funding, they'll dump the program super-fast. The only problem is convincing a majority of the members of Congress that this is an important enough issue to butt heads with the DoD over.

Ah, but in the age of terrorism I think cutting the Pentagon budget by 75% (although a good idea) would be a hard sell...

I think it would be better if Congress just stood-up and called the Pentagon on their loop-hole: these black-op guys are not "civilian contractors" and they shouldn't be allowed to run rampant inside the US.

And your fantasies are doing...what?...You've yet to prove that the Pentagon or the Dept of Defense of the United States has contracted mercernaries for combat operations in the Republic of Iraq....until you can do that...all you're doing is just fantasizing to support your statements

Fantasy?

okay, do yourself a favor and click the link I provided at the very start of this page...

ah hell, I'll repost it for you here: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&u=/afp/20040410/pl_afp/us_iraq_congress&printer=1

Ok...to be fair and balanced...I read the link..and I hate to be a downer but nowhere in there did I read anything regarding Defense Dept contracting mercenaries in the form of Blackwater or any other company to perform combat operations in the Republic of Iraq. Now....I was military for years..even spent a tour up in DC with Headquarters Marine Corps...we never do anything without an order backing any action. Now..if you'll please identify for me the Dept of Defense contract, you can probably request thru the Freedom of Information Act the specific one you must be referrring to, the one that stipulates to using Blackwater in combat operations.

Ok...to be fair and balanced...I read the link..and I hate to be a downer but nowhere in there did I read anything regarding Defense Dept contracting mercenaries in the form of Blackwater or any other company to perform combat operations in the Republic of Iraq.

okay... so you can't read, or think

Rumsfeld asked to explain role of private security contractors in Iraq

It said contractors -- often ex-soldiers -- operate in a fashion similar to special forces


"In the context of Iraq, unless these forces are properly screened by United States authorities and are required to operate under clear guidelines and appropriate supervision, their presence will contribute to Iraqi resentment," the letter said.

Just in case you missed it -- The Senators want to why these so-called "civilian contractors" are operating like Special-ops guys in Iraq!!

Now....I was military for years..even spent a tour up in DC with Headquarters Marine Corps...we never do anything without an order backing any action.

so, when you lick the boot -- does is turn your tounge black?

Now..if you'll please identify for me the Dept of Defense contract, you can probably request thru the Freedom of Information Act the specific one you must be referrring to, the one that stipulates to using Blackwater in combat operations.

so over 10% of US senators saying that Blackwater mercenaries are fighting in Iraq and Blackwater itself saying it is operating in Iraq isn't enough for you? Okay, here's what I'll do -- give me your address and I'll send a black-hawk chopper over to you and fly you to Iraq where you can watch a Blackwater mercenary shoot somebody... then, we can take his finger-prints and see if they match those on the records at Blackwater HQ back in the US... If we get a positive match, then we'll flip a coin --

Heads: you admit that Blackwater is fighting in Iraq
Tails: we'll follow your lead and pretend the world is flat

Ok...to be fair and balanced...I read the link..and I hate to be a downer but nowhere in there did I read anything regarding Defense Dept contracting mercenaries in the form of Blackwater or any other company to perform combat operations in the Republic of Iraq.

okay... so you can't read, or think

Rumsfeld asked to explain role of private security contractors in Iraq

It said contractors -- often ex-soldiers -- operate in a fashion similar to special forces


"In the context of Iraq, unless these forces are properly screened by United States authorities and are required to operate under clear guidelines and appropriate supervision, their presence will contribute to Iraqi resentment," the letter said.

Just in case you missed it -- The Senators want to why these so-called "civilian contractors" are operating like Special-ops guys in Iraq!!

Now....I was military for years..even spent a tour up in DC with Headquarters Marine Corps...we never do anything without an order backing any action.

so, when you lick the boot -- does is turn your tounge black?

Now..if you'll please identify for me the Dept of Defense contract, you can probably request thru the Freedom of Information Act the specific one you must be referrring to, the one that stipulates to using Blackwater in combat operations.

so over 10% of US senators saying that Blackwater mercenaries are fighting in Iraq and Blackwater itself saying it is operating in Iraq isn't enough for you? Okay, here's what I'll do -- give me your address and I'll send a black-hawk chopper over to you and fly you to Iraq where you can watch a Blackwater mercenary shoot somebody... then, we can take his finger-prints and see if they match those on the records at Blackwater HQ back in the US... If we get a positive match, then we'll flip a coin --

Heads: you admit that Blackwater is fighting in Iraq
Tails: we'll follow your lead and pretend the world is flat

You can mock me all you want..bottom line is...and this just tears at me. You have not one shred of proof other then your wild accusations that Blackwater is engaged in combat operations in the Republic of Iraq.

