NationStates Jolt Archive

That's it...I was trying to be a centrist in this whole affair..to understand the problems and stresses that were tearing at the Iraqis....I was really trying...even to the point of disagreeing most vehemently with those who were for the war....but seeing this...seeing this..sadistic bastards...and yet there are some on here that would say our military is no better..I say look at the friggin bodies..it's not enough that their attackers were cowards, they weren't even allowed a soldier's death...but burned alive...but to add for their sick, twisted behavior they drag their bodies along the street to the cheering of those around them.....

I say waste the friggin entire Sunni Triangle..the rest of the country is pretty much pacified..let the Shiites and Kurds argue over what is left. I have just had a severe blow to my philosophy regarding this whole affair.

I don't want to hear bout "They have reasons"..I don't want to hear "We deserved it"...I don't want to hear anything even remotely resembling support for or acceptance of this type of behavior.

Just one word needed:

DISGUSTING!

Wait a second, now no one is going to say what they did was right, or even bad, it was a horrendous and disgusting act. those responsible deserve the strictest possible punishment.

But your proposing the complete destruction of the Sunni triangle? They hit you so your hitting back with a bigger stick? Doesn't that make you worse? Why would you sink down to the level of these creatures, do you think everyone in the Triangle is like these monsters? Becuase I can assure you the people who did it think all Americans are the same, and deserve the same punishment.

Perhaps before dishing out your idea of justice, you should look in the mirror, you may be disturbed by what looks back.

Wait a second, now no one is going to say what they did was right, or even bad, it was a horrendous and disgusting act. those responsible deserve the strictest possible punishment.

But your proposing the complete destruction of the Sunni triangle? They hit you so your hitting back with a bigger stick? Doesn't that make you worse? Why would you sink down to the level of these creatures, do you think everyone in the Triangle is like these monsters? Becuase I can assure you the people who did it think all Americans are the same, and deserve the same punishment.

Perhaps before dishing out your idea of justice, you should look in the mirror, you may be disturbed by what looks back.I agree completely. You want to turn America/Iraq into Israel/Palestine Salishe? I don't believe in the death penalty even for your own crimes, so I find the view that it should be dished out in the thousands for somebody elses crimes... exceptionally disturbing.

That's it...I was trying to be a centrist in this whole affair..to understand the problems and stresses that were tearing at the Iraqis....I was really trying...even to the point of disagreeing most vehemently with those who were for the war....but seeing this...seeing this..sadistic bastards...and yet there are some on here that would say our military is no better..I say look at the friggin bodies..it's not enough that their attackers were cowards, they weren't even allowed a soldier's death...but burned alive...but to add for their sick, twisted behavior they drag their bodies along the street to the cheering of those around them.....

I say waste the friggin entire Sunni Triangle..the rest of the country is pretty much pacified..let the Shiites and Kurds argue over what is left. I have just had a severe blow to my philosophy regarding this whole affair.

I don't want to hear bout "They have reasons"..I don't want to hear "We deserved it"...I don't want to hear anything even remotely resembling support for or acceptance of this type of behavior.
Strange. Are you sure they were soldiers? The BBC says they were civilian contractors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

I share your grief and pain. The "reasons" of those who did it were irrelevant, they were a blood thursty, abominable lynching mob. I wouldn't mourn a single person who laid his hands on dead bodies of other human beings out of pure hatred, to dismember them and deny them a decent burial. There were no innocents in that crowd.
The thing is, these people are not the whole of the Sunni triangle. If you caught them while they were committing their crime and opened fire at them- it wouldn't be a lawful thing to do, but it would be hard for me to blame you. But I am absolutely sure that not all Sunnis are like that. Most of them aren't. Most of them are people who would be happy to live their life and mind their business, and would not engage in barbaric rampage like that. You cannot blame all Sunnis, from babies to elderly, for the actions of the gunmen- as tempting as it is sometimes to blame them all collectively.

You know, I've lost a good friend a year ago. She was killed in a suicide bombing when she was waiting for a bus on her way home. It wasn't easy for me to not blame the Palestinians as a whole for what the bomber did- but if I did, I would have to also hate Yara, a good friend of mine, who is Palestinian- and I know damn well what she thinks of suicide bombers. Don't EVER paint any group of people with the same brush.

Strange. Are you sure they were soldiers? The BBC says they were civilian contractors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

So does every other news agency.
And didn't I cut you up and sold your organs on E-bay?

Strange. Are you sure they were soldiers? The BBC says they were civilian contractors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

So does every other news agency.
And didn't I cut you up and sold your organs on E-bay?
Oh come on. Like you didn't know that the all powerful Jewish Lobby would render the deals illegal and resurrect me in a government funded project :twisted:

Strange. Are you sure they were soldiers? The BBC says they were civilian contractors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

So does every other news agency.
And didn't I cut you up and sold your organs on E-bay?
Oh come on. Like you didn't know that the all powerful Jewish Lobby would render the deals illegal and resurrect me in a government funded project :twisted:
Ah, cool. Cause I still got my profits. Mind if I cut you open again and sell those organs to other suckers? We could make a fortune!!!! Your a Jew, you can't say no!!!

You shouldn't be there in the first place so if you don't like the consequences you should p!ss off back to your own country.

Strange. Are you sure they were soldiers? The BBC says they were civilian contractors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

So does every other news agency.
And didn't I cut you up and sold your organs on E-bay?
Oh come on. Like you didn't know that the all powerful Jewish Lobby would render the deals illegal and resurrect me in a government funded project :twisted:
Ah, cool. Cause I still got my profits. Mind if I cut you open again and sell those organs to other suckers? We could make a fortune!!!! Your a Jew, you can't say no!!!
But I CAN advise you to check out your bank account. I am fairly sure that the compensation they paid me was from someone's confiscated money... :wink:

just to clarify, I believe there were both civilian' contractors and soldiers who died today, but it was indeed civilians who's bodies were... violated. However, my sympathies are mixed, as clearly they knew the risks involved. I also have troubled condemning people for resisting invaders, no matter how dubious their alternative may be.

Strange. Are you sure they were soldiers? The BBC says they were civilian contractors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

So does every other news agency.
And didn't I cut you up and sold your organs on E-bay?
Oh come on. Like you didn't know that the all powerful Jewish Lobby would render the deals illegal and resurrect me in a government funded project :twisted:
Ah, cool. Cause I still got my profits. Mind if I cut you open again and sell those organs to other suckers? We could make a fortune!!!! Your a Jew, you can't say no!!!
But I CAN advise you to check out your bank account. I am fairly sure that the compensation they paid me was from someone's confiscated money... :wink:
*counts his money* Huh? Bank account? Isn't that how the IRS tracks you? Well, I'd hate to be the poor f*ck who had to pick up my bill. :twisted:
So, how about it?

just to clarify, I believe there were both civilian' contractors and soldiers who died today, but it was indeed civilians who were killed. However, my sympathies are mixed, as clearly they knew the risks involved. I also have troubled condemning people for resisting invaders, no matter how dubious their alternative may be.
I didn't hear any Americans cry havoc when that German and Brit where killed 2, 3 days ago.

