NationStates Jolt Archive

Did you know that it was the glorious US Cavalry who introduced the habit of taking the scalp of your enemy? Not an indian habit at all :lol:

Yeah. The indians did much worse.

Luckily thats not the point. The point is that the indians were considered to be the savages, not the white man who considered themselves the epitome of civilization.

The indians were the savages. They dismembered their enemy dead to prevent them from fighting in the afterlife. The scalping was introduced by the British during the Revolutionary War, to make the indians prove the number of colonists they had killed.

Compare: dismembering your enemy from head to toe, versus scalping. Scalping was just a more reliable method than cutting off ears.

The indians were the savages. They dismembered their enemy dead to prevent them from fighting in the afterlife. The scalping was introduced by the British during the Revolutionary War, to make the indians prove the number of colonists they had killed.

Compare: dismembering your enemy from head to toe, versus scalping. Scalping was just a more reliable method than cutting off ears.

The main thing to remember is the Indians dismembered the dead. Scalping was usually done while the person was still alive.

Further Revisions on Revisionist history. Lovely.

At this point I'm willing to put forth that a lot of crappy things were done to both sides by both sides, and that right or wrong it happened all the same.

Small-pox infested blankets as peace offerings are just as nasty in my book as dismembering dead people in a religious rite. The point is this; they met, and were very bad to each other after all too few years of peace. Hopefully, we learn from this and try not to repeat it.

Just learn from history and not go about blaming your ancestors for stuff. The next time you start to curse out the colonists or the natives of ANY nation around the world just smack yourself upside the head and repeat the following phrase, "I will not judge those who've gone before, hindsight isn't the same as foresight."

I would like to point out that there are still many "savage" cultures out there today that still drag bodies through streets and hang bodies from bridges just as was done 400 years ago.

I think we need to judge cultures on their progress (none made by the middle east, pleanty made by the West) versus the past incidents alone.

At this point I'm willing to put forth that a lot of crappy things were done to both sides by both sides, and that right or wrong it happened all the same.

True, but that wasn't the point of the post.


Small-pox infested blankets as peace offerings are just as nasty in my book as dismembering dead people in a religious rite.

If you really fail to realize that providing people who are ALIVE with small-pox infested blankets is far worse than dismembering DEAD people... ay, time to take your medication.


The point is this; they met, and were very bad to each other after all too few years of peace. Hopefully, we learn from this and try not to repeat it.

I see that you conveniently neglect to mention that it were the settlers who started hostilities time and time again. In fact, the natives met those first settlers with great hospitality. So, who was the real savage?


Just learn from history and not go about blaming your ancestors for stuff.

I haven't been blaming anyone. Have you?


The next time you start to curse out the colonists or the natives of ANY nation around the world just smack yourself upside the head and repeat the following phrase, "I will not judge those who've gone before, hindsight isn't the same as foresight."

Mmmmh, where exactly has anyone in this thread been cursing or judging either the colonists or natives? Forgot to put on your reading glasses, have you?

I would like to point out that there are still many "savage" cultures out there today that still drag bodies through streets and hang bodies from bridges just as was done 400 years ago.

I think we need to judge cultures on their progress (none made by the middle east, pleanty made by the West) versus the past incidents alone.

Yeah, savages who run over a car that has some collected wood on the roof cause there is this "no pillaging". And that from the same nation who is doing most of the pillaging... :lol:

And hey, the West sure made lots of progress. I mean, now it is the non-west that has to pay the price for the luxury that the West enjoys. Does 'made in china' or 'made in fill-in-the-name-of-any-third-world-country' say anything to you? Can we say 'childlabour' or 'underpaid labour' (read 'starvation wages')? Yep, the West made plenty of "progress". 8)

Does 'made in china' or 'made in fill-in-the-name-of-any-third-world-country' say anything to you? Can we say 'childlabour' or 'underpaid labour' (read 'starvation wages')? Yep, the West made plenty of "progress". 8)

Yeah, theres one way to be 'civilised'. Get all the other countries to do the dirty work.

I would like to point out that there are still many "savage" cultures out there today that still drag bodies through streets and hang bodies from bridges just as was done 400 years ago.

I think we need to judge cultures on their progress (none made by the middle east, pleanty made by the West) versus the past incidents alone.

Yeah, savages who run over a car that has some collected wood on the roof cause there is this "no pillaging". And that from the same nation who is doing most of the pillaging... :lol:

And hey, the West sure made lots of progress. I mean, now it is the non-west that has to pay the price for the luxury that the West enjoys. Does 'made in china' or 'made in fill-in-the-name-of-any-third-world-country' say anything to you? Can we say 'childlabour' or 'underpaid labour' (read 'starvation wages')? Yep, the West made plenty of "progress". 8)

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT? I'M RICK JAMES BITCH!

