NationStates Jolt Archive

I am curious as to how many believe that we were a product of intelligent design or random chance. And if so, what type?

I hope i covered the bases.

The poll cant handle too many choices so i had to combine the eight original down to 5, and omit the other option. :( If you have another choice, please feel free to post it. :)

We are the product of intelligent design.
I myself came into this world with a tag on my toe which read "Inspected by #99".

The appliances sold in our mass consumer economy, however, are the products of random chance. This is why they seldom function as advertised.

I don't feel we could of possibly been created by intelligent design, there are too many stupid people..lol perhaps by unintelligent design? LOL..

Seriously, I'm an atheist.. so that just about says it all on what I believe or should I say don't ;)

if life was created by intelligent design then i demand a refund.

:idea: How about:

Some evolved and some were created.

Those who evolved pass on to their children the capacity to continue evolution and the future hope of something near an organism able to adapt quickly to changing environments.

Those who were created continually pass on precisely the original blueprint, with no increases in adaptability or intelligence.

Since we are throwing all predictable argument to the winds, let us presume that the created individuals were modeled on the evolutionary creature ( a sort of art imitates life thing :D ) and are able to couple and reproduce with the evolutionary creature. We now have offspring with a limited ability to adapt over a longer time to changing environs. (I have chosen not to have the created creature be the 'original' simply because it seems unlikely that a creature would then evolve that is capable of crossbreeding with them when the origins are so disparate.)

The original evolving creatures then continued to adapt rapidly to changes and now in no way resemble 'man' as we define humans. Perhaps they looked around at all the crossbreeds, decided the neighborhood had gone to pot, and headed for the stars. Perhaps not. :wink:

The original created creatures, being unable to adapt to changes, eventually died out leaving behind enough evidence of their existence to cause today's curious types to speculate over evolution/creation.

The offspring of these two continue to reproduce and slowly evolve, which is why some people appear to be 'throwbacks' in either physical mein, mental capacity, or both. This explains why some people are intrigued by and seek out challenges, whether mental or physical, and others fear and avoid them. This also explains why there is such a vast range of possibilities between the two extremes.

if life was created by intelligent design then i demand a refund.

Sorry, warranty ran out on delivery

not all parts were assembled at plant

no the user manual is not included
it costs extra and it's written in Andromodese

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

This fits with my 'theory'!

When Adam and Eve left the garden, there were others outside. This is why their children were able to marry into other groups.

The created beings had long life spans, the evolutionary beings did not. So, the first offspring either didn't survive childhood, or lived hundreds of years. As these long-lived offspring reproduced, their children had shorter and shorter life spans, until they finally reached the life of the evolutionary side of the scale. At this point, life spans slowly began increasing again, very minimumally, based on environment. This is why we now have such diverse life expectancies around the world, and why overall, life expectancy has increased over the last millenia.

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

yeah, but people believe lots of obviously false things, so that isn't exactly surprising.

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

Which one?

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?


The state of the world today isn't God's fault, it's ours. I'm not impressed by sin either, but I am impressed by God's holiness and righteousness.

What God?

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?


The state of the world today isn't God's fault, it's ours. I'm not impressed by sin either, but I am impressed by God's holiness and righteousness.

Well, isn't that convenient. Sin? what sin? you mean war, death, disease and destruction? Seems to me a lot of that is not caused by sin.. I guess you could blame war on sin if you wanted to. How exactly is disease of innocent people "our" fault ? What about innocent children who die because your god doesn't give them enough food to eat? Can we blame that on sin too? I think not. Maybe we should pray for them huh? Because I think they'd need it.. oh right, but what if our prayers aren't answered? Well, I guess it's just god's will, thy will be done. Well if it's god's will and he's going to do what he wants any way, what is the point in praying in the first place? What's the point of being god if every shcmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and mess up your plan right?

Seems to me *IF* that's a big *IF* there is a god, it's a rather petty one. All of this suffering to prove a point. Cause if I'm not mistaken this is all over a family grudge between him and one of his fallen angles that I believe you religious types like to call the devil. Well, if god created arc angels then that means god is stronger and can also destroy these angles as well. So, instead of getting rid of the problem.. this "devil" you want us to believe on basically what amounts to a bet, that for 6000 years gods most loved creatures.. "us" have had to suffer for their dispute? Ya riiiight!

......And if you believe all that.. I have some prime swamp land to sell you too ;)

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?

seriously. it's full of blatant contradictions, and it's not even a creative idea. i would think an all-powerful being could do better than a third grader with some crayons, but the Bible would have you believe otherwise...