I mean..if Blackwater has a contract with the Defense Dept to have it's personnel engage in combat operations on it's behalf in the Republic of Iraq then by all means..produce this contract or a memo..anything that will back up your claim.

Seems to me from glancing through the thread that the argument is a semantic one. I don't think Blackwater is being used as mercenary troops in the sense that they are conducting combat ops like rgular units are, but they have been hired to provide "security," which means that in real world terms, they are potentially involved in combat ops if they are called upon to use their weapons in a security capacity.

My big issue with all this is that we--the taxpayers--are footing the bill for what are essentially private soldiers who make 3 to 4 times what our own soldiers are making and who are held to a lower standard of discipline and responsibility.

My question is this.....

Lets say for one moment that the DoD HAS contracted Blackwater to do some mercenary work....if they are the ones who have negotiated the contract...then how on earth would they be "operating outseide the control or jurisdiction" of the DoD?

I would think that ANY armed militia, no matter WHO they work for, theyre being kept an eye on.....you just cant go walking off willy-nilly into a battlezone, or just anywhere....

I would think its more of a case where they might be contracted by, and subordinate to.....the DoD.

Tex, this really seems like paranoia on your part, as you havent really substansiated your claims.

You can mock me all you want..bottom line is...and this just tears at me. You have not one shred of proof other then your wild accusations that Blackwater is engaged in combat operations in the Republic of Iraq.

From the only news source you trust:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117239,00.html


While the scale of military contractors may be new, working with private companies is old hat, said Jan Finegan, spokeswoman for Army Materiel Command (search). Hiring private contractors has been a military practice since the Civil War, Finegan said. "It frees up soldiers to do what soldiers normally do," she said, meaning fighting battles.

But these contractors are also filling roles traditionally played by soldiers. "This is the first time you’ve seen an extensive number of U.S. troops on the ground at the same time as private military personnel filling combat roles," said Brookings Institution (search) scholar Peter W. Singer.



I mean..if Blackwater has a contract with the Defense Dept to have it's personnel engage in combat operations on it's behalf in the Republic of Iraq then by all means..produce this contract or a memo..anything that will back up your claim.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com
"Our clients include federal law enforcement agencies, the Department of Defense, Department of State, and Department of Transportation, local and state entities from around the country, multi-national corporations, and friendly nations from all over the globe."

Gary Jackson
President

Seems to me from glancing through the thread that the argument is a semantic one. I don't think Blackwater is being used as mercenary troops in the sense that they are conducting combat ops like rgular units are, but they have been hired to provide "security," which means that in real world terms, they are potentially involved in combat ops if they are called upon to use their weapons in a security capacity.

My big issue with all this is that we--the taxpayers--are footing the bill for what are essentially private soldiers who make 3 to 4 times what our own soldiers are making and who are held to a lower standard of discipline and responsibility.

It's not semantics at all...hired to do security for a contractor who might be hired by the Bremer Adminstration to say...rebuild their telephone infrastructure...is a far cry from what Texas stated that in effect, they are running combat mission, reconnaisance in advance of military units, etc. In effect..they are combatants.....that is misleading and feeds into the worst of the conspiracy theorists intepretations

My question is this.....

Lets say for one moment that the DoD HAS contracted Blackwater to do some mercenary work....if they are the ones who have negotiated the contract...then how on earth would they be "operating outseide the control or jurisdiction" of the DoD?

okay... let's also say for a moment that the world is round...

I never said they were operated outside of the control of the DoD... I said that they operate outside of the "checks and balances of power" of the government!! Look, the constitution gives Congress the right to regulate the military -- by hiring "private armies" the Pentagon has side-stepped this and upset the balance of power...

I would think that ANY armed militia, no matter WHO they work for, theyre being kept an eye on.....you just cant go walking off willy-nilly into a battlezone, or just anywhere....


what... you mean like Fallujah?

I would think its more of a case where they might be contracted by, and subordinate to.....the DoD.

again, this is a removal of constitutional oversight...

