NationStates Jolt Archive

You gotta admit, Bush is one smart player in this game of politics.

He knows how to give his enemies exactly what they say they want but know could cripple them. he knows how to call a bluff, and how to show his true cards.

Let's look at some smart plays he's done in office.

UN Reso 1441:
Bush: "Hey Saddam, give us your weapons or we'll bomb you"
Saddam: "here, here is 2 chemical weapons. happy?"
Powell: "Come on man, we know you have tons more."
Saddam: "..."
Minister of Information: "We do not have nor have we ever had any chemical weapons!"
Powell: "right..."
Bush: "That's it. We n00k j00."
Saddam: "Yeah, yeah whatever.. I'll just sit here and do nothing, you won't bomb me... no US president has the balls to do it."
Bush: "Oh yeah?" *bombs Iraq*

Saddam:
Dems: "Where's Saddam? We went into Iraq for Saddam, where is he?"
Bush: "...we're still looking, give us a break..."
Dems: "You won't find him. You went into this war for nothing!"
Bush: *saddam is captured* "BAM!"
Dems: "uhh... Oh... crap... we Just spent a couple months cmpaigning about that... well, umm, he wasn't that important anyway! What can we fall back on now?"

Iraq for Oil?:
Dems: "Bush led us to war for oil!"
Bush: "...you mean that oil we're not exporting?"
Dems: "...the oil you gave Halliburton the contract for!"
Bush: "Halliburton has earned it in the past... even Clinton can tell you that..."

Bush's service record:
Dems: "Bush was AWOL!"
Bush: "no... I wasn't"
Dems: "Bush was AWOL! he has no proof!"
Bush: "Really?"
Dems: *month later* "Bush was AWOL!"
Bush: *gives everyone photocopies of his records* "BAM!"
Dems: "Aww, crap, we just spent a month campaining on this issue... crap! Let's backpedal to... umm, the economy!"

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"

9/11 Commission:
Dems: "Bush did nothing about 9/11!"
Bush: "What could I have done?"
Dems: "Dick Clark says you didn't care about Al Qaeda!"
Bush: "Of course I did, what are you talking about?"
Dems: "Then why won't you let Condi Testify?"

Condoleezza Rice:
Dems: "Let Condy Rice Testify!"
Bush: "No, thats against policy."
Dems: "Oh, come on... you're just hiding something."
Bush: "Really? Fine, Condy, go testify."
Condy: "We didn't know they would attack."
Dems: "Crap! Well what about that August PDB?"

The August PDB:
Dems: "That PDB says we knew Osama would attack the US with planes!"
PDB: "Osama is going to hijack a plane to help some terrorists escape."
Bush: "See? nothing to do with plane crashing."
Dems: "*^!#$*! What else do we have?! Let's keep making up stuff!"

Next thing they make up:
Dems: "Blah blah blah!!!"
Bush: :roll:
Dems: "Blah blah blah, BLAH!"
Bush: "blah? Blah. BAM!"
Dems: "#&*%!.....blah!"

"Unilateralism":
Dems: "We need UN support in Iraq!"
Bush: "Really? Hmm, I seem to recall asking for it, but they all bailed on us..."
Dems: "We can't do this alone!"
*Japan and some others join in*
Bush: "There."
*Japanese get killed and kidnapped*
Dems: "Get them out of there!"
Bush: :roll:

Censorship of Iraqi Newspapers:
Dems: "Why did you censor them for being Anti-US?!"
Bush: "Because they told the Iraqi civillians that they should kill us on sight..."
Kerry: "But these guys are intelligent people! If they have a message, it should be heard!"
Kerry: "Umm, you know, except of course if that message is to Kill us..."
Kerry: "But censoring them is bad if we're going to give power to them!"
Kerry: "But they're encouraging the riots in Falujah(sp)."
Kerry: "Shut up! I'm trying to make a point here!"
Kerry: "Don't try to censor me!"
Bush: "....."
Republicans: LOL

I'm seeing a trend here. It seriously looks like Bush knows how to play this game, and make his enemies look like paranoid fools.

Do you think this trend will carry on? Will it happen with WMDs? Osama? Gay marriage?

UN Reso 1441:
Bush: "Hey Saddam, give us your weapons or we'll bomb you"
Saddam: "Yeah, yeah whatever.. I'll just sit here and do nothing, you won't bomb me... no US president has the balls to do it."
Bush: "Oh yeah?" *bombs Iraq*Ummm... but Saddam DID do something, he began to disarm. And we bombed his ass anyway, killing millions of innocent Iraqis. Which President Clinton also did, pre-Lewinsky.

But that's not my point.

My point is, Raysia, what the hell do you think you're doing? Stay OFF the General Forums, for your own good. You KNOW there are about ten or twenty people lying in wait just DYING to flame you, and get you DEATed again, and this time for good. So, for your own good, stay off General for at least a month until the heat dies down.

Resi: *sigh* yeah, you're probably right. No more topic starts by me. I'll just leave this one where it is.

Sadly, there is some truth in both arguements.

Except for the millions of dead Iraqis. I think the Iraqi (not army, army is like 20,000) casualties are in the 8,000-10,000 range

Sadly, there is some truth in both arguements.

Except for the millions of dead Iraqis. I think the Iraqi (not army, army is like 20,000) casualties are in the 8,000-10,000 range... Average # of Iraqis killed per year under Saddam: >100,000
Average # of Iraqis killed per year under Bush: <10,000

Them numbers don't lie :)

Resi: *sigh* yeah, you're probably right. No more topic starts by me. I'll just leave this one where it is.

Don't let any liberal bastards get you down Raysia. I was laughing and smiling in agreement while reading the whole thing. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if you did get flammed by libs, though. Oh well, I probably support you anyway.

Bring It On libs! :twisted:

Resi: *sigh* yeah, you're probably right. No more topic starts by me. I'll just leave this one where it is.

Don't let any liberal bastards get you down Raysia. I was laughing and smiling in agreement while reading the whole thing. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if you did get flammed by libs, though. Oh well, I probably support you anyway.

Bring It On libs! :twisted:Meh, Resi may be a lib, but he's just looking out for me...

anyway, this post was inspired by Tony Snow's points on his new radio show :)

Photo copies of paycheck stubs don't mean squat.

Unless of course they found somehting new....

Last I heard as well there was a bounty to be paid to anybody who can prove they served with him at the time. Last I heard no takers.

Even the base commander said he don't remember him "I would remember a Luet. from Texas"

Bring It On libs! :twisted: Ug :roll: Can't we all just get along? Raysia said he was going to stop posting and stay away from General, and you go goading the other side to stir up the thread and just get things more heated?

Raysia! Ignore the guys here.. on both sides, stay in International. Just try and let things cool off.

Photo copies of paycheck stubs don't mean squat.

Unless of course they found somehting new....

Last I heard as well there was a bounty to be paid to anybody who can prove they served with him at the time. Last I heard no takers.

Even the base commander said he don't remember him "I would remember a Luet. from Texas"Why does it matter so much? It is a total non-issue. You guys are scraping for anything at the bottom of the barrel.

Anyway, back to what Resi said, since I never rebuttled him:

Ummm... but Saddam DID do something, he began to disarm. And we bombed his ass anyway, killing millions of innocent Iraqis. Which President Clinton also did, pre-Lewinsky. Saddam: "here, here is 2 chemical weapons. happy?"
Powell: "Come on man, we know you have tons more."
Saddam: "..."
Minister of Information: "We do not have nor have we ever had any chemical weapons!"
Powell: "right..."
Bush: "That's it. We n00k j00."

Bring It On libs! :twisted: Ug :roll: Can't we all just get along? Raysia said he was going to stop posting and stay away from General, and you go goading the other side to stir up the thread and just get things more heated?

Raysia! Ignore the guys here.. on both sides, stay in International. Just try and let things cool off.Good point.

*notices how no one has posted anything to counter my point*

Hmm... I don't mean to troll, but come on, where's the opposition?

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.

Resi: *sigh* yeah, you're probably right. No more topic starts by me. I'll just leave this one where it is.

Don't let any liberal bastards get you down Raysia. I was laughing and smiling in agreement while reading the whole thing. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if you did get flammed by libs, though. Oh well, I probably support you anyway.

Bring It On libs! :twisted:Meh, Resi may be a lib, but he's just looking out for me...

anyway, this post was inspired by Tony Snow's points on his new radio show :)

I wasn't attacking Resi or anything. I was just speaking in general. I'll check out that Tony Snow thing right away. :)

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.I know. The last thing I want this to be is a flamewar. But, sometimes it's just the nature of arguments like this.

The challenge comes in countering my point without attacking me personally.

Raysia, i have saved your post, and, with your permission, could i create a reformatted version which can be distributed over mail? I will try and publish this as best as i can, i find it to be funny and inspiring.

Raysia, i have saved your post, and, with your permission, could i create a reformatted version which can be distributed over mail? I will try and publish this as best as i can, i find it to be funny and inspiring.Sure. Wait 5 minutes, I have a few things I want to add :)



And yes, i did write this myself... i did not copy and paste like [i]some people out there ;)

Photo copies of paycheck stubs don't mean squat.

Unless of course they found somehting new....

