NationStates Jolt Archive


JFK was no liberal

Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 18:59
I'm posting the following article because several people here think that just because JFk was a democrat, he was a liberal. THat is very untrue. By today's standards, he's right-of-center.

From Newsmax: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/11/21/140357.shtml

Democrats continue to cite the late President John F. Kennedy as being an example of their kind of liberal – a man who would have approved of the far-left policies and programs of today’s Democratic party. That’s sheer nonsense.
The record shows that JFK was neither their kind of liberal nor an advocate of the socialist policies today's liberals embrace, nor of their so-called "progressive" policies which place them on the left of the political spectrum, nearly out there with Marx and Lenin.

John F. Kennedy bore little resemblance to his brother Teddy Kennedy, the U.S. Senate’s paragon of liberalism, which is so at odds with JFK’s oft-demonstrated conservative views.

JFK would have been horrified to hear his fellow Democrats attacking the Commander in Chief, for example, while the nation was at war and American service men and women were dying on foreign soil.

John F. Kennedy was above all, a fierce patriot, a war hero who would have been infuriated had he heard that Bill Clinton had once proclaimed that he loathed the military, or had he seen how Clinton emasculated the Armed Forces.

Unlike the draft-dodging Clinton, JFK put himself in harm’s way and almost died in the Pacific when, with his father’s enormous political influence, he could have sat out the war in some cushy job in Washington.

Instead he chose to volunteer for one of the most hazardous assignments in the Navy – commanding a small, flimsy, plywood PT Boat. And when that boat was sunk by a Japanese destroyer, he risked his life to save the lives of his crew members despite his crippling injuries.

Those who invoke his memory while at the same time undermining the war against terrorism forget that this was a president who:


Backed Cuban exiles in their attempt to oust the Castro regime which, then as now, sought to use terrorist tactics to overthrow anti-Communist governments in Latin America and install Soviet style regimes south of our border.

Faced down the Soviets when they brazenly installed missiles aimed at the U.S. in Cuba and forced them to withdraw their ICBMs from the island 90 miles from the U.S.

Sent U.S. troops into South Viet Nam in an attempt to quash the Soviet and North Vietnam-backed Viet Cong.
Those present-day liberal Democrats who castigate President Bush for seeking to advance democracy in the Middle East no matter what the cost to America in lives and treasure should recall JFK’s pledge in his Inaugural address " ... we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

If you listen to the 10 men vying for the 2004 Democrat presidential nomination, what you hear is the exact opposite – none of them would think of making such promises today, being utterly unwilling to pay "any price,” in Iraq or the rest of the Middle East. Cut and run is closer to their hearts.

On November 22 we observe the 40th anniversary of JFK’s assassination and we do violence to his memory by linking him to the leftwing cabal which is today’s Democrat party.

Instead we should look for the real John F. Kennedy and when we discover him we’ll see that he would be sickened to see what has happened to his party since his death in November 1963. Make no mistake about it; JFK was in many ways a failure as president, but his failures were not due to his natural conservative views but because he sought to appease his party’s dominant liberal wing, which he needed to have behind him when he ran for re-election.

The failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion of Castro’s Cuba, for example, was more due to the failure of the will of men like his U.N. ambassador Adlai Stevenson, who bitterly opposed the U.S. support of the Cuban exiles seeking to overthrow Castro.

When push came to shove during the invasion and U.S. air power was needed to save the exile invaders, he listened to Stevenson’s advice knowing that if he didn’t he would have infuriated the left wing of his party and risked losing their wholehearted support in 1964. But he also had his successes, especially in facing down the tax and spend liberals in his party bitterly opposed to his tax cutting policies which were anathema to the majority of his fellow Democrats.

As Dr. Roderick Beaman has written in an etherzone.com column, although John Kennedy "has been elevated to icon status in the liberal world," he was instinctively, "one of the most conservative people" ever to serve as president of the United States, and his voting records in both the House and Senate show he was among the most conservative Democrats in the House and Senate.

Writes Beaman, “Kennedy’s reputation as a conservative likely cost him the vice-presidential spot under Adlai Stevenson in 1956." And along with his family’s staunch support of Sen. Joseph McCarthy, it almost cost him the presidential endorsement of New York's Liberal Party in 1960, an event, Beaman notes, that could have doomed his White House hopes.

Although JFK moved to the left for purely political reasons in his final year in the White House, it was because he realized he needed strong liberal support in the forthcoming 1964 election where he was facing a strong challenge from his close friend Sen. Barry Goldwater, a man despised by liberals, but one who JFK described as a dear friend and "a man of decency and character."