If you listen to Art Bell and George Noory (Nory?) on the radio. Billions of years ago we were actually psychic reptilloids, but one of them went back in time and accidentally stepped on its ancestor, and we ceased to exist.

This created a problem with the great Egg of the Euphrates, as it could no longer physically manifest, so it decreed that all the souls that could not now be born but were still in the hall of mirrors be given AT fields to retain individuality.

The great Egg then forced the souls into little mammaloids that could not fit and eventually dissipated out. These dissipated energy began to accumulate in the planet and inadvertantly cause mutations. The little mammaloids began evolving to fit the reptiloid sentience.

But a transdimentional reverberation created a dimensional locus in Hilbert space that was full of stars. It happened upon the hapless evolving mammaloids (now fully transmogrified into australethipicus (sp)) and "Thus Spake Zarathustra" played in the background.

Since then the Gray aliens, the Reptiloids (survivors of what we used to be who were stuck in a pocket dimension), and Nordic Pleiadians have been reaking havoc with our space time continuum trying to make us more like them.

Planet X will come like a billiard ball and knock earth out of its orbit, and we will flee to Mars and discover that it was our reptilian homeland.

when the Hall of Mirrors is empty of souls, and the great egg will eventually come down with clones of Shirley Temple as its chosen avatar. and there is nothing that Majestic 12, the Men in Black, or the Industrial Military Complex can do about it.

Well that about covers it. Time to go take my happy meds.

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

Why would an all-knowing creator give you an appendix?

Why would he/she give you such a high proportion of commoon genes with a chimpanzee?

Why is there one or more new variants of influenza each year? Is influenza actually mutating, or does God just create a couple of new ones each year to keep himself amused?

Creationism is the most stupid theory I have ever seen.

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

Why would an all-knowing creator give you an appendix?

Why would he/she give you such a high proportion of commoon genes with a chimpanzee?

Why is there one or more new variants of influenza each year? Is influenza actually mutating, or does God just create a couple of new ones each year to keep himself amused?

Creationism is the most stupid theory I have ever seen.

I have an appendix so I can locate and understand the hard words.

There is a fine book out by Jonathan Marks, What It Means To Be 98% Chimpanzee, U. of California Press 2002. It looks for human meaning both within and beyond the reductionism of biology.

I'd go with creationism, because, well it's the truth. ;)

The sickness and depravity of the world is caused by man's disobedience to God, which is continual since the fall. Thus God, in his mercy, provided a way for us to pay our debt with his Son, that his blood provided atonement for us.

The Bible is not without error, because it was handled by fallen man, yet it still provides the basic guide to our lives. The Laws of Leviticus were given to the Jews of the day, for their own health at the time.

God demands holiness, and perfection, and we cannot be that, so Christ suffered our punishment for us. The gift of that Salvation is free, it comes through accepting Him in faith.

If you happened to have read Milton's Paradise Lost, this might sound familiar. There was a theory put out by a university professor a while back saying that God may have once created a perfect universe full of happy-go-luckiness...but then it got boring. So he either left it or destroyed it and turned his Easy Bake Earth Maker back on. And thus we were created. Imperfect beings whose lives are easily tampered with and who get into fights over who owns what dirt. It's like pay-per-view quality entertainment for eons to come.

I actually "came up" with this theory myself in literature class, but my teacher burst my bubble by telling me someone else already took it first. So if anyone has the address of the aforementioned professor, I will pay good money. :twisted:

I agree with Smeagol-Gollum except for one thing: don't call Creationism a "theory." It doesn't deserve a scientific classification like that. Theories fit the evidence well, and are backed up by many observations/experiments. Creationism satisfies neither of these conditions: it fails miserably to explain much of the fossil record, genetics, etc., and it remains uncorroborated by any observation or experiment. All the Creationists are now calling a watered-down version of Creationism "Intelligent Design Theory," and are attempting to get it taught in American public schools. IDT is not a theory. It is in no way equal to evolution. It should not be taught in schools. Don't fall for any Creationist propaganda about it.

By the way, Dzang, what is this bizarre school of thought to which you subscribe (or is it ascribe? I don't know...)? Is it a larger community, or just you? Does it involve the ingestion of various hallucinogens?

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?

seriously. it's full of blatant contradictions, and it's not even a creative idea. i would think an all-powerful being could do better than a third grader with some crayons, but the Bible would have you believe otherwise...