Last I heard as well there was a bounty to be paid to anybody who can prove they served with him at the time. Last I heard no takers.

Even the base commander said he don't remember him "I would remember a Luet. from Texas"Why does it matter so much? It is a total non-issue. You guys are scraping for anything at the bottom of the barrel.


For someone of a military family(I was the first to break it as a promise to my grandfather), yes it is an issue.

One of my great-uncles went AWOL to see his girl (my future Great-aunt) for 3 days and was punished for it. Yet, he supposedly goes AWOL for a year......

To use your phrasing....

You guys like tossing pot shots at Kerry over his military career and you call this a dead issue.

No matter what Kerry did, he still served in combat while the shrub was protecting us from the VC back in the states. Or when he was serving that is.....

At the moment I am not a Kerry supporter so don't even bother.....

try these on for size
Dem: WMD's
Rep: uh uh, you hate america and love saddam

Dem: democracy (and by this i mean real democracy, not the kind that inspires bill 39, if you don't know what this is, go to the thread about it, this)
rep: we'd rather be rich

UN Reso 1441:
Bush: "Hey Saddam, give us your weapons or we'll bomb you"
Saddam: "Yeah, yeah whatever.. I'll just sit here and do nothing, you won't bomb me... no US president has the balls to do it."
Bush: "Oh yeah?" *bombs Iraq*Ummm... but Saddam DID do something, he began to disarm.

He did? How did I miss that?
I guess I was wrong in believing Hans Blix when he talked about the lack of cooperation on the part of the Iraqis.

Or maybe you're talking about before Saddam through out the UN inspectors in 1998. I guess he was kind of beginning to disarm before he threw the inspectors out of the country.

Bring It On libs! :twisted: Ug :roll: Can't we all just get along? Raysia said he was going to stop posting and stay away from General, and you go goading the other side to stir up the thread and just get things more heated?

Raysia! Ignore the guys here.. on both sides, stay in International. Just try and let things cool off.Good point.

*notices how no one has posted anything to counter my point*

Hmm... I don't mean to troll, but come on, where's the opposition?
Yes, you DO mean to troll.
Your invented dialogue proves nothing.
Bush "sold" the war on the "imminent danger" of "weapons of mass destruction". They haven't been found.
While the UN was ignored, the US now seeks UN aid.
Several other nations, mine included (Australia) were "invited" (Pressured ?) to join the "Coalition of the Willing". To now be disparaged for doing so is insulting and demeaning.
Do try to resist the temptation to "troll". If you have facts, or stories from (reasonably) reputable sources, please feel free to post them or links to them.
Inventing spurious dialogue is an obvious attempt at trolling, which is why it has been ignored.
I will not post to this thread again.
Do youself a favour, and cool it.

Bring It On libs! :twisted: Ug :roll: Can't we all just get along? Raysia said he was going to stop posting and stay away from General, and you go goading the other side to stir up the thread and just get things more heated?

Raysia! Ignore the guys here.. on both sides, stay in International. Just try and let things cool off.

Let me clarify my position. I'm certainly not trying to stir up the thread and get things more heated. From the responses of Raysia's other thread about JFK, this just seemed doomed to a backlash of antibush rhetoric. I'm actually quite suprised that it has remained relatively mild and I would prefer to keep it that way.

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.

Ah, Well, let me try and do that...

First off... On your intial arguments... The back and forth bits, Its over simplifaction, that usually can get a lot of people upset. Especially if its slanted a certain way. As for an actual counter, well, on this one:

UN Reso 1441:
Bush: "Hey Saddam, give us your weapons or we'll bomb you"
Saddam: "Yeah, yeah whatever.. I'll just sit here and do nothing, you won't bomb me... no US president has the balls to do it."
Bush: "Oh yeah?" *bombs Iraq*

My personally oppinion is that Saddam actually 'thought' he did have WMD's I mean the guy was Delusional, and you can't deny that.. so what if they guy, totally crazed.. wanted the world to think he had WMD's, and maybe he did have a few, maybe even a few nasties ones..but he gave the apperance that perhaps he has 100 times... So.. if Saddam feels threatend, and trys to disarm, we think hes bluffing because We have begun to belive what he belives.. that he has 100's of WMDs... (this is just my opinion)

Photo copies of paycheck stubs don't mean squat.

Unless of course they found somehting new....

Last I heard as well there was a bounty to be paid to anybody who can prove they served with him at the time. Last I heard no takers.

Even the base commander said he don't remember him "I would remember a Luet. from Texas"Why does it matter so much? It is a total non-issue. You guys are scraping for anything at the bottom of the barrel.

Anyway, back to what Resi said, since I never rebuttled him:

Ummm... but Saddam DID do something, he began to disarm. And we bombed his ass anyway, killing millions of innocent Iraqis. Which President Clinton also did, pre-Lewinsky. Saddam: "here, here is 2 chemical weapons. happy?"
Powell: "Come on man, we know you have tons more."
Saddam: "..."
Minister of Information: "We do not have nor have we ever had any chemical weapons!"
Powell: "right..."
Bush: "That's it. We n00k j00."

Maybe you should continue this conversation
Bush: Saddam, its the WMD's that Rumsfield gave you in the 80s. The same ones the US helped you use on the Kurds
SaddaM: oh those, and thanks for lying to the kurds about helping them overthrow me. If it wasn't for you guys, i'd be taken out 10 years ago and those kurds would be alive
Bush: well your helpig me get elected so we'll call a spade a spade.

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.off-topic *gasp* A conservative mod?

*writes down Neutered Sputniks on his list of butts to kiss so he doesn't get deleted again* :P

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.

Damn it! lag time at my post again. :x

Once again questions:

1) Is said orders the same as it was in the 60s?

2) Is said orders the same for the National Guard?

Finally, probably the most damning evidence to end this arguement is flight logs! He was a pilot and he had to log a certain amount of hours! The logs would show he was on base and was doing his job!

Let's seee if this post takes!

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"


Clinton didn't loose 3 million jobs. ;)

Again as was put to you before. Said jobs seem to be mainly in the service sector(ie part time).

A WAN engineer working at StarBucks is not exactly employeed.

Also, are we talking manufactoring or are we talking the shrubs McDonalds and BurgerKing are in the manufactoring sector definition of jobs.

Construction is not really an indicator either since it is seasonal. The weather is warming up so yes there is more contruction work.

Now if he can bost another 300000 jobs created next reporting. Then he will have more to brag about....

The World: You're all wankers!

Bush: Yes, yes we are.

wow the world knows what the term wanker means? :P

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"

uh......huh.......................moving on......how can there be jobs in clinton's watch O_O

"Unilateralism":
Dems: "We need UN support in Iraq!"
Bush: "Really? Hmm, I seem to recall asking for it, but they all bailed on us..."
Dems: "We can't do this alone!"
*Japan and some others join in*
Bush: "There."
*Japanese get killed and kidnapped*
Dems: "Get them out of there!"

Yeah...more like "IRAQ DIE DIE DIE" UN: "Umm...no" US: SCREW YOU WAR NOW FOR PEOPLE WHO DIDNT EVEN COMMIT 9/11 AND ARE 'JUST' COMING ON TO OUR AGENDA TO DISTRACT THE PEOPLE!"

....yup sounds about right.

: Saddam: "here, here is 2 chemical weapons. happy?"
Powell: "Come on man, we know you have tons more."
Saddam: "..."
Minister of Information: "We do not have nor have we ever had any chemical weapons!"
Powell: "right..."
Bush: "That's it. We n00k j00."

more like "here..." "WE KNOW YOU HAVE TONS MORE DAMMIT" "...no..." "THATS IT DIE!"

Anyway; this wasn't completely serious. And yes that was trolling raysia. I expected better out of you. :wink:

I hope you don't mind, but I just underlined the misleading lies in your post here.
You gotta admit, Bush is one smart player in this game of politics.

He knows how to give his enemies exactly what they say they want but know could cripple them. he knows how to call a bluff, and how to show his true cards.

Let's look at some smart plays he's done in office.

UN Reso 1441:
Bush: "Hey Saddam, give us your weapons or we'll bomb you"
Saddam: "here, here is 2 chemical weapons. happy?"
Powell: "Come on man, we know you have tons more."
Saddam: "..."
Minister of Information: "We do not have nor have we ever had any chemical weapons!"
Powell: "right..."
Bush: "That's it. We n00k j00."
Saddam: "Yeah, yeah whatever.. I'll just sit here and do nothing, you won't bomb me... no US president has the balls to do it."
Bush: "Oh yeah?" *bombs Iraq*

Saddam:
Dems: "Where's Saddam? We went into Iraq for Saddam, where is he?"
Bush: "...we're still looking, give us a break..."
Dems: "You won't find him. You went into this war for nothing!"
Bush: *saddam is captured* "BAM!"
Dems: "uhh... Oh... crap... we Just spent a couple months cmpaigning about that... well, umm, he wasn't that important anyway! What can we fall back on now?"

Iraq for Oil?:
Dems: "Bush led us to war for oil!"
Bush: "...you mean that oil we're not exporting?"
Dems: "...the oil you gave Halliburton the contract for!"
Bush: "Halliburton has earned it in the past... even Clinton can tell you that..."

