NationStates Jolt Archive

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?

About 60,000 Americans died in that war, compared to 1.1 million North Vietnamese. I don't call that getting bitchslapped. We left really because we here at home were getting tired of it, and the war really was not popular.

And I believe there were a few American pilots in the Battle of Britain, as well as several from other nations.

Mel gibson is the worst for this kinda thing and Im not talkin about "the passion". Braveheart and the patriot are just so full of lies showing all English people to be contemptable swine who kill innocent people for fun. *Sigh* Nationalist fool.

By the way, its jag-u-ar, not jagwar

About 60,000 Americans died in that war, compared to 1.1 million North Vietnamese. I don't call that getting bitchslapped. We left really because we here at home were getting tired of it, and the war really was not popular.

And I believe there were a few American pilots in the Battle of Britain, as well as several from other nations.Face facts, we got bitch-slapped in Vietnam, casualties notwithstanding. In the end, we failed to complete our objective, which was to keep Vietnam from becoming a communist country, so we lost.

But as to the original point of the thread, most of the Vietnam movies I've seen don't deal with the war in a "who won/who lost" way. They deal with the human cost on the soldiers and on the Vietnamese. I mean, "Apocalypse Now" was a retelling of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness." "Full Metal Jacket" certainly didn't act as though the US came out victorious. And it's been a long time since I've seen them, but neither did "Platoon" or "The Deer Hunter" to name a couple of others.

The U-Boat movie was a sham, no question, but to be fair, most "historical" movies are a sham, no matter who makes them.

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?
h
Have you ever heard of U-505, a german sub captured by Americans. I have actually been aboard the sub in Chicago. They have the actual ENIGMA aboard her.

Abot 'Nam, we kicked ***, but the liberals were panzies and made us pull out

Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?

Okay, I haven't seen the Enigma movie, but it was the British who found it yes. As for Pearl Harbor, if you call that a legitimate historical movie, well, I'll just not get into that discussion, and say that it's not. Also I thought it sucked.

Mel gibson is the worst for this kinda thing and Im not talkin about "the passion". Braveheart and the patriot are just so full of lies showing all English people to be contemptable swine who kill innocent people for fun. *Sigh* Nationalist fool.

You are aware that Mel Gibson is Australian, right? I would find it hard to believe that he would be nationalist for the Americans and Scots if he wasn't actually one of them.

Actually Gibson was born in America and lived in australia for about 20 years though. But the australians also seem to have this little thing against the English. *harumph*
He just dislikes us :cry:

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?
h
Have you ever heard of U-505, a german sub captured by Americans. I have actually been aboard the sub in Chicago. They have the actual ENIGMA aboard her.

Abot 'Nam, we kicked ***, but the liberals were panzies and made us pull out

Actually, the British were the first to capture an ENIGMA machine.

But for my own rant, the USAF did send pilots over to Britain before America's entry into WWII.

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?
dont blame america, blame hollywood! they're the ones you should be hatin' on

Have you ever heard of U-505, a german sub captured by Americans. I have actually been aboard the sub in Chicago. They have the actual ENIGMA aboard her.

Date of recovery of the U-505 and the enigma machine onboard it by American forces: 4th June 1944

Date of recovery of the U-110 and the enigma machine onboard it by British forces: 9 May 1941

About 60,000 Americans died in that war, compared to 1.1 million North Vietnamese. I don't call that getting bitchslapped. We left really because we here at home were getting tired of it, and the war really was not popular.

And I believe there were a few American pilots in the Battle of Britain, as well as several from other nations.

More Viet Nam vets have killed themselves since the war than died during. Just a little fact that makes me giggle.

Several things:
US Pilots fought in the Battle of Britian as volunteers. Much like US, British, and Canadian Volunteers fought in Spain against the Germans, and Nationalist Spanish forces.

In Veitnam the US killed 1.1 million North Vietnamese and nearly half as many VC. Compared to 60,000 lost. It was the overwhelming might of Operations Linebacker I and Linebacker II that forced the Vietnamese to the peace table in Paris, for a ceasefire which lasted for until Nixon resigned.(The NV thought Nixon was nuts.) They didnt know how Ford would react but he seemed a lot more laid back than Nixon was so they forged ahead and conquered the South breaking the ceasefire.

