NationStates Jolt Archive

3 Japanese lives on stake.
7 Chinese have been kidnapped, probably because Japanese generally looks like Chinese.

WHAT THE HECK! CHINA DIDN'T EVEN SEND TROOPS INTO IRAQ! :shock:

This is one hard stake driven into Japan's neo-Imperialist ideology. How they react will affect deeply East Asian politics.

"THE US NEEDS MORE INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT!"

"GET THAT INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT OUTTA HERE!"

make up your mind!

Fuck em

if i were the iraqi's id be very careful not to piss off china, cause they dont give a shit what the world thinks of them and would probably just kill everyone in iraq and claim the oil

The South Korean president has already been ousted from power.

The Japanese PM is bombarded by protestors, domestic and international, every day

The US is going to lose these two Asian allies.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Then again, for the Iraqi, _any_ foreigner is a good target because of the media exposure. If those kidnappings were quietly ignored, the people would probably be released within days.

And anyway, you can't negotiate with terrorists.

now, im going to get serious for a moment.

With me probably being the only one here that has worked with the JGSDF (Japanses Army), I would just like to say that their military is set up very nicely to handle SASO (stability and support operations) and they are a very valuable asset to the Iraqi people with the great work they are of doing for that country.

Besides, Japan is an economic powerhouse, it is time they give back to the world and do a little humanitarian work.

Dragons Bay, you're probably in a better position than most to know this--is Koizumi screwed? Is he out of power at the next election because of this situation?

Dragons Bay, you're probably in a better position than most to know this--is Koizumi screwed? Is he out of power at the next election because of this situation?

Is Koizumi the current Japanese PM? *Sorry, I only know his Chinese name, they make more sense than English names :oops: *

Alas, I'm not an expert on Japanese politics, but I can establish a pattern: a political leader today is not going to be voted out domestically (the majority, anyway) because of his foreign policy or stance in war. It's usually domestic problems like the economy, or corruption (think Israel and South Korea)
But Japan's economy has not seen a lot of revival in the past four years. There is quite a chance he will be voted out.

Forgive my ignorance, as I know embarassingly little about Asian politics, but have the restrictions the Allies imposed on Japan in regards to defence been lifted or something?

Forgive my ignorance, as I know embarassingly little about Asian politics, but have the restrictions the Allies imposed on Japan in regards to defence been lifted or something?As far as I know, there are no restrictions imposed by the Allies left, but there are provisions written into the Peace Constitution of Japan that prohibit the use of the Japanese Armed Forces in foreign conflict--at least that's what I understand.

Forgive my ignorance, as I know embarassingly little about Asian politics, but have the restrictions the Allies imposed on Japan in regards to defence been lifted or something?As far as I know, there are no restrictions imposed by the Allies left, but there are provisions written into the Peace Constitution of Japan that prohibit the use of the Japanese Armed Forces in foreign conflict--at least that's what I understand.

They still aren't allowed an air force, I think. And certain kinds of fleet. They've always been able to have military for civil defense though, like for when zoo animals escape.

They're prepared to amend the constitution to allow them greater freedom in terms of military. :cry:

The US has been pushing for a stronger Japanese military for awhile now.

Probably as a balance to China as well as a regional peacekeper.

I think it's a bad idea.

Japan has a culture unique in the modern world, in which the highest identification of the individual is with the nation. The closest comparison would be imperial Rome.

Such a nation will not leave a resource, military or otherwise, unused if it would advance the nation.

We should have never gone to Iraq in the first place. It's not our place, the sending of troops was entirely unconstitutional, and it was against the will of the population.

Unfortunately, though this may spell the end for Koizumi if things get much wrose, it will not spell the end for the LDP.