Tex, this really seems like paranoia on your part, as you havent really substansiated your claims.

what would it take for my claims to become "substansiated" ???


again... for those too preoccupied calling me "paranoid" to read:

Thirteen senators expressed concern about "private armies operating outside the control of governmental authority."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&u=/afp/20040410/pl_afp/us_iraq_congress&printer=1

It's not semantics at all...hired to do security for a contractor who might be hired by the Bremer Adminstration to say...rebuild their telephone infrastructure...is a far cry from what Texas stated that in effect, they are running combat mission, reconnaisance in advance of military units, etc. In effect..they are combatants.....that is misleading and feeds into the worst of the conspiracy theorists intepretations

...

are you on Ritalin?


http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=68304&ran=154967


“Nobody knows anything about Blackwater,” Susan Johnson, Currituck County sheriff, said Wednesday. “They don’t bring a lot of attention to themselves.”

"Other contracts are classified so that even the government doesn’t know what the company is doing for one of its agencies, said Blackwater USA president Gary Jackson. "

If you're looking for the Documents you'll probably have to wait about 50 years...

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/


Blackwater Security Consulting has it roots in the Special Operations community and continues to sustain the skills that have been acquired over the years as effective tools that will support both national and commercial objectives

but until then you can pretend that those classified documents that your congressmen can't even look at are contracts for pizza delivery...

It's not semantics at all...hired to do security for a contractor who might be hired by the Bremer Adminstration to say...rebuild their telephone infrastructure...is a far cry from what Texas stated that in effect, they are running combat mission, reconnaisance in advance of military units, etc. In effect..they are combatants.....that is misleading and feeds into the worst of the conspiracy theorists intepretations

...

are you on Ritalin?


http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=68304&ran=154967


“Nobody knows anything about Blackwater,” Susan Johnson, Currituck County sheriff, said Wednesday. “They don’t bring a lot of attention to themselves.”

"Other contracts are classified so that even the government doesn’t know what the company is doing for one of its agencies, said Blackwater USA president Gary Jackson. "

If you're looking for the Documents you'll probably have to wait about 50 years...

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/


Blackwater Security Consulting has it roots in the Special Operations community and continues to sustain the skills that have been acquired over the years as effective tools that will support both national and commercial objectives

but until then you can pretend that those classified documents that your congressmen can't even look at are contracts for pizza delivery...

Ahh..when all else fails resort to ad hominem attacks..no..not on any sort of drugs....should I ask you if you've taken your latest round of meds? You've proved nothing...have nothing....and in short know nothing. What you have is an Oliver Stone complex..and that newsbit bout the senators STILL doesn't prove that Blackwater is being used by the us military in combat operations..geesh....next thing you'll tell me is their really was more the one rifleman on the grassy knoll in Dallas.

It's not semantics at all...hired to do security for a contractor who might be hired by the Bremer Adminstration to say...rebuild their telephone infrastructure...is a far cry from what Texas stated that in effect, they are running combat mission, reconnaisance in advance of military units, etc. In effect..they are combatants.....that is misleading and feeds into the worst of the conspiracy theorists intepretations

...

are you on Ritalin?


http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=68304&ran=154967


“Nobody knows anything about Blackwater,” Susan Johnson, Currituck County sheriff, said Wednesday. “They don’t bring a lot of attention to themselves.”

"Other contracts are classified so that even the government doesn’t know what the company is doing for one of its agencies, said Blackwater USA president Gary Jackson. "

If you're looking for the Documents you'll probably have to wait about 50 years...

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/


Blackwater Security Consulting has it roots in the Special Operations community and continues to sustain the skills that have been acquired over the years as effective tools that will support both national and commercial objectives

but until then you can pretend that those classified documents that your congressmen can't even look at are contracts for pizza delivery...

Ahh..when all else fails resort to ad hominem attacks..no..not on any sort of drugs....should I ask you if you've taken your latest round of meds? You've proved nothing...have nothing....and in short know nothing. What you have is an Oliver Stone complex..and that newsbit bout the senators STILL doesn't prove that Blackwater is being used by the us military in combat operations..geesh....next thing you'll tell me is their really was more the one rifleman on the grassy knoll in Dallas.

So should we all just walk away from this sort of report saying "Well, everything must be O.K., or the government would have told us all about it"?

Or should incidents like this be investigated, if only to clear up any misunderstandings that the uniformed may have ?

Surely, if nothing is to be hidden, a frank and open investigation will disclose nothing untoward.

next thing you'll tell me is their really was more the one rifleman on the grassy knoll in Dallas.

Don't be suprised if that happens.