Bush's service record:
Dems: "Bush was AWOL!"
Bush: "no... I wasn't"
Dems: "Bush was AWOL! he has no proof!"
Bush: "Really?"
Dems: *month later* "Bush was AWOL!"
Bush: *gives everyone photocopies of his records* "BAM!" I underline this cos its still pretty unclear whether he did actually do anything in the National Guard. Technically he did give out photocopies
Dems: "Aww, crap, we just spent a month campaining on this issue... crap! Let's backpedal to... umm, the economy!"

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"

9/11 Commission:
Dems: "Bush did nothing about 9/11!"
Bush: "What could I have done?"
Dems: "Dick Clark says you didn't care about Al Qaeda!"
Bush: "Of course I did, what are you talking about?"
Dems: "Then why won't you let Condi Testify?"

Condoleezza Rice:
Dems: "Let Condy Rice Testify!"
Bush: "No, thats against policy."
Dems: "Oh, come on... you're just hiding something."
Bush: "Really? Fine, Condy, go testify."
Condy: "We didn't know they would attack."
Dems: "Crap! Well what about that August PDB?"

The August PDB:
Dems: "That PDB says we knew Osama would attack the US with planes!"
PDB: "Osama is going to hijack a plane to help some terrorists escape."
Bush: "See? nothing to do with plane crashing."
Dems: "*^!#$*! What else do we have?! Let's keep making up stuff!"

Next thing they make up:
Dems: "Blah blah blah!!!"
Bush: :roll:
Dems: "Blah blah blah, BLAH!"
Bush: "blah? Blah. BAM!"
Dems: "#&*%!.....blah!"

"Unilateralism":
Dems: "We need UN support in Iraq!"
Bush: "Really? Hmm, I seem to recall asking for it, but they all bailed on us..."
Dems: "We can't do this alone!"
*Japan and some others join in*
Bush: "There."
*Japanese get killed and kidnapped*
Dems: "Get them out of there!"
Bush: :roll:

Censorship of Iraqi Newspapers:
Dems: "Why did you censor them for being Anti-US?!"
Bush: "Because they told the Iraqi civillians that they should kill us on sight..."
Kerry: "But these guys are intelligent people! If they have a message, it should be heard!"
Kerry: "Umm, you know, except of course if that message is to Kill us..."
Kerry: "But censoring them is bad if we're going to give power to them!"
Kerry: "But they're encouraging the riots in Falujah(sp)."
Kerry: "Shut up! I'm trying to make a point here!"
Kerry: "Don't try to censor me!"
Bush: "....."
Republicans: LOL

I'm seeing a trend here. It seriously looks like Bush knows how to play this game, and make his enemies look like paranoid fools.

Do you think this trend will carry on? Will it happen with WMDs? Osama? Gay marriage?

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.I have no trouble believing that Bush could get paid for work he didn't do, he was a CEO for a while there.

I also think it would have taken more than a cup of coffee during those years before he was sober enough to fly, but never mind.

wow the world knows what the term wanker means? :P

Ok ok...The french would say "Wankeurs" and the Swedes "Vankörs"

Photo copies of paycheck stubs don't mean squat.

Unless of course they found somehting new....

Last I heard as well there was a bounty to be paid to anybody who can prove they served with him at the time. Last I heard no takers.

Even the base commander said he don't remember him "I would remember a Luet. from Texas"Why does it matter so much? It is a total non-issue. You guys are scraping for anything at the bottom of the barrel.

Anyway, back to what Resi said, since I never rebuttled him:

Ummm... but Saddam DID do something, he began to disarm. And we bombed his ass anyway, killing millions of innocent Iraqis. Which President Clinton also did, pre-Lewinsky. Saddam: "here, here is 2 chemical weapons. happy?"
Powell: "Come on man, we know you have tons more."
Saddam: "..."
Minister of Information: "We do not have nor have we ever had any chemical weapons!"
Powell: "right..."
Bush: "That's it. We n00k j00."

Maybe you should continue this conversation
Bush: Saddam, its the WMD's that Rumsfield gave you in the 80s. The same ones the US helped you use on the Kurds
SaddaM: oh those, and thanks for lying to the kurds about helping them overthrow me. If it wasn't for you guys, i'd be taken out 10 years ago and those kurds would be alive
Bush: well your helpig me get elected so we'll call a spade a spade.

America isn't nearly the first Nation to wish for the demise of a former ally. Different Presidents at different times in history had foreign policies that may condtradict or be the opposite of anothers. It reminds me of a saying, "Nations have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies" Just think of the changing relationships between America, the Soviet Union, and Germany in the past.

Ah, Well, let me try and do that...

First off... On your intial arguments... The back and forth bits, Its over simplifaction, that usually can get a lot of people upset. Especially if its slanted a certain way. As for an actual counter, well, on this one:

UN Reso 1441:
Bush: "Hey Saddam, give us your weapons or we'll bomb you"
Saddam: "Yeah, yeah whatever.. I'll just sit here and do nothing, you won't bomb me... no US president has the balls to do it."
Bush: "Oh yeah?" *bombs Iraq*

My personally oppinion is that Saddam actually 'thought' he did have WMD's I mean the guy was Delusional, and you can't deny that.. so what if they guy, totally crazed.. wanted the world to think he had WMD's, and maybe he did have a few, maybe even a few nasties ones..but he gave the apperance that perhaps he has 100 times... So.. if Saddam feels threatend, and trys to disarm, we think hes bluffing because We have begun to belive what he belives.. that he has 100's of WMDs... (this is just my opinion)

Remember, he didnt allow UN inspectors in until the US was knocking on his door - and even then, it was not with unfettered access. In fact, in the 11 years between Desert Shield and the latest operations, he never allowed unfettered access - which is what the res called for. But I guess that's just semantics used by the Cons...:roll:

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.

My husband was a clerk in Ft. Hood in '66 and he knows that the armed forces was consistantly out of date regarding deductions, changes in pay, etc.
Overall they were very innefficient. It sometimes took 9-10 months to catch up, so yes indeed Bush could have kept getting pay and pay stubs even if he was AWOL.

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.

My husband was a clerk in Ft. Hood in '66 and he knows that the armed forces was consistantly out of date regarding deductions, changes in pay, etc.
Overall they were very innefficient. It sometimes took 9-10 months to catch up, so yes indeed Bush could have kept getting pay and pay stubs even if he was AWOL.

Thanks for that info! I wondered about such things when the story broke...

How about my flight info question? Valid?

Actually, pay stubs in the military count for everything - it's direct evidence that you were paid for military service. Hence, we're told to keep all our LES (Leave and Earnings Statements) and to keep the most recent on hand at all times.

My husband was a clerk in Ft. Hood in '66 and he knows that the armed forces was consistantly out of date regarding deductions, changes in pay, etc.
Overall they were very innefficient. It sometimes took 9-10 months to catch up, so yes indeed Bush could have kept getting pay and pay stubs even if he was AWOL.

Thanks for that info! I wondered about such things when the story broke...

How about my flight info question? Valid?

Hubby is out at the moment, but I did find this: They've released all the files.

If those are truly all the files in existence, either a dog somewhere has a curiously selective taste for microfiche, or the records have been tampered with - and that's a felony. No evidence of the Flight Inquiry Board that would have been convened when he was suspended from flying. No DD214 or NGB 22. No Officer Effectiveness Report (OER) from 1973. No flight logs, among a pilot's most important records. No attendance sheets, photographs, or unit rosters. And still zero evidence of any actual duty between May 1972 and April 1973.
From here: http://www.awolbush.com/faq.asp
Hope that helps.
Ess

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"


Clinton didn't loose 3 million jobs. ;)

During the clinton administation, the creation of jobs was a result of the boom of the internet and computer companies such as Microsoft, owned by Bill Gates and others. More people were working and paying taxes which resulted in large surpluses. Bill Clinton's economic policies had nothing to do with this. Clinton sought to break up "monopolies" which resulted in the loss of jobs. Since Bush has taken office 3 million jobs have been lost, but the loss of jobs began before the Bush tax cuts were even implemented. Let's not pretend that 9/11 and two Wars have had no effect on the economy either. Yet despite this, several economic indicators have soared to unprecedented heights under the Bush Economy.

Look, I'm not even going to get involved in thread that claims Bush is smart, frankly he is not. I'm just going to say my piece and leave it at that.

He wouldn't have gotten to where he was if it wasn't for his father and his rich oil company connections. He wouldn't have even gotten into the university (college) he did without his families influence. The man has had everything given to him on silver platter, I thought you Americans admired the self made man? Bush certainly is not.

Anyway, I suppose Raysia has swolled what the US media is telling him without looking at it independantly. That little dialogue proves nothing, Bush looks as stupid as ever to those of us without the benefit of Fox news.

Also, Bush has held the least press conferences of any modern president, why do think that his? It's because his 'advisors' don't want to give him too many chances to make himself look stupid.

Check out this website -

http://www.dubyaspeak.com/puredubya.shtml


BTW - During the election campaign inwhich Bush was elected I paid close attention the man and came across plenty of other examples of his "intelligence", so I haven't gotten all my information from one source, such as the website above. There was actually a documentary on it here years ago, funny yet disturbing at the same time.

