Womblingdon
05-04-2004, 18:12
Ariel Sharon had given an extensive interview today concerning his plan to disengage from Gaza. I've followed the coverage of it in the foreign press, and the distortions are, dare I say, outrageous. Which is why, for people who are genuinly interested in the subject and who can be open minded enough to ignore all the myths and stereotypes surrounding Sharon, Israel in general and the Israeli right in particular, I decided to post the authentic text of the interview here, as it appeared in the Maariv daily.
P.S. I am leaving out the ending, that has to do with local politics, as I asusme they are only of interest to us Israelis. If anyone want to read these bits too, just follow the link.
Sharon: Gaza settlers' houses may be given to Palestinians evicted from enlarged border zone
Ariel Sharon seems fine. Calm, focused, amused, but angry as well. Never has a prime minister in Israel been so embroiled and surrounded by controversy. The right wing, his historic stronghold, is fighting him, while the left, his greatest rival, is closely testing his every move.
At 76, it is still hard to determine who the real Ariel Sharon is. What does he want and why, where is he headed to and why. Or when. A closet “Mapainik” (Labor party veteran) just reverted to his old ways, an ultra nationalist right-winger still hiding within, or perhaps something in between. Contrary to his usual self, he divulges quite a bit of information.
Maariv: People say that if only you had given [former Palestinian PM] Abu-Mazen one tenth of what you're now offering for free. The evacuation of [the isolated Gaza\ settlement] Netzarim for instance…
Sharon: People say a lot of things. Abu-Mazen didn’t fail because of us. Arafat scuttled his every move. Instead of fighting terror organizations, he did business with them. I have known him for many years. I told him he wouldn’t last, which was exactly what happened.
Did [current Palestinian PM] Abu-Ala’s statement adopting your disengagement plan surprise you?
Sharon: The plan is generating a lot of anxiety among the Arabs. They are trying to counteract it wherever they can. Disengagement is good for Israel and they too understand that. Approval of the plan would be a severe blow to the Palestinians and their dreams, but need to be seen in a certain way while President Bush’s three US envoys are in the region. It's a matter of visibility.
No phase II for disengagement
Maariv: Can you outline the plan? How is it shaping up in practice?
Sharon: Yes. The plan’s outline is to evacuate the Gaza Strip, all of it, except the border area between the Strip and Egypt, the Philadelphi corridor. The defense establishment demanded this exception in view of the massive arms smuggling. I have also discussed this with the Egyptians. As an initial step, we will control the Philadelphi route and boost defenses along the Strip'sperimeter fences.
Maariv: Is there any intent to expand the Philladelphi corridor?
Sharon: From an operational standpoint, it is needed. The mistake was made in Oslo, when the participants agreed it would be only several dozens of meters wide. That plan had no chance of success. Expanding it means razing hundreds of homes and then you will see on television a Palestinian child looking for his doll among the ruins of his house. That is the exact thing Israel does not need. It’s not a simple matter to carry out. We are examining the possibility of giving the families, whose homes were razed, the houses that are to be vacated by the settlers.
Maariv: What about the homes of the settlers, the dolls of their children?
Sharon: I don’t suggest destroying their homes. That is extremely hard. Hard for the settlers, some of whom have already had grandchildren there. It is very hard for me too. I gave much thought to the issue until I reached the conclusion that part of the settlement enterprise, in Gaza probably the entire one, would eventually have to be evacuated. I said this even prior to my first term in office.
Maariv: True, but no one took you seriously.
Sharon: Let me give you a piece of advice: Take me seriously. I said it in the clearest of terms. In addition, all the attempts to determine who influenced me have no basis whatsoever. I would put it this way: Arik influenced Sharon and Sharon influenced Arik. These decisions I take alone. It is a difficult decision, one that caused me a great deal of pain. But it must be done and I hold the responsibility. First and foremost is the well-being and benefit of the entire nation. This move has a price. The entire strip must be evacuated in addition to a number of Samaria settlements.
Maariv: These people, whom you plan to evacuate from their homes, saw you as a father figure.