It's not semantics at all...hired to do security for a contractor who might be hired by the Bremer Adminstration to say...rebuild their telephone infrastructure...is a far cry from what Texas stated that in effect, they are running combat mission, reconnaisance in advance of military units, etc. In effect..they are combatants.....that is misleading and feeds into the worst of the conspiracy theorists intepretations

...

are you on Ritalin?


http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=68304&ran=154967


“Nobody knows anything about Blackwater,” Susan Johnson, Currituck County sheriff, said Wednesday. “They don’t bring a lot of attention to themselves.”

"Other contracts are classified so that even the government doesn’t know what the company is doing for one of its agencies, said Blackwater USA president Gary Jackson. "

If you're looking for the Documents you'll probably have to wait about 50 years...

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/


Blackwater Security Consulting has it roots in the Special Operations community and continues to sustain the skills that have been acquired over the years as effective tools that will support both national and commercial objectives

but until then you can pretend that those classified documents that your congressmen can't even look at are contracts for pizza delivery...

Ahh..when all else fails resort to ad hominem attacks..no..not on any sort of drugs....should I ask you if you've taken your latest round of meds? You've proved nothing...have nothing....and in short know nothing. What you have is an Oliver Stone complex..and that newsbit bout the senators STILL doesn't prove that Blackwater is being used by the us military in combat operations..geesh....next thing you'll tell me is their really was more the one rifleman on the grassy knoll in Dallas.

So should we all just walk away from this sort of report saying "Well, everything must be O.K., or the government would have told us all about it"?

Or should incidents like this be investigated, if only to clear up any misunderstandings that the uniformed may have ?

Surely, if nothing is to be hidden, a frank and open investigation will disclose nothing untoward.

You're gonna have a mild coronary there SG..but lo and behold..I'm gonna agree with you..if for no other reason then to to plainly show that Blackwater, indeed any other US National or International security outfit currently employed in the Republic of Iraq is not acting as some sort of pseudo-military unit engaged in combat operations against insurgents

Seems to me from glancing through the thread that the argument is a semantic one. I don't think Blackwater is being used as mercenary troops in the sense that they are conducting combat ops like rgular units are, but they have been hired to provide "security," which means that in real world terms, they are potentially involved in combat ops if they are called upon to use their weapons in a security capacity.

My big issue with all this is that we--the taxpayers--are footing the bill for what are essentially private soldiers who make 3 to 4 times what our own soldiers are making and who are held to a lower standard of discipline and responsibility.

It's not semantics at all...hired to do security for a contractor who might be hired by the Bremer Adminstration to say...rebuild their telephone infrastructure...is a far cry from what Texas stated that in effect, they are running combat mission, reconnaisance in advance of military units, etc. In effect..they are combatants.....that is misleading and feeds into the worst of the conspiracy theorists intepretationsI was just trying to provide a reason for the discrepancy--it sounds to me like a matter of how the matter is being reported. Lord knows we've never have problems with reporters being sloppy in using the proper vocabulary.[/sarcasm]

And Tex is one of those people who makes outrageous claims and then either has nothing or has a conspiracy-theory laden explanation to back them up more often than not.

And Tex is one of those people who makes outrageous claims and then either has nothing or has a conspiracy-theory laden explanation to back them up more often than not.

...

which of my claims is a theory?

I've documented everyting I've said with the New York Times, the Associated Press, the Washington Journal and Blackwater's own website...

And Tex is one of those people who makes outrageous claims and then either has nothing or has a conspiracy-theory laden explanation to back them up more often than not.

...

which of my claims is a theory?

I've documented everyting I've said with the New York Times, the Associated Press, the Washington Journal and Blackwater's own website...

the scariest part of all is the conspiracy is real

next thing you'll tell me is their really was more the one rifleman on the grassy knoll in Dallas.
:D a Freudian slip -- perhaps!

actually, I'm not really sure how many gunmen were on the grassy knoll...

next thing you'll tell me is their really was more the one rifleman on the grassy knoll in Dallas.
:D a Freudian slip -- perhaps!

actually, I'm not really sure how many gunmen were on the grassy knoll...

Nostradamus called it the misty copse--and there is one there at that exact site

You're gonna have a mild coronary there SG..but lo and behold..I'm gonna agree with you..if for no other reason then to to plainly show that Blackwater, indeed any other US National or International security outfit currently employed in the Republic of Iraq is not acting as some sort of pseudo-military unit engaged in combat operations against insurgents

I hate to tell you, but the world is not flat!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/international/middleeast/19SECU.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5062&en=6ee1433c827a195d&ex=1082952000&partner=GOOGLE

In Washington, defense experts and some leading Democrats are raising alarms over security companies' growing role in Iraq.