I seriously dout We(America) will loose japan as an ally i mean japan has so much trade with us its not even funny almost every where i turn i see japanese anime or japanese sushi bar heck almost all of my frineds are anime junkees and looking at japans history a few hostages arent gonna deter them and if you didnt already here the hostages were supposed to be realesed..cant remember when though -ponders- Any way if i were a Nations leader and some people were taken hotage id attempt to nagotiat but if they didnt like my turms i would consider the hostages as casualties as cold as that may be thats what i would do. So far i belive the only allies we have lost are ones who never liked us any way (namly france germany and russia)

We should have never gone to Iraq in the first place. It's not our place, the sending of troops was entirely unconstitutional, and it was against the will of the population.

Unfortunately, though this may spell the end for Koizumi if things get much wrose, it will not spell the end for the LDP.

I KNEW IT! IT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT AGAIN! Japanese people are nice by nature, isn't it? Or are there black sheep, like every other culture in the world? :roll:

Sorry, I must insist: Diaoyu Islands belong to China. :P

as a brit, they should get there arses outta there. i didnt even know china was INVOLVED! :shock: :cry: :x those iraqi basards....

anywya, buhbi

[code:1:a693dbf0c8]Animetia
Bureaucrat


Founded: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 0[/code:1:a693dbf0c8]


How did you do that?

Forgive my ignorance, as I know embarassingly little about Asian politics, but have the restrictions the Allies imposed on Japan in regards to defence been lifted or something?

In the 1950's many of the restrictions were lifted due to Japan's strategic locations in the cold war. From then on, they were allowed to have an army for "defensive purposes."

I may be wrong, but it was my understanding there was no FIXED WING airforce....

And for those who think France, Russian and Germany "never liked" the US, I suggest you go back and relearn your history.

I also LOVE the latest propaganda here.... "Celebrating 150 years of Japanese trade and culture with the US"..... yes.... if you forget WWII and the fact that the US' first contact with Japan was hardly friendly.

Forgive my ignorance, as I know embarassingly little about Asian politics, but have the restrictions the Allies imposed on Japan in regards to defence been lifted or something?

In the 1950's many of the restrictions were lifted due to Japan's strategic locations in the cold war. From then on, they were allowed to have an army for "defensive purposes."Although I still don't see how sending troops to Iraq can be a defensive move. :roll:

I may be wrong, but it was my understanding there was no FIXED WING airforce....

And for those who think France, Russian and Germany "never liked" the US, I suggest you go back and relearn your history.

I also LOVE the latest propaganda here.... "Celebrating 150 years of Japanese trade and culture with the US"..... yes.... if you forget WWII and the fact that the US' first contact with Japan was hardly friendly.
In that case I don't understand that the Americans aren't more gratefull for Pearl Harbor. :lol:

I may be wrong, but it was my understanding there was no FIXED WING airforce....

And for those who think France, Russian and Germany "never liked" the US, I suggest you go back and relearn your history.

I also LOVE the latest propaganda here.... "Celebrating 150 years of Japanese trade and culture with the US"..... yes.... if you forget WWII and the fact that the US' first contact with Japan was hardly friendly.
In that case I don't understand that the Americans aren't more gratefull for Pearl Harbor. :lol:
I'd be a little more careful about gloating about tragedies.

Forgive my ignorance, as I know embarassingly little about Asian politics, but have the restrictions the Allies imposed on Japan in regards to defence been lifted or something?

In the 1950's many of the restrictions were lifted due to Japan's strategic locations in the cold war. From then on, they were allowed to have an army for "defensive purposes."Although I still don't see how sending troops to Iraq can be a defensive move. :roll:

They are there in a reconstructive role (nuances that make it legal udner the constitution, Japan has a large socialist movement which ensures that hte peace clause is kept in the constitution)

The Japanese Constitution puts no limits on foreign deployment. It simply removes Japan's right to use agressive war as a matter of policy... they cant be the first declare war or threaten to declare war. The Diet has passed bills allowing for deployment of Japanese forces as part of UN or US operations, in non-combat roles... and as part of the war on terrorism.