Sharon: Not every decision of a father seems right to his sons. There is no choice. That is my decision, and I believe it is the correct one. I believe it will contribute to our security and will open the way for a future peace process. When you fence off entire regions and settlements, you terminate many Palestinian dreams. If negotiation they could have gotten much more.
Maariv: How many settlements do you plan to evacuate in Judea and Samaria?
Sharon: We are talking about approximately four.
Maariv: Does the plan have a second stage?
Sharon: No.
Maariv: Do you know for certain what Israel will get in return from the United States? Is there, for instance, a security agreement regarding the question what we may do if the Palestinians fire Katyusha rockets at us from Gaza?
Sharon: “We are in the final stages of this discussion. It will only be finalized at my meeting with President Bush. If your question is whether I know, the answer is yes. In matters pertaining to security we have a full and complete understanding and guarantee.
Maariv: What about an official American approval of the barrier's route extending around the large settlement blocs, including the Ariel enclave?
Sharon: If you wish to enclose it, you can. I don’t believe we have an interest in enclosing it.
Maariv: Why not enclose it and connect it to the Green Line?
Sharon: The settlements will be closed off. Ofra, Beit Aryeh, Peduel, Aley-Zahav, Berukhim and until the cross-Samaria. This region will be completely fenced.
Maariv: Does Washington approve of a de-facto annexation of this territory?
Sharon: We didn’t mention annexation. It is clear to everyone that Israel will not withdraw to the 1967 borderline.
Maariv: Will there be such a declaration?
Sharon: I do not wish to comment on that. In respect of the previous question, what would happen if the Palestinians fire at us from the evacuated territory in Gaza, I would like to emphasize that Israel has a full right to act against terror operating in areas which it evacuates. There will be a non-stop war on terror, whether we are there or not.
Maariv: Many of the IDF’s senior offices disagree with you. They hesitate to say it ‘on the record,’ but believe the disengagement plan is a reward for terrorism. The fact is that Hamas decided to resume the attacks within the 1948 borderline after it had found out about the plan. We are withdrawing under fire, just as we did in southern Lebanon, and by doing so we are allowing them to feel as if they expelled us -- and you, the great believer in “no negotiation under fire” and “no succumbing to terror,” are leading this rout.
Sharon: Regarding the officers, I would be very happy to hear their opinion. After all, I meet with them: With the defense minister, the chief of staff, the regional commands’ major-generals, the heads of military intelligence, Mossad and Security Services. These people have their chance to state their opinions in the clearest fashion. No one prevents them from doing so. On the contrary – I always press officials to voice their thoughts. So I advise them to state their opinion if they have something to say.
Maariv: The chief of staff mentioned the plan would boost terror efforts.
Sharon: Okay. I cannot begin to outline here what the chief of staff told me in our private conversation. But I would suggest to other officers -- who they are, I don’t know -- to schedule appointments with me and voice their opinion.
Maariv: They are also saying that if we stay in control of the Philadelphi corridor and prevent the Palestinians having their own air and sea ports, it’s not really a disengagement. The responsibility, from an international standpoint would remain ours.
Sharon: In my opinion, Israel should shed any responsibility for what happens in Gaza. Everything needs to be opened up. There is no point of taking responsibility over the sewer system, education, health and welfare of millions of Palestinians. 1.8 million of them are supported by international organizations that threaten to hand over the responsibility to us. That is why my basic approach is to open up everything. However, I have accepted the position of the heads of the defense establishment that we will continue to maintain an envelope around Gaza until we realize what unfolds there. After the situation is stabilized, my goal is to completely remove Israel’s responsibility.
Maariv: It wouldn’t pain you to see the Hamas’ green flags waiving on the red rooftops of settlement houses?
Sharon: It would pain me a great deal. But I need to look after the entire nation. The construction of the barrier must be completed, and as you see that too is not easy, there are many petitions to courts.
Maariv: You said that the relationship between the Gaza Strip and Israel is like one between two countries. Would you object to an independent state there?
Sharon: A state could only be established within the framework of [President Bush’s] road map to peace. I have agreed to establish a demilitarized Palestinian state in borders which would be determined at a later date. But there will be no Palestinian state as part of the disengagement plan. That will not happen.