Yes it was the white man who introduced scalping to us..and dismembering dead was seen not so much as sadism as it was to prevent him from coming back from the lands of the dead to fight again. Now.."enlightened" as we Indians have become....the term "sadism" could be applied..but to people who believed in an afterlife, the type of which we proscribed too, doing that to an enemy was considered the norm.....warrior ethos of Stone-age civilizations had strong opinions as to how to deal with your enemies..I have been raised in that warrior tradition..you'll find that is how many Indian tribes today fulfill that ancient belief by going into the military or by falling back on ancient ways of belief.

Oh yes..we could be ruthless in war...the Cherokee fought numerous wars with the colonists of Georgia and North Carolina...after they entered our lands in Tennessee it got worse..after that we were fighting on sacred grounds..lands closest to the Cherokee soul and heart....and to that end..we killed women, children, old men....as well as strong males.

So tell me, what is it that makes one civilized or savage? The historical use of the word civilized is primarily that of arrogance. It is used mainly by the most technologically advanced cultures whose capacity to wage war is frightening. While words like savage are used to describe those who aren’t quite so advanced and wage wars with simple or acquired weapons and tactics. In the end however there is only one thing to consider. People will fight according to their cause. If people are fighting for survival, then they will do so by any means necessary. If people are fighting just because they don’t like somebodies way of life, then they will either try to exterminate them or just destroy their way of life. So which one is really more savage?
__________________________________________________
Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

So tell me, what is it that makes one civilized or savage? The historical use of the word civilized is primarily that of arrogance. It is used mainly by the most technologically advanced cultures whose capacity to wage war is frightening. While words like savage are used to describe those who aren’t quite so advanced and wage wars with simple or acquired weapons and tactics. In the end however there is only one thing to consider. People will fight according to their cause. If people are fighting for survival, then they will do so by any means necessary. If people are fighting just because they don’t like somebodies way of life, then they will either try to exterminate them or just destroy their way of life. So which one is really more savage?
__________________________________________________
Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

My grandfather once asked me that....who was more savage..a people who tried to uphold a way of life that had been theirs for millenia..or a people who could systematially uproot an entire people..lock, stock and barrel...march them in the midst of winter to a place that lacked natural resources and had already been slammed with 5 other tribes as well. So who was more savage he asked?....I couldn't answer.

I dont know how any one can call the NATIVE AMERICAN (because am using a generalisation) culture savage, its a beutiful society with 1000s of years on its clock, far old then all western civlisations. Secondly you Owe alot to the Native americans, take the Navajo, if it wasnt for them, you probably wouldnt have won the Second world war. Sad the day when we had to start putting native infront of the name of the real american people just to distiguish them, and just because people cant take the time to tell the differance between the Innu and the Inuit, Cant tell the Montagnais from the Mohawk. Come on people, just because someone has different morales from us does not mean they are savage, to them like to me, view the body as an empty shell, only a vessel for the Soul, some Cultures, believed that infact by cutting of someones head, you were helping them get to the afterlife because they couldnt receive a proper burial. Some Also Beleived that by cutting it off your preventing them from Coming back.

They are nothing compared to atrocities western man has committed, Great Britian shot Mutineers out of Cannons with canonballs in there aswell. We force people into Concetration camps, invent and uptake eugenics, Violate and kill eachother more then most nations heck the murder rate in the US is the highest in the world. We dropped weapons of mass destruction on what was largely civillians, just to end a war that bit quicker. We invent Weapons so horrible you could die Bleeding from your Stomach extreting blood and after all that still have blood pouring from your mouth. Do we really have the right to judge others? Im not a christian but theres something ill always obey "dont judge lest ye be judged" Everyone comes into the world the same, and we all leave it the same, and teaching your children to play cowboys and Indians aint a way to get rid of arrogance.

So tell me, what is it that makes one civilized or savage? The historical use of the word civilized is primarily that of arrogance. It is used mainly by the most technologically advanced cultures whose capacity to wage war is frightening. While words like savage are used to describe those who aren’t quite so advanced and wage wars with simple or acquired weapons and tactics. In the end however there is only one thing to consider. People will fight according to their cause. If people are fighting for survival, then they will do so by any means necessary. If people are fighting just because they don’t like somebodies way of life, then they will either try to exterminate them or just destroy their way of life. So which one is really more savage?
__________________________________________________
Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

My grandfather once asked me that....who was more savage..a people who tried to uphold a way of life that had been theirs for millenia..or a people who could systematially uproot an entire people..lock, stock and barrel...march them in the midst of winter to a place that lacked natural resources and had already been slammed with 5 other tribes as well. So who was more savage he asked?....I couldn't answer.