I found found that the Genesis narrative of creation is quite self-consistent, and harmonizes with the rest of the Bible. When you look at the universal tolerances needed to keep the universe intact; it takes more than just a third grader with crayons. the universe is so finely tuned (1x10^37th power according to Dr. Hugh Ross)that the odds of it forming on its own are impropable.

"One part in 10^37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billion of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10^37."
Dr. Hugh Ross (an atrophysicist) The Creator and the Cosmos, p. 115.

In quantum mechanics an observer is crucial. I believe that the universe came to existance to create observers. I also believe that no universe can be created without the ability to create observers. How would you classify this? Both I think.

I always hear the "improbable odds" argument from Creationists, and it doesn't get any better the more you repeat it.
First objection: Who is Hugh Ross? Is he biased in either direction (with a book title like his, you would think so)?
Second objection: One in 10^37 are pretty long odds. However, you have to think about how many chances there were for the universe to be the way it is. My science teacher put it best: the odds of you dropping a dime into a 2-liter Coke bottle from the Empire State Building are astronomically low. But if you drop enough dimes...

Anyways, the improbable odds argument is really old and overused. I don't like it. Find a more interesting way to justify Creationism, please.

In quantum mechanics an observer is crucial. I believe that the universe came to existance to create observers. I also believe that no universe can be created without the ability to create observers. How would you classify this? Both I think.

You're refering to Schroedinger's cat I assume?

If you listen to Art Bell and George Noory (Nory?) on the radio...

...the Gray aliens, the Reptiloids (survivors of what we used to be who were stuck in a pocket dimension), and Nordic Pleiadians have been reaking havoc with our space time continuum trying to make us more like them...

...and there is nothing that Majestic 12, the Men in Black, or the Industrial Military Complex can do about it...

...Time to go take my happy meds.

Okay, :wink: go take your "happy meds" :roll: lol

I used to be a Christian and a believer in creationism.......Being a member of community of believers is a comforting ego boost. The basic thought is "I and we are in the know, we are special, we were created by and are chosen by God/Allah/Jehovah/Odin/Ra/whoever, we will live forever while you horrible people that believe in different things will suffer forever."

Every society has its version of a creation story in its myths and religions because people try to answer the important questions of "Where did we some from?" "Why are we here", etc.

In the "modern" age science gives us updated answers to these questions. The answers have to do with quantum mechanics, the big bang, natural selection, and reproductive success. These answers do not necessarily give one comfort, but they are true!

Step boldly in to the void!!

Taking the mature step to question the "truths" that our parents and society teaches us is frightening, but necessary to growing up.

By the way, Dzang, what is this bizarre school of thought to which you subscribe (or is it ascribe? I don't know...)? Is it a larger community, or just you? Does it involve the ingestion of various hallucinogens?



By the way, Dzang, what is this bizarre school of thought to which you subscribe (or is it ascribe? I don't know...)? Is it a larger community, or just you? Does it involve the ingestion of various hallucinogens?

LOL! an exercise in creativity. Construct a reasonably plausible explanation for whatever. The more it covers, the more useful the construction. This is where we get stories based in alternate realities and otherworlds that don't mimic our 'reality' at all. For myself, no drugs necessary.

Does this mean you think the construct is not reasonably plausible?

I always hear the "improbable odds" argument from Creationists, and it doesn't get any better the more you repeat it.
First objection: Who is Hugh Ross? Is he biased in either direction (with a book title like his, you would think so)?
Second objection: One in 10^37 are pretty long odds. However, you have to think about how many chances there were for the universe to be the way it is. My science teacher put it best: the odds of you dropping a dime into a 2-liter Coke bottle from the Empire State Building are astronomically low. But if you drop enough dimes...

Anyways, the improbable odds argument is really old and overused. I don't like it. Find a more interesting way to justify Creationism, please.

If you put the bottle on a pier at New York Harbor and tossed a dime from the top of the empire state building and your odds would be closer. :) But you only get one shot at it. Each time you try reduces the odds.