Maariv: Do you believe [Abu Mazen’s former security chief and relative moderate] Mohammed Dahlan could assume control over Gaza?
Sharon: I don’t want to mention any names. We never harmed the Palestinian security forces in Gaza. They have 30 thousand armed men. If they wanted to take action, they would have no problem doing so, but their policy is one of terror. They act only when their own existence is in jeopardy. It must be made clear: a Palestinian state is not part of the disengagement plan.
Maariv: Will Israel continue to hunt down the heads of Hamas -- Rantisi and others?
Sharon: Absolutely.
Maariv: So why is Rantisi more alive than ever?
Sharon: We are operating constantly . The attack against Ahmad Yasin wasn’t the first. We tried to eliminate him in the past as well. We once had them targeted as they all gathered together but out of concern civilians would get hurt, we used smaller bombs that allowed the Hamas leadership to escape.
Maariv: Do you regret that decision?
Sharon: “There is no guarantee of success. There are many successful operations but there are also those which failed. The battle against the leadership of terror will continue. I insist on that.
Maariv: Is the promise you gave President Bush regarding Arafat’s safety still in effect?
Sharon: In the past I accepted that obligation, not to harm him physically. That was during the time he was still greeted with red carpets worldwide. After all, it was Israel and the Oslo Accords that got him into the White House and turned him into a welcomed and honored guest. Today, everyone knows just how harmful he is. As long as Arafat maintains control of the Palestinian security forces in complete contradiction to the road map, Abu Ala cannot even transfer a single security officer from one end of the street to another.
Maariv: So why does Israel not assassinate him?
Sharon: I wouldn’t advise Arafat to view himself as having an insurance policy. He doesn’t. We heard what the chief of staff and defense minister said about that. They expressed themselves clearly.
Maariv: They said one should not rule out the possibility of assassinating him. Aren’t you countermanding them?
Sharon: No.
Maariv: Do you not regret today your assiduous activity to spread the settlers over all those hilltop outposts which you will now dismantle?
Sharon: The settlement enterprise is simply a wonderful thing, maybe the most wonderful in the modern era, or at least in recent times. I told these people what I think of their courage. I especially admire the courage of the women there. I remember my parents had that exact spirit when I was a child. I think in retrospect it was the right thing to do, but many years have passed since then.
Today, in order for us to make progress, there is no choice but to carry out a partial evacuation. I had four options: One, to take over the Palestinian Authority and recapture the entire territory – that is a wrong move. We need to shed the burden of ruling them. Second, there was a possibility to carry out the Geneva Accord which has European backing and support in Israel as well, but it is a naïve plan.
Another option was to do nothing, which is comfortable, and for that there is a convenient cabinet and coalition. But I wasn’t elected to do nothing. From a domestic political standpoint, it is the most convenient to do nothing. However, I believe this sort of vaccum cannot continue. There are many plans being drawn up and the pressure on Israel grew more and more intense. My last option was to make a move, and that was my decision. I have an intimate knowledge of every agreement Israel signed in the past. I would like to tell you that never have I witnessed so many people putting so much effort and thought into a plan”.
Maariv: Let's talk politics. You mentioned before that you bear the responsibility, but here you are passing it on to 200,000 Likud party members. Why? After all, you were elected to lead and decide. Since when does a political party forum make such an important decision? What will you do if you lose the Likud referendum? Will you too accept the judgment of the voters?
Sharon: I spoke clearly on the matter. I believe I will win. Members of the Likud understand the importance of peace and security. This whole attempt to depict the Likud as a war-craving party is not true to its real character.
Maariv: We are not talking about the Likud. You are confronted by the settlers’ council, and a real duel is about to take place. They have plenty of cash and you yourself called them ‘heroes’. They have a tremendous amount of motivation. It won’t be easy.
Sharon: I am the prime minister of this entire nation. I don’t like turning to such methods and means. But I reckon I will succeed. I wanted to perform another kind of referendum - a national one, which would bind everyone. However, after checking the matter it appears that a national referendum requires an amendment to the current law and that could be an endless process. Since time is of the essence, and I thought that a vote in the Likud should be based on a wide electorate, that’s exactly what we’ll do.