"Security in a hostile fire area is a classic military mission," Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island, a member of the Armed Service committee, wrote last week in a letter to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld signed by 12 other Democratic senators. "Delegating this mission to private contractors raises serious questions."

The extent and strategic importance of the alliance between the Pentagon and the private security industry has been all the more visible with each surge of violence. In recent weeks, commandos from private security companies fought to defend coalition authority employees and buildings from major assaults in Kut and Najaf, two cities south of Baghdad. To the north, in Mosul, a third security company repelled a direct assault on its headquarters. In the most publicized attack, four private security contractors were killed in an ambush of a supply convoy in Fallujah.


"We're really in an unprecedented situation here," said Michael Battles, co-founder of the security company Custer Battles. "Civilian contractors are working in and amongst the most hostile parts of a conflict or postconflict scenario."

In many cases companies are adapting to the dangers of Iraq by replicating the tactics they perfected on Special Forces teams. One, Special Operations Consulting-Security Management Group, has recruited Iraqi informants who provide intelligence that helps the company assess threats, said Michael A. Janke, the company's chief operating officer.

As a result, security contractors have increasingly found themselves in pitched battles, facing rocket-propelled grenades, not jaywalkers..

It is in those engagements, several security executives said, that the distinctions between defense and offense blur most. One notable example came two weeks ago, when eight security contractors from Blackwater USA helped repel a major attack on a coalition authority building in Najaf. The men fired thousands of rounds, and then summoned Blackwater helicopters for more.

In an interview, Patrick Toohey, vice president for government relations at Blackwater, grappled for the right words to describe his men's actions. At one moment he spoke proudly of how the Blackwater men "fought and engaged every combatant with precise fire." At another he insisted that his men had not been engaged in combat at all. "We were conducting a security operation," he said.

"The line," he finally said, "is getting blurred."



For now, companies are often writing their own rules and procedures for Iraq.

"It's an industry that if it's not careful could easily blend into what is usually referred to as war profiteers or soldiers of fortune or mercenaries," "It is a very ill-defined operating space right now," Mr. Battles said. "We draw the lines."

The April 25th edition of the Austin American-Statesmen reports that there are no less than 15,000 Pentagon employed mercenaries in Iraq.

the scariest part of all is the conspiracy is real

I find it hard to believe that people are still disputing this story... even the major media is reporting it now...

the scariest part of all is the conspiracy is real

I find it hard to believe that people are still disputing this story... even the major media is reporting it now...

people always deny uncomfortable truths until its pounded into their heads

people always deny uncomfortable truths until its pounded into their heads

The fact is that these mercenary groups are being financed by the Pentagon and the Homeland Security Department budgets...

They are using military funds to create a "privatized" military force that operates anywhere... EVEN INSIDE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

The PNAC will use jack-boot thugs like Blackwater to combate the National Guard units that refuse to execute the orders of the Homeland Security Department. The next American Civil War is coming!!

This reminds of the security firm Press Linux own's from species 2

This reminds of the security firm Press Linux own's from species 2
:?:

Okay, I was alerted to this thread by someone who knows I did research on PMC's.

First off, the term "mercenary" activates a number of international conventions such as the Third Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War, Optional Protocol 1 (1979) Article 47 as well as the Organization for African Unity (now the African Union) Convention against Mercenarism (1979) and several other bilateral and multilateral agreements on the use of foreign nationals in military conflicts.

The individuals in question that are being deployed to Iraq are not "mercenaries" according to the aforementioned conventions (which are the internationaly recognized definitions) nor are they considered "mercenaries" by the UN Special Rapporteur for Mercenaries (I know because I interviewed him last year)

Most international bodies and domestic legislatures have made the distinction between the mercenaries that ran rampant across Africa and Asia during the 1950's, 60's and to a degree the 70's, and the current Private Military Companies such as Vinnel, Kellog Brown and Root and Sandline International.

After examining the argument in this thread, I think that people are confusing Private Military Companies and Private Security Companies. It might seem like a small detail but it drasticaly changes the legal and political picture.

PMC's have the capacity to engage in military operations independent of a national force (see EO's operations against UNITA and RUF). They also tend to possess their own air and artillery support. After the dissolution of Sandline International after the Brazzaville fiasco, there haven't been many PMC's in operation anywhere in the world.