Fine Tuning Parameters for the Universe

strong nuclear force constant
if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
if smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry

weak nuclear force constant
if larger: too much hydrogen would convert to helium in big bang; hence, stars would convert too much matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
if smaller: too little helium would be produced from big bang; hence, stars would convert too little matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible

gravitational force constant
if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn too rapidly and too unevenly for life chemistry
if smaller: stars would be too cool to ignite nuclear fusion; thus, many of the elements needed for life chemistry would never form

electromagnetic force constant
if greater: chemical bonding would be disrupted; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission
if lesser: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry

ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
if larger: all stars would be at least 40% more massive than the sun; hence, stellar burning would be too brief and too uneven for life support
if smaller: all stars would be at least 20% less massive than the sun, thus incapable of producing heavy elements

ratio of electron to proton mass
if larger: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
if smaller: same as above

ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
if larger: electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
if smaller: same as above

expansion rate of the universe
if larger: no galaxies would form
if smaller: universe would collapse, even before stars formed

entropy level of the universe
if larger: stars would not form within proto-galaxies
if smaller: no proto-galaxies would form

mass density of the universe
if larger: overabundance of deuterium from big bang would cause stars to burn rapidly, too rapidly for life to form
if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang would result in a shortage of heavy elements

velocity of light
if faster: stars would be too luminous for life support if slower: stars would be insufficiently luminous for life support

age of the universe
if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would exist in the right (for life) part of the galaxy
if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed

initial uniformity of radiation
if more uniform: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
if less uniform: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space

average distance between galaxies
if larger: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
if smaller: gravitational tug-of-wars would destabilize the sun's orbit

density of galaxy cluster
if denser: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt the sun's orbit
if less dense: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material

average distance between stars
if larger: heavy element density would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
if smaller: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life

fine structure constant (describing the fine-structure splitting of spectral lines)
if larger: all stars would be at least 30% less massive than the sun
if larger than 0.06: matter would be unstable in large magnetic fields
if smaller: all stars would be at least 80% more massive than the sun

decay rate of protons
if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
if smaller: universe would contain insufficient matter for life

12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger: universe would contain insufficient oxygen for life
if smaller: universe would contain insufficient carbon for life

ground state energy level for 4He
if larger: universe would contain insufficient carbon and oxygen for life
if smaller: same as above

decay rate of 8Be
if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
if faster: no element heavier than beryllium would form; thus, no life chemistry

ratio of neutron mass to proton mass
if higher: neutron decay would yield too few neutrons for the formation of many life-essential elements
if lower: neutron decay would produce so many neutrons as to collapse all stars into neutron stars or black holes

initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons
if greater: radiation would prohibit planet formation
if lesser: matter would be insufficient for galaxy or star formation

polarity of the water molecule
if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too high for life
if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too low for life; liquid water would not work as a solvent for life chemistry; ice would not float, and a runaway freeze-up would result

supernovae eruptions
if too close, too frequent, or too late: radiation would exterminate life on the planet
if too distant, too infrequent, or too soon: heavy elements would be too sparse for rocky planets to form

white dwarf binaries
if too few: insufficient fluorine would exist for life chemistry
if too many: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
if formed too soon: insufficient fluorine production
if formed too late: fluorine would arrive too late for life chemistry

ratio of exotic matter mass to ordinary matter mass
if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars could form
if smaller: no galaxies would form

number of effective dimensions in the early universe
if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist; thus, life would be impossible
if smaller: same result

number of effective dimensions in the present universe
if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable
if larger: same result

mass of the neutrino
if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars would not form
if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies would be too dense

big bang ripples
if smaller: galaxies would not form; universe would expand too rapidly
if larger: galaxies/galaxy clusters would be too dense for life; black holes would dominate; universe would collapse before life-site could form

size of the relativistic dilation factor
if smaller: certain life-essential chemical reactions will not function properly
if larger: same result

uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great and certain life-essential elements would be unstable

cosmological constant
if larger: universe would expand too quickly to form solar-type stars

Dr. Hugh Ross, "Big Bang Refined by Fire", 1998.

If you put the bottle on a pier at New York Harbor and tossed a dime from the top of the empire state building and your odds would be closer. :) But you only get one shot at it. Each time you try reduces the odds.

Why does each try reduce the odds?

My opinion is that given the parameters of the universe: time, space and matter are apparently infinite, and that these three dimensions are constantly changing, our existence as it currently stands, was and is inevitable.

-snip factiods-

Doesn't mean a damn thing. No probability analyses can be meaningful unless we know how many universes their are/were/will be. Who's to say were not one in a gazillion parallel universes?

If you put the bottle on a pier at New York Harbor and tossed a dime from the top of the empire state building and your odds would be closer. :) But you only get one shot at it. Each time you try reduces the odds.

Why does each try reduce the odds?

One try at 12:1 odds gives you a one in twelve probability.