Also, all these movies your watching, I wonder, does it say they're based on true stories? Because if they're not, then they're pure Hollywood. Over drama to show a point(with the case of the Vietnam movies the point being is that the US is full of evil (like the VC were saints.)

Oh and in the Patriot, those incidents acctually took place. The Brits didnt treat the Colonists like regular soldiers and showed them no quarter whatsoever. Granted some parts were over dramatazied but then again the movie is called THE PATRIOT and is based on the American Revolution. Stop trying to dig a deeper meaning into a movie than there really is. You want the truth? Go watch a documentary.

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?

We all know that most of what Hollywood spews forth is utter crap... Why even watch it?


As for those of you who declare that Vietnam was a massive victory:
American soldiers in Vietnam came under fire twice a day (on average). Your president made a statement where he blamed the "difficulties" they were having on "stoned troops"...
Does it sound like a victory?

As for those of you who declare that Vietnam was a massive victory:
American soldiers in Vietnam came under fire twice a day (on average). Your president made a statement where he blamed the "difficulties" they were having on "stoned troops"...
Does it sound like a victory?

It depends how you look at it. Okay, under fire twice a day. Oh yeah, it's a war, what do you expect.

A book I read claimed that a lot of the troops were stoned, and you wouldn't exactly expect them to fight that well.

However, I still wouldn't call it a victory either, mainly because we failed. But from what I know, America was pretty much doomed there from the getgo.

Face facts, we got bitch-slapped in Vietnam, casualties notwithstanding. In the end, we failed to complete our objective, which was to keep Vietnam from becoming a communist country, so we lost.

I don't know about that... my understanding was that Vietnam was fought to stop the spread of communism i.e. the domino effect. In this sense, vietnam was a success- communism did not spread out of the area. Whether you think this means the war was right, correct or something, is a different question.

Face facts, we got bitch-slapped in Vietnam, casualties notwithstanding. In the end, we failed to complete our objective, which was to keep Vietnam from becoming a communist country, so we lost.

I don't know about that... my understanding was that Vietnam was fought to stop the spread of communism i.e. the domino effect. In this sense, vietnam was a success- communism did not spread out of the area. Whether you think this means the war was right, correct or something, is a different question.

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

Sure. But if preventing the spread of communism was the point of the Vietnam war, and communism didn't spread, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory. The US got what it wanted.

Face facts, we got bitch-slapped in Vietnam, casualties notwithstanding. In the end, we failed to complete our objective, which was to keep Vietnam from becoming a communist country, so we lost.

I don't know about that... my understanding was that Vietnam was fought to stop the spread of communism i.e. the domino effect. In this sense, vietnam was a success- communism did not spread out of the area. Whether you think this means the war was right, correct or something, is a different question.One major goal of the war was to keep Vietnam itself from turning communist, though, and in that we utterly failed.

I just recently say the documentary "The Fog of War" and Robert McNamara mentioned that he discovered when he returned to Vietnam recently and talked to his Viitnamese counterparts that the US could never have won the war because to Vietnam, this was a war of independence. They were fighting the US because they felt the US was trying to take the place of France and make Vietnam part of their empire. McNamara was in disbelief, because he knew that that wasn't the US intention, and yet, that's what the North Vietnamese believed, and they would have fought to the last man, woman and child to get the US out. I highly recommend the film.

Face facts, we got bitch-slapped in Vietnam, casualties notwithstanding. In the end, we failed to complete our objective, which was to keep Vietnam from becoming a communist country, so we lost.

I don't know about that... my understanding was that Vietnam was fought to stop the spread of communism i.e. the domino effect. In this sense, vietnam was a success- communism did not spread out of the area. Whether you think this means the war was right, correct or something, is a different question.

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.


Communism did however spread in the region after Vietnam fell...is everyone forgeting Pol Pot?

Communism did however spread in the region after Vietnam fell...is everyone forgeting Pol Pot?

The US was worried about it spreading OUT of the region, particularly into India. Cambodia and Vietname were not real conceivable threats, nor would they have upset the balance of powers. Idonesia or India, on the other hand, may have cause serious problems were they to 'turn'.

About 60,000 Americans died in that war, compared to 1.1 million North Vietnamese. I don't call that getting bitchslapped. We left really because we here at home were getting tired of it, and the war really was not popular.

And I believe there were a few American pilots in the Battle of Britain, as well as several from other nations.