PSC's are far more prevalent and more legislated then their larger, angrier cousins. Within the US there are a number of companies that are straddling the distinction line between the two but the fact that they are owned by larger companies such as Haliburton or Info systems means they fall under the PSC distinction.

If you are operating a PSC, you must obey a number of regulations from your government and the government in the nation you are deployed too. You never leave the jurisdiction of a judiciary because you are effectively a civilian being contracted to perform a mission that might involve violence. If there is a confrontation and you are forced to use lethal force then you can and will be tried for murder if either your government or the host government deems an illegal act has been committed.

How do you know when a PSC has been deployed? Well, if you are contracting a PSC or even a PMC you must apply for a permit from ITAR to transport weapons and ordinance if you are an American company or one working in a designated American strategic interest zone.

Can a PSC be deployed on American soil? Yes. Ever seen a Brinks truck? Thats a PSC right there.

Can a PMC be deployed on American soil? Absolutely not. The American government maintaines the monopoly on use of military force within its territory.

Are PSC's and possibly PMC's being deployed in Iraq? Yes, and they were there during the first Gulf War and they are in Afghanistan as well. Why? Because it reduces the amount of soldiers needed to maintain non-combat services. The Pentagon has outsorced most of its jobs to these groups. They run the camps, service the bombers and jets and guard weapon depos in certain locals.

Is it legal? That's iffy. It depends on what the government of Iraq thinks about it. Considering that the American State and Defense dept are the defacto government of Iraq then you could say that their deployment is legal.

Is it a new phenomen? No, PMC's and PSC's have been in operation for centuries if not longer. The British East India company maintained their own military force to quell rebellions in India as did the Hudsons Bay Company in Canada. Neither attempted to overthrow their respective governments and both helped establish long term democracies.

Have PMCs committed atrocities? Hard to say, there were cases in Kosovo and AirScan was responsible for bombing several villages in Colombia during an operation to eradicate drug smugglers.

Should I stop typing? Yes.

EDIT: I can't even get all the spelling mistakes in this, sorry.

Okay, I was alerted to this thread by someone who knows I did research on PMC's.

First off, the term "mercenary" activates a number of international conventions such as the Third Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War, Optional Protocol 1 (1979) Article 47 as well as the Organization for African Unity (now the African Union) Convention against Mercenarism (1979) and several other bilateral and multilateral agreements on the use of foreign nationals in military conflicts.

The individuals in question that are being deployed to Iraq are not "mercenaries" according to the aforementioned conventions (which are the internationaly recognized definitions) nor are they considered "mercenaries" by the UN Special Rapporteur for Mercenaries (I know because I interviewed him last year)

Most international bodies and domestic legislatures have made the distinction between the mercenaries that ran rampant across Africa and Asia during the 1950's, 60's and to a degree the 70's, and the current Private Military Companies such as Vinnel, Kellog Brown and Root and Sandline International.

After examining the argument in this thread, I think that people are confusing Private Military Companies and Private Security Companies. It might seem like a small detail but it drasticaly changes the legal and political picture.

PMC's have the capacity to engage in military operations independent of a national force (see EO's operations against UNITA and RUF). They also tend to possess their own air and artillery support. After the dissolution of Sandline International after the Brazzaville fiasco, there haven't been many PMC's in operation anywhere in the world.

PSC's are far more prevalent and more legislated then their larger, angrier cousins. Within the US there are a number of companies that are straddling the distinction line between the two but the fact that they are owned by larger companies such as Haliburton or Info systems means they fall under the PSC distinction.

If you are operating a PSC, you must obey a number of regulations from your government and the government in the nation you are deployed too. You never leave the jurisdiction of a judiciary because you are effectively a civilian being contracted to perform a mission that might involve violence. If there is a confrontation and you are forced to use lethal force then you can and will be tried for murder if either your government or the host government deems an illegal act has been committed.

How do you know when a PSC has been deployed? Well, if you are contracting a PSC or even a PMC you must apply for a permit from ITAR to transport weapons and ordinance if you are an American company or one working in a designated American strategic interest zone.

Can a PSC be deployed on American soil? Yes. Ever seen a Brinks truck? Thats a PSC right there.

Can a PMC be deployed on American soil? Absolutely not. The American government maintaines the monopoly on use of military force within its territory.

Are PSC's and possibly PMC's being deployed in Iraq? Yes, and they were there during the first Gulf War and they are in Afghanistan as well. Why? Because it reduces the amount of soldiers needed to maintain non-combat services. The Pentagon has outsorced most of its jobs to these groups. They run the camps, service the bombers and jets and guard weapon depos in certain locals.