I'm with you Mallberta

Maybe the US should be nuked to oblivion for all the muders of innocent middle easterners after 9/11. Because of course that makes all U.S.'ers violent savages.

I had a friend who ran a liquor store in LA. He was turning to get something for a customer when that customer pulled out a gun and shot him in the head because he wore a turban.

:(

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

just to clarify, I believe there were both civilian' contractors and soldiers who died today, but it was indeed civilians who were killed. However, my sympathies are mixed, as clearly they knew the risks involved. I also have troubled condemning people for resisting invaders, no matter how dubious their alternative may be.
I didn't hear any Americans cry havoc when that German and Brit where killed 2, 3 days ago.

:roll:

Was the German and Brit, set afire, mutilated, dragged through the streets and hung on a bridge, cut down then dragged through the streets again?

That doesn't offend you? :shock:

just to clarify, I believe there were both civilian' contractors and soldiers who died today, but it was indeed civilians who were killed. However, my sympathies are mixed, as clearly they knew the risks involved. I also have troubled condemning people for resisting invaders, no matter how dubious their alternative may be.
I didn't hear any Americans cry havoc when that German and Brit where killed 2, 3 days ago.

:roll:

Was the German and Brit, set afire, mutilated, dragged through the streets and hung on a bridge, cut down then dragged through the streets again?

That doesn't offend you? :shock:
They were shot. They were civilians. They weren't part of the interim regime. And no American was whining about hunting down the vermin. Probably didn't even knew about it. And no. That thingy with the Americans doesn't offend me.

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

Man, I'd bet dollars to dimes that if the positions were reveresed, and the Iraqis had invaded America, you'd be on the front lines doing what ever you could to resist (not as an insult, I just see you as the 'fighter' type...). There's something to be said for resisting invaders. Period. THey don't want the Americans there, and the American's have no right to be there. I'd fight too, in all likelyhood. There is a difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, but fighting invaders is by defintion freedom fighting (freedom from what? is the obvious question in this case).

That being said, I wouldn't drag bodies through the streets. ANd it's unfortunate that civilians were involved, and I do sympathize with their families. But on the other hand I'm sure they're getting hazard pay for a reason.

You shouldn't be there in the first place so if you don't like the consequences you should p!ss off back to your own country.

Feel better now? :roll:

. . .

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

Man, I'd bet dollars to dimes that if the positions were reveresed, and the Iraqis had invaded America, you'd be on the front lines doing what ever you could to resist (not as an insult, I just see you as the 'fighter' type...). There's something to be said for resisting invaders. Period. THey don't want the Americans there, and the American's have no right to be there. I'd fight too, in all likelyhood. There is a difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, but fighting invaders is by defintion freedom fighting (freedom from what? is the obvious question in this case).

That being said, I wouldn't drag bodies through the streets. ANd it's unfortunate that civilians were involved, and I do sympathize with their families. But on the other hand I'm sure they're getting hazard pay for a reason.
Americans just expect that after invade, offend etc..someone, nation, person whatever that they get cookies for doing so and never ending graditude. You know, like: WE SAVED FRANCE. THEY OWE US!!!! Something along those lines.

One resident displayed what appeared to be dog tags taken from one body. Residents also said there were weapons in the targeted cars. APTN showed an American passport near a body and a U.S. Department of Defense (news - web sites) identification card belonging to another man.



Some of the slain contractors were wearing flak jackets, resident Safa Mohammedi said.
(http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040331/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)

Don't sound that much like innocent civilians to me...

One resident displayed what appeared to be dog tags taken from one body. Residents also said there were weapons in the targeted cars. APTN showed an American passport near a body and a U.S. Department of Defense (news - web sites) identification card belonging to another man.



Some of the slain contractors were wearing flak jackets, resident Safa Mohammedi said.
(http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040331/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)

Don't sound that much like innocent civilians to me...

just to clarify, I believe there were both civilian' contractors and soldiers who died today, but it was indeed civilians who were killed. However, my sympathies are mixed, as clearly they knew the risks involved. I also have troubled condemning people for resisting invaders, no matter how dubious their alternative may be.
I didn't hear any Americans cry havoc when that German and Brit where killed 2, 3 days ago.

:roll:

Was the German and Brit, set afire, mutilated, dragged through the streets and hung on a bridge, cut down then dragged through the streets again?

That doesn't offend you? :shock:
They were shot. They were civilians. They weren't part of the interim regime. And no American was whining about hunting down the vermin. Probably didn't even knew about it. And no. That thingy with the Americans doesn't offend me.

Interesting.

Hate to tell you slick if this incident were other nationals, Americans would be disgusted by it.

You really don't have a clue to what the Americans think.

The fact the incident does not bother you makes me wonder what kind of a person you really are.....

Ahhh well, the Net allows all kinds to express their "views."

I blame this multiple posting on gay marraige. Damn uppity homos.

One resident displayed what appeared to be dog tags taken from one body. Residents also said there were weapons in the targeted cars. APTN showed an American passport near a body and a U.S. Department of Defense (news - web sites) identification card belonging to another man.



Some of the slain contractors were wearing flak jackets, resident Safa Mohammedi said.
(http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040331/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)

Don't sound that much like innocent civilians to me...

I read a newsbit that said the company they worked for like to hire ex-military types. The company provides security forces training.

Then another said one guy was a department of defense type.

As to the weapons and body armor? Well we only have their word. Has anybody else seen them?

Interesting.

Hate to tell you slick if this incident were other nationals, Americans would be disgusted by it.

You really don't have a clue to what the Americans think.

The fact the incident does not bother you makes me wonder what kind of a person you really are.....

Ahhh well, the Net allows all kinds to express their "views."
I must have missed those threads of disgust then. :roll: But when it happened to a bunch of Americans out of nowehere theres one.
Makes me wonder what kind of people Americans are. No wait, it doesn't.

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

Man, I'd bet dollars to dimes that if the positions were reveresed, and the Iraqis had invaded America, you'd be on the front lines doing what ever you could to resist (not as an insult, I just see you as the 'fighter' type...). There's something to be said for resisting invaders. Period. THey don't want the Americans there, and the American's have no right to be there. I'd fight too, in all likelyhood. There is a difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, but fighting invaders is by defintion freedom fighting (freedom from what? is the obvious question in this case).