Don't start with the 'liberal' (that's actually offensive to an Australian with my political leanings) name calling, I haven't had a go at conservatives.

No offence Raysia

bump

Bush "sold" the war on the "imminent danger" of "weapons of mass destruction". They haven't been found.

Yeah, Bush and everyone else who was convinced that Saddam had WMDs. No country was disputing that before the war. And you're right, they have not beed found. Maybe they will be, maybe the won't.

While the UN was ignored, the US now seeks UN aid.

Well that's hardly true. I seem to remember Bush going to the UN to ask them to do something. I seem to remember the UN passing a resolution about the matter. I seem to remember the UN sending in more inspectors to verify that Saddam had disarmed. And then I seem to remember Colin Powell testifying in front of the UN. And I seem to remember several countries out of the UN helping the US out.

That doesn't sound like ignoring to me, but it might sound like putting the US safety above the political machinations of countries like France.

Several other nations, mine included (Australia) were "invited" (Pressured ?) to join the "Coalition of the Willing". To now be disparaged for doing so is insulting and demeaning.

Where was Australia disparaged?

Maybe you should continue this conversation
Bush: Saddam, its the WMD's that Rumsfield gave you in the 80s. The same ones the US helped you use on the Kurds
SaddaM: oh those, and thanks for lying to the kurds about helping them overthrow me. If it wasn't for you guys, i'd be taken out 10 years ago and those kurds would be alive
Bush: well your helpig me get elected so we'll call a spade a spade.

Huh? You can't possibly believe any of that now, can you?

Clinton didn't loose 3 million jobs. ;)

And to be fair, Clinton didn't have to deal with a major terrorist attack on US soil, nor did he deal with much of the aftermath of the internet stock crash.

A WAN engineer working at StarBucks is not exactly employeed.

He's counted as employed if he's no longer looking for a job. If he's still looking then he's not counted as employed. Seems to me if the guy's happy enough at Starbucks and not looking anywhere else, then he should be considered employed.

Also, are we talking manufactoring or are we talking the shrubs McDonalds and BurgerKing are in the manufactoring sector definition of jobs.

Or how about aerospace? Suddenly it's a good time (again) to be in Southern California if you work in aerospace. And after all the defense cuts in the 90s many engineers were out on their ass. It's good to see it picking up again. I hear Raytheon just put out job requests for 1000 engineers. Sounds like jobs to me.

Now if he can bost another 300000 jobs created next reporting. Then he will have more to brag about....

I'll keep that in mind. From what I've been hearing there's a pretty good chance of that. I suppose you'll change your mind if there are another 300,000 jobs created by the next report?

No Bush is not doing that great...however he's proving to be as problematic for Kerry as Clinton was for Bush I.

Hubby is out at the moment, but I did find this: They've released all the files.

If those are truly all the files in existence, either a dog somewhere has a curiously selective taste for microfiche, or the records have been tampered with - and that's a felony. No evidence of the Flight Inquiry Board that would have been convened when he was suspended from flying. No DD214 or NGB 22. No Officer Effectiveness Report (OER) from 1973. No flight logs, among a pilot's most important records. No attendance sheets, photographs, or unit rosters. And still zero evidence of any actual duty between May 1972 and April 1973.
From here: http://www.awolbush.com/faq.asp
Hope that helps.
Ess

Try posting a link to a more "mainstream" news source. I don't think the people at "awolbush.com" have anything to lose by outright misrepresenting the truth.

As I understand it, Bush wasn't flying at that time, so there would be no flight records.

God, cut the guy a break. A couple of people remember him being there, and for them to remember something like that over 30 years ago, that's pretty good.

Can you prove that you were employed between May 1972 and April 1973? I'll bet the only way you could do it (assuming you're old enough) is by pay stubs.

Clinton didn't loose 3 million jobs. ;)

And to be fair, Clinton didn't have to deal with a major terrorist attack on US soil, nor did he deal with much of the aftermath of the internet stock crash.


True. But he didn't help things but going on this economy is terrible right after entering the white house. Stock market started dropping after that. But then it used to drop everytime Ford fell down the stairs ;)

A WAN engineer working at StarBucks is not exactly employeed.


He's counted as employed if he's no longer looking for a job. If he's still looking then he's not counted as employed. Seems to me if the guy's happy enough at Starbucks and not looking anywhere else, then he should be considered employed.


Ahhh how short sided of me. You see I don't think like a Republican.
Ever think he has to take that job because he has no choice? So how is a $90K with insurence Engineer getting paid $16K with no insurence show the economy is improving? These are 2 people I know.....

Also, are we talking manufactoring or are we talking the shrubs McDonalds and BurgerKing are in the manufactoring sector definition of jobs.

Or how about aerospace? Suddenly it's a good time (again) to be in Southern California if you work in aerospace. And after all the defense cuts in the 90s many engineers were out on their ass. It's good to see it picking up again. I hear Raytheon just put out job requests for 1000 engineers. Sounds like jobs to me.
[/quote]

I was once in areospace. The facility I was at had 39000 people when I hired in. It fell to 13000 by Clinton. With Bush it now has about 300 people.

Now if he can bost another 300000 jobs created next reporting. Then he will have more to brag about....


I'll keep that in mind. From what I've been hearing there's a pretty good chance of that. I suppose you'll change your mind if there are another 300,000 jobs created by the next report?

I will belive it when I see it. Some of the job creation is because companies are willing to gamble that it will improve. We hired 12 people for the gamble. However, I know they will toss them and a few others if the economy tanks.

With the job exporting. It just might. The Repubs forget that if you reduce a families income, they aren't going to be spending much nomatter how much stuff get cheaper. For that matter is their ever a noticble drop?

Last year my company offloaded a bunch of insurence costs on us. Arguement to keep payments cheap. This year it doubled.

My vendors have setup in India and :shock: My support contracts still go up in costs!

As I have said before. When I see the people I know returned to work(they are good at what they do) I will belive the economy is better.

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.

I'm going with this one personally.

To be honest, this one would be way to easy.. and way to much of a headache at the same time. ;)

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"


Clinton didn't loose 3 million jobs. ;)

During the clinton administation, the creation of jobs was a result of the boom of the internet and computer companies such as Microsoft, owned by Bill Gates and others. More people were working and paying taxes which resulted in large surpluses. Bill Clinton's economic policies had nothing to do with this. Clinton sought to break up "monopolies" which resulted in the loss of jobs. Since Bush has taken office 3 million jobs have been lost, but the loss of jobs began before the Bush tax cuts were even implemented. Let's not pretend that 9/11 and two Wars have had no effect on the economy either. Yet despite this, several economic indicators have soared to unprecedented heights under the Bush Economy.

Ahhh are you a Republican? I hear that logic all the time. "You know it takes 10 years for the effects of an economic policy to be noticed. So it was really Reagans Policies that led to Clintons Surplus!" Which suddenly changes to "Well it was Clintons policies that caused the job losses" What happened to the 10 years?

The so called boom was largely the part of the auditing fraud which by the way you don't see the shrub in a big hurry to punish. At most these guys will get a couple years in prision and let on on good behavier. Care to make a wager that the shrubs school buddy "Kenny Boy" will ever see a cell? Be in one for very long?

I always remembered the Shrubs very first speech were he went on and on about how terrible the economy was and guess what the stock market fell.

Hm. It's interesting that everyone is shying away with how Bush has treated people of color, homosexuals, and women. What are his policies on that? Of course the Democrats won't go into much on the race issue because that is a touchy subject.

*sigh*

I am interested in what was meant by the Gay Marriage question posed in the first post.

In the long run though, there isn't really much use in arguing about politics (dialogues are better!) because arguing doesn't really accomplish anything.

For me the fact is that Bush lied. He is a liar.

OH! And PUH-LEASE "cut the guy some slack"? People were up in arms about a stain on a blue dress, a complete witch-hunt! (Yes, yes I know Clinton lied in court) but the reason he was there in the first place was ridiculous.

Besides I am an Irish Catholic with ties to Boston...How do you think I am going to vote? :wink:

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.

I'm going with this one personally.

To be honest, this one would be way to easy.. and way to much of a headache at the same time. ;)LOL and like I said, I don't intend to troll, but it'd be nice if one of you more intelligent libs offered a counter :)

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.

I'm going with this one personally.

To be honest, this one would be way to easy.. and way to much of a headache at the same time. ;)LOL and like I said, I don't intend to troll, but it'd be nice if one of you more intelligent libs offered a counter :)

hehe, well when I see one of you more intelligent conservatives make a real argument that isn't filled with lies, half truths and spin.. I might just do that :P

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.

I'm going with this one personally.

To be honest, this one would be way to easy.. and way to much of a headache at the same time. ;)LOL and like I said, I don't intend to troll, but it'd be nice if one of you more intelligent libs offered a counter :)

hehe, well when I see one of you more intelligent conservatives make a real argument that isn't filled with lies, half truths and spin.. I might just do that :PLies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)

Hubby is out at the moment, but I did find this: They've released all the files.