Two tries at 12:1 odds improves your chances, but doesnt reduce the odds does it?

my high school statistics teacher would be ashamed. :oops:

In quantum mechanics an observer is crucial. I believe that the universe came to existance to create observers. I also believe that no universe can be created without the ability to create observers. How would you classify this? Both I think.

You're refering to Schroedinger's cat I assume?

Absolutely.

In quantum mechanics an observer is crucial. I believe that the universe came to existance to create observers. I also believe that no universe can be created without the ability to create observers. How would you classify this? Both I think.

You're refering to Schroedinger's cat I assume?

Absolutely.

Schroedinger proposed the idea as a thought experiement, not something that could actually be tested.

If you put the bottle on a pier at New York Harbor and tossed a dime from the top of the empire state building and your odds would be closer. :) But you only get one shot at it. Each time you try reduces the odds.

Why does each try reduce the odds?

One try at 12:1 odds gives you a one in twelve probability.

Two tries at 12:1 odds improves your chances, but doesnt reduce the odds does it?

my high school statistics teacher would be ashamed. :oops:

I'm not sure I'm following you: were you claiming that there is only one attempt made at creating a universe? or that successive attempts have lesser chances of success, due to them altering some kind of background conditions?

In quantum mechanics an observer is crucial. I believe that the universe came to existance to create observers. I also believe that no universe can be created without the ability to create observers. How would you classify this? Both I think.

You're refering to Schroedinger's cat I assume?

Absolutely.

Schroedinger proposed the idea as a thought experiement, not something that could actually be tested.

Ah, yes, but when we can test this it will be interesting...

Dalles, that was a valiant attempt to defend your idea. I applaud you (claps). However, as someone proposed, what if (and, mind you, this is probably true especially with multiverse theory) there are several gazillion parallel universes? Each with different parameters? Multiverse theory states that not only is this possible, it must be true. There has to be at least one of every outcome of any probabilistic event. Hence, there has to be a universe suitable for life.

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?


The state of the world today isn't God's fault, it's ours. I'm not impressed by sin either, but I am impressed by God's holiness and righteousness.

Well, isn't that convenient. Sin? what sin? you mean war, death, disease and destruction? Seems to me a lot of that is not caused by sin.. I guess you could blame war on sin if you wanted to. How exactly is disease of innocent people "our" fault ? What about innocent children who die because your god doesn't give them enough food to eat? Can we blame that on sin too? I think not. Maybe we should pray for them huh? Because I think they'd need it.. oh right, but what if our prayers aren't answered? Well, I guess it's just god's will, thy will be done. Well if it's god's will and he's going to do what he wants any way, what is the point in praying in the first place? What's the point of being god if every shcmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and mess up your plan right?

Seems to me *IF* that's a big *IF* there is a god, it's a rather petty one. All of this suffering to prove a point. Cause if I'm not mistaken this is all over a family grudge between him and one of his fallen angles that I believe you religious types like to call the devil. Well, if god created arc angels then that means god is stronger and can also destroy these angles as well. So, instead of getting rid of the problem.. this "devil" you want us to believe on basically what amounts to a bet, that for 6000 years gods most loved creatures.. "us" have had to suffer for their dispute? Ya riiiight!

......And if you believe all that.. I have some prime swamp land to sell you too ;)

You (and many here) ask very vaild and reasonable questions that I myself have asked in the past. They're not something that can be looked at lightly or flippantly. If anyone is actually searching for truth on this forum I will be happy to have a conversation with them one to one. You can telegram me anytime.

By sin I mean selfishness, pride, greed, and the other personal things that cause war, death, disease and destruction. Yes I do blame war on sin. Why go to war? You want someone else's whatever (selfishness and greed) or you think you're better than they are (pride). The Bible teaches that all sins and their consqeuences came into the world when sin occured, so in that respect disease, etc, is caused by sin.

Prayers of God's children are always answered, even if they are not when and how you'd expect. Prayer is an exercise of faith. It doesn't mess up God's plan. :)

It is a horrible tragedy that bad things happen to people in this world. However, the Bible teaches it will not always be that way. God IS stronger and will destroy the devil and his angels, after He has brought to Himself all His children, His lost sheep, if you will. And He will create a new heavens and a new earth, ruled by a nail-pierced King. Without suffering, we would not know compassion.

And I do believe all that. I was an agnostic until two years ago. And I believe it because my life has been changed by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, we suffer in this world, but *the eternal God* suffered for that 'dispute', dying on the cross to end it once and for all. We already know who wins. Jesus Christ is God, who became man and humbled Himself to live among us, suffer as we suffer, and forgive the sins of any and all who would believe in Him and trust Him for their salvation.