Maariv: You didn’t answer my question. Will the results bind you too?
Sharon: I answered your question clearly.
Maariv: You wouldn’t find it problematic to function as a prime minister whose party voted no confidence in him?
Sharon: I believe I will win my party’s support.
P.S. I am leaving out the ending, that has to do with local politics, as I asusme they are only of interest to us Israelis. If anyone want to read these bits too, just follow the link.
Sharon: Gaza settlers' houses may be given to Palestinians evicted from enlarged border zone
Ariel Sharon seems fine. Calm, focused, amused, but angry as well. Never has a prime minister in Israel been so embroiled and surrounded by controversy. The right wing, his historic stronghold, is fighting him, while the left, his greatest rival, is closely testing his every move.
At 76, it is still hard to determine who the real Ariel Sharon is. What does he want and why, where is he headed to and why. Or when. A closet “Mapainik” (Labor party veteran) just reverted to his old ways, an ultra nationalist right-winger still hiding within, or perhaps something in between. Contrary to his usual self, he divulges quite a bit of information.
Maariv: People say that if only you had given [former Palestinian PM] Abu-Mazen one tenth of what you're now offering for free. The evacuation of [the isolated Gaza\ settlement] Netzarim for instance…
Sharon: People say a lot of things. Abu-Mazen didn’t fail because of us. Arafat scuttled his every move. Instead of fighting terror organizations, he did business with them. I have known him for many years. I told him he wouldn’t last, which was exactly what happened.
Did [current Palestinian PM] Abu-Ala’s statement adopting your disengagement plan surprise you?
Sharon: The plan is generating a lot of anxiety among the Arabs. They are trying to counteract it wherever they can. Disengagement is good for Israel and they too understand that. Approval of the plan would be a severe blow to the Palestinians and their dreams, but need to be seen in a certain way while President Bush’s three US envoys are in the region. It's a matter of visibility.
No phase II for disengagement
Maariv: Can you outline the plan? How is it shaping up in practice?
Sharon: Yes. The plan’s outline is to evacuate the Gaza Strip, all of it, except the border area between the Strip and Egypt, the Philadelphi corridor. The defense establishment demanded this exception in view of the massive arms smuggling. I have also discussed this with the Egyptians. As an initial step, we will control the Philadelphi route and boost defenses along the Strip'sperimeter fences.
Maariv: Is there any intent to expand the Philladelphi corridor?
Sharon: From an operational standpoint, it is needed. The mistake was made in Oslo, when the participants agreed it would be only several dozens of meters wide. That plan had no chance of success. Expanding it means razing hundreds of homes and then you will see on television a Palestinian child looking for his doll among the ruins of his house. That is the exact thing Israel does not need. It’s not a simple matter to carry out. We are examining the possibility of giving the families, whose homes were razed, the houses that are to be vacated by the settlers.
Maariv: What about the homes of the settlers, the dolls of their children?
Sharon: I don’t suggest destroying their homes. That is extremely hard. Hard for the settlers, some of whom have already had grandchildren there. It is very hard for me too. I gave much thought to the issue until I reached the conclusion that part of the settlement enterprise, in Gaza probably the entire one, would eventually have to be evacuated. I said this even prior to my first term in office.
Maariv: True, but no one took you seriously.
Sharon: Let me give you a piece of advice: Take me seriously. I said it in the clearest of terms. In addition, all the attempts to determine who influenced me have no basis whatsoever. I would put it this way: Arik influenced Sharon and Sharon influenced Arik. These decisions I take alone. It is a difficult decision, one that caused me a great deal of pain. But it must be done and I hold the responsibility. First and foremost is the well-being and benefit of the entire nation. This move has a price. The entire strip must be evacuated in addition to a number of Samaria settlements.
Maariv: These people, whom you plan to evacuate from their homes, saw you as a father figure.
Sharon: Not every decision of a father seems right to his sons. There is no choice. That is my decision, and I believe it is the correct one. I believe it will contribute to our security and will open the way for a future peace process. When you fence off entire regions and settlements, you terminate many Palestinian dreams. If negotiation they could have gotten much more.
Maariv: How many settlements do you plan to evacuate in Judea and Samaria?