If those are truly all the files in existence, either a dog somewhere has a curiously selective taste for microfiche, or the records have been tampered with - and that's a felony. No evidence of the Flight Inquiry Board that would have been convened when he was suspended from flying. No DD214 or NGB 22. No Officer Effectiveness Report (OER) from 1973. No flight logs, among a pilot's most important records. No attendance sheets, photographs, or unit rosters. And still zero evidence of any actual duty between May 1972 and April 1973.
From here: http://www.awolbush.com/faq.asp
Hope that helps.
Ess

Try posting a link to a more "mainstream" news source. I don't think the people at "awolbush.com" have anything to lose by outright misrepresenting the truth.

As I understand it, Bush wasn't flying at that time, so there would be no flight records.

God, cut the guy a break. A couple of people remember him being there, and for them to remember something like that over 30 years ago, that's pretty good.

Can you prove that you were employed between May 1972 and April 1973? I'll bet the only way you could do it (assuming you're old enough) is by pay stubs.

Why? As I said earlier my great-uncle was punished for being AWOL for 3 days.

As I have heard, nobody has come forth and said "Hey I remember him, we used to drink/shoot pool/whatever all the time"

She has explained why the paystub argument is not valid.

The question of memories is also valid as the soldiers in my family always had stories about the guys they served, fought along side, and watched die.

Yet, there does not seem to be anybody who remembers the Future President of the United states. The guy whose father was a congressman and an ambassador.

And we're saying... who cares? Why are you guys spending all this effort to literally scrape at the bottom of the GWB barrel to try to find SOMETHING on this guy? Everyone has something on them. even me, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about him being AWOL.

But the thing is, you have to scrape at nothing to get stuff on GWB.

With John Kerry, all you have to do is dip your hand in and your covered in crap you can use against him.

Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)Check yourself, my man, let's stick to the facts. If you want unsubstantiated opinions, I've got a crapload of 'em, so let's not go there.

Now, on a completely different string, do you think that Bush cares about the common man? Assuming your answer is yes (because it sure as hell won't be no), when has he proved that fact? Don't say his little undercover Thanksgiving in Iraq, because those aren't the common man, those are his pawns. I'm talking the common working American who Bush works so hard to tax instead of the rich man telling them what to do. Face it, Bush is classist and doesn't care about the bottom man.

Notice I'm not saying Kerry would be any better, because he wouldn't. Dean and Nader would, but Dean has that horrendous screaming problem and Nader is just too damn Green to run effectivly.
Okay, he's going to say something about "trickle down". Just watch, people!

And we're saying... who cares? Why are you guys spending all this effort to literally scrape at the bottom of the GWB barrel to try to find SOMETHING on this guy? Everyone has something on them. even me, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about him being AWOL.

But the thing is, you have to scrape at nothing to get stuff on GWB.

With John Kerry, all you have to do is dip your hand in and your covered in crap you can use against him.

Sorry but I am more of a centrist then as you like to say "LIBERAL"

You guys are funny in your attempts to make that sound like a 4 lettered word.

As to "scraping" the bottom of the barrel.

I seem to recall the Neo-Cons spouting about the "Integrity of the White House." "The Moral Character of the President" because Willy got some in the Oval Office.

Sounds like a valid question of character and integrity when a soldier goes AWOL for a year.

Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)Check yourself, my man, let's stick to the facts. If you want unsubstantiated opinions, I've got a crapload of 'em, so let's not go there.

Now, on a completely different string, do you think that Bush cares about the common man? Assuming your answer is yes (because it sure as hell won't be no), when has he proved that fact? Don't say his little undercover Thanksgiving in Iraq, because those aren't the common man, those are his pawns. I'm talking the common working American who Bush works so hard to tax instead of the rich man telling them what to do. Face it, Bush is classist and doesn't care about the bottom man.

Notice I'm not saying Kerry would be any better, because he wouldn't. Dean and Nader would, but Dean has that horrendous screaming problem and Nader is just too damn Green to run effectivly.
Okay, he's going to say something about "trickle down". Just watch, people!

To add on what he said.

A radio show mentioned that IRS audits of corporations was cut in half but Audits of the common(middle class) househosld is up 11%.

Pssst... Raysia.. Failure to counter your argument does not equal a lack of an agument against it.. maybe people are just staying away? And, if someone does counter.. it may be a bunch of heated stuff.. so.. yea, Just trying to mellow things abit.

I'm going with this one personally.

To be honest, this one would be way to easy.. and way to much of a headache at the same time. ;)LOL and like I said, I don't intend to troll, but it'd be nice if one of you more intelligent libs offered a counter :)

hehe, well when I see one of you more intelligent conservatives make a real argument that isn't filled with lies, half truths and spin.. I might just do that :PLies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)

Now use your head Ray.. do you really believe that? Do you really believe every one who doesn't agree with you is wrong? Do you believe that maybe just for a moment maybe you're wrong about some things, some times? You can't honestly say that the post you started this thread with wasn't spin, can you? Just be honest.

Listen no one is right all the time. I'm certainly not. I make mistakes all the time. There are certain absolutes we all feel we know in our lives... but to lump every one in one pot is not only wrong, but it's also a show of ignorance don't you think? You can't honestly say that Bush hasn't made some mistakes. Any one could take the exact same examples you posted and turn them around (spin) and make Bush look like a complete fool. Just like you have tried to do here only on the other side.

Any way, I don't feel like really getting into this. It's a pretty loaded thread that is total spin on your part. Sure I could turn it around and put it back on you.. but I won't. I just can't be bothered to be honest.

Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)

Now use your head Ray.. do you really believe that? Do you really believe every one who doesn't agree with you is wrong? Do you believe that maybe just for a moment maybe you're wrong about some things, some times? You can't honestly say that the post you started this thread with wasn't spin, can you? Just be honest.

Listen no one is right all the time. I'm certainly not. I make mistakes all the time. There are certain absolutes we all feel we know in our lives... but to lump every one in one pot is not only wrong, but it's also a show of ignorance don't you think? You can't honestly say that Bush hasn't made some mistakes. Any one could take the exact same examples you posted and turn them around (spin) and make Bush look like a complete fool. Just like you have tried to do here only on the other side.

Any way, I don't feel like really getting into this. It's a pretty loaded thread that is total spin on your part. Sure I could turn it around and put it back on you.. but I won't. I just can't be bothered to be honest.I'm going to have to side with Stephy on this one, Rays. There are multiple reasons you don't want to make posts like that one, the foremost being in my opinion that it makes you look like a cocky asshole. The secondmost being that it's pretty much guaranteed flambaiting, and the last thing you need to be handing out now is fodder for people to throw back at you. This is EXACTLY the reason I told you to drop this thread, but you couldn't. And don't give the cop-out "but people were responding to it, and I had to respond!", you actually BUMPed this thing. If I didn't know better, I'd say you had a death wish. Or DEATwish, as it were.

Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)

Now use your head Ray.. do you really believe that? Do you really believe every one who doesn't agree with you is wrong? Do you believe that maybe just for a moment maybe you're wrong about some things, some times? You can't honestly say that the post you started this thread with wasn't spin, can you? Just be honest.

Listen no one is right all the time. I'm certainly not. I make mistakes all the time. There are certain absolutes we all feel we know in our lives... but to lump every one in one pot is not only wrong, but it's also a show of ignorance don't you think? You can't honestly say that Bush hasn't made some mistakes. Any one could take the exact same examples you posted and turn them around (spin) and make Bush look like a complete fool. Just like you have tried to do here only on the other side.

Any way, I don't feel like really getting into this. It's a pretty loaded thread that is total spin on your part. Sure I could turn it around and put it back on you.. but I won't. I just can't be bothered to be honest.I'm going to have to side with Stephy on this one, Rays. There are multiple reasons you don't want to make posts like that one, the foremost being in my opinion that it makes you look like a cocky asshole. The secondmost being that it's pretty much guaranteed flambaiting, and the last thing you need to be handing out now is fodder for people to throw back at you. This is EXACTLY the reason I told you to drop this thread, but you couldn't. And don't give the cop-out "but people were responding to it, and I had to respond!", you actually BUMPed this thing. If I didn't know better, I'd say you had a death wish. Or DEATwish, as it were.

Yea you two are right. So I will withdraw from this one! ;)

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?
You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work?
You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?
You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special?
You mean the average american who wanted to see terrorism dealt with, and not appeased?
You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?
You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?
You mean the average energy employees who are desperate for new forms of energy like Hydrogen fuel cells?
You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?
You mean the average elementary school kid who wants to say "Merry christmas!" without being suspended?
You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor?
You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota?
You mean the average american who actually has moral values and wants to see them represented in office?

Yeah, Bush has done nothing for them....

[/rant]

As for steph: Do I have the capacity to conceive that I'm wrong? yes, I just don't happen to see it yet.

So far, I have never seen you refer to anything the right has said as "truth," nor have I about the left.

I believe we are at an empass here :)

The secondmost being that it's pretty much guaranteed flambaiting, and the last thing you need to be handing out now is fodder for people to throw back at you. This is EXACTLY the reason I told you to drop this thread, but you couldn't. And don't give the cop-out "but people were responding to it, and I had to respond!", you actually BUMPed this thing. If I didn't know better, I'd say you had a death wish. Or DEATwish, as it were.Yeah, umm... the point of every debate thread is to have a debate without flaming. I even specifically stated I don't want to see any flaming here.

If somehow you see this thread as an invitiation for personal attacks and flames, then I am seriously missing something here, and I should in no way be responsible if you start flaming out of the blue.

