NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?

Most of the US media is considered by most conservatives as blatantly liberal..so just like they did in Vietnam..they'd probably take pictures such as one listed...

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?
He only believes White House statements. As long as the Prez says all is fine he won't believe anything else.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?

Most of the US media is considered by most conservatives as blatantly liberal..so just like they did in Vietnam..they'd probably take pictures such as one listed...

Well, I am Australian, and while I don't know about print media over there, I can vouch for the conservatism of Fox News and CNN (Less so, but it still is quite conservative IMHO). To prove my point, the man who owns Fox also owns most of the TV stations and Newspapers in Australia, and they are all conservative. I know for a fact that they are directed on ways to report stories by his office.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?
He only believes White House statements. As long as the Prez says all is fine he won't believe anything else.
LOL

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?
He only believes White House statements. As long as the Prez says all is fine he won't believe anything else.

Actually..you're wrong Simkaria..I didn't vote for Bush Jr..in fact I voted Reform Party..and I don't listen to White House Press Statements..in fact to date...I turn off the tv on anything other then the State of the Union address when Bush is slated to speak.

But for all intents and purposes Al-Jazeera is a mouthpiece of the terrorists..and another thing...as far as Al-Jazeera goes, if they had one ounce of human decency they would have used their connections to let the Japanese know where their people were so they could be rescued.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.

Do you take western media, notorious for expressing the political viewpoint of the owner in question, seriously?
He only believes White House statements. As long as the Prez says all is fine he won't believe anything else.

Actually..you're wrong Simkaria..I didn't vote for Bush Jr..in fact I voted Reform Party..and I don't listen to White House Press Statements..in fact to date...I turn off the tv on anything other then the State of the Union address when Bush is slated to speak.

But for all intents and purposes Al-Jazeera is a mouthpiece of the terrorists..and another thing...as far as Al-Jazeera goes, if they had one ounce of human decency they would have used their connections to let the Japanese know where their people were so they could be rescued.

Most of the US media is considered by most conservatives as blatantly liberal..so just like they did in Vietnam..they'd probably take pictures such as one listed...

Just as most Conservatives are considered Blatently Hilarious.
They really do Have some kind of inferiority complex.
Or as Carl Schmitt (http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i30/30b01601.htm) and a lot of Neo-cons Surmise.

Liberals think there is a third way between liberalism and conservatism; conservatives believe that anyone who is not a conservative is a liberal.

As far as conservatives are concerned If a News source is not with them. Its against them. There is no middle ground.

Liberals think there is a third way between liberalism and conservatism; conservatives believe that anyone who is not a conservative is a liberal.

As far as conservatives are concerned If a News source is not with them. Its against them. There is no middle ground.
[off topic]
Personally, I think conservative is not an acceptable ideology.
I wish the national debate was between everything else than between conservative/everything else.
I can see pro and cons about socialism, moderate right-capitalism, communism which can be debated, but there is no possible debate with ideologies like 'do like we did 100 years ago, no matter if it's right or wrong' in my opinion.
I think the national debate should shift away from the conservatives, but that's just me and I'm single so I have to accept the right/extreme right debate anyway.
[/off topic]

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm Was that suaposed to change my mind about the war? Because if it was, then you failed sir.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

All the debate and argument about the war in Iraq will not help the thousands of men, women, children and babies killed and those still to die.
We rightly vilify the dirty Sadaam regime for its brutality.
We do not vilify the US/UK for their brutality.
The link below will show you some of what the British and Americans have 'acheived'.
Some may take comfort in the knowledge that Sadaam has been captured.
I say I don't believe any nation that calls itself civilised can do this without shame.

WARNING: Very graphic content.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm Was that suaposed to change my mind about the war? Because if it was, then you failed sir.

No, those pictures were not meant to 'change' anyones mind, assuming from your superior and condescending tone you mean from pro Bush/war to anti Bush/war. I don't think much can alter the minds of the rank pro war people, including the photographs of some of the people war destroys. I'm not even surprised at the denial by unfeeling pigs who instead of contemplating for a few moments on the slaughter of children, simply turn to questioning the provenence of the facts. I know that people who've turned their faces against pain and suffering, death and murder, in favour of 'glory' and political advantage, will not be influenced by my post.
What might, just might happen though, is that one single person who sees him or her self as somewhere in the centre of the political debate could decide, like me, that very little economic and political advantage is worth the horror depicted in those photographs.
No, I'm not at all surprised that some peoples concrete minds cannot be changed.
Sir.