Basically, it took three or four years from when the US drafted the Japanese constitution to the point where they demanded that Japan maintain military forces in increasing numbers. The Japanese people, according to most surveys, are against their nation having a substantial military, but American demands and other factors have led them to devellop a rather large military machine. They have land, sea, and air forces, limited by restrictions on aircraft carriers, amphibious landing ships, and long-range bombers (though, not on long range missiles), but they rank quite high in the world, in terms of military power.

Japan has a vested interest in a stable Iraq... they import all of their oil, much of it from Iraq, and so they have no desire for uncertainty in terms of its politics.

As for Japanese politics... the political system is structured so that low-population conservative farm districts, supporting the Liberal Democratic Party, have the same clout as high-population city districts who have more interest in change. Koizumi may not get booted out over this because there is no alternative capable of beating him in an election. If he is defeated, it will either be a fluke of politics, or his own party will shift to support a different faction of itself, depriving him of support.

3 Japanese lives on stake.
7 Chinese have been kidnapped, probably because Japanese look like chinese
Poor Chinese/Japenese! :shock:

Hi, this is one of my first posts but please don't dismiss it out of hand. I just wanted to say that I entirely agree with New Auburnland on this issue.
The Japanese forces are very good at what they do and have been involved in similar roles a number of times over the past decade. If they do pull out then the Iraqi people will suffer through a notably more difficult reconstruction process.
While a lot of people, including myself, have a number of very pertinent and important questions about the way the war was presented to the public we have to accept that we can't undo what was done and that running away and saying that we were against it all along is simply not an option now. Even if you didn't agree with the war we now have a duty to clear up our own mess and create sufficient stability for the country to prosper.
Thanks for reading this and, hopefully, not flaming me.

PS: the Japanese national character is too militaristic to be allowed an army? Yeah, look at those Germans, spoiling for a fight. They rebuilt their army and look at them: couldn't stop them going to war all the time...

So what if our first encounter with japan wasnt so great niether was our first encounters with the germans (namly their mercenaries at the revolutionary war) the french they could car less only reason they helped the revolt agiant britain is becuase they didnt want britain to have a huge empire on both continents. The russains...i know almost nothing about russia except that the space program they are trying to run and that for a time it was practicly ran by the red mofia and alot of their leaders were insane and that they still think were are still trying to spy on them (that submarine insadent a few years ago) Curse my horible spelling :!:

Hi, it's me again:

While the debate rages on let me leak some good news:

The 7 Chinese were released, because they were Chinese, not Japanese.

A person who claimed to be mediator said that the Japanese hostages would not be killed.

Phew, it was a scare...

Back to the debate:

There is a slight difference between Germany and Japan, in terms of repentence after the Second World War. Germany has gracefully admitted its devastating roles in the War and have actively participated in trying to make the world a better place (ie. joining EU so that Western Europe would never have to fight each other again; the black sheep of Europe today would be Britain). On the other hand, the Japanese have stubbornly refused to apologise for the horrific atrocities they committed, for example the Nanjing Massacre and forced prosititution of Korean, Chinese, and Southeast Asian women. Their PM pays homage to a shrine that holds the graves of fourteen executed war criminals every year. They try to declare Diaoyu Islands as their territory as in imperialist, expansionist move. I say, this country is not fit to send troops of any kind to any other place in the world.

if i were the iraqi's id be very careful not to piss off china, cause they dont give a shit what the world thinks of them and would probably just kill everyone in iraq and claim the oil
lol :lol:

Look at the wonderful job America did with Japan! Now they're joining up on our side to fight with us, just like the Iraqis will join up with us when we fight someone else in 50 years.

Look at the wonderful job America did with Japan! Now they're joining up on our side to fight with us, just like the Iraqis will join up with us when we fight someone else in 50 years.

Ah, that's a new viewpoint, which might happen, cuz remember World War 2, the Japanese were also totally fanatic. What changed it? An atomic bomb....

Maybe if America drops an atomic bomb on Fallujah, everything will be solved. :D Brilliant?

NOT!