Or being "saved from ourselves" by self riteous Jesuits, using the local law enforcement to outlaw the speaking of our language, and steal our children from us, changing their names, and "educating them properly" sic "indoctrination". Arresting us for practicing our rites or playing our music. And then made to feel ashamed of our heritage, and told to hide who we are.

After 400 years of Christian "salvation", it's a wonder that there's any M'iqMaq culture left, and that we managed to save the language.
Thankfully, in the last 10 years, there's been a growth in pride for who we are, and who we were. Along with a strong push to drive out the "church" and it's poison, and reclaim our language and our traditions.

So tell me, what is it that makes one civilized or savage? The historical use of the word civilized is primarily that of arrogance. It is used mainly by the most technologically advanced cultures whose capacity to wage war is frightening. While words like savage are used to describe those who aren’t quite so advanced and wage wars with simple or acquired weapons and tactics. In the end however there is only one thing to consider. People will fight according to their cause. If people are fighting for survival, then they will do so by any means necessary. If people are fighting just because they don’t like somebodies way of life, then they will either try to exterminate them or just destroy their way of life. So which one is really more savage?
__________________________________________________
Out of all the demons in this world, none is more frightening than man

My grandfather once asked me that....who was more savage..a people who tried to uphold a way of life that had been theirs for millenia..or a people who could systematially uproot an entire people..lock, stock and barrel...march them in the midst of winter to a place that lacked natural resources and had already been slammed with 5 other tribes as well. So who was more savage he asked?....I couldn't answer.

Or being "saved from ourselves" by self riteous Jesuits, using the local law enforcement to outlaw the speaking of our language, and steal our children from us, changing their names, and "educating them properly" sic "indoctrination". Arresting us for practicing our rites or playing our music. And then made to feel ashamed of our heritage, and told to hide who we are.

After 400 years of Christian "salvation", it's a wonder that there's any M'iqMaq culture left, and that we managed to save the language.
Thankfully, in the last 10 years, there's been a growth in pride for who we are, and who we were. Along with a strong push to drive out the "church" and it's poison, and reclaim our language and our traditions.

It was only until 1996 that the Lakota Sun Dance was allowed to be done after being forbidden by US Federal Authorities..they deemed that dance.."potentially subversive"...heaven forbid the Lakota actually take pride in who they are and dance to a celebration of lfe.

Or being "saved from ourselves" by self riteous Jesuits, using the local law enforcement to outlaw the speaking of our language, and steal our children from us, changing their names, and "educating them properly" sic "indoctrination". Arresting us for practicing our rites or playing our music. And then made to feel ashamed of our heritage, and told to hide who we are.

After 400 years of Christian "salvation", it's a wonder that there's any M'iqMaq culture left, and that we managed to save the language.
Thankfully, in the last 10 years, there's been a growth in pride for who we are, and who we were. Along with a strong push to drive out the "church" and it's poison, and reclaim our language and our traditions.

It was only until 1996 that the Lakota Sun Dance was allowed to be done after being forbidden by US Federal Authorities..they deemed that dance.."potentially subversive"...heaven forbid the Lakota actually take pride in who they are and dance to a celebration of lfe.

That's pretty late, even by American standards. The Haida Gwai were outlawed the potlatch right up until the mid 1970's, and powwow's were outlawed in Newfoundland up until it joined Canada in 1949. Joining Canada was one of the best things to happen to the M'iqmaq, but only in the respect that it stopped the Newfoundland government from taking children out of M'iqmaq of there homes, for the evil crimes of teaching the children their native tongue, or any "spiritual rites". Children were than put either in "fine Christian homes", or into crowded boarding schools run by the priests, and we know how well those were run. In some respects we were lucky, in that many natives in Newfoundland along the south shore, broke away from the Conne River settlement early on, and moved to the west shore, where things were a little less controllable (lets just say, it wasn't a very healthy place for any law enforcement officers), and we were out of sight enough for the government to basically just ignore our existance for the most part. It didn't stop missionaries however from strolling in every once in a while with an armed contigent, to "save our god forsaken souls from eternal damnation".
Unfortunately, one of the strategies taken up by the M'iqMaq on the West shore was to publicly hide themselves, and deny that they were M'iqMaq, something that caused much shame amongst the community, but preferable to having your children ripped out of your house, never to be seen again, and have yourself thrown in jail, for the unholy crime of not speaking English, or not praying to the "correct God".