That being said, I wouldn't drag bodies through the streets. ANd it's unfortunate that civilians were involved, and I do sympathize with their families. But on the other hand I'm sure they're getting hazard pay for a reason.
Americans just expect that after invade, offend etc..someone, nation, person whatever that they get cookies for doing so and never ending graditude. You know, like: WE SAVED FRANCE. THEY OWE US!!!! Something along those lines.

You know you should quit while you are behind. This again only shows how little you really understand Americans.

As to the "We Saved France" logic. Come on slick. Think it through. Using your logic, we could say that all Muslims belive in burning and mutilating bodies. :roll:

This was one of the most horrifying things that I've ever seen.

There can be no justification for killing civilians and then dragging their charred bodies through the streets and then hung from a bridge whilst men and women danced around them as part of some kind of sickening parade. In light of such a horrendous absence of even the most basic sense of morality and worthiness my initial reaction was one of fury and I was tempted to say "f**k the lot of them and withdraw" (in fact I did).

Yet you cannot blame an entire religion or even an entire country for the actions of one group, we knew the potential costs of getting involved and the hostility many Iraqis feel towards the US and the west and we went in. Objectively this incident changes nothing. That said, I cannot help but feel enormous anger over what has happened.

Many of you may not support the war in Iraq and its subsequent occupation, you may not like the US and may even sympathise with those who use force to repel what they see as a hostile imperial power. I would urge you not to be politically blinkered and look again, I will repeat.

"Their charred bodies were dragged through the streets and then hung from a bridge whilst men and women danced around them".

There is no justification.

I read a newsbit that said the company they worked for like to hire ex-military types. The company provides security forces training.

Then another said one guy was a department of defense type.

As to the weapons and body armor? Well we only have their word. Has anybody else seen them?

Was anyone else there? :roll:

I'd be suprised if they didn't have weapons and armor. It'd be quite foolish. It doesn't change the fact that driving expensive SUVs into contested/rebellious areas is NEVER a good idea. It shouldn't have been a suprise to anyone, nor do I consider the attacks on these contractors terribly obscene (though the treatments of their corpses certainly was) given the situation.

Reminds me of the "black hawk down" thing.

I know this isn't related, but did you know that the photo of the american corpse being dragged through the streets was photoshopped?

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

Agreed Salishe, the guilty should pay. However you step across a moral line when you argue for blowing away the whole Sunni Triangle because of the actions of a few. A line that most of us aren't quite as willing to ignore.

-Z-

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

Agreed Salishe, the guilty should pay. However you step across a moral line when you argue for blowing away the whole Sunni Triangle because of the actions of a few. A line that most of us aren't quite as willing to ignore.

-Z-

Interesting.

Hate to tell you slick if this incident were other nationals, Americans would be disgusted by it.

You really don't have a clue to what the Americans think.

The fact the incident does not bother you makes me wonder what kind of a person you really are.....

Ahhh well, the Net allows all kinds to express their "views."
I must have missed those threads of disgust then. :roll: But when it happened to a bunch of Americans out of nowehere theres one.
Makes me wonder what kind of people Americans are. No wait, it doesn't.

That's ok slick. I understand you are ignorant.

Again, if this incident involved say four Frenchmen, Americans would be disgusted by it.

I can keep explaining it to you untill you understand :roll:

I suppose not a single iraqi citizen was burned to death when that bush decided to attack the country.

I suppose not a single iraqi citizen was burned to death when that bush decided to attack the country.

That maybe.

But you don't have American soldiers dancing around the bodies and mutilating them.

I suppose not a single iraqi citizen was burned to death when that bush decided to attack the country.

Earlier atrocities do not excuse later atrocities: is the whole point not to bring an end to abuse?

My qualm is with this griping and moaning about how horrible it is that a few americans were killed being where they had no business.

The iraqis owe us nothing, we are interlopers in their nation and if they choose to vent anger on the bodies of a few occupiers, we have no moral ground from which to criticize them.

And by the accounts i've read, the americans who died werent even members of the military, rather 'contractors,' on whom the war can be blamed to begin with.

That bush is the one who shoulders the blame for what happened in Fallujah.

No Iraqi citizen was harmed in the making of this war.

Seriously, yes innocent people died, not intentionally.

In every country there are those who would behave in this manner. Also in every country, there are those who would retaliate in exactly the way you suggest.

We could at least spend thirty seconds or so being thankful the victims were already dead when the bodies were mutilated this time. We could also spend 30 seconds considering why they were there. These are people who chose to enter a warzone, for whatever reason. One assumes they noticed it was a warzone, and realised the dangers. They chose to take that risk.

It amazes me that you are more upset over dead bodies being disrespected than over the deaths themselves. It also amazes me that you are more upset by the deaths of people who are there for profit than by the deaths of the 5 soldiers (present under orders) whose vehicle was blown up. (Yes, the soldiers also know the danger, but the reality is that they have less choice in being there than contractors do.)

These people were caught up in a mob. Mobs do not behave rationally, this has been shown time and time again. People in enraged crowds often do things they would never think of doing on their own, whether they are in the Middle East or the MidWest. If you want to take your gun and go over and hunt down the people photographed committing these deeds, go for it. But in attacking an entire region based on the behavior of the comparatively few in this crowd, you become one with the mob you seek to destroy.

It amazes me that you are more upset over dead bodies being disrespected than over the deaths themselves.

It's probably a case of "If they are so willing to do that, then what's next?"

However, it it were Americans doing that to Iraqi dead, the Islamic world would go beserk. If not the rest......

Whats Disgusting in this, Stuff like this happens, everywere, even in western society, buildings blow up, people die, theres more murder in the US then anywere else in the world, the only difference is western morales are different from Islamic morales, and ive no problem with that, if bodies get dragged, i dont condone it, but i cant do anything about it but try to change there view,and ultimatly all we can do is discuss it, or murder the lot of them based on are own views.

And face it, you dont need your body after your dead, its just an empty shell, so Be upset about the deaths not the way there bodies were treated!

Whats Disgusting in this, Stuff like this happens, everywere, even in western society, buildings blow up, people die, theres more murder in the US then anywere else in the world, the only difference is western morales are different from Islamic morales, and ive no problem with that, if bodies get dragged, i dont condone it, but i cant do anything about it but try to change there view,and ultimatly all we can do is discuss it, or murder the lot of them based on are own views.

And face it, you dont need your body after your dead, its just an empty shell, so Be upset about the deaths not the way there bodies were treated!

That maybe so.

But again, if Americans had done that to Iraqi dead, people would be howling with rage. So it might not be a case of cultural differences....

It amazes me that you are more upset over dead bodies being disrespected than over the deaths themselves.

It's probably a case of "If they are so willing to do that, then what's next?"