Japan was hated by the world then.
Iraq is embraced by many many countries and foreign individuals.

On the subject of USA and Asian relations...

Here is a very strange piece of North Korean propaganda broadcasted in South Korea:

http://www.robpongi.com/pages/comboFUCKINGUSAHI.html

Dragons Bay, you're probably in a better position than most to know this--is Koizumi screwed? Is he out of power at the next election because of this situation?

Sorry that should go to Chiyokota. Ciyokota is a Japanese national (AFAIK).
I have lived in Japan 13 years and probably have a better handle on Japan than Dragons Bay. (Sorry Dragons no offence meant! ;))

As for Koizumi, yes he probably is out. Certainly he will be in trouble in the upcoming Diet elections (Lower House in June and Upper House in July).

now, im going to get serious for a moment.

With me probably being the only one here that has worked with the JGSDF (Japanses Army), I would just like to say that their military is set up very nicely to handle SASO (stability and support operations) and they are a very valuable asset to the Iraqi people with the great work they are of doing for that country.

Besides, Japan is an economic powerhouse, it is time they give back to the world and do a little humanitarian work.

Yeah! Someone who actually seems to know something about the SDF! (I have found so much ignorance posted about it here!)

We should have never gone to Iraq in the first place. It's not our place, the sending of troops was entirely unconstitutional, and it was against the will of the population.

Unfortunately, though this may spell the end for Koizumi if things get much wrose, it will not spell the end for the LDP.

Yes I agree. Every Japanese I have asked has also pretty much agreed.

And a general note on the constitution for those who have been bringing it up: article 9 of the Japanese constitution is the restriction on the Japanese military. The US or other outside powers did not impose restriction (except of course that the constitution was in essence imposed). Article 9 prohibits Japan from haveing military forces. Since the early 50s, at the bequest of the US, who was worried about Korea at the time, Japan has quietly been ignoring this with a little fiction. The SDF (the Japanese military) is self restricted to what they refere to as non-offensive forces.

Sorry that should go to Chiyokota. Ciyokota is a Japanese national (AFAIK).
I have lived in Japan 13 years and probably have a better handle on Japan than Dragons Bay. (Sorry Dragons no offence meant! ;))


No problem. I was a bit surprised he asked me that question too. :shock: :wink:

And a photo from today's Mainichi, echoing Dragon's sentiment exactly.

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/photojournal/images/04/13demo267.jpg

(Dragon, don't you love it when the Japanese agree with you? ;) )

I really feel bad for Koizumi.

I think he was trying to do the right thing. SDF forces in Iraq are only doing humanitarian work and the local Iraqis are extremely thankful for their actions. Local leaders (both political and religious) in Samarah have been urging local Iraqis not to act against the US or the Japanese SDF forces.

Koizumi wants to move Japan out of the post-WW2 state which Japan has been stuck in. He wants to prove to the US and the world that they can be responsible and be active players on the world stage.

Now he was placed in a position where he would have to face either the execution of 3 Japanese citizens, or surrender to the terrorists. Surrender to terrorist only encourages them to act more. Everyone, including the leader of the Minshuto party, recognize this.

I seriously dout We(America) will loose japan as an ally i mean japan has so much trade with us its not even funny almost every where i turn i see japanese anime or japanese sushi bar heck almost all of my frineds are anime junkees and looking at japans history a few hostages arent gonna deter them and if you didnt already here the hostages were supposed to be realesed..cant remember when though -ponders- Any way if i were a Nations leader and some people were taken hotage id attempt to nagotiat but if they didnt like my turms i would consider the hostages as casualties as cold as that may be thats what i would do. So far i belive the only allies we have lost are ones who never liked us any way (namly france germany and russia)

Umm, News Flash, Canada and the United States are the worlds largest trading partners and Canada didn't support the war in Iraq on the grounds that it broke international law. While Canada is still an ally of the US, Canada didn't/doesn't support the war in Iraq and didn't send any troops or even political support for it. You can't base support on trade or visa versa.