More Viet Nam vets have killed themselves since the war than died during. Just a little fact that makes me giggle.

Makes you giggle?...makes you giggle?....it's a good thing this is online...I'm sure every member of my Vietnam Veterans's of American detachment would like to correct you on that.

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.

I second that. If the fact that veterans have committed suicide makes you giggle, that is a disgusting reaction.

While Britain should get credit for stealing the first Enigma machine, it should be noted that both the American and British military were responsible for getting updated code books later in the war. I don't recall any of the movies being mentioned having claimed to be a documentary. I suppose you could watch The Longest Day and get a better interpretation of a war movie. But even that one has significant inaccuracies.

As for Vietnam? The French had been fighting there for years before the American troops arrived. Americans faced a battle hardened enemy with an infrastructure suited for guerilla fighting. American politicans were those responsible for bottling up military decisions, not the liberals, as someone had previously mentioned. Had we been able to fully unleash the military, the NVA would have been bombed out of existence. But when you make decisions thousands of miles away about what can or can't be designated as target zones, you create a maelstrom of confusion.

Also, all these movies your watching, I wonder, does it say they're based on true stories? Because if they're not, then they're pure Hollywood.

True, at least U-571 has the grace at the end to tell the real story. Although I heard from some reliable source or other that it was only because a Lieutenant on board the HMS Bulldog (the ship that captured the first Enigma) heard about it during filming and went and had a go in person at the Director....

my Mom wont let we whach realy any veit nam movies for a little wile :oops:

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

Sure. But if preventing the spread of communism was the point of the Vietnam war, and communism didn't spread, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory. The US got what it wanted.

Sure. But if stopping the sky falling is the point of sacrificing your first-born, and the sky doesn't fall, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory...

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

Sure. But if preventing the spread of communism was the point of the Vietnam war, and communism didn't spread, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory. The US got what it wanted.

Sure. But if stopping the sky falling is the point of sacrificing your first-born, and the sky doesn't fall, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory...

Maybe we should give up on all forms of foreign policy theory? Just go with the flow? It's easy to criticize, but the Western experience of communiusm was that it spread quickly through regions, i.e. the sattelite states. at some point judgements need to be made. Anyways, yes the dominoe theory is problematic, but I don't see why we would call Vietnam a total failure when the (presumably) primary objective was accomplished.

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?
Relax, relax. Hollywood never gets history right. Their latest historical film, The Alamo, I don't wanna see, because they never fail at doctoring the facts. But I will say this. What was in Pearl Harbor that you were reffering to was a true story: an American pilot in the Battle of Britain was shot down over occupied France. Of course, he wasn't in Pearl Harbor later, but they needed it for the plot.

yeah, all history films made by americans are bullshit... but europeans, asians, and south americans stay right on target when it comes to historical films...

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?
Relax, relax. Hollywood never gets history right. Their latest historical film, The Alamo, I don't wanna see, because they never fail at doctoring the facts. But I will say this. What was in Pearl Harbor that you were reffering to was a true story: an American pilot in the Battle of Britain was shot down over occupied France. Of course, he wasn't in Pearl Harbor later, but they needed it for the plot.

There was a plot in Pearl Harbour? I must have slept through that part... :wink:

Anyways, volunteers wasn't unusual in WWII. There were swedes fighting in Finland against the Russians as another example. However, if anyone in Sweden would make a film about how Sweden 'saved' Finland he would be rightly lynched if he ever put his foot in Finland...

There was a plot in Pearl Harbour? I must have slept through that part... :wink:

the 1st half of the movie was pointless! :lol:

There was a plot in Pearl Harbour? I must have slept through that part... :wink:

the 1st half of the movie was pointless! :lol:

And the second half wasn't? I swear, if not for the explosions, that movie would have completely sucked. As it was, it only went up to about 9.5 on the suck scale.

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?"When we were soldiers" Showed the soldiers plight pretty well, Vetinam was just a messy war. Everyone made mistakes.

More Viet Nam vets have killed themselves since the war than died during. Just a little fact that makes me giggle.

Nope. Wrong. An urban legend that has become increasingly exagerated over time.