However, it it were Americans doing that to Iraqi dead, the Islamic world would go beserk. If not the rest......
If it were Americans doing that to the Iraqi dead, I would go berserk as well. I wish I could believe that no American ever would, but I cannot. I would be utterly appalled, and undoubtably would gain much American animosity protesting the behavior of my fellow Americans.

It seems to me that too many people forget that we are all just people, and as such, are all subject to the same flaws of human nature. We all have to work to know who is leading us astray and who is leading toward something good. Unfortunately the number of people willing to think first and then act seems to be much smaller than the number of people willing to drag dead bodies through the street.

The best thing George Bush ever did was to take time to investigate 9-11 and attempt to cool off before addressing the attack. That is an example we could all stand to follow. Stop. Think. Then act, in a manner designed to resolve the problem, not ascerbate it.

"The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility -- you might as well talk of humanising hell!"
-- Admiral of the Fleet Sir John Fisher

According to The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/01/international/middleeast/01IRAQ.html?ei=5062&en=fe0864f812d776f1&ex=1081400400&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=)
They worked for Blackwater Security Consulting of Moyock, N.C., providing security for food delivery in the Falluja area, according to a statement from the company. The occupation authorities have hired hundreds of private security guards for a range of duties.
Witnesses in Falluja said several of the men had Defense Department badges, though such identification is common for contractors working for the occupation authorities. A senior military officer said the four were all retired Special Operations forces - three Navy Seals and one Army Ranger. In the past three weeks, more than 10 foreign civilians have been killed in Iraq, though no attack provoked the spasm of brutality that followed this one.

So, yes they were ex-military. Also note that the US press took note of the non-US deaths.

A group of boys yanked a smoldering body into the street and ripped it apart. Someone then tied a chunk of flesh to a rock and tossed it over a telephone wire. ... Nearby, a boy no older than 10 ground his heel into a burned head. "Where is Bush?" the boy yelled. "Let him come here and see this!" ... Men swarmed around the riddled vehicles. Some witnesses said the Americans were still alive when one boy came running up with a jug of gasoline. Soon, both vehicles were fireballs. ...
After the fires cooled, a group of boys tore the corpses out of the vehicles. The crowd cheered them on. The boys dragged the blackened bodies to the iron bridge over the Euphrates River, about a mile away. Some people said they saw four bodies hanging over the water, some said only two.

This is perhapse the worst aspect - the mutilations were done by children, with at least tacit concent of, and quite possibly encouragement from, their parents, .
People who teach their children this kind of beahvior, regardless of their culture, are evil.

At sunset, nurses from a nearby hospital tried to take the bodies away.
Men with guns threatened to kill the nurses. The nurses left. The bodies remained.

Clearly you can*t blaim it all on "evil Arab culture".

The pictures made me sick.

I really had to cool down before I posted back on this..but unbelievably to me there were apologists for these individual's actions and a couple of you stated you weren't even offended...lends me to believe that if you'd been there and I handed over some gasoline if you'd douse the bodies with it. I am saddened by the fact that nurses were actually turned away at gunpoint after these vermin had gotten their rocks off by torturing and mutilating American dead....you see..this is why I love being an Indian.. my people in war never had a problem dealing with our enemies..it is a shame I couldn't take over there a Division of Apache, Sioux, Southern Cheyenne, Mohawk, or Piute over there...they want to torture our bodies...we would show them the errors of their ways. It is regretful that the Americans ever "civilized" us..we lost the edge as warriors.

I really had to cool down before I posted back on this..but unbelievably to me there were apologists for these individual's actions and a couple of you stated you weren't even offended...lends me to believe that if you'd been there and I handed over some gasoline if you'd douse the bodies with it. I am saddened by the fact that nurses were actually turned away at gunpoint after these vermin had gotten their rocks off by torturing and mutilating American dead....you see..this is why I love being an Indian.. my people in war never had a problem dealing with our enemies..it is a shame I couldn't take over there a Division of Apache, Sioux, Southern Cheyenne, Mohawk, or Piute over there...they want to torture our bodies...we would show them the errors of their ways. It is regretful that the Americans ever "civilized" us..we lost the edge as warriors.
Don't let the apologists get to you. Their opinion is not worth losing your calm over. The world is full of stupid, ignorant people, forever stuck in childish mentality. Just keep one thing in mind: you are out there, making a difference. They are at home, talking crap. You know facts on the ground, first hand. They only know what the media vultures bother to deliver, after adding their own bias and distortions. It doesn't matter what they say, its what you do that counts. I wish you luck in your dangerous, difficult, ungrateful job, and I hope you do it right and not let your anger cloud your judgement. It is the ability to keep your calm and calculate your actions, not brutality, that makes a warrior.

I'm gratified by the comments from Daistallia 2104, Genaia, Dzang and Womblingdon. All make clear-headed and varied points well worth paying attention to. For Salishe and others, I sympathise with you, but do not fully agree, by any means. The people I'm dismayed by are those who would ordinarily be my allies on this forum who have tried to blame the US for this atrocity.

The acts carried out remind me of the Roman tradition of exposing the corpse of a traitor to the steps of the senate. The crowd would then defile the corpse over a few days before it was eventually thrown in the Tiber. It's shcoking this still happens. Shocking is too weak a word, this is indescribable.

There are times when one should put political beliefs of whatever shade aside in the face of violence and violation. It doesn't matter why the victims were there. It doesn't matter what religion the perpetrators are. It doesn't matter what nationality the victims were. Don't try and justify barbarism. It is as it is and should be condemned outright.

My hope is that we won't see this again.

Shock & Awe: Is Baghdad the Next Hiroshima?
by Ira Chernus

Have your heard of Harlan Ullman? Everyone in the White House and the Pentagon has. They may very well follow his plan for war in Iraq. He wants to do to Baghdad what we did to Hiroshima.

Ullman is what they call a “defense intellectual.” He was the Navy's “head of extended planning” and taught at the National War College. One of his students was Secretary of State Colin Powell, who says he “raised my vision several levels.”

What Powell and everyone in the Bush administration sees now is Ullman’s vision for high-tech war. He calls it “rapid dominance,” or “shock and awe.” The idea is to scare the enemy to death. To win, you don’t need to inflict physical pain and destruction. Just the fear of pain, and the massive confusion it creates, is enough.

Ullman wants the U.S. to (in his words) “deter and overpower an adversary through the adversary’s perception and fear of his vulnerability and our own invincibility.” “This ability to impose massive shock and awe, in essence to be able to 'turn the lights on and off' of an adversary as we choose, will so overload the perception, knowledge and understanding of that adversary that there will be no choice except to cease and desist or risk complete and total destruction."