As I said before, we are now just finally coming out of our shells, and realizing that we can be and should be proud to be M'iqMaq, and to never again hold our heads in shame of who we are, as well as to fight tooth and nail over every right we have no matter how trivial. Never again will we allow other people to tell us what to teach our children. Following the "white Christian" methods has only led to alcoholism, drug addiction and too many suicides because of the deep shame in abandoning who we are, and who we were. It's time to reclaim who we are, and be proud of it!

Or being "saved from ourselves" by self riteous Jesuits, using the local law enforcement to outlaw the speaking of our language, and steal our children from us, changing their names, and "educating them properly" sic "indoctrination". Arresting us for practicing our rites or playing our music. And then made to feel ashamed of our heritage, and told to hide who we are.

After 400 years of Christian "salvation", it's a wonder that there's any M'iqMaq culture left, and that we managed to save the language.
Thankfully, in the last 10 years, there's been a growth in pride for who we are, and who we were. Along with a strong push to drive out the "church" and it's poison, and reclaim our language and our traditions.

It was only until 1996 that the Lakota Sun Dance was allowed to be done after being forbidden by US Federal Authorities..they deemed that dance.."potentially subversive"...heaven forbid the Lakota actually take pride in who they are and dance to a celebration of lfe.

That's pretty late, even by American standards. The Haida Gwai were outlawed the potlatch right up until the mid 1970's, and powwow's were outlawed in Newfoundland up until it joined Canada in 1949. Joining Canada was one of the best things to happen to the M'iqmaq, but only in the respect that it stopped the Newfoundland government from taking children out of M'iqmaq of there homes, for the evil crimes of teaching the children their native tongue, or any "spiritual rites". Children were than put either in "fine Christian homes", or into crowded boarding schools run by the priests, and we know how well those were run. In some respects we were lucky, in that many natives in Newfoundland along the south shore, broke away from the Conne River settlement early on, and moved to the west shore, where things were a little less controllable (lets just say, it wasn't a very healthy place for any law enforcement officers), and we were out of sight enough for the government to basically just ignore our existance for the most part. It didn't stop missionaries however from strolling in every once in a while with an armed contigent, to "save our god forsaken souls from eternal damnation".
Unfortunately, one of the strategies taken up by the M'iqMaq on the West shore was to publicly hide themselves, and deny that they were M'iqMaq, something that caused much shame amongst the community, but preferable to having your children ripped out of your house, never to be seen again, and have yourself thrown in jail, for the unholy crime of not speaking English, or not praying to the "correct God".

As I said before, we are now just finally coming out of our shells, and realizing that we can be and should be proud to be M'iqMaq, and to never again hold our heads in shame of who we are, as well as to fight tooth and nail over every right we have no matter how trivial. Never again will we allow other people to tell us what to teach our children. Following the "white Christian" methods has only led to alcoholism, drug addiction and too many suicides because of the deep shame in abandoning who we are, and who we were. It's time to reclaim who we are, and be proud of it!

You're correct....many Americans would have me separate my being Cherokee...that it is no more or less then say..an Italian-American or an Irish-American....we Indians may have come to love our adopted country, but we sure as hell wernt immigrants...we were kicking and screaming into this relationship...I say there is no reason why I should deny being Cherokee with American citizenship.

You're correct....many Americans would have me separate my being Cherokee...that it is no more or less then say..an Italian-American or an Irish-American....we Indians may have come to love our adopted country, but we sure as hell wernt immigrants...we were kicking and screaming into this relationship...I say there is no reason why I should deny being Cherokee with American citizenship.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. Although I will say that things are much better now than they were in the past. My father grew up in a time where he had to hide who and what he was completely. He spent 36 years serving Canada as a member of the Navy, while hiding the fact that he was M'iqMaq. Whenever he was asked if he was native, he would tell people "No, that he was a Newfie from the West shore", which seemed to satisfy even the most curious (apparently people think that the West Shore newfies just look native lol). When I recently asked him why he hid like that, he told that there was very little room for advancement in the military for natives, and that the natives got a lot of flack and BS, both in the military, and outside of it. People would just assume that if you were native, in the military, you would just lie around drunk all day, and be incapable of defending this nation (load of crap, given the military history of the native peoples in the country in both world wars and in peace keeping). Things are better now, and most people seem to accept that a native can also be a software engineer, but there is still some bullshit. Don't know how many times I've heard someone remark "they should stay no the reserves", or the equally offensive "Wow, an Indian that's not pissed!". I have also had a couple of people wonder how I could be patriotic to Canada after all it's done, but for everything that has happened, and been done to us in the past, Canada is here now, and is much more accepting than it has been. The only way we are going to move forward as a people is to work within the framework that are our respective countries, and try to effect real change that will benefit our people, without infringing on other citizen's, while ensuring that the rights which we have fought for remain firmly entrenched, all the while working to tear down the stereotype of the "white man's" Indian to ensure that the injustices of the past are never repeated. I myself am a proud M'iqMaq, and a proud Canadian, as well as a proud maritimer, and believe that my pride in who I am makes me stronger as a person.