Given what verifiable data is now available, it would seem reasonable
to estimate that as of 1996, a total of somewhere between 2,000 and 20,000 Vietnam veterans had taken their own lives and that the most probable total is less than 4,000, but in any case does not exceed 1.23% of all Vietnam veteran deaths. (http://www.vwam.com/vets/suicide.html)

(And if the thought of any suicide makes you giggle, you are exhibiting sociopathic behavior.)

most vietnam films i saw showed plenty of Ameircans getting killed, they were sad......but, if you really did any research you'd know that while we did lose the war, it wasnt not because the NVA or VC were any better than us, even if the VC tactics were inventive. We lost the war due to politics infesting the military control over the operations, and ending the effective operations.

Look at the sheer numbers

10 NVA dead for every 1 US Solider

N.Vietnam claimed more KIA's than either South Vietnam or the US

The US had the LOWEST KIA, MIA, POW, and WIA tallies of all three major combatiants

Vietnam was a pointless war and lives were wasted but, please get your facts right before you rant

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?
Relax, relax. Hollywood never gets history right. Their latest historical film, The Alamo, I don't wanna see, because they never fail at doctoring the facts. But I will say this. What was in Pearl Harbor that you were reffering to was a true story: an American pilot in the Battle of Britain was shot down over occupied France. Of course, he wasn't in Pearl Harbor later, but they needed it for the plot.

There was a plot in Pearl Harbour? I must have slept through that part... :wink:

Anyways, volunteers wasn't unusual in WWII. There were swedes fighting in Finland against the Russians as another example. However, if anyone in Sweden would make a film about how Sweden 'saved' Finland he would be rightly lynched if he ever put his foot in Finland...
Agreed on your Finland film example, but I don't think that Pearl Harbor showed it as the Americans winning the Battle of Britain. Perhaps some people got that impression, but I don't think the movie suggests that.
And yes, there's a plot in Pearl Harbor, and it's a Hollywood favorite: a love triangle. A weak plot, but a plot. And certainly more of a plot than that opera, Cats. How did it run on Broadway for so long?

I'm afraid i will have to agree with Kelhsan. The films made by hollywood are a pile of sh*t. They made the enigma film thing, and that was a bull sh*t. We British found the Enigma machine, so how come they tried to make it look like they did? its a sham i tell you, a sham!!!!!!!!!!

I'm afraid i will have to agree with Kelhsan. The films made by hollywood are a pile of sh*t. They made the enigma film thing, and that was a bull sh*t. We British found the Enigma machine, so how come they tried to make it look like they did? its a sham i tell you, a sham!!!!!!!!!!

I'm afraid i will have to agree with Kelhsan. The films made by hollywood are a pile of sh*t. They made the enigma film thing, and that was a bull sh*t. We British found the Enigma machine, so how come they tried to make it look like they did? its a sham i tell you, a sham!!!!!!!!!!

Of course popular flm is crap. It's not supposed to be documentary.

But... perhaps they just learned this technique from you Brits. After all, in 1952 it was the British film The Sound Barrier that was the big hit, although it had a Brit doing it... despite the fact that YAeger had been the one to break it in '47.

:wink:

Thats life.
Hollywood, does what it does for money. It wants succsesful films and Americans don't want to see their won side getting kicked. The worst movie I ever saws french one with english subtitals that our Feench teacher showed us. It had the british getting kicked at Argincourt and Crecy, not only where they years apart, but the british won both battles and Joan of Arc was not their at all. (so much for a bioography of her life.)

The most relistic peice of hollywood history filming was the storming of Omaha beach in Saving Private Ryan, now that was good and historicly accurate.

wtf? we won the battle of agincourt! and i agree with your saving private ryan comment

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

Sure. But if preventing the spread of communism was the point of the Vietnam war, and communism didn't spread, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory. The US got what it wanted.

Sure. But if stopping the sky falling is the point of sacrificing your first-born, and the sky doesn't fall, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory...

Maybe we should give up on all forms of foreign policy theory? Just go with the flow? It's easy to criticize, but the Western experience of communiusm was that it spread quickly through regions, i.e. the sattelite states. at some point judgements need to be made. Anyways, yes the dominoe theory is problematic, but I don't see why we would call Vietnam a total failure when the (presumably) primary objective was accomplished.
"Comminsm spread quickly through regions"? May I ask where did it "spread quickly", aside from E. European nations (and N. Korea)occupied by the Soviet military during WWII and SE Asian nations where the U.S. foolishly opposed national liberation movements, thus pushing them into the arms of China and USSR?

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

Wow somebody learned their history from the movies.