Ullman is ready to use every kind of weapon to create shock and awe. He once said it might be a good idea to use electromagnetic waves that attack peoples’ neurological systems, “to control the will and perception of adversaries, by applying a regime of shock and awe. It is about effecting behavior."

When it comes to Iraq, Ullman likes the idea of cruise missiles -- lots of them, right away. CBS News reports that Ullman’s ideas are the basis for the Pentagon’s war plan. The U.S. will smash Baghdad with up to 800 cruise missiles in the first two days of the war. That’s about one every four minutes, day and night, for 48 hours.

The missiles will hit far more than just military targets. They will destroy everything that makes life in Baghdad livable. "We want them to quit. We want them not to fight," Ullman told CBS reporter David Martin. So “you take the city down. You get rid of their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted."

Ullman is sure it will work as well in 2003 as it did in 1945: “You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but in minutes." "Super tools and weapons -- information-age equivalents of the atomic bomb -- have to be invented," he wrote in the Economic Times. "As the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki finally convinced the Japanese Emperor and High Command that even suicidal resistance was futile, these tools must be directed towards a similar outcome.”

When he first invented “rapid dominance,” Ullman talked about an “eight-level hierarchy of shock and awe,” with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the top. Now, it seems, that’s where he wants to start.

Is the Hiroshima model just a metaphor? Ullman recently wrote that one way to “shock and awe” Saddam is to remind him that the U.S. has “certain weapons” that can destroy deeply buried facilities. That’s a not-even-thinly-veiled reference to the newest kind of nuclear weapons, the B-61 “bunker-busters.” L.A. Times columnist William Arkin has confirmed that the U.S. is preparing to use “bunker-busters” against Iraq. That would “break down the firewall separating nuclear weapons from everything else,” Arkin warns, and “forever pit the Arab and Islamic world against us.”

Suppose we drop the nuke in the wrong place? Even Harlan Ullman admits it could easily happen: “Of course, there will always be intelligence gaps, and no solution is perfect.” But that’s just the point. “The threat would be a Damoclean sword that might or might not descend.” In other words, the fear of nukes falling who-knows-where would scare them into surrendering without a fight. Let other Islamic nations get as angry as they like. We’ll just shock and awe them too.

And why not North Korea, while we’re at it? Ullman wants a nuclear threat there, if North Korean leaders don’t heel to U.S. commands: “To remind the North of its vulnerability, one or more Trident ballistic submarines could be permanently assigned to target North Korea.” Tridents carry 240 nuclear warheads each. One Trident might not be enough, it seems. When you use shock and awe, you use it big-time.

So here we are, preparing to destroy a huge modern city, kill tens of thousands, and threaten nuclear attack -- all against people who have not fired a single bullet at us. Yes, it’s about oil. But it’s also about shock and awe, putting on a terrifying show for the whole world to see.

If all this leaves you in shock and awe, you have had your vision raised several levels too. You see what Ullman, Powell, and all the Bushies see: the U.S. frightening the whole world so badly that no one will dare fire a single bullet at us. Let them be as angry as they like, just so they know who is the meanest, toughest son of a bitch on the global block.

That is now becoming the essence of U.S. foreign policy. And they seriously believe it will put an end to war. I suppose the Romans believed it too.

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0127-08.htm

*************************************************************
While I do not condone the sadistic images coming out of Iraq today, there is a way to prevent further atrocities. Get out of Iraq, before this gets much, much worse. The Iraqui people have been far more resilient than they were given credit for, even with Saddam in captivity. The hate towards America by other Arab/Islamic nations is growing daily. America will never be able to "win" this war.

I remember being disgusted by the term "Shock and Awe" when it was used on a daily basis by CNN. How crass. How many Americans glued themselves to the TV every night, watching this onslaught against a nation that had not fired a single bullet at an American? How many of you were impressed by the amount of damage that was being done by these "smart" bombs on these dumb people? How many of you cheered?

The war against the Taliban and Bin Laden was certainly justified for their unprovoked attack against America. But the war against Iraq is just plain immoral, and unjusified.

Who is in shock now?

A very special to Salishe with his double standards .Wobber is welcome to for learning something.



IMAGE BUILDING:

3 oktober 1993.


18 US elite troops die in a total failure action in Mogadishu. The image that most US citizens remember from this is the one of a lynched US trooper witch body is trown in the dust of the streets. This image became THE icone of the Somalia debacle, witch lead to the redrawel of all US troops there.

31 march 2004. In Falluja,the capital of the resistance, 4 foreign (US) businessmen die in a rocket launched attack. Their carbonised bodies are town at cars in the dust of the streets, later on, they are hanged on a bridge. In proximity, laughing children. Those children make the "V" sign. This image can and mostly will be THE icone of the Iraqi debacle, with or withouth the retreat of US troops.
No public opinion stays "cold" when it sees such immages. They remember us the face of war, the face of barbary that each conflict wears. Those situations are no exeptions in a conflict.

In wars, every day people die a terrible dead, hit by a grenade, traped on a landmine or blown to peaces with a dum dum bullet. In war, every day dead corpses are dehumanised by the fighting opponents. Not only in the Middle East or Africa but also in Chechnya, were Russian soldiers cut of the ears of their victims and were them around their neck. The thing that makes those images special is that we can see them. They remind us above all that often, we don't see how war really is.

Men can only hope that the nations that occupy Iraq now, especcially the US and the UK, take their conclusions about the stategy and like we saw, about the madness to wich has led their behaviour in Iraq.

Imagebuilding will become very important. Just as like today, most US citizens remember the Somali drama only from the Hollywood blockbuster "Blackhawk Down". This movie was announced in the US as a " clear recognition of heroisisme and loyalty of the US soldier". Not only the real images were banned out of the collective memory, but also the reality of Somalia 1993 was banned. Only few still remember now that a US commando squad bombed 3 months before the debacle a villa to the ground in wich, on that moment all intellectual and spiritual leaders of Mogadishu gathered (in the movie, they where "looking for Aideed". In real, it was a failure, they hit other people)
54 People did not survive this attack. The massacre took place on monday 12 july 1993, a day that is called now by the Somallies "Bloody Monday".

Iraq also knew some Bloody Days. This time a year ago, the "coallition" attacks on Bagdad and its surroundings were at their heaviest. Innocent civilians also burned alive in this. There carbonised bodies also lied un the streets unhumanised. Only we, in the West did not see those images. We only saw the "collateral damage" that was pointed out for us by the Pentagon strategists on satelite images. The Iraqis themselves did see those images. On broadcasts like Al-Jazeera, or just in their garden, they saw US soldiers that were smoking, very relaxed, a sigarete in front of the remains of dead Iraqi civilians. They saw how those GI's made the "V" sign, made jokes and laught. Those soldiers thought they were liberating Iraq, but they were wrong/mistake.