Why would anyone believe anything Bush or the Iraqis say???

I mean come on people we all know the White House is talking out its ass half the time and the only thing Iraqis and the majority of the Middle East care about is getting rich.

Why the hell do you think the Saudis paid Osama 3 million dollars to stay out of their country. They know he's a threat to their wealth. Jus think about what he could do if he head unlimited money like the Saudi Monarchy has.

As for those poor Japanese hostages. Al-Jezeera should be ashamed of themselves for shwoing that footage. Those people arent even fighting the war they are trying to help the very people that kidnapped them. I say if they stick to their word and burn ANY hostage, Japanese, US, English or anyone, we give them an ultimatum, you have 1 hour to turn yourselves in or we turn your entire goddam region into a smoking crater. You'll see how fast the Iraqis will turn over the kidnappers.

[

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.[/quote]
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

Yes, I think I would say I expect you to take the pictures seriously. You talk about a few photographs only and question their origin. You blatently expose the fact that you haven't bothered yourself to look at all the pages. If you still choose to belive that this agony and death is not of the coaltions making, I pity you.

[

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

ROFL...most of those pictures are from Al-Jazeera and you expect me to take them seriously?...I have no idea what context those pictures were taken or when..for all I know they could have been taken by an Iraqi pro-baathist thug right after they ambushed a convoy. and in the crossfire, fired on his own people.[/quote]
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

Yes, I think I would say I expect you to take the pictures seriously. You talk about a few photographs only and question their origin. You blatently expose the fact that you haven't bothered yourself to look at all the pages. If you still choose to belive that this agony and death is not of the coalitions making, I pity you.

Having seen war first hand in Vietnam, I can vouch for the the pictures as "representative". The US has NO business in Iraq. President Bush is a War Criminal under international law for his unjustified invasion of another country.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

This girl and thousands of others is on my concience.
It disgusts me that it is not on everybodys.
Especially Bush and Blair.
Imagine one of their children in this state.
And people still refuse to understand why terrorism grows.


Warning; Extremely graphic, part of the earlier link.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraq203b.jpg

Having seen war first hand in Vietnam, I can vouch for the the pictures as "representative". The US has NO business in Iraq. President Bush is a War Criminal under international law for his unjustified invasion of another country.

I was also there in Vietnam..twice..the first time at the Rockpile with the 9th MarRegt...and I'll agree...the photos are representative of wounds received in combat...but I have no context to determine that they are the results of US servicemembers directly targetting civilians..nor do I have any proof that they are not the result of the enemy fire.

There's no such thing as an illegal war.

Personally, I think conservative is not an acceptable ideology.
I wish the national debate was between everything else than between conservative/everything else.
I can see pro and cons about socialism, moderate right-capitalism, communism which can be debated, but there is no possible debate with ideologies like 'do like we did 100 years ago, no matter if it's right or wrong' in my opinion.
I think the national debate should shift away from the conservatives, but that's just me and I'm single so I have to accept the right/extreme right debate anyway.
[/off topic]

You're right, Psylos. "Conservativism" is not a political ideology as much as a reactionary circling of the wagons to change.

I'm sorry about these people having been injured and/or lost their lives because of our actions. However, it's just not intentional, nor as bad as most wars. Ever heard of smart bombs? Most that are in use today are accurate to 3 meters. In fact, JDAMS are accurate to 6ft. I'd really recoil if the civilian casualties were over 1 million, as could've very well happen a few hundred years ago. But they weren't by no account.

I'm sorry about these people having been injured and/or lost their lives because of our actions. However, it's just not intentional, nor as bad as most wars. Ever heard of smart bombs? Most that are in use today are accurate to 3 meters. In fact, JDAMS are accurate to 6ft. I'd really recoil if the civilian casualties were over 1 million, as could've very well happen a few hundred years ago. But they weren't by no account.

"Just not intentional" does not resurrect the dead, nor cure the wounded.

"Friendly fire" is just as deadly.

And who is the keeper of statistics that you would believe anyway?

I'm sorry about these people having been injured and/or lost their lives because of our actions. However, it's just not intentional, nor as bad as most wars. Ever heard of smart bombs? Most that are in use today are accurate to 3 meters. In fact, JDAMS are accurate to 6ft. I'd really recoil if the civilian casualties were over 1 million, as could've very well happen a few hundred years ago. But they weren't by no account.

You know, I'm not going to argue the fact that the Coalition did a lot of things to minimize civilian casualties - because clearly they did.