Hmm yet another SOT(school's out troll).

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

Wow somebody learned their history from the movies.

Hmm yet another SOT(school's out troll).
2 Black Forrest,

Your career as a psychic is off to a disastrous start. You will have to do better than that. :twisted:

About 60,000 Americans died in that war, compared to 1.1 million North Vietnamese. I don't call that getting bitchslapped. We left really because we here at home were getting tired of it, and the war really was not popular.

And I believe there were a few American pilots in the Battle of Britain, as well as several from other nations.

A bit like the British in North America 1775-81, the Americans won almost all their battles in Vietnam but had no real victory strategy. Their South Vietnamese ally was hopelessly corrupt and would have collapsed in the mid-60s without American aid. Winning battles won't win you the war...

Of course popular flm is crap. It's not supposed to be documentary.

But... perhaps they just learned this technique from you Brits. After all, in 1952 it was the British film The Sound Barrier that was the big hit, although it had a Brit doing it... despite the fact that YAeger had been the one to break it in '47.

:wink:

If I remeber rightly there was a bit of a cover up on this, apparently there was an idea to share information between britian and the us. But as soon as the british researchers had handed over their research the british government closed down their research, even though they where very close.

Anyone around here still 'haunted by visions of Vietnam'?

Anyone around here still 'haunted by visions of Vietnam'?

Im nearly 30,
So I grew up talking to men who were there, and some of them really opened up with me and told me some things that they hadnt talked about in years.

One of the most touching was a guy who was assigned with a K9 unit.
His dog and he were one. "King" was the dog..(not a very original name, but he didnt name it.) King was trained to find booby traps, and saved his squad more than a few times from trip wires, and such things.

One day Sgt. Mike (thats his name) and King were out on patrol, and were ambushed by a VC patrol.
Mike was shot through the upper chest area, but it missed his heart and lung.
He was down and couldnt walk.'
King dragged Mike nearly a mile back to their own lines.
when the dog was too tired to drag him any further it went back to camp, and brought help.
Mike is alive today thanks to that dog.

At the end of the war, out of all the k9 units that were active, only four were allowed to be brought back to the states.
The rest were given to the ARVINs or, destroyed.

King one was one of the four.
He came home with Mike and died of old age in 1980.

The guy that told me these stories was just a guy I would occasionally talk to at a local greasy spoon, I used to work at.
When he told me about King, His eyes watered.
I thought to myself...

"Imagine being in that hellhole, and yet placing your life in that dogs care."

So to those who have no respect for Veterans...

Object to the war if you want...
But respect those men who fought when they were asked to.

Mel gibson is the worst for this kinda thing and Im not talkin about "the passion". Braveheart and the patriot are just so full of lies showing all English people to be contemptable swine who kill innocent people for fun. *Sigh* Nationalist fool.

By the way, its jag-u-ar, not jagwar

The english DID kill people and oppress them. Maybe not for fun, but for power. It's an accepted part of english history, even by british historians, and not just the welsh ones.

As for the pronunciation of jaguar, ask a mexican how it's pronounced. The name is aztec, and the animal it designates is what the british car is named after. The animal's name in its native country is pronounced "jagwar". Sorry to burst your NF bubble.

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

Your a moron, any military advisor/historian or political historian of that period will all agree that LBJs micromanaging of the Vietnam war is one of the major reasons for US defeat. The fact that targets in North Vietnam were off limits to bombing for many years (until Nixon) was an example of fighting with one hand behind the back. Napalm and Agent Orange have nothing to do with it and you dont know what your talking about.

i think you are right. most of those 1.1 million killed in that war were civilians but in case of America all the 60000 thousand who died were soldiers.

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

Sure. But if preventing the spread of communism was the point of the Vietnam war, and communism didn't spread, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory. The US got what it wanted.

Sure. But if stopping the sky falling is the point of sacrificing your first-born, and the sky doesn't fall, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory...

Maybe we should give up on all forms of foreign policy theory? Just go with the flow? It's easy to criticize, but the Western experience of communiusm was that it spread quickly through regions, i.e. the sattelite states. at some point judgements need to be made. Anyways, yes the dominoe theory is problematic, but I don't see why we would call Vietnam a total failure when the (presumably) primary objective was accomplished.
"Comminsm spread quickly through regions"? May I ask where did it "spread quickly", aside from E. European nations (and N. Korea)occupied by the Soviet military during WWII and SE Asian nations where the U.S. foolishly opposed national liberation movements, thus pushing them into the arms of China and USSR?