Sharon: We are talking about approximately four.
Maariv: Does the plan have a second stage?
Sharon: No.
Maariv: Do you know for certain what Israel will get in return from the United States? Is there, for instance, a security agreement regarding the question what we may do if the Palestinians fire Katyusha rockets at us from Gaza?
Sharon: “We are in the final stages of this discussion. It will only be finalized at my meeting with President Bush. If your question is whether I know, the answer is yes. In matters pertaining to security we have a full and complete understanding and guarantee.
Maariv: What about an official American approval of the barrier's route extending around the large settlement blocs, including the Ariel enclave?
Sharon: If you wish to enclose it, you can. I don’t believe we have an interest in enclosing it.
Maariv: Why not enclose it and connect it to the Green Line?
Sharon: The settlements will be closed off. Ofra, Beit Aryeh, Peduel, Aley-Zahav, Berukhim and until the cross-Samaria. This region will be completely fenced.
Maariv: Does Washington approve of a de-facto annexation of this territory?
Sharon: We didn’t mention annexation. It is clear to everyone that Israel will not withdraw to the 1967 borderline.
Maariv: Will there be such a declaration?
Sharon: I do not wish to comment on that. In respect of the previous question, what would happen if the Palestinians fire at us from the evacuated territory in Gaza, I would like to emphasize that Israel has a full right to act against terror operating in areas which it evacuates. There will be a non-stop war on terror, whether we are there or not.
Maariv: Many of the IDF’s senior offices disagree with you. They hesitate to say it ‘on the record,’ but believe the disengagement plan is a reward for terrorism. The fact is that Hamas decided to resume the attacks within the 1948 borderline after it had found out about the plan. We are withdrawing under fire, just as we did in southern Lebanon, and by doing so we are allowing them to feel as if they expelled us -- and you, the great believer in “no negotiation under fire” and “no succumbing to terror,” are leading this rout.
Sharon: Regarding the officers, I would be very happy to hear their opinion. After all, I meet with them: With the defense minister, the chief of staff, the regional commands’ major-generals, the heads of military intelligence, Mossad and Security Services. These people have their chance to state their opinions in the clearest fashion. No one prevents them from doing so. On the contrary – I always press officials to voice their thoughts. So I advise them to state their opinion if they have something to say.
Maariv: The chief of staff mentioned the plan would boost terror efforts.
Sharon: Okay. I cannot begin to outline here what the chief of staff told me in our private conversation. But I would suggest to other officers -- who they are, I don’t know -- to schedule appointments with me and voice their opinion.
Maariv: They are also saying that if we stay in control of the Philadelphi corridor and prevent the Palestinians having their own air and sea ports, it’s not really a disengagement. The responsibility, from an international standpoint would remain ours.
Sharon: In my opinion, Israel should shed any responsibility for what happens in Gaza. Everything needs to be opened up. There is no point of taking responsibility over the sewer system, education, health and welfare of millions of Palestinians. 1.8 million of them are supported by international organizations that threaten to hand over the responsibility to us. That is why my basic approach is to open up everything. However, I have accepted the position of the heads of the defense establishment that we will continue to maintain an envelope around Gaza until we realize what unfolds there. After the situation is stabilized, my goal is to completely remove Israel’s responsibility.
Maariv: It wouldn’t pain you to see the Hamas’ green flags waiving on the red rooftops of settlement houses?
Sharon: It would pain me a great deal. But I need to look after the entire nation. The construction of the barrier must be completed, and as you see that too is not easy, there are many petitions to courts.
Maariv: You said that the relationship between the Gaza Strip and Israel is like one between two countries. Would you object to an independent state there?
Sharon: A state could only be established within the framework of [President Bush’s] road map to peace. I have agreed to establish a demilitarized Palestinian state in borders which would be determined at a later date. But there will be no Palestinian state as part of the disengagement plan. That will not happen.
Maariv: Do you believe [Abu Mazen’s former security chief and relative moderate] Mohammed Dahlan could assume control over Gaza?