It is almost laughable to hear today’s Democrat presidential candidates such as Howard Dean invoke the Kennedy mystique while at the same time attacking President Bush’s tax reductions.

Dean and the others would just as soon forget that it was JFK who proved that reducing the tax burden on Americans almost automatically boosted the U.S. economy to record heights. JFK’s tax cuts sent the economy sky high, exactly as George Bush tax cuts are in the process of doing today. And at the time JFK was slashing taxes across the board, none of his fellow Democrats dared to accuse him of giving tax breaks to the rich as they are saying about the Bush tax program.

Kennedy would have been shocked to see modern day Democrats cozy up to Fidel Castro – a man JFK despised as a brutal, Marxist dictator. Finally, it was thanks to JFK determination to fight organized crime – often an ally of the big city Democrat machines that backed liberal Democrat candidates - that the federal government launched the war against the big crime families that eventually brought the Cosa Nostra crashing down.
Filamai
10-04-2004, 19:05
You forgot the bit about Marilyn.

And yes, JFK was indeed a liberal.
10-04-2004, 19:05
meh, Kennedy was quite socially progressive, especially given the social climate of the time. He supported the civil rights movement, and enacted several laws which legitimized it. He was greatly, greatly hated by the southern conservatives, as far as I can tell. Anyways, it's impossible to look at these things in a vacuum and say 'well if he was president now he'd be conservative' because if he was president now, he'd have an entirely different agenda.

Anyways, if being liberal means progressive social change, then yes, Kennedy was a liberal. If it means reckless spending programs, then probably not.

Finally, you could do better in terms of actual research and historical fact by not using such partisan material.
Spoffin
10-04-2004, 19:06
Heres what I find unbelieveably Raysia, you cite JFK's war record and then admonish Kerry for his.

And you bitch about Clinton not going to war (like GWB) and then attack Kerry for doing so. Now I don't think it matters that Clinton didn't go to war but I do think that its good that Kerry did, especially in the current climate with danger to national security.

Also, its absurd to compare left-right stances across history, cos at the time Kennedy was on the left of the people who opposed him (Barry Goldwater anybody?)
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:10
dude, I didn't write the article.

All I am saying is that 1960's John F. Kennedy was not a liberal by today's standards, and in fact spoke out against such ideas on several occasions.
Spoffin
10-04-2004, 19:14
dude, I didn't write the article.

All I am saying is that 1960's John F. Kennedy was not a liberal by today's standards, and in fact spoke out against such ideas on several occasions.Thats like saying that Abraham Lincoln would have been reviled by today's equal rights campaigners because he didn't believe blacks and whites should be equal. (a line which I have heard before from some moronic conservatives)
Filamai
10-04-2004, 19:15
dude, I didn't write the article.

All I am saying is that 1960's John F. Kennedy was not a liberal by today's standards, and in fact spoke out against such ideas on several occasions.

lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.

a.Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b.Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c.Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d.Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.


He was a liberal by anyone's standards.
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:19
dude, I didn't write the article.

All I am saying is that 1960's John F. Kennedy was not a liberal by today's standards, and in fact spoke out against such ideas on several occasions.

lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.

a.Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b.Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c.Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d.Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.


He was a liberal by anyone's standards.Then, by that definition, he was still not a liberal :P he was progressive, but not liberal.
Stephistan
10-04-2004, 19:25
dude, I didn't write the article.

All I am saying is that 1960's John F. Kennedy was not a liberal by today's standards, and in fact spoke out against such ideas on several occasions.

Well.. if he was alive he probably would of been. He was after all another one of those "Massachusetts" liberals. ;)

For his time he was seen as quite progressive and liberal actually. Keep in mind that true liberalism in the US didn't happen until the 60's during the sexual revolution. JFK was dead by then.

The way you put it I could easily say that most people who follow their religions by todays standards would of been seen as a Heretic years ago. Tis true!

For his time, JFK was very progressive.. that's a fact.
Freedomstein
10-04-2004, 19:28
The record shows that JFK was neither their kind of liberal nor an advocate of the socialist policies today's liberals embrace, nor of their so-called "progressive" policies which place them on the left of the political spectrum, nearly out there with Marx and Lenin.

John F. Kennedy bore little resemblance to his brother Teddy Kennedy, the U.S. Senate’s paragon of liberalism, which is so at odds with JFK’s oft-demonstrated conservative views.

id like some of these "conservative views". real issues he voted on, not people he supported. and saying he was conservative enough times proves nothing.