3 Japanese lives on stake.
7 Chinese have been kidnapped, probably because Japanese generally looks like Chinese.

I can tell the difference :D

I think he was trying to do the right thing. SDF forces in Iraq are only doing humanitarian work and the local Iraqis are extremely thankful for their actions. Local leaders (both political and religious) in Samarah have been urging local Iraqis not to act against the US or the Japanese SDF forces.

Exactly. The Japanese aren't harming anyone over in Iraq. They're actually helping with building infrastructure. But al-Qaida has it's heads too far up itself to realize this.

Who said its Al qaeda?

Its all different manner of people. Some of them are common criminals who were released from prison shortly before the governements fall.
Most are tribesmen who are sick of being pushed around by antsy American troops.

Hi, it's me again:

While the debate rages on let me leak some good news:

The 7 Chinese were released, because they were Chinese, not Japanese.

A person who claimed to be mediator said that the Japanese hostages would not be killed.

Phew, it was a scare...

Back to the debate:

There is a slight difference between Germany and Japan, in terms of repentence after the Second World War. Germany has gracefully admitted its devastating roles in the War and have actively participated in trying to make the world a better place (ie. joining EU so that Western Europe would never have to fight each other again; the black sheep of Europe today would be Britain). On the other hand, the Japanese have stubbornly refused to apologise for the horrific atrocities they committed, for example the Nanjing Massacre and forced prosititution of Korean, Chinese, and Southeast Asian women. Their PM pays homage to a shrine that holds the graves of fourteen executed war criminals every year. They try to declare Diaoyu Islands as their territory as in imperialist, expansionist move. I say, this country is not fit to send troops of any kind to any other place in the world.
This coming from someone in China? *Yawn*

I really feel bad for Koizumi.

I think he was trying to do the right thing. SDF forces in Iraq are only doing humanitarian work and the local Iraqis are extremely thankful for their actions. Local leaders (both political and religious) in Samarah have been urging local Iraqis not to act against the US or the Japanese SDF forces.

Koizumi wants to move Japan out of the post-WW2 state which Japan has been stuck in. He wants to prove to the US and the world that they can be responsible and be active players on the world stage.

Now he was placed in a position where he would have to face either the execution of 3 Japanese citizens, or surrender to the terrorists. Surrender to terrorist only encourages them to act more. Everyone, including the leader of the Minshuto party, recognize this.
Dragons Bay doesn't realize that doing what's right isn't always doing what is popular.

Just in case anyone missed it, the first three were released, but two more hostages have been taken.

This coming from someone in China? *Yawn*

Western prisoners under Japanese rule weren't too good off either. Ever read "Empire of the Sun" by JG Ballard? Ever heard of the Burma "Death Railway"? Bataan "Death March"?

Dragons Bay doesn't realize that doing what's right isn't always doing what is popular.

Of course I realise that. Daily events in my life constantly put myself in conflict with other people.

I think he was trying to do the right thing. SDF forces in Iraq are only doing humanitarian work and the local Iraqis are extremely thankful for their actions. Local leaders (both political and religious) in Samarah have been urging local Iraqis not to act against the US or the Japanese SDF forces.

Exactly. The Japanese aren't harming anyone over in Iraq. They're actually helping with building infrastructure. But al-Qaida has it's heads too far up itself to realize this.

As New Astrolia said, there are all manner of "bad guys" at work in Iraq - criminal gangs, religious gangs, internal and external terrorists, nationalists, tribes, etc.
One goal of extrernal groups is to make the US look bad by helping to destabilizing the place. That is quite possibly why the UN, the Red Cross, and other humanitarian groups have been attacked. But it is not necessarily the reason.

f--- emOh yes. Great, GREAT first post isn't that?? Look at the thought put into it, the sheer power of it! ALL SHOULD BE FILLED WITH AWE AT SUCH A NEWBIE'S GREAT POST!!( and for the weak minded, that was sarcasm)