Right because the US was incontrol of South East Asia at the time..uh huh...oh wait it was the French. Thats right. The US didnt oppose. But we didnt go open armed to those liberation movements either. However, and I stress however Cambodia and Laos werent communist until after Vietnam. When Vietnam fell it caused a domino effect in that region. But passing the buck to the US simply because we decided not to bully France over what it did with its empire is a BS strawman arguement.

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

Your a moron, any military advisor/historian or political historian of that period will all agree that LBJs micromanaging of the Vietnam war is one of the major reasons for US defeat. The fact that targets in North Vietnam were off limits to bombing for many years (until Nixon) was an example of fighting with one hand behind the back. Napalm and Agent Orange have nothing to do with it and you dont know what your talking about.
Oh yes, my dear genius, something always gets in your way. You dropped more explosives on Vietnam than on Germany during WWII and still complain that your hands were somehow "tied". After centuries of Chinese and then French colonial rule the Vietnamese were willing to sacrifice 2mln+ people to kick the French and then you out. And you, you didn't have the guts for genocide and protracted war against an opponent that was not a strategic threat.

However, we have no evidence to show that other countries would have converted to communism if the US had not been involved in Vietnam: the domino effect was just another political theory.

Sure. But if preventing the spread of communism was the point of the Vietnam war, and communism didn't spread, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory. The US got what it wanted.

Sure. But if stopping the sky falling is the point of sacrificing your first-born, and the sky doesn't fall, then I think it's fair to call it a success, if not a victory...

Maybe we should give up on all forms of foreign policy theory? Just go with the flow? It's easy to criticize, but the Western experience of communiusm was that it spread quickly through regions, i.e. the sattelite states. at some point judgements need to be made. Anyways, yes the dominoe theory is problematic, but I don't see why we would call Vietnam a total failure when the (presumably) primary objective was accomplished.
"Comminsm spread quickly through regions"? May I ask where did it "spread quickly", aside from E. European nations (and N. Korea)occupied by the Soviet military during WWII and SE Asian nations where the U.S. foolishly opposed national liberation movements, thus pushing them into the arms of China and USSR?

Right because the US was incontrol of South East Asia at the time..uh huh...oh wait it was the French. Thats right. The US didnt oppose. But we didnt go open armed to those liberation movements either. However, and I stress however Cambodia and Laos werent communist until after Vietnam. When Vietnam fell it caused a domino effect in that region. But passing the buck to the US simply because we decided not to bully France over what it did with its empire is a BS strawman arguement.
The French withdrew from Vietnam in 1954. There was no need to "bully" anyone; all you had to do is stay out. But of course you had to barge right in and try to impede national reunification by propping up South Vietnam. Worked out so well for you, didn't it? :twisted:

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

Your a moron, any military advisor/historian or political historian of that period will all agree that LBJs micromanaging of the Vietnam war is one of the major reasons for US defeat. The fact that targets in North Vietnam were off limits to bombing for many years (until Nixon) was an example of fighting with one hand behind the back. Napalm and Agent Orange have nothing to do with it and you dont know what your talking about.
Oh yes, my dear genius, something always gets in your way. You dropped more explosives on Vietnam than on Germany during WWII and still complain that your hands were somehow "tied". After centuries of Chinese and then French colonial rule the Vietnamese were willing to sacrifice 2mln+ people to kick the French and then you out. And you, you didn't have the guts for genocide and protracted war against an opponent that was not a strategic threat.

Interesting.

Yes on the bombs comment. However, the amount of bombs dropped means nothing if you don't follow it up with soldiers.

The hands were tied argument is valid. The army was basically told to sit and wait for the enemy to appear and kill them. Why not move the army to North Vietnam? There you have no question on whom to shoot.

The argument of China coming to "help." Uncle Ho was asked this himself and he said given the choice of defeat by the Americans or aid by the Chinese. Defeat! The americans have to come all this way to fight. China just has to walk. It took Viet Nam 1000 years to boot them out, why would they want them back?

As to Guts? Why do you consider a protracted war? Here it is also called the 10000 day war. Do the math yourself.

Didn't have the guts for genocide? A million dead? What do you consider guts for genocide?