JFK would have been horrified to hear his fellow Democrats attacking the Commander in Chief, for example, while the nation was at war and American service men and women were dying on foreign soil.

John F. Kennedy was above all, a fierce patriot, a war hero who would have been infuriated had he heard that Bill Clinton had once proclaimed that he loathed the military, or had he seen how Clinton emasculated the Armed Forces.

Unlike the draft-dodging Clinton, JFK put himself in harm’s way and almost died in the Pacific when, with his father’s enormous political influence, he could have sat out the war in some cushy job in Washington.

Instead he chose to volunteer for one of the most hazardous assignments in the Navy – commanding a small, flimsy, plywood PT Boat. And when that boat was sunk by a Japanese destroyer, he risked his life to save the lives of his crew members despite his crippling injuries.

Those who invoke his memory while at the same time undermining the war against terrorism forget that this was a president who:


Backed Cuban exiles in their attempt to oust the Castro regime which, then as now, sought to use terrorist tactics to overthrow anti-Communist governments in Latin America and install Soviet style regimes south of our border.

Faced down the Soviets when they brazenly installed missiles aimed at the U.S. in Cuba and forced them to withdraw their ICBMs from the island 90 miles from the U.S.

Sent U.S. troops into South Viet Nam in an attempt to quash the Soviet and North Vietnam-backed Viet Cong.
Those present-day liberal Democrats who castigate President Bush for seeking to advance democracy in the Middle East no matter what the cost to America in lives and treasure should recall JFK’s pledge in his Inaugural address " ... we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

If you listen to the 10 men vying for the 2004 Democrat presidential nomination, what you hear is the exact opposite – none of them would think of making such promises today, being utterly unwilling to pay "any price,” in Iraq or the rest of the Middle East. Cut and run is closer to their hearts.

military service isnt a democrat-conservative issue. many republicans dodged the draft too. its easier to fight for a war you support than one you dont.and liberals in that day and age would also have been horrified with people not supporting the military. those were different times and 40 years ago, back when people were blindly patriotic and didnt have the experiuences of vietnam and iran-contra and watergate to taint their views. kennedy, like all liberals of the time, was opperating in a very different day.

On November 22 we observe the 40th anniversary of JFK’s assassination and we do violence to his memory by linking him to the leftwing cabal which is today’s Democrat party.

Instead we should look for the real John F. Kennedy and when we discover him we’ll see that he would be sickened to see what has happened to his party since his death in November 1963. Make no mistake about it; JFK was in many ways a failure as president, but his failures were not due to his natural conservative views but because he sought to appease his party’s dominant liberal wing, which he needed to have behind him when he ran for re-election. again, totally unsuppoted,i want specific views, not right wing propaganda.

The failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion of Castro’s Cuba, for example, was more due to the failure of the will of men like his U.N. ambassador Adlai Stevenson, who bitterly opposed the U.S. support of the Cuban exiles seeking to overthrow Castro.

yeah, or it was pretty poorly planned and was run under the assumption that these people wanted to be free and just needed a little help.


Although JFK moved to the left for purely political reasons in his final year in the White House, it was because he realized he needed strong liberal support in the forthcoming 1964 election where he was facing a strong challenge from his close friend Sen. Barry Goldwater, a man despised by liberals, but one who JFK described as a dear friend and "a man of decency and character."

thats a nice tactic right there...anything that he did liberal was purley political while all his conservative tendencies were the real him. and just because he was civil to his opponent doesnt mean he full out supported him.

It is almost laughable to hear today’s Democrat presidential candidates such as Howard Dean invoke the Kennedy mystique while at the same time attacking President Bush’s tax reductions.

Dean and the others would just as soon forget that it was JFK who proved that reducing the tax burden on Americans almost automatically boosted the U.S. economy to record heights. JFK’s tax cuts sent the economy sky high, exactly as George Bush tax cuts are in the process of doing today. And at the time JFK was slashing taxes across the board, none of his fellow Democrats dared to accuse him of giving tax breaks to the rich as they are saying about the Bush tax program.