Sharon: I don’t want to mention any names. We never harmed the Palestinian security forces in Gaza. They have 30 thousand armed men. If they wanted to take action, they would have no problem doing so, but their policy is one of terror. They act only when their own existence is in jeopardy. It must be made clear: a Palestinian state is not part of the disengagement plan.
Maariv: Will Israel continue to hunt down the heads of Hamas -- Rantisi and others?
Sharon: Absolutely.
Maariv: So why is Rantisi more alive than ever?
Sharon: We are operating constantly . The attack against Ahmad Yasin wasn’t the first. We tried to eliminate him in the past as well. We once had them targeted as they all gathered together but out of concern civilians would get hurt, we used smaller bombs that allowed the Hamas leadership to escape.
Maariv: Do you regret that decision?
Sharon: “There is no guarantee of success. There are many successful operations but there are also those which failed. The battle against the leadership of terror will continue. I insist on that.
Maariv: Is the promise you gave President Bush regarding Arafat’s safety still in effect?
Sharon: In the past I accepted that obligation, not to harm him physically. That was during the time he was still greeted with red carpets worldwide. After all, it was Israel and the Oslo Accords that got him into the White House and turned him into a welcomed and honored guest. Today, everyone knows just how harmful he is. As long as Arafat maintains control of the Palestinian security forces in complete contradiction to the road map, Abu Ala cannot even transfer a single security officer from one end of the street to another.
Maariv: So why does Israel not assassinate him?
Sharon: I wouldn’t advise Arafat to view himself as having an insurance policy. He doesn’t. We heard what the chief of staff and defense minister said about that. They expressed themselves clearly.
Maariv: They said one should not rule out the possibility of assassinating him. Aren’t you countermanding them?
Sharon: No.
Maariv: Do you not regret today your assiduous activity to spread the settlers over all those hilltop outposts which you will now dismantle?
Sharon: The settlement enterprise is simply a wonderful thing, maybe the most wonderful in the modern era, or at least in recent times. I told these people what I think of their courage. I especially admire the courage of the women there. I remember my parents had that exact spirit when I was a child. I think in retrospect it was the right thing to do, but many years have passed since then.
Today, in order for us to make progress, there is no choice but to carry out a partial evacuation. I had four options: One, to take over the Palestinian Authority and recapture the entire territory – that is a wrong move. We need to shed the burden of ruling them. Second, there was a possibility to carry out the Geneva Accord which has European backing and support in Israel as well, but it is a naïve plan.
Another option was to do nothing, which is comfortable, and for that there is a convenient cabinet and coalition. But I wasn’t elected to do nothing. From a domestic political standpoint, it is the most convenient to do nothing. However, I believe this sort of vaccum cannot continue. There are many plans being drawn up and the pressure on Israel grew more and more intense. My last option was to make a move, and that was my decision. I have an intimate knowledge of every agreement Israel signed in the past. I would like to tell you that never have I witnessed so many people putting so much effort and thought into a plan”.
Maariv: Let's talk politics. You mentioned before that you bear the responsibility, but here you are passing it on to 200,000 Likud party members. Why? After all, you were elected to lead and decide. Since when does a political party forum make such an important decision? What will you do if you lose the Likud referendum? Will you too accept the judgment of the voters?
Sharon: I spoke clearly on the matter. I believe I will win. Members of the Likud understand the importance of peace and security. This whole attempt to depict the Likud as a war-craving party is not true to its real character.
Maariv: We are not talking about the Likud. You are confronted by the settlers’ council, and a real duel is about to take place. They have plenty of cash and you yourself called them ‘heroes’. They have a tremendous amount of motivation. It won’t be easy.
Sharon: I am the prime minister of this entire nation. I don’t like turning to such methods and means. But I reckon I will succeed. I wanted to perform another kind of referendum - a national one, which would bind everyone. However, after checking the matter it appears that a national referendum requires an amendment to the current law and that could be an endless process. Since time is of the essence, and I thought that a vote in the Likud should be based on a wide electorate, that’s exactly what we’ll do.
Maariv: You didn’t answer my question. Will the results bind you too?
Sharon: I answered your question clearly.
Maariv: You wouldn’t find it problematic to function as a prime minister whose party voted no confidence in him?
Sharon: I believe I will win my party’s support.