I asked for an intelligent and civilized debate... is it that hard?

What ever happened to a reasonable self controlled debate?

Although i do side with the "right" there are many things i think that we should be doing. We need clones. I say we clone 10 people, just to prove what happenes. If they are normal, then i guess either

A. we killed god
B. god doesnt mind
C. there never was one
D. LOOKOUT FOR THAT LIGHNING BOLT!!! zap

Its so easy to solve some of these debates too.

I mean, Bush might have been away from his camp and all, but does that make you AWOL? He was never actually listed as AWOL .

Scarry Kerry concerns me more, Id rather have Edwards as the Dem. Nominee, or even Dean. At least Edwards was a likeable guy. Im not trying to be mean, but Kerry scares the bejeebus out of me. the way he looks, talks, and his general personality make me think "eww eww eww". And im even praying for a Sharpton miracle, or for Kerry to screw up big time and Edwards comes back in.

I generally dont like debating polotics online because you can say what you want without really seeing the other person, without seeing how they react, without being able to choose the words that fit the emotional read you are getting from them.

Also Cheny scares me alot too, i wanted Bush to pick McCain or Allan Keys as his running mate, not Cheny. He reminds me of Yoda. The Bionic Yoda with a greasy demeanor and a slick sly sense.

When I see Bush though i dont feel anything bad towards him at all. I think he might need to fire his speachwriter, but other than that all I want from him is for him to really speak his mind about things, not use pre-made scripts like everyone else. (and i think kerry should shoot his speachwriter if that writer told him to say "I voted For the 87 billion, before i voted against it")

End Opinion Session #002 Politik

What ever happened to a reasonable self controlled debate?

Although i do side with the "right" there are many things i think that we should be doing. We need clones. I say we clone 10 people, just to prove what happenes. If they are normal, then i guess either

A. we killed god
B. god doesnt mind
C. there never was one
D. LOOKOUT FOR THAT LIGHNING BOLT!!! zap

Its so easy to solve some of these debates too.

I mean, Bush might have been away from his camp and all, but does that make you AWOL? He was never actually listed as AWOL .

Scarry Kerry concerns me more, Id rather have Edwards as the Dem. Nominee, or even Dean. At least Edwards was a likeable guy. Im not trying to be mean, but Kerry scares the bejeebus out of me. the way he looks, talks, and his general personality make me think "eww eww eww". And im even praying for a Sharpton miracle, or for Kerry to screw up big time and Edwards comes back in.

I generally dont like debating polotics online because you can say what you want without really seeing the other person, without seeing how they react, without being able to choose the words that fit the emotional read you are getting from them.

Also Cheny scares me alot too, i wanted Bush to pick McCain or Allan Keys as his running mate, not Cheny. He reminds me of Yoda. The Bionic Yoda with a greasy demeanor and a slick sly sense.

When I see Bush though i dont feel anything bad towards him at all. I think he might need to fire his speachwriter, but other than that all I want from him is for him to really speak his mind about things, not use pre-made scripts like everyone else. (and i think kerry should shoot his speachwriter if that writer told him to say "I voted For the 87 billion, before i voted against it")

End Opinion Session #002 PolitikHmm... I'm conservative, and I'm pro-"spare-part" cloning.


I guess that makes me more republitarian

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?
You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work?
You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?
You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special?
You mean the average american who wanted to see terrorism dealt with, and not appeased?
You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?
You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?
You mean the average energy employees who are desperate for new forms of energy like Hydrogen fuel cells?
You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?
You mean the average elementary school kid who wants to say "Merry christmas!" without being suspended?
You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor?
You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota?
You mean the average american who actually has moral values and wants to see them represented in office?

Yeah, Bush has done nothing for them....

[/rant]Ancient chinese proverb: "You talk a lot, but say nothing." :wink:
You didn't give me a single example of anything Bush did, you just listed a bunch of disadvantaged people.
Yeah, umm... the point of every debate thread is to have a debate without flaming. I even specifically stated I don't want to see any flaming here.

If somehow you see this thread as an invitiation for personal attacks and flames, then I am seriously missing something here, and I should in no way be responsible if you start flaming out of the blue. You basically slandered liberals while giving no facts. While that isn't flaming, that's certainly flambaiting, which is exactly what I accused you of.
I asked for an intelligent and civilized debate... is it that hard?
-----------------------------------------------------
Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :)

All right one last time....

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?

Actually my wife had a business that did quite well in spite of taxes. She had to close it when the Shrub took office and his economy oooopsss Bill's economy wiped out the business.


You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work?

Wow all the families I know have to have the woman work.


You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?

Since when did Starbuks or McDonalds stop hiring?


You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special?

Ahh so it was gay people that causes the 60%(or is it higher?) divorse rate in this country.


You mean the average american who wanted to see terrorism dealt with, and not appeased?

Well the verdict is not out on sadaam yet.

You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?

Yea damn them! They won't let the Christians set up in the school system!

You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?

Yea! With the new salaries that are coming from job exportation! Families might be able to afford Yugos(are they still made? ;) )

You mean the average energy employees who are desperate for new forms of energy like Hydrogen fuel cells?

Sorry but the EU is building them faster then we ever will! They get in the way of oil profits.


You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?

He can do that! But he gets a problem when he starts sermonising in the hallways are expecting everybody to have prayer time. Heck if he did that in some of the hallways here, he would only get an FU! back! ;)


You mean the average elementary school kid who wants to say "Merry christmas!" without being suspended?

Ahm I don't seem to recall anybody getting suspended for saying that.


You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor?


Hmph. My companies bosses are worth about 150 Mill and I think our cleaning crews are illegals.

There is farming near by and yet our homeless aren't in any hurry to work there.

Here's a hint. Homelessness is not always realated to job loss. Some of it is mental and addiction problems. Oh wait goverment should cut that kind of support money right?


You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota?


Well there is an arguement there.


You mean the average american who actually has moral values and wants to see them represented in office?

"moral" values....politician......moral vaules.....politician. I am waiting to for a politician to have a moral system that is not based on profit and power. Do you know of any?


Yeah, Bush has done nothing for them....


Yea it sounds right.

Well you just attaked him too. You singled out snippets at the end, thats like taking a recorded message saying "we should ban all the flaming people" and turing it into "we should flame people"

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?
You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work?
You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?
You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special?
You mean the average american who wanted to see terrorism dealt with, and not appeased?
You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?
You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?
You mean the average energy employees who are desperate for new forms of energy like Hydrogen fuel cells?
You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?
You mean the average elementary school kid who wants to say "Merry christmas!" without being suspended?
You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor?
You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota?
You mean the average american who actually has moral values and wants to see them represented in office?

Yeah, Bush has done nothing for them....

[/rant]Ancient chinese proverb: "You talk a lot, but say nothing." :wink:
You didn't give me a single example of anything Bush did, you just listed a bunch of disadvantaged people.The last line was sarcasm... Bush has or is working on affecting every one of those topics I listed.
Yeah, umm... the point of every debate thread is to have a debate without flaming. I even specifically stated I don't want to see any flaming here.

If somehow you see this thread as an invitiation for personal attacks and flames, then I am seriously missing something here, and I should in no way be responsible if you start flaming out of the blue. You basically slandered liberals while giving no facts. While that isn't flaming, that's certainly flambaiting, which is exactly what I accused you of.
I asked for an intelligent and civilized debate... is it that hard?
-----------------------------------------------------
Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :) *sigh* I was not aware I had to give facts when presenting a laid-back summary that made Bush's enemies look like fools...

As for steph: Do I have the capacity to conceive that I'm wrong? yes, I just don't happen to see it yet.

So far, I have never seen you refer to anything the right has said as "truth," nor have I about the left.

I believe we are at an empass here :)

Life is not black & white Ray.. yet you treat it as if it was. Where is your inner grey? Find it, then you will have found some sense of balance instead of just spouting the party line. You well know I could go on a complete diatribe of what is wrong with Bush, you've seen me do it many times. I thought you had decided to take the high ground? I guess not. *Sigh* :?

Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?

Tax cuts for all! If you're rich, anyway. They need it most, after all...

You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work?
You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?

Wee! Now the guy can take TWO minimum wage-jobs! 'Cause everyone knows women have no place in the workplace... :roll:

You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special?

If a marriage doesn't feel special, I'd say that's due to the ones involved. Just ask Britney :D

You mean the average american who wanted to see terrorism dealt with, and not appeased?

Oh, wonderful. Osama is still unfound and instead Bush bombed a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?

Wasn't it judges that decided the 2000 election? So much for democratic process.

You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?

Yeah, that's worked really well so far. What's the oil price now?

You mean the average energy employees who are desperate for new forms of energy like Hydrogen fuel cells?

Ignoring the Kyoto protocol and slashing the Environmental Protection Agencies budget with half a billion really shows his care for the environment.

You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?
You mean the average elementary school kid who wants to say "Merry christmas!" without being suspended?

And the average Jewish kid that wants to shout "Shalom!" and "Happy Hanukka!"

You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor?

Yeah, jobs aren't outsourcing at all...

You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota?

A lot like the person that never got into Harvard and Yale because Bush's daddy wanted him to go there.