Kennedy would have been shocked to see modern day Democrats cozy up to Fidel Castro – a man JFK despised as a brutal, Marxist dictator. Finally, it was thanks to JFK determination to fight organized crime – often an ally of the big city Democrat machines that backed liberal Democrat candidates - that the federal government launched the war against the big crime families that eventually brought the Cosa Nostra crashing down.

jfk's tax cuts were more broad than bush's. dems can give tax cuts too. but tax cuts arent always what is needed in an economy. in fact, your little article even said he slashed taxes *across the board.* would he have been in favor of this round? hard to say, but just because he cut taxes 40 years ago in a totally different economic climate doesnt mean he would do the same today. thats like saying fdr wasnt liberal because he got us into ww2 and would be abhorred by liberals today who oppose iraq.

as soon as you give me examples of where he was conservative other than tax cuts, which can be bipartisan, and the fact that he was civil to conservatives, which is the sign of a good leader, and fighting the cold war, which was also a bipartisan action, then there might be a debate going.

oh, and organized crime is how he won cook county and the election. he fought the crime bosses to try to distance himself from the mafia, not because he wanted to undermine the democratic party. and youd have a hard time selling me that fighting organized crime is in any way a libewral-conservative issue.
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:31
dude, I didn't write the article.

All I am saying is that 1960's John F. Kennedy was not a liberal by today's standards, and in fact spoke out against such ideas on several occasions.

Well.. if he was alive he probably would of been. He was after all another one of those "Massachusetts" liberals. ;)

For his time he was seen as quite progressive and liberal actually. Keep in mind that true liberalism in the US didn't happen until the 60's during the sexual revolution. JFK was dead by then.

The way you put it I could easily say that most people who follow their religions by todays standards would of been seen as a Heretic years ago. Tis true!

For his time, JFK was very progressive.. that's a fact.On what basis do you say Kennedy would be a liberal? Just because he was progressive doesn't make him liberal. if I lived back then, I'd still be conservative, but I'd be pushing for civil rights. If I lived in Abe Lincoln's day, I'd still be conservative, but I'd be anti-slavery.

Just because someone is progressive by no means labels them as liberal, at least not liberal by today's standards.
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:31
freedomsteign:

There's one specific quote I'm trying to look for, I'll let you know when I find it.
10-04-2004, 19:31
Its a refreshing but somewhat bewildering lack of cynicism you seem to have (I am referreing to all previous posters). From this side of the pond the Democrats and the republicans seem to be exactly the same.
SuperHappyFun
10-04-2004, 19:32
dude, I didn't write the article.

Right, you didn't. Some guy working for NewsMax did. And I should point out that you'd really be better off not getting your opinions from sites like NewsMax and FreeRepublic. They regularly churn out false or extremely distorted information. If you want to read conservative opinion, there are more reputable sites out there.
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:35
dude, I didn't write the article.

Right, you didn't. Some guy working for NewsMax did. And I should point out that you'd really be better off not getting your opinions from sites like NewsMax and FreeRepublic. They regularly churn out false or extremely distorted information. If you want to read conservative opinion, there are more reputable sites out there.I just have that article up as a placeholder, I'm trying to look for a specific JFK quote right now
Tumaniaa
10-04-2004, 19:38
Bush is not a republican
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:39
Gah, I hate this, I can't find the quote anywhere, and right when I need it :P I heard it on Rush, and it was really good... but I can't find it! arrg

Now I just seem like a total dufus :P
Tumaniaa
10-04-2004, 19:40
Now I just seem like a total dufus :P

Yes...yes you do
Freedomstein
10-04-2004, 19:41
Gah, I hate this, I can't find the quote anywhere, and right when I need it :P I heard it on Rush, and it was really good... but I can't find it! arrg

Now I just seem like a total dufus :P

oh boy, rush, the foremost presidential scholar!
Eulerians
10-04-2004, 19:45
Its a refreshing but somewhat bewildering lack of cynicism you seem to have (I am referreing to all previous posters). From this side of the pond the Democrats and the republicans seem to be exactly the same.

I'd have to agree. In modern politics they're both using the banner of their ideals to gain support. Thus I'm not really a Democrat or Republican because both lie (it's politics for crying out loud). Almost everyone admits this, just that when they're making decisions most people don't consider it.

I am also not fundamentally liberal or conservative according to the American standards. On moral issues I'm conservative. On economic issues I'm left of center. This doesn't really determine who I support in an election, see the other paragraph.
Raysian Military Tech
10-04-2004, 19:50
ideal democrats and Ideal republicans are not too different... it's the minor differences that set us off.
Eulerians
10-04-2004, 19:58
First off, my point was that ideal is an important qualifier. Ideal doesn't happen too often.

Next, I think Raysia is mainly getting at what someone else said (somewhere in this thread I can't find it), although from a completely different point of view. They said that anyone following their religion today would be branded a heretic back then. Raysia has the opposite point of view. Anyone following their religion then would now be considered closed-minded because men think different things are right and wrong now.