Imagebuilding in times of war can be as deadly as a weapon. That was proven 2 days ago.


So Salishe, please open you eyes. And please, don't use the word "neutral" again in your posts. It is a disgrace for the word itself.

I know a lot of US citizens that are neural, you are not one of them. When you are neutral, Goebels and Beria were neutral to. You must be blind to not see the wrong in the world and still propapaganda your double standard.

Above is a post, a neutral one. (not for you of course, you will see the centrist like I am as exterme right or left, I don't have illusions on your poor capabilities).

A very special to Salishe with his double standards (wow, your proud of having "over a half thousend posts", ya looser, try 1000).

US Propaganda



3 oktober 1993.


18 US elite troops die in a total failure action in Mogadishu. The image that most US citizens remember from this is the one of a lynched US trooper witch body is teared in the dust of the streets. This image became THE icone of the Somalia debacle, witch lead to the redrawel of all US troops there.

31 march 2004. In Falluja,the capital of the resistance, 4 foreign (US) businessmen die in a rocket launched attack. Their carbonised bodies are town at cars and town in the dust of the streets, later on, they are hanged on a bridge. In proximity, laughing children. Those children make the "V" sign. This image can and mostly will be THE icone of the Iraqi debacle, with or withouth the retreat of US troops.
No public opinion stays "cold" when it sees such immages. They remember us the face of war, the face of barbary that each conflict wears. Those situatians are no exeptions in a conflict.

In wars, every day people die a terrible dead, hit by a grenade, traped on a landmine or blown to peaces with a dum dum bullet. In war, every day dead corpses are dehumanised from the fighting opponents. Not only in the Middle East or Africa but also in Chechya, were Russian soldiers cut of the ears of there victims and were them around there neck. The thing that makes those images special is that we can see them. They remind us above all that often, we don't see how war really is.

Men can only hope that the nations that occupy Iraq now, especcially the US and the UK, traw their conclusions about the strategy and like we saw, about the madness to wich has led there behaviour in Iraq untill this far.

Imagebuilding will become very important. Just as like today, most US citizens remember the Somali drama only from the Hollywood blockbuster "Blackhawk Down". This movie was announced in the US as a " clear recognition of heroisisme and loyalty of the US soldier". Not only the real images were banned out of the collective memory, but also the reality of Somalia 1993 was banned. Only few still remember now that a US commando squad bombed 3 months before the debacle a villa to the ground in wich, on that moment all intelectual and spiritual leaders of Mogadishu gathered (in the movie, they where "looking for Aideed").
54 People did not survive this attack. The massacre took place on monday 12 july 1993, a day that is called now by the Somallies "Bloody Monday".

Iraq also knew some Bloody Days. This time a year ago, the "coallition" attacks on Bagdad and its surroundings were at their heaviest. Innocent civilians also burned alive in this. There carbonised bodies also lied un the streets unhumanised. Only we, in the West did not see those images. We only saw the "collateral damage" that was pointed out for us by the Pentagon strategists on satelite images. The Iraqisthemselves did see those images. On broadcasts like Al-Jazeera, or just in their garden, they saw US soldiers that were smoking, very relaxed, a sigarete in front of the remains of dead Iraqi civilians. They saw how those GI's made the "V" sign and laught. Those soldiers thought they were liberating Iraq, but they were wrong.

Imagebuilding in times of war can be as deadly as a weapon. That was proven 2 days ago.


So Salishe, please open you eyes. And please, don't use the word "neutral" again in your posts. It is a disgrace for the word.
I know a lot of US citizens that are neural, you are not one of them. When you are neutral, Goebels and Beria were neutral to. You must be blind to not see the wrong in the world and still propapaganda your double standard.

Above is a post, a neutral one. (not for you of course, you will see the centrist like I am as exterme right or left, don't have illusions on your poor capabilities).

I'm sorry...I must have missed the scenes of US troops mutilating Iraqi bodies?...oh..and I must have missed the scene of US troops preventing nurses from reaching the bodies of their citizens...open my eyes?..buddy you're one for the books..somehow I knew you'd be one of those apologists..I wonder why..mebbe it's because you sympathize with men who'd deliberately watch as men burn alive then mutilate their bodies, hang them from a bridge while they dance around it...instead of with men who were there to help rebuild a country left in the grip of a sadistic madman....and as far as our bombing patterns goes....our boys were a helluva lot more precise then you'd ever know...we went after specific targets..palaces....military compounds..Gods man...I've known a few sadistic people in my time...but for someone like you to rationalize the wanton behavior of evil men and try to turn it around and say we got what was coming is just...well frankly I'm at a further loss for words

I was just watching the News, and these contractors are basically mercenaries. I'm less and less sympathetic.

Basically we have mercernaries driving in SUVs through contentious areas; while it's a shame they were killed, and it's truly obscene what was done to them, they weren't innocent civilians in the way a lot of people made them out to be. They had flak jackets, rifles, military equipment and the works.

I was just watching the News, and these contractors are basically mercenaries. I'm less and less sympathetic.

Basically we have mercernaries driving in SUVs through contentious areas; while it's a shame they were killed, and it's truly obscene what was done to them, they weren't innocent civilians in the way a lot of people made them out to be. They had flak jackets, rifles, military equipment and the works.

They were security experts hired to safeguard civilian interests..and hence since they were not military..that makes then civilians. I don't care if they were military or former military...that shouldn't make you less sympathetic?

I'm sorry...I must have missed the scenes of US troops mutilating Iraqi bodies?...oh..and I must have missed the scene of US troops preventing nurses from reaching the bodies of their citizens...open my eyes?..buddy you're one for the books..somehow I knew you'd be one of those apologists..I wonder why..mebbe it's because you sympathize with men who'd deliberately watch as men burn alive then mutilate their bodies, hang them from a bridge while they dance around it...instead of with men who were there to help rebuild a country left in the grip of a sadistic madman....and as far as our bombing patterns goes....our boys were a helluva lot more precise then you'd ever know...we went after specific targets..palaces....military compounds..Gods man...I've known a few sadistic people in my time...but for someone like you to rationalize the wanton behavior of evil men and try to turn it around and say we got what was coming is just...well frankly I'm at a further loss for words

Salishe, letss agree that it is not my mistake that your intellectual standard does not reach the average world level. I tried with a neutral post that 99% of NS posters understands to point out your extremist minority of the US republicans (please don't say again that you aren't one, we all know you, Herr Goebels, and your so called "neutral" opinion=propaganda. Let me say you this, Mr. Stalin, you never have posted something as neutral about war like i did above. My opinion condems war, not states, but you are not capable to see it and to take lessons: burned US soldiers = Burned Iraqi civilians while US soldiers enjoy, are you blind?