However as easy as it is for us to say, for example, "hey - we only killed 10,000! That's incredibly low for an invasion", and be correct. The fact is that to the family who buries a child who died when they picked up a cluster-bomblet that hadn't exploded on impact - their loss is the same no matter whether 9,999 of their countrymen suffered the same fate, or whether it was 999,999.

So don't expect those families to view you kindly.

Speaking of death though, for this whole thing to succeed you have to get the bulk of the population onboard. Some of that relates to cultural sensitivity. Now, the current assault on Falluja is in direct retailiation for the post-mortem abuse of the bodies of 4 civilian security men.

So far, estimates have ranged up to 400 Iraqi deaths in reprisal, and I would think that at a 100-1 ratio you've made your point. Thefact that some of these have been women and children saddens me as much as the abuse we all witnessed in that video.

However, if this is about the post-mortem treatment of civilians - perhaps you could explain why the citizens of Falluja are being forced to bury their dead in a soccer stadium, because the troops are denying them access to their graveyards. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20040409/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_fallujah_11)

Proper, timely burial is a huge deal to Muslims. Incredibly huge.

It just strikes me as a stupid line to draw given the situation that caused this seige, and given the desired end result of this whole exercise.

-Z-

There's no such thing as an illegal war.


War is covered by international law, not US law, so actually yes there is.

I'm sorry about these people having been injured and/or lost their lives because of our actions. However, it's just not intentional, nor as bad as most wars. Ever heard of smart bombs? Most that are in use today are accurate to 3 meters. In fact, JDAMS are accurate to 6ft. I'd really recoil if the civilian casualties were over 1 million, as could've very well happen a few hundred years ago. But they weren't by no account.

You know, I'm not going to argue the fact that the Coalition did a lot of things to minimize civilian casualties - because clearly they did.

However as easy as it is for us to say, for example, "hey - we only killed 10,000! That's incredibly low for an invasion", and be correct. The fact is that to the family who buries a child who died when they picked up a cluster-bomblet that hadn't exploded on impact - their loss is the same no matter whether 9,999 of their countrymen suffered the same fate, or whether it was 999,999.

So don't expect those families to view you kindly.

Speaking of death though, for this whole thing to succeed you have to get the bulk of the population onboard. Some of that relates to cultural sensitivity. Now, the current assault on Falluja is in direct retailiation for the post-mortem abuse of the bodies of 4 civilian security men.

So far, estimates have ranged up to 400 Iraqi deaths in reprisal, and I would think that at a 100-1 ratio you've made your point. Thefact that some of these have been women and children saddens me as much as the abuse we all witnessed in that video.

However, if this is about the post-mortem treatment of civilians - perhaps you could explain why the citizens of Falluja are being forced to bury their dead in a soccer stadium, because the troops are denying them access to their graveyards. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20040409/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_fallujah_11)

Proper, timely burial is a huge deal to Muslims. Incredibly huge.

It just strikes me as a stupid line to draw given the situation that caused this seige, and given the desired end result of this whole exercise.

-Z-
About the graveyards, all I know is that part of the cease-fire was so that the dead could be burried. I admit that this is a mistake of the coalition's, as I don't support their every move. However, I guess a burial in Islam is better than no burial at all. They probably do realise that this was a little out of our way to do this.
As for what you said on civilian casualties. I feel that, no matter what happens in Iraq, the bad aspects of our invasion will be outweighed by the benefits. I mean, even if the country divides into twenty different states, I'm sure they'll never have another Sadamesque dictator. I could be wrong, but I'm sure it's unlikely to happen.
And the other interesting point you brought up is that the people need to be onboard if this is to work. That's true, and I believe that most Kurds are. I still even believe that quite a few Shi'ites agree with us. In the past year, the Iraqi economy has improved, and that has made many people happy. However, violence on our part isn't to be taken lightly, especially in residential areas (and I've heard that so far, the Marines in Fallujah are staying out of them).

Besides, work has been done to mend wounds. Up until recently, it was safe enough for US troops to ride on humvees without doors. They'd ride through villages, and the people would wave. Whoever didn't wave, they'd stop, and ask them the problem. CNN had an embedded reporter with them, so that's how I saw it. Anyhow, the particular case they showed was that this man's car wouldn't start. So, they got out the jumper cables, and started the car. Now I'm not clear if just this one company did this, or the whole army, but I can assure you that similar programs have been instated. I've even heard that our troops in Baghdad clean streets occasionally. It won't win us over mobs of friends, but it's a gesture to the Iraqis. As long as no one is acting out against the troops, no one needs to get hurt, and they have little to fear.