True, but that wasn't the point of the post.

**Very well, what was your point, eh? What was your grand motivation for posting your esteemed opinion on this lowly forum?**

If you really fail to realize that providing people who are ALIVE with small-pox infested blankets is far worse than dismembering DEAD people... ay, time to take your medication.

**Please avoid calling my moral character into question and insinuating that I am insane. Its a shabby debate tactic, not worthy of an educated person. Desecration of the dead is a serious crime in most cultures, and was seen as quite the offensive practice by settlers. Considering one would likely have killed the now-dead person in question in order to dismember them, I think both are equally tragic-the loss of life. That is all I meant by the statement.**

I see that you conveniently neglect to mention that it were the settlers who started hostilities time and time again. In fact, the natives met those first settlers with great hospitality. So, who was the real savage?

**Sadly, your information is incomplete. Look deeper into your resources and you'll find that many hostilities were either mutual or one-sideded, without consistensies as to who started them. You are attempting to frame the question in the light that it was the European settlers who were savage and that the native Americans were peaceful people. While certainly this was true in some cases, you should not paint with so broad a brush. **

I haven't been blaming anyone. Have you?

**You haven't? Strange. With lines such as "So who really was the savage" (Or something similar, I don't have the line handy), and other statements you've made, you've given far too much insight into your misgivings in this issue. Your arguments are rather transparent.**

Mmmmh, where exactly has anyone in this thread been cursing or judging either the colonists or natives? Forgot to put on your reading glasses, have you?

**Perhaps I jumped the gun, implying you have cursing them...but you have most certainly judged them in your mind. As previously stated your arguments are leading and transperant in intention. My eyesight is fine, thank you for asking. Now, study hard and go away until you learn some more about this subject.**

**Twit.**

I dont know how any one can call the NATIVE AMERICAN (because am using a generalisation) culture savage, its a beutiful society with 1000s of years on its clock, far old then all western civlisations. Secondly you Owe alot to the Native americans, take the Navajo, if it wasnt for them, you probably wouldnt have won the Second world war. Sad the day when we had to start putting native infront of the name of the real american people just to distiguish them, and just because people cant take the time to tell the differance between the Innu and the Inuit, Cant tell the Montagnais from the Mohawk. Come on people, just because someone has different morales from us does not mean they are savage, to them like to me, view the body as an empty shell, only a vessel for the Soul, some Cultures, believed that infact by cutting of someones head, you were helping them get to the afterlife because they couldnt receive a proper burial. Some Also Beleived that by cutting it off your preventing them from Coming back.

They are nothing compared to atrocities western man has committed, Great Britian shot Mutineers out of Cannons with canonballs in there aswell. We force people into Concetration camps, invent and uptake eugenics, Violate and kill eachother more then most nations heck the murder rate in the US is the highest in the world. We dropped weapons of mass destruction on what was largely civillians, just to end a war that bit quicker. We invent Weapons so horrible you could die Bleeding from your Stomach extreting blood and after all that still have blood pouring from your mouth. Do we really have the right to judge others? Im not a christian but theres something ill always obey "dont judge lest ye be judged" Everyone comes into the world the same, and we all leave it the same, and teaching your children to play cowboys and Indians aint a way to get rid of arrogance.

Damn, dont you feel lopsided with such a big chip on your shoulder? I cant be bothered to reply individually to each questionable passage you wrote so ill just make a few quick points.

1) Native American culture is not older than any of the western cultures. What the hell are you basing that idea on?

2) Your point about the navajo winning WW2 is idiotic, dont make me laugh.

3) You say in one breath that we cant call people savage as all cultures are different, then you say that westerners have commited worse attrocitys. Make up your mind, is it wrong to judge people or not?

4) We invented the concentration camp because we were advanced enough as a society to do it, something the Amerindian tribes never could.

5) Since when is Eugenics an attrocity? And who says we invented it anyway? Infant exposure is the most basic form of eugenics and thats been present in almost all cultures at one time or another.

6) the murder rate in America is not the highest in the world.