You mean the average american who actually has moral values and wants to see them represented in office?

You mean moral values like not lying and all people being treated equally?


Yeah, Bush has done nothing for them....


Couldn't agree with you more... :wink:

Raysia's rant is just hilarious! It was mildly sexist, strongly christian, and classist.

Are you by any chance an upper class white male conservative Christian?

EDIT: :shock: Opps, I seriously think we should have a president thats a computer, aren't computers shiny? :o

Raysia's rant is just hilarious! It was mildly sexist, strongly christian, and classist.

Are you by any chance an upper class white male conservative Christian?

It's all downhill from here, isn't it.. :|

Raysia's rant is just hilarious! It was mildly sexist, strongly christian, and classist.

Are you by any chance an upper class white male conservative Christian?

It's all downhill from here, isn't it.. :|

Here come da pain!

Any way, I don't feel like really getting into this. It's a pretty loaded thread that is total spin on your part. Sure I could turn it around and put it back on you.. but I won't. I just can't be bothered to be honest.

Same here - not touching this with a 10-foot pole. I address substance, and this has the consistency of chicken broth.

[REJECTED]

You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?
You mean the average elementary school kid who wants to say "Merry christmas!" without being suspended?


You've probably been out of the public school system for a long while, so it's excusable that you have a warped view of how they treat christian students. I was in the public school system as recently as 2001, so maybe I can help provide you with a more accurate perspective.

The students do not get in trouble for saying "God Bless us Everyone." In fact they have an annual student led rally they would hold at the flagpole, and I never once saw the national guard show up and spray them with the firehose. They may get in trouble for SCREAMING it in the hallways, but I have a feeling you're not advocating repealing anti-screaming behavioral rules in public schools. I mean you could get in trouble for screaming ANYTHING in the hallways, I hope you and President Bush don't think that the phrase "God bless us everyone" should be the single exemption.

Now the TEACHERS (If there's any justice) may get in trouble for endorsing religion to their students, but they're government employees, so that's a seperate issue better left unaddressed for now.

And obviously the 'merry christmas' bit is ridiculous hyperbole and not meant to be taken seriously, so I'll say no more about it, except that I said merry christmas to faculty and students alike every year from kindergarten to graduation without so much as a dirty look in response.

I love it when Christians get all paranoid about getting their rights to free speech limited. It's cute! Especially since the irony is so lost on them.

:lol:

:lol:

About Bush's national guard service...
I think it's safe to say that the people chastizing Bush now are the same ones who voted for Billy Boy in '96, despite the fact that his competitor (Dole) was a Vietnam vet and Clinton hid in Europe until the war ended. Ah, the irony :lol:

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?
The average man doesn't want to start up his own buisness, he works for one already, and Bush is clearly more big buisness than little buisness. Unless you mean the average guy who wants to start his own Fortune 500

You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work? The typical guy doesn't have a family of 5. The typical person is 50% likely to be a woman, and the 1950s version of america where the wife stays home and cooks and looks after the kids is gone, and for a good reason IMO

You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?
Well I deny that Bush has created more jobs, but even so the vast majority of people already do have jobs.

You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special? Society has already devalued marriage enough that allowing gays to marry is not going to have an impact, and even if it did, someones marriage (whether its good or bad) doesn't have an effect on someone elses and even if it did, your own happiness isn't a reason for you to be allowed to oppress the minority, in the same way as if 51% of people voted to have you poked hard with sticks it still wouldn't be acceptable.

You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?Like the ones on the Supreme court who appointed Bush in violition of democratic principles? I don't know what you mean here, so expand.

You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?
How about every American, no wait, scratch that, everyone in the WORLD who wants to be able to breathe clean air?

You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?That average kid is a bit of a weirdo in my opinion, and odds are will get the shit kicked out of him for being so strange regardless of any government laws about religious expression.

You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor? This is exactly what Bush is encouraging. He did the amnesty thing for hispanics, so I don't know how you can say this.

You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota? AA isn't quota based, so thats already wrong, and the average american isn't affected by affirmitave action, only a very, very tiny minority, and its still less than the sons of alumini affimitive action that got Bush his Yale place.

In short Raysia, the things that you list that Bush has done (where you actually get it correct) aren't so much good things for the average guy, but benefit a virtual freakshow of non-oppressed minorities.

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Oh... you mean the common guy who wants to start up his own business without being taxed to death?
The average man doesn't want to start up his own buisness, he works for one already, and Bush is clearly more big buisness than little buisness. Unless you mean the average guy who wants to start his own Fortune 500

You mean the typical guy who wants to support his family of 5 without having to make his wife work? The typical guy doesn't have a family of 5. The typical person is 50% likely to be a woman, and the 1950s version of america where the wife stays home and cooks and looks after the kids is gone, and for a good reason IMO

You mean the average guy on the street who all of a sudden can find more jobs available to him?
Well I deny that Bush has created more jobs, but even so the vast majority of people already do have jobs.

You mean the average man and woman who want their marriage to mean something special? Society has already devalued marriage enough that allowing gays to marry is not going to have an impact, and even if it did, someones marriage (whether its good or bad) doesn't have an effect on someone elses and even if it did, your own happiness isn't a reason for you to be allowed to oppress the minority, in the same way as if 51% of people voted to have you poked hard with sticks it still wouldn't be acceptable.

You mean the average american who likes to have a say in the democratic process, instead of being cast aside by activist judges?Like the ones on the Supreme court who appointed Bush in violition of democratic principles? I don't know what you mean here, so expand.

You mean the average american who wants to see oil prices reduced so he can afford to drive his car?
How about every American, no wait, scratch that, everyone in the WORLD who wants to be able to breathe clean air?

You mean the average Christian kid who wants to scream "god bless us everyone" in the halls of his school?That average kid is a bit of a weirdo in my opinion, and odds are will get the shit kicked out of him for being so strange regardless of any government laws about religious expression.

You mean the average homeless guy who can't get a job because the lower-class businesses are buying cheap immigrant labor? This is exactly what Bush is encouraging. He did the amnesty thing for hispanics, so I don't know how you can say this.

You mean the average american who was declined from a university because the college had to fulfill an affirmative action quota? AA isn't quota based, so thats already wrong, and the average american isn't affected by affirmitave action, only a very, very tiny minority, and its still less than the sons of alumini affimitive action that got Bush his Yale place.

In short Raysia, the things that you list that Bush has done (where you actually get it correct) aren't so much good things for the average guy, but benefit a virtual freakshow of non-oppressed minorities.

Bush really knows how to play this game
Or rather Rove does. I really think you give Bush too much credit. He is a puppet. All he can do independently is dodge. Thats a game at which he is truly the master.

About Bush's national guard service...
I think it's safe to say that the people chastizing Bush now are the same ones who voted for Billy Boy in '96, despite the fact that his competitor (Dole) was a Vietnam vet and Clinton hid in Europe until the war ended. Ah, the irony :lol:But the same is true the other way round, those supporting Dole for his record are now with Bush. The thing is, the circumstances of the country have changed dramaticly since '96, and a war service record might be more important now than it was then.

I think that Dole's service is a great thing (BTW, it was in WW2 and not Vietnam as you said, he was one of those ones fighting to haul my country's ass out of the fire.), but there is one pretty screwed up thing about it. His right arm and hand, as most people will know, no longer function as an effect of his paralysis caused while on duty. But he chooses to disguise this fact by constantly carrying a pen around in his hand. Now, for someone so proud of his war record (as rightly he should be), for him to disguise it like that seems... bizzare, and possibly reveals something about the attitude towards disabled people in the minds of the kinds of people he hangs out with. Much like their attitude to gays, its sorta "I don't mind, just as long as they don't throw it in my face". I think that that is very wrong.

Bush really knows how to play this game
Or rather Rove does. I really think you give Bush too much credit. He is a puppet. All he can do independently is dodge. Thats a game at which he is truly the master.Rove is a criminal genius. I wish he was on our side.

Economy:
Dems: "Bush lost 3 million Jobs!"
Bush: "Yeah, 9/11 happened, they'll come back..."
Dems: "We need to get this economy going!"
Bush: *few months later* "There are more jobs now than there ever was in Clinton's watch... what now?"
Dems: "Crap crap crap! What else? We just spent a few more months on that! How about 9/11?"


Clinton didn't loose 3 million jobs. ;)

During the clinton administation, the creation of jobs was a result of the boom of the internet and computer companies such as Microsoft, owned by Bill Gates and others. More people were working and paying taxes which resulted in large surpluses. Bill Clinton's economic policies had nothing to do with this. Clinton sought to break up "monopolies" which resulted in the loss of jobs. Since Bush has taken office 3 million jobs have been lost, but the loss of jobs began before the Bush tax cuts were even implemented. Let's not pretend that 9/11 and two Wars have had no effect on the economy either. Yet despite this, several economic indicators have soared to unprecedented heights under the Bush Economy.

Ahhh are you a Republican? I hear that logic all the time. "You know it takes 10 years for the effects of an economic policy to be noticed. So it was really Reagans Policies that led to Clintons Surplus!" Which suddenly changes to "Well it was Clintons policies that caused the job losses" What happened to the 10 years?