I can expound on any of these topics or share the story of my salvation if you desire to telegram me. I love these kind of conversations. :)

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?


The state of the world today isn't God's fault, it's ours. I'm not impressed by sin either, but I am impressed by God's holiness and righteousness.

Well, isn't that convenient. Sin? what sin? you mean war, death, disease and destruction? Seems to me a lot of that is not caused by sin.. I guess you could blame war on sin if you wanted to. How exactly is disease of innocent people "our" fault ? What about innocent children who die because your god doesn't give them enough food to eat? Can we blame that on sin too? I think not. Maybe we should pray for them huh? Because I think they'd need it.. oh right, but what if our prayers aren't answered? Well, I guess it's just god's will, thy will be done. Well if it's god's will and he's going to do what he wants any way, what is the point in praying in the first place? What's the point of being god if every shcmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and mess up your plan right?

Seems to me *IF* that's a big *IF* there is a god, it's a rather petty one. All of this suffering to prove a point. Cause if I'm not mistaken this is all over a family grudge between him and one of his fallen angles that I believe you religious types like to call the devil. Well, if god created arc angels then that means god is stronger and can also destroy these angles as well. So, instead of getting rid of the problem.. this "devil" you want us to believe on basically what amounts to a bet, that for 6000 years gods most loved creatures.. "us" have had to suffer for their dispute? Ya riiiight!

......And if you believe all that.. I have some prime swamp land to sell you too ;)

You (and many here) ask very vaild and reasonable questions that I myself have asked in the past. They're not something that can be looked at lightly or flippantly. If anyone is actually searching for truth on this forum I will be happy to have a conversation with them one to one. You can telegram me anytime.

By sin I mean selfishness, pride, greed, and the other personal things that cause war, death, disease and destruction. Yes I do blame war on sin. Why go to war? You want someone else's whatever (selfishness and greed) or you think you're better than they are (pride). The Bible teaches that all sins and their consqeuences came into the world when sin occured, so in that respect disease, etc, is caused by sin.

Prayers of God's children are always answered, even if they are not when and how you'd expect. Prayer is an exercise of faith. It doesn't mess up God's plan. :)

It is a horrible tragedy that bad things happen to people in this world. However, the Bible teaches it will not always be that way. God IS stronger and will destroy the devil and his angels, after He has brought to Himself all His children, His lost sheep, if you will. And He will create a new heavens and a new earth, ruled by a nail-pierced King. Without suffering, we would not know compassion.

And I do believe all that. I was an agnostic until two years ago. And I believe it because my life has been changed by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, we suffer in this world, but *the eternal God* suffered for that 'dispute', dying on the cross to end it once and for all. We already know who wins. Jesus Christ is God, who became man and humbled Himself to live among us, suffer as we suffer, and forgive the sins of any and all who would believe in Him and trust Him for their salvation.

I can expound on any of these topics or share the story of my salvation if you desire to telegram me. I love these kind of conversations. :)

We are large vessels of chemicals that are the products of intelligent molecular activity guiding everything in an effort to survive. Reproductive evolution begins with bacteria. All things smarter than human beings have learned to be quiet.

That's all I remember from 1968, the next 4 years are a blank. When I woke up I was in a field of tall grass swaying in a gentle breeze. "Jesus", I said. And I heard an answer, "Shut up".

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?


The state of the world today isn't God's fault, it's ours. I'm not impressed by sin either, but I am impressed by God's holiness and righteousness.

Well, isn't that convenient. Sin? what sin? you mean war, death, disease and destruction? Seems to me a lot of that is not caused by sin.. I guess you could blame war on sin if you wanted to. How exactly is disease of innocent people "our" fault ? What about innocent children who die because your god doesn't give them enough food to eat? Can we blame that on sin too? I think not. Maybe we should pray for them huh? Because I think they'd need it.. oh right, but what if our prayers aren't answered? Well, I guess it's just god's will, thy will be done. Well if it's god's will and he's going to do what he wants any way, what is the point in praying in the first place? What's the point of being god if every shcmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and mess up your plan right?

Seems to me *IF* that's a big *IF* there is a god, it's a rather petty one. All of this suffering to prove a point. Cause if I'm not mistaken this is all over a family grudge between him and one of his fallen angles that I believe you religious types like to call the devil. Well, if god created arc angels then that means god is stronger and can also destroy these angles as well. So, instead of getting rid of the problem.. this "devil" you want us to believe on basically what amounts to a bet, that for 6000 years gods most loved creatures.. "us" have had to suffer for their dispute? Ya riiiight!