I don't know how many other Vietnam veterans are on this forum but I spent two tours of duty there with the 9th Marine Regiment, 3d Marine Division...I don't know where some of you people are getting your information, but it sure as hell isn't from those who were there. Not one major engagement with either VietCong or North Vietnamese Regulars was ever lost by US forces....Charlie was good at the small unit ambush but every time he was brought out into the open he got bitch slapped, he tried it in Tet 68..Charlie hit over 80 provicincial cities and towns, even managing to assault Military Assistance Command Vietnam Saigon's office and a sapper unit got onto the grounds of the US Embassy before being repelled by a US Army units and the US Marine Embassy Detachment.

We lost pure and simple because we were trying to fight a war with our hands tied behind our backs by arm-chair politicians back home. over 8 yrs is a long time for a war to be undecided...Americans tend to like things quick and easy..Vietnam was anything but easy..but I consider it a win solely because I was able to send back to their families the Marines under my command.

addendum...and drug usage while it was on the increase it was not like every soldier/Marine/airman/sailor was some drug-crazed stoner.
Oh, poor darlings..."our hands were tied"..."liberals betrayed us"...
Any more excuses and sob stories? Not enough napalm and Agent Orange, perhaps?

Your a moron, any military advisor/historian or political historian of that period will all agree that LBJs micromanaging of the Vietnam war is one of the major reasons for US defeat. The fact that targets in North Vietnam were off limits to bombing for many years (until Nixon) was an example of fighting with one hand behind the back. Napalm and Agent Orange have nothing to do with it and you dont know what your talking about.
Oh yes, my dear genius, something always gets in your way. You dropped more explosives on Vietnam than on Germany during WWII and still complain that your hands were somehow "tied". After centuries of Chinese and then French colonial rule the Vietnamese were willing to sacrifice 2mln+ people to kick the French and then you out. And you, you didn't have the guts for genocide and protracted war against an opponent that was not a strategic threat.

Interesting.

Yes on the bombs comment. However, the amount of bombs dropped means nothing if you don't follow it up with soldiers.

The hands were tied argument is valid. The army was basically told to sit and wait for the enemy to appear and kill them. Why not move the army to North Vietnam? There you have no question on whom to shoot.

The argument of China coming to "help." Uncle Ho was asked this himself and he said given the choice of defeat by the Americans or aid by the Chinese. Defeat! The americans have to come all this way to fight. China just has to walk. It took Viet Nam 1000 years to boot them out, why would they want them back?

As to Guts? Why do you consider a protracted war? Here it is also called the 10000 day war. Do the math yourself.

Didn't have the guts for genocide? A million dead? What do you consider guts for genocide?
I would imagine one of the major reasons for not invading N. Vietnam was that the president would've had to go to Congress and say: "Ladies and Gentlemen, we cannot pacify S. Vietnam with ~600,000 troops. Can we please have another million soldiers, so we can get bogged down in N. Vietnam too?" And Ho certainly didn't need any Chinese troops to resist potential American invasion of N. Vietnam. He fought and won a guerilla war against the French in N. Vietnam and he was prepared to do it again. As for genocide, it's indiscriminate killing of the enemy population until they lose their will to resist. However many Vietnamese the U.S. forces killed, it obviously wasn't enough to break 'em down. Besides, in the era of free press and liberal sensibilities, genocidal war is not a viable political option for a Western democracy (unless it's a matter of national survival -- and Vietnam was not). -- Voters just don't seem to like mass murder very much.

Voters just don't seem to like mass murder very much.

I know, voters are funny that way.

I assume most of you have seen the American films about Vietnam. In these films it shows the Americans minceing the Vietnese, sorry if that is spelt wrong, anyway, the point is, the Americans got there asses bitch-slapped and handed over on a plate with all the trimmings. How come none of these films show the Americans getting there asses kicked, like it reallyywas? Another thing, the Americans made a film about them finding the Enigma machine. For those of you who do not know what that is, it was a de-codeing machine used by the Germans in world war two, i think, and it was found by us British!!!!!. And, they put in the film pearl harbour that they helped us in the battle of britian, what a load of sh*t! Truth is, all "history" films made by Americans are bull-shit. What do you guys think?

Same sentiment for "Day After Tomorrow" - those are movies shot for profit and propaganda. If you want truth watch a documentary.

Your a moron...

Ah, sweet irony.