. Your opinion is indeed not wurth to lose anybodies neutral calm. The world has indeed a small minority of fully stupid and ignorant people that struck emptyness.

I even wonder if you understand the post and the comparision, poor thing. :roll:

dp

[dp

DP

I was just watching the News, and these contractors are basically mercenaries. I'm less and less sympathetic.

Basically we have mercernaries driving in SUVs through contentious areas; while it's a shame they were killed, and it's truly obscene what was done to them, they weren't innocent civilians in the way a lot of people made them out to be. They had flak jackets, rifles, military equipment and the works.

They were security experts hired to safeguard civilian interests..and hence since they were not military..that makes then civilians. I don't care if they were military or former military...that shouldn't make you less sympathetic?

They were, for all intents and purposes, mercenaries. Bremer admitted as much. Moreover, they're being paid FAR more than US soldiers (apparently between 150 and 200 thousand a year) so they're clearly being well compensated for their risks. They were there basically to do the grunt work the military was unable to do; basic things like delivering food and the like. It still makes them part of the occupation force.

My qualm is with this griping and moaning about how horrible it is that a few americans were killed being where they had no business.

The iraqis owe us nothing, we are interlopers in their nation and if they choose to vent anger on the bodies of a few occupiers, we have no moral ground from which to criticize them.

And by the accounts i've read, the americans who died werent even members of the military, rather 'contractors,' on whom the war can be blamed to begin with.

That bush is the one who shoulders the blame for what happened in Fallujah.


That's right, what goes on in Iraq is none of our business, if a brutal dictator decides to torture, rape and murder millions of his own citizens then that's just too bad because it's none of our business. We ought to bury our heads in the sand and not bother looking at the outside world because as you so eloquently put it "it's none of our business". Personally I couldn't care less if my next door neighbour is a serial killer because it's none of my business.

Personally I find it disturbing that a person cannot condemn the murder and mutilation of US civilians, the fact that disagreeing with the invasion of Iraq is capable of intellectually and morally blinkering a person so absolutley is rather astounding in my mind.

Perhaps if these "interlopers" weren't trying to establish democracy, freedom, law and order, stability and prosperity in Iraq then your objections that their deaths were warranted as a result of some wrong that they had done might not be immediately dismissable on these grounds.

They were, for all intents and purposes, mercenaries. Bremer admitted as much. Moreover, they're being paid FAR more than US soldiers (apparently between 150 and 200 thousand a year) so they're clearly being well compensated for their risks. They were there basically to do the grunt work the military was unable to do; basic things like delivering food and the like. It still makes them part of the occupation force.

If you could post a link to Bremer*s remarks I will take a look. But as things stand now, my understanding is that they were security gaurds, not soldiers. (BTW, by your statement, the armored car gaurds for the bank are mercenaries...)

What a misserable poor thing Salishe is for not understanding the comparision between Somalia and US killed now. Is he that blind? I am not even speaking about a difficult word for the boy (in Dutch/French) "Methaphore") but like all the pM's that I had today from lots of US republicans, they "shame themselves to be comparised with marginals like Salishe".


I always knew that the real, informed US republicans were good debate partners, not like: ( 7 of you said it to me, and like promised, I don't tell your names), the "non informed and weak Salishe".


Well guys, I tried to post somehing about war. All persons understand it when i pointed out the dead muslims (civilians) that lied carbonised on the ground while the GI's where making jokes and showingh "V" signs.

I don' watch AJ but Salishe sure watches Goebels for not understanding what the world understand in my comparision.

But like said, in the old Jewish, Christian, Muslim thought,"even for stupid people and propagandaspeakers, there is a place in paradise".

Salishe, be welcome in that paradise.

(Hope you can put of your blindnes and in the end feel what neutrality is all about)

"Watch, don't be blind!"

Well, well....
Looking over Blackwater (http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/), I may stand corrected on my above post.

"Blackwater USA is comprised of five companies; Blackwater Training Center, Blackwater Target Systems, Blackwater Security Consulting, Blackwater Canine, and Blackwater Air (AWS). We have established a global presence and provide training and tactical solutions for the 21st century."
Our clients include federal law enforcement agencies, the Department of Defense, Department of State, and Department of Transportation, local and state entities from around the country, multi-national corporations, and friendly nations from all over the globe.
We customize and execute solutions for our clients to help keep them at the level of readiness required to meet today's law enforcement, homeland security, and defense challenges.
Any and all defense services supplied to foreign nationals will only be pursuant to proper authorization by the Department of State.
Come to Blackwater, where the professionals train."
Gary Jackson
President

Thanks Daistallia, I couldn't remember the name of that company. But yeah, I don't understand how you can consider them anything but mercenaries in this situation, plain and simple.

Mercenaries like the blackwater corporation are just one more way that the bush cartel shovels taxpayer money into the pockets of select individuals.

[quote=New Granada]My qualm is with this griping and moaning about how horrible it is that a few americans were killed being where they had no business.

The iraqis owe us nothing, we are interlopers in their nation and if they choose to vent anger on the bodies of a few occupiers, we have no moral ground from which to criticize them.

And by the accounts i've read, the americans who died werent even members of the military, rather 'contractors,' on whom the war can be blamed to begin with.

That bush is the one who shoulders the blame for what happened in Fallujah.


That's right, what goes on in Iraq is none of our business,
Stop right there. You are right. It was none of your business, but you made it your business. Why?

if a brutal dictator decides to torture, rape and murder millions of his own citizens then that's just too bad because it's none of our business.
No that is not why you made it your business, it was way down the list.

We ought to bury our heads in the sand
You mean drill for oil in those sands? This would make more sense for attacking Iraq.

Personally I find it disturbing that a person cannot condemn the murder and mutilation of US civilians,
I condemn that action but I also condemn the US for bombing the bejeebers out of Iraq, and in the process, killing many innocent men, women, and children. And for what?

Perhaps if these "interlopers" weren't trying to establish democracy, freedom, law and order, stability and prosperity
Did the Iraquis ask you to come and give them some democracy, freedom, law and order, stability and prosperity, or did your country violate international law, by attacking their country?

Why is America in Iraq?

Terrorists? Nope (supposed link to Al-Queda proves false)(19 of the terrorists from 9-11 were Saudis, NONE were from Iraq)
WMD? None (the US has them though)(UN weapons inspectors doing good job)
Nuclear capabilities? Of course not
Invitation by the UN? Nope (even some traditional US allies decided it was wise to stay home)
Faulty US intelligence? Big factor according to US administration

So America spent $85 Billion, and sent over 150,000 troops to vanquish a saddistic madman? (Even though Saddam has been captured, the Iraqui people still resist)

The brutal, saddistic pictures that I saw, confirms to me that there is a deep seated hatred for Americans by the Iraqui people, and that hatred is spreading to other Arab nations, which I believe, makes it an unsafer world for American citizens, both at home and abroad.