Is it legal? That's iffy. It depends on what the government of Iraq thinks about it. Considering that the American State and Defense dept are the defacto government of Iraq then you could say that their deployment is legal.

Is it a new phenomen? No, PMC's and PSC's have been in operation for centuries if not longer. The British East India company maintained their own military force to quell rebellions in India as did the Hudsons Bay Company in Canada. Neither attempted to overthrow their respective governments and both helped establish long term democracies.

Have PMCs committed atrocities? Hard to say, there were cases in Kosovo and AirScan was responsible for bombing several villages in Colombia during an operation to eradicate drug smugglers.

Should I stop typing? Yes.

EDIT: I can't even get all the spelling mistakes in this, sorry.

Oh you go Guiness...oh how I wish I'd done my research..you managed to convey my point in one neat package.

Can a PMC be deployed on American soil? Absolutely not. The American government maintaines the monopoly on use of military force within its territory.

Okay... let's go through the facts:
Blackwater is funded by the Pentagon and made-up of Navy SEALs, Army Rangers, and Green Berets.
Blackwater operates inside of Iraq as a PMC
Blackwater operates inside of the US under the Homeland Security Department

Thus, a PMC is operating in the US -- in direct violation of the Posse Comitatus Act!



Have PMCs committed atrocities? Hard to say, there were cases in Kosovo and AirScan was responsible for bombing several villages in Colombia during an operation to eradicate drug smugglers.


One of the guys in the "Fallujah Mutilation Incident" was a death-squad leader during the Apartheid

Oh you go Guiness...oh how I wish I'd done my research..you managed to convey my point in one neat package.

The only one keeping you ignorant is yourself...

I can assure you that a bold statement like all civilian contractors are special forces is not true. I know this first hand.

I can assure you that a bold statement like all civilian contractors are special forces is not true. I know this first hand.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C15FB3A5F0C7A8DDDAD0894DC404482

I'd just like you to take a cold hard look at the evidence.

you think that an article written for on of the most biased newspapers is evidence? I know because I AM a P.C.

you think that an article written for on of the most biased newspapers is evidence? I know because I AM a P.C.

okay... then take a look at Blackwater's own site: http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

scroll down to the middle of that page and take a long hard look: does that look like a security guard to you?

Now, go do some more research...

I didnt say that there were NO SpecOP in civilian contractor positions. I just stated that most are not with specOPs.

I didnt say that there were NO SpecOP in civilian contractor positions. I just stated that most are not with specOPs.

With Blackwater, most (if not all) are SpecOps.

I can assure you that a bold statement like all civilian contractors are special forces is not true. I know this first hand.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C15FB3A5F0C7A8DDDAD0894DC404482

I'd just like you to take a cold hard look at the evidence.
I know for a fact the civilian contractor from Macon, Mississippi who is hostage right now has no military background.

There are two types of contractors, the ones who are there to help that country get back on its feet, and there are the ones who are protecting those guys.

And when I get through with my commitment to the military, I am taking one of those jobs where I can get paid 3 times as much to do the same job.

And when I get through with my commitment to the military, I am taking one of those jobs where I can get paid 3 times as much to do the same job.

That's my point: These guys are doing special-ops jobs -- that's why the Pentagon is paying them up to 1,000 a day! They're also removed from Congressional oversight (breaking Constitutional Law) and the military doesn't have to answer for them...

And when I get through with my commitment to the military, I am taking one of those jobs where I can get paid 3 times as much to do the same job.

That's my point: These guys are doing special-ops jobs -- that's why the Pentagon is paying them up to 1,000 a day! They're also removed from Congressional oversight (breaking Constitutional Law) and the military doesn't have to answer for them...
not necessarily spec-op jobs. Intel. analysts, interrogators, translators, and commo people are in high demand in the civilian market. Thats why the army has a hard time getting these people to say in past their initial commitment. People get the training for these jobs, and then after their 3-6 years is over, they do the smart thing and take their ass to the civilian companies. Not all of these contractors with military training over in Iraq are Rambo.

not necessarily spec-op jobs. Intel. analysts, interrogators, translators, and commo people are in high demand in the civilian market.

add, "shooting a gun" to that list and you've just described a spec-op Recondo.