The so called boom was largely the part of the auditing fraud which by the way you don't see the shrub in a big hurry to punish. At most these guys will get a couple years in prision and let on on good behavier. Care to make a wager that the shrubs school buddy "Kenny Boy" will ever see a cell? Be in one for very long?

I always remembered the Shrubs very first speech were he went on and on about how terrible the economy was and guess what the stock market fell.

No, I'm not a Republican and I never said a thing about Ronald Reagan. I was talking about the decline of the economy from 2000-2001. I was also saying that private enterprise created economic prosperity during the 1990s. Businesses did well in spite of clinton. Al gore himself even said that the private sector is "the engine that drives our economic growth." When the financial sector suffered a downturn in 1990, it trickled down. There were no more bonuses, overtime, stock options and their were layoffs. Later in the 1990s, the Internet Boom took place. After 9/11, hillary clinton said "come to New York and spend money." She knew if people stopped coming to New York and spending money, businesses would fail and the economy in New York would suffer. 9/11 hurt all sectors of the economy.

The ruling to break up Microsoft, led by clinton and reno, didn't happen until June 2000. There is a direct time line link between the decline of the NASDAQ and the ruling to break up Microsoft. As the NASDAQ declined many Internet companies failed or downsized. As a result, millions of jobs were lost and government revenues declined.

You wrote: "I always remembered the Shrubs very first speech were he went on and on about how terrible the economy was and guess what the stock market fell" There was a reason he warned us about what was to come.

EDIT: http://www.stentorian.com/politics/economy.html

people lisen why are democrats ceap on trining to look bad? and the meadya to :x

people lisen why are democrats ceap on trining make bush look bad? and the meadya to :x

Bush really knows how to play this game
Or rather Rove does. I really think you give Bush too much credit. He is a puppet. All he can do independently is dodge. Thats a game at which he is truly the master.Rove is a criminal genius. I wish he was on our side.Not me--maybe in jail, but not on our side. I feel dirty enough having the likes of James Carville on our side. I feel even dirtier knowing that Dick Morris used to be on our side--that god he converted.

Bush - smart.

Oxymoron: does not compute.

Bush - smart.

Oxymoron: does not compute.And why is that? Have Al Franken and Michael Moore convinced you so?

Heh... those people have no right to call ANYONE stupid :P

Bush - smart.

Oxymoron: does not compute.And why is that? Have Al Franken and Michael Moore convinced you so?

Heh... those idiots have no right to call ANYONE stupid :P

[quote="Raysian Military Tech"]You gotta admit, Bush is one smart player in this game of politics.

He knows how to give his enemies exactly what they say they want but know could cripple them. he knows how to call a bluff, and how to show his true cards.

Politics are NOT a GAME GET IT?!?!?!?!

Bush - smart.

Oxymoron: does not compute.And why is that? Have Al Franken and Michael Moore convinced you so?

Heh... those idiots have no right to call ANYONE stupid :PLook how quickly Raysia can divert our attention from the point actually made and start attacking people who weren't even mentioned.

Now answer one of the many points I made at the top of this page.

do you think that Bush cares about the common man?Ancient chinese proverb: "You talk a lot, but say nothing." :wink:
You didn't give me a single example of anything Bush did, you just listed a bunch of disadvantaged people.The last line was sarcasm... Bush has or is working on affecting every one of those topics I listed.
Oh, I know that. I just ment that you didn't really answer my question, you just typed out a long list of disadvantaged people, none of whom are actually the common man. You just gave me some list of Christians and small-business owners and men who can't keep their pants on. The two correct examples of common men you gave Bush did absolutely nothing about. So let's narrow the topic and make it really straightforward, because you're obviously incapible of handling free-form thought with one or two guidelines.

When has the President ever done a single thing for the benefit of minorities? The majority walks all over them, and Bush does nothing to allieviate that.
Yeah, umm... the point of every debate thread is to have a debate without flaming. I even specifically stated I don't want to see any flaming here.

If somehow you see this thread as an invitiation for personal attacks and flames, then I am seriously missing something here, and I should in no way be responsible if you start flaming out of the blue. You basically slandered liberals while giving no facts. While that isn't flaming, that's certainly flambaiting, which is exactly what I accused you of.
I asked for an intelligent and civilized debate... is it that hard?
-----------------------------------------------------
Lies, Spin, Deceit, Half-Truths, Bullcrap... all words you'll find in the liberal thesaurus under the word 'truth' :) *sigh* I was not aware I had to give facts when presenting a laid-back summary that made Bush's enemies look like fools...Well, you could at least provide examples. However, you should think before over-generalizing or slandering like that, and maybe, just maybe, consider the opposing point of view.

Maybe gays are human, Raysia. Maybe they are. Chew on that for a bit. :wink:

Bush - smart.

Oxymoron: does not compute.And why is that? Have Al Franken and Michael Moore convinced you so?

Heh... those idiots have no right to call ANYONE stupid :PI have to give you Michael Moore, at least what he's become these days, but Al Franken isn't an idiot.

Take a look at Bill O'Reily of Fox News, though. He yelled out Franken without even giving him a chance to talk for an entire show.

Fair and balanced my left ass cheak.

True. But he didn't help things but going on this economy is terrible right after entering the white house.

Then you're either forgetting or weren't paying attention at the time. Don't you remember the catch-phrase of the Clinton 2002 campaign? "It's the economy, stupid." Clinton road to power complaining about the economy. You can't say he didn't.


He's counted as employed if he's no longer looking for a job. If he's still looking then he's not counted as employed. Seems to me if the guy's happy enough at Starbucks and not looking anywhere else, then he should be considered employed.


Ahhh how short sided of me. You see I don't think like a Republican.
Ever think he has to take that job because he has no choice? So how is a $90K with insurence Engineer getting paid $16K with no insurence show the economy is improving? These are 2 people I know.....

You ignored what I said.
If he was continuing to look for a job then he's considered unemployed. If he took the job because he had no choice, fine, but he should continue to look for a job. It's simple. When you're looking for a job you're considered unemployed in the employement statistics. When you stop looking, you're considered employed.

I was once in areospace. The facility I was at had 39000 people when I hired in. It fell to 13000 by Clinton. With Bush it now has about 300 people.

If you were in aerospace then you certainly understand the volitile nature of hte contracts. Reagan was very big on aerospace and the 80s were a very good time to be in it. However, Clinton ended a lot of that. Could be the contracts at the facility you worked at dried up and that's why there aren't too many people there. You can't judge the economy by one facility.


I'll keep that in mind. From what I've been hearing there's a pretty good chance of that. I suppose you'll change your mind if there are another 300,000 jobs created by the next report?

I will belive it when I see it.

Fair enough.

The Repubs forget that if you reduce a families income, they aren't going to be spending much nomatter how much stuff get cheaper. For that matter is their ever a noticble drop?

How do you mean that? Everyone realizes that more jobs are good, and we've had record job growth last month.

As I have said before. When I see the people I know returned to work(they are good at what they do) I will belive the economy is better.

Maybe you should tell your friend to apply somewhere. I have no idea where you live or what your friends do, but Raytheon in El Segundo just put out a request for 1000 engineers.

Hm. It's interesting that everyone is shying away with how Bush has treated people of color, homosexuals, and women. What are his policies on that? Of course the Democrats won't go into much on the race issue because that is a touchy subject.

And what are his policies on that?

I guess you're saying that Bush hates blacks and women -- which explains his choices for Secretary of State and National Security Advisor.

In the long run though, there isn't really much use in arguing about politics (dialogues are better!) because arguing doesn't really accomplish anything.

Certainly not the way you "argue."

For me the fact is that Bush lied. He is a liar.

And this is an argument?

OH! And PUH-LEASE "cut the guy some slack"? People were up in arms about a stain on a blue dress, a complete witch-hunt! (Yes, yes I know Clinton lied in court) but the reason he was there in the first place was ridiculous.

Do you even KNOW the reason Clinton was in court in the first place?

Besides I am an Irish Catholic with ties to Boston...How do you think I am going to vote? :wink:

I think you're going to drink your koolaid like a good little liberal.

hehe, well when I see one of you more intelligent conservatives make a real argument that isn't filled with lies, half truths and spin.. I might just do that :P

And how about mine?

Why? As I said earlier my great-uncle was punished for being AWOL for 3 days.

Did he get paid for those 3 days?

As I have heard, nobody has come forth and said "Hey I remember him, we used to drink/shoot pool/whatever all the time"

Pay more attention. Two people have come forward saying they remember him being there all the time. Not bad for 30+ years ago. Bush wasn't even there very often.

She has explained why the paystub argument is not valid.

What is it that you want, exactly?

The question of memories is also valid as the soldiers in my family always had stories about the guys they served, fought along side, and watched die.

I guess I just forgot about that big war in Tenessee back in the early 70s where lots of soldiers died. I imagine it would be hard for the soldiers to remember who they fought with.

Yet, there does not seem to be anybody who remembers the Future President of the United states.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. I mean, if I met the future president of the US I'm sure I'd remember him -- at least that is, if I were psychic.


The guy whose father was a congressman and an ambassador.

Sigh. How many people do you think even knew that? And Bush wasn't there very often, nor was he there very long.

Can you name everyone in your math class when you were a freshmen in high school?

Kept getting errors when trying to post....