......And if you believe all that.. I have some prime swamp land to sell you too ;)

You (and many here) ask very vaild and reasonable questions that I myself have asked in the past. They're not something that can be looked at lightly or flippantly. If anyone is actually searching for truth on this forum I will be happy to have a conversation with them one to one. You can telegram me anytime.

By sin I mean selfishness, pride, greed, and the other personal things that cause war, death, disease and destruction. Yes I do blame war on sin. Why go to war? You want someone else's whatever (selfishness and greed) or you think you're better than they are (pride). The Bible teaches that all sins and their consqeuences came into the world when sin occured, so in that respect disease, etc, is caused by sin.

Prayers of God's children are always answered, even if they are not when and how you'd expect. Prayer is an exercise of faith. It doesn't mess up God's plan. :)

It is a horrible tragedy that bad things happen to people in this world. However, the Bible teaches it will not always be that way. God IS stronger and will destroy the devil and his angels, after He has brought to Himself all His children, His lost sheep, if you will. And He will create a new heavens and a new earth, ruled by a nail-pierced King. Without suffering, we would not know compassion.

And I do believe all that. I was an agnostic until two years ago. And I believe it because my life has been changed by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, we suffer in this world, but *the eternal God* suffered for that 'dispute', dying on the cross to end it once and for all. We already know who wins. Jesus Christ is God, who became man and humbled Himself to live among us, suffer as we suffer, and forgive the sins of any and all who would believe in Him and trust Him for their salvation.

I can expound on any of these topics or share the story of my salvation if you desire to telegram me. I love these kind of conversations. :)

Many of us believe the instruction manual was written in Hebrew, and Greek and is called the Bible. :)

I gotta go with the Creation Theory of man's existence, as recorded in the Genesis narrative.

If this was the best a "creator" could do.. I'm not impressed! :?


The state of the world today isn't God's fault, it's ours. I'm not impressed by sin either, but I am impressed by God's holiness and righteousness.

Well, isn't that convenient. Sin? what sin? you mean war, death, disease and destruction? Seems to me a lot of that is not caused by sin.. I guess you could blame war on sin if you wanted to. How exactly is disease of innocent people "our" fault ? What about innocent children who die because your god doesn't give them enough food to eat? Can we blame that on sin too? I think not. Maybe we should pray for them huh? Because I think they'd need it.. oh right, but what if our prayers aren't answered? Well, I guess it's just god's will, thy will be done. Well if it's god's will and he's going to do what he wants any way, what is the point in praying in the first place? What's the point of being god if every shcmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and mess up your plan right?

Seems to me *IF* that's a big *IF* there is a god, it's a rather petty one. All of this suffering to prove a point. Cause if I'm not mistaken this is all over a family grudge between him and one of his fallen angles that I believe you religious types like to call the devil. Well, if god created arc angels then that means god is stronger and can also destroy these angles as well. So, instead of getting rid of the problem.. this "devil" you want us to believe on basically what amounts to a bet, that for 6000 years gods most loved creatures.. "us" have had to suffer for their dispute? Ya riiiight!

......And if you believe all that.. I have some prime swamp land to sell you too ;)

You (and many here) ask very vaild and reasonable questions that I myself have asked in the past. They're not something that can be looked at lightly or flippantly. If anyone is actually searching for truth on this forum I will be happy to have a conversation with them one to one. You can telegram me anytime.

By sin I mean selfishness, pride, greed, and the other personal things that cause war, death, disease and destruction. Yes I do blame war on sin. Why go to war? You want someone else's whatever (selfishness and greed) or you think you're better than they are (pride). The Bible teaches that all sins and their consqeuences came into the world when sin occured, so in that respect disease, etc, is caused by sin.

Prayers of God's children are always answered, even if they are not when and how you'd expect. Prayer is an exercise of faith. It doesn't mess up God's plan. :)

It is a horrible tragedy that bad things happen to people in this world. However, the Bible teaches it will not always be that way. God IS stronger and will destroy the devil and his angels, after He has brought to Himself all His children, His lost sheep, if you will. And He will create a new heavens and a new earth, ruled by a nail-pierced King. Without suffering, we would not know compassion.

And I do believe all that. I was an agnostic until two years ago. And I believe it because my life has been changed by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, we suffer in this world, but *the eternal God* suffered for that 'dispute', dying on the cross to end it once and for all. We already know who wins. Jesus Christ is God, who became man and humbled Himself to live among us, suffer as we suffer, and forgive the sins of any and all who would believe in Him and trust Him for their salvation.