People get the training for these jobs, and then after their 3-6 years is over, they do the smart thing and take their ass to the civilian companies.

but the "civilian companies" (especially Blackwater) are funded by the Pentagon... thus, they're not really "civilian"

[quote=Guinness Extra Cold]
Can a PMC be deployed on American soil? Absolutely not. The American government maintaines the monopoly on use of military force within its territory.

Okay... let's go through the facts:
Blackwater is funded by the Pentagon and made-up of Navy SEALs, Army Rangers, and Green Berets.
Blackwater operates inside of Iraq as a PMC
Blackwater operates inside of the US under the Homeland Security Department

Thus, a PMC is operating in the US -- in direct violation of the Posse Comitatus Act!


They do training inside the US, and training is not a violation of Posse Comitatus, specificaly when it comes to the matter of training.

"POSSE COMITATUS ACT" (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to "execute the laws" except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies--including the Coast Guard--especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement.

Also, since Blackwater is made up of mostly ex-Delta Force types they are perfectly suited for training Homeland Security Subordinants for terrorism. Delta Force is a counter-terrorist force they study it and learn how to beat terrorists at their own game. They provide extremely effective security to public officials abroad. They provide security for Afganistans new president and for Paul Bremer. The reason we have them do this instead of the military is becuase they are better at it than anybody else in the world. The Current Delta Force only has so many members, and they should be doing things in the field. We bring Blackwater people in to counter terrorism against officials and infrastructure. This is what the men in Falluja were looking at, bridges and how to secure them. They arnt there to be a force that doesnt report to checks and balances, they are counter terrorist security forces and advisors.

As to the comment that they dont "look like security guards." This is because they arnt watching a JC Penny for theives, like im sure the writer is. They are counter-terrorists who provide sophisticated counter-terrorist security to high risk officials and targets.

not necessarily spec-op jobs. Intel. analysts, interrogators, translators, and commo people are in high demand in the civilian market.

add, "shooting a gun" to that list and you've just described a spec-op Recondo.
i am an Intel analyst and I shoot a gun, does that make me Rambo for my unit? Hell no. If I was in Iraq right now, you would have to pay me millions to walk around without a gun. thats the truth of the nature. would you walk around without a weapon? I dont think so.


People get the training for these jobs, and then after their 3-6 years is over, they do the smart thing and take their ass to the civilian companies.

but the "civilian companies" (especially Blackwater) are funded by the Pentagon... thus, they're not really "civilian"
You are right. According to the USA's ROE, "a civilian pointing a weapon is no longer a civilian." But like I said above, would you go to Iraq without a rifle?

I wrote the above response, and i think i screwed up. Everything above the Posse Comitus definition should be in quotes. The definition disproves the above statement, as federal contractors are ALLOWED to provide training.

:idea: First of all, I remember I was screaming for weeks trying to tell the folks that Blackwater was a spec-ops front; no one believed me... now I have to debate with people who think it's good that Blackwater is a spec-ops front!



They do training inside the US, and training is not a violation of Posse Comitatus, specificaly when it comes to the matter of training.

Nevermind "training" for a second, these guys are the jackboots of the Homeland Security Dept. They "operate" inside the US, even when they are spec-ops guys paid by the Pentagon!

"POSSE COMITATUS ACT" (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to "execute the laws" except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. [snip at spin]

That started off making sense, then it went into an interesting interpretation...

http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-2/752-10.html

Also, since Blackwater is made up of mostly ex-Delta Force types they are perfectly suited for training Homeland Security Subordinants for terrorism. Delta Force is a counter-terrorist force they study it and learn how to beat terrorists at their own game.

Yes, I know -- this is why I find it very frightening that men who are trained in fighting guerrilla war-fare are opperating inside the USA!

They arnt there to be a force that doesnt report to checks and balances, they are counter terrorist security forces and advisors.

Okay... regardless of what they're there for, it still stands to reason that if there are more of them (20,000) than there are of America's allies in the coalition, then they should be regulated by Congress (just like the military is)

As to the comment that they dont "look like security guards." This is because they arnt watching a JC Penny for theives, like im sure the writer is. They are counter-terrorists who provide sophisticated counter-terrorist security to high risk officials and targets.

And when they dress like "storm-troopers" in black BDUs with reckless weapons that are illegal for the Navy SEALs -- and they are out using spec-op tactic ... well, I say that's when you can stop calling them "civilian contractors" and start calling them MERCENARIES!

you think that an article written for on of the most biased newspapers is evidence? I know because I AM a P.C.

For whom are you a P.C. because I'm talking about Blackwater --- not Halliburtion...