I can expound on any of these topics or share the story of my salvation if you desire to telegram me. I love these kind of conversations. :)

Sorry I posted twice. It was an accident. I feel bad taking up so much space.

if life was created by intelligent design then i demand a refund.

Sorry, warranty ran out on delivery

not all parts were assembled at plant

no the user manual is not included
it costs extra and it's written in Andromodese

those bastards! this is america and when something sucks you should be able to get your money back.

According to the Theory of Matter and Energy, nothing is ever really created or destroyed, it is merely transformed from one state of being to another. All the scientific theories of which I am aware deal with the mechanics of this transformation. Even the "Big Bang" theory does not explain the creation of the Universe, it merely explains how all the matter and energy in the Universe was transformed into it's present state.

The Biblical story of Creation seems to say that God created everything instantly out of nothing. It would be unreasonable to judge that story in light of present scientific knowlege, since the people of the time certainly knew very little of what we call "science". They were probably just trying to come up with a theory that made sense to them, which is pretty much what we are still doing today.

Science deals with observable events and processes. If there ever was a true Creation, that is the creation of something from nothing, there would have been no one here to observe it. Any artifacts of the event would be dated from after the moment of Creation, since before that there was nothing to preserve for future study.

I think it is unlikely that Creation occured exactly the way the Bible says it did. Like most stories, there is probably some truth to it, but not as much as some people think. Similarly, scientific theories are constantly being revised and even overthrown. It seems unreasonable to put too much faith in a story that is likely to change before you finish reading it.

I have only recently heard of the Intelligent Design Theory, but it sounds a lot like what I have believed all along. I do not believe in magic, but I also find it hard to believe that all this stuff happened by accident. Perhaps some day Man will know everything there is to know, but that day isn't here yet. If it was, I'm sure that I would know about it.

The Republic of Beaglesonia.
Talks With Beagles - Head Honcho

if life was created by intelligent design then i demand a refund.

Sorry, warranty ran out on delivery

not all parts were assembled at plant

no the user manual is not included
it costs extra and it's written in Andromodese

those bastards! this is america and when something sucks you should be able to get your money back.


:lol:

aww man now I'll never finish my final solution...

By sin I mean selfishness, pride, greed, and the other personal things that cause war, death, disease and destruction. Yes I do blame war on sin. Why go to war? You want someone else's whatever (selfishness and greed) or you think you're better than they are (pride). The Bible teaches that all sins and their consqeuences came into the world when sin occured, so in that respect disease, etc, is caused by sin.

Prayers of God's children are always answered, even if they are not when and how you'd expect. Prayer is an exercise of faith. It doesn't mess up God's plan. :)

It is a horrible tragedy that bad things happen to people in this world. However, the Bible teaches it will not always be that way. God IS stronger and will destroy the devil and his angels, after He has brought to Himself all His children, His lost sheep, if you will. And He will create a new heavens and a new earth, ruled by a nail-pierced King. Without suffering, we would not know compassion.

And I do believe all that. I was an agnostic until two years ago. And I believe it because my life has been changed by the Holy Spirit.

Remember, we suffer in this world, but *the eternal God* suffered for that 'dispute', dying on the cross to end it once and for all. We already know who wins. Jesus Christ is God, who became man and humbled Himself to live among us, suffer as we suffer, and forgive the sins of any and all who would believe in Him and trust Him for their salvation.

I can expound on any of these topics or share the story of my salvation if you desire to telegram me. I love these kind of conversations. :)

The seven deadly sins include pride, envy, glutton, lust, anger, greed, and sloth. You'd think that if God truly loved us, he would've given us more than a half-baked instruction guide that was pretty much moot during the Crusades and Salem witch hunts. But that's besides the point.

What I want to focus on is pride. According to one reasonable source, pride (religious-wise) is defined as "excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God." Sounds about right, no?

From what I've heard, God's "grace" is defined by the fact that he is capable of acting in ways unknown to mankind, whether the result be good or bad. Meaning, no one know's what's God's doing and one must simply have faith in order to believe in him. However, you, along with the majority of Christians/Catholics, seem to be rather certain that he will one day return and bring redemption to most (or at least those who worship him). How then, can you claim to both not know his will and yet be so certain of his will at the same time? That as I see it is the prime definition of pride: thinking that you know for certain what God will do, where, when, how, and why. Okay, maybe not all those, but you get my drift.