As horrified as most of the world was about the attack at the WTC, attacking Iraq just makes no sense.

Bring your troops home America. It is not worth it.

I will not even attempt to argue the point of America moving against Iraq. There are those of you that will contend that there is no argument that will support that action, others will blame George Bush regardless, and still others will just be happy to take a shot at the U.S.

What is disturbing is the reaction to the killing and mutilation of these men. Mutilation is nothing new in Iraq, it has been going on for a long time before the U.S. invaded. It is still going on and by the same people, those who supported and benefited from Sadaam's rule. They enjoyed the power they had under Sadaam to kill, torture and mutilate. The last thing they want to see is stabilization in Iraq by any government that will not allow them to return to their old ways. That includes a government made up of Iraqis. So they work to fan the fires of hatred among the people in any way they can in order to keep the country in chaos. As long as chaos reigns in an area they are free to kill. They do not kill to free the people, they kill because they like to hate. They offer nothing. They do not have a new government to offer to the people. They have no plans to put into place if they can force the 'invaders' out. That is not important, what is important is to keep the people from returning to any form of normalicy.

I have read posts here that say the people killed were no more than mercenaries. So mercenaries are not people, they do not deserve dignity even in death. They got what they deserved in affect. Americans have no business being in Iraq, what happens to them is their own fault, they asked for it. Sad.

Wait a second, now no one is going to say what they did was right, or even bad, it was a horrendous and disgusting act. those responsible deserve the strictest possible punishment.

But your proposing the complete destruction of the Sunni triangle? They hit you so your hitting back with a bigger stick? Doesn't that make you worse? Why would you sink down to the level of these creatures, do you think everyone in the Triangle is like these monsters? Becuase I can assure you the people who did it think all Americans are the same, and deserve the same punishment.

Perhaps before dishing out your idea of justice, you should look in the mirror, you may be disturbed by what looks back.I agree completely. You want to turn America/Iraq into Israel/Palestine Salishe? I don't believe in the death penalty even for your own crimes, so I find the view that it should be dished out in the thousands for somebody elses crimes... exceptionally disturbing.


You are beyond help.

This thread is a case study in how sick, perverted, and indeed far left this board is.


Yeah, go ahead, keep defending them. I'm sure you'll convince yourselves you're right either way.

The thing that really strikes me is that most of the outrage seems to be on the treatment of the bodies. Surely this is less important than their actual deaths? Why is it somehow so much worse when the bodies are ill-treated? I don't get it, really.

Hey Salishe, must be hard to read a real neutral post that does not support any of both sides but explains you the truth. :twisted:

A very special to Salishe with his double standards .Wobber is welcome to for learning something.



IMAGE BUILDING:

3 oktober 1993.


18 US elite troops die in a total failure action in Mogadishu. The image that most US citizens remember from this is the one of a lynched US trooper witch body is trown in the dust of the streets. This image became THE icone of the Somalia debacle, witch lead to the redrawel of all US troops there.

31 march 2004. In Falluja,the capital of the resistance, 4 foreign (US) businessmen die in a rocket launched attack. Their carbonised bodies are town at cars in the dust of the streets, later on, they are hanged on a bridge. In proximity, laughing children. Those children make the "V" sign. This image can and mostly will be THE icone of the Iraqi debacle, with or withouth the retreat of US troops.
No public opinion stays "cold" when it sees such immages. They remember us the face of war, the face of barbary that each conflict wears. Those situations are no exeptions in a conflict.

In wars, every day people die a terrible dead, hit by a grenade, traped on a landmine or blown to peaces with a dum dum bullet. In war, every day dead corpses are dehumanised by the fighting opponents. Not only in the Middle East or Africa but also in Chechnya, were Russian soldiers cut of the ears of their victims and were them around their neck. The thing that makes those images special is that we can see them. They remind us above all that often, we don't see how war really is.

Men can only hope that the nations that occupy Iraq now, especcially the US and the UK, take their conclusions about the stategy and like we saw, about the madness to wich has led their behaviour in Iraq.

Imagebuilding will become very important. Just as like today, most US citizens remember the Somali drama only from the Hollywood blockbuster "Blackhawk Down". This movie was announced in the US as a " clear recognition of heroisisme and loyalty of the US soldier". Not only the real images were banned out of the collective memory, but also the reality of Somalia 1993 was banned. Only few still remember now that a US commando squad bombed 3 months before the debacle a villa to the ground in wich, on that moment all intellectual and spiritual leaders of Mogadishu gathered (in the movie, they where "looking for Aideed". In real, it was a failure, they hit other people)
54 People did not survive this attack. The massacre took place on monday 12 july 1993, a day that is called now by the Somallies "Bloody Monday".

Iraq also knew some Bloody Days. This time a year ago, the "coallition" attacks on Bagdad and its surroundings were at their heaviest. Innocent civilians also burned alive in this. There carbonised bodies also lied un the streets unhumanised. Only we, in the West did not see those images. We only saw the "collateral damage" that was pointed out for us by the Pentagon strategists on satelite images. The Iraqis themselves did see those images. On broadcasts like Al-Jazeera, or just in their garden, they saw US soldiers that were smoking, very relaxed, a sigarete in front of the remains of dead Iraqi civilians. They saw how those GI's made the "V" sign, made jokes and laught. Those soldiers thought they were liberating Iraq, but they were wrong/mistake.

Imagebuilding in times of war can be as deadly as a weapon. That was proven 2 days ago.


So Salishe, please open you eyes. And please, don't use the word "neutral" again in your posts. It is a disgrace for the word itself.

I know a lot of US citizens that are neural, you are not one of them. When you are neutral, Goebels and Beria were neutral to. You must be blind to not see the wrong in the world and still propapaganda your double standard.

Above is a post, a neutral one. (not for you of course, you will see the centrist like I am as exterme right or left, I don't have illusions on your poor capabilities).

In facty, the 4 death in Fallluja worked for Blackwater USA, a "private millitary company" with the sinister reputation for hiring mercanaries for use in Iraq that were officers in Chillis Pinochet regime.

In Iraq, they are (also) responsable for Paul Bremers security. Bremer himself told that the occupation forces will react hard against the resistance (so read against "the civilians", once again :roll: ).

Well Salishe, hope you read some of the former posts that explained it well withouth loosing neutrality. You really must be a louse in Rumsfelds smelling Halliburton-underwear for writting that propaganda nonsense.

Ever tried a neutral view?
Remember the singing GI's in front of the dead Iraqi civilians. BTW, they made the "V" sign while the children were crying for their dead familymembers. But yes, that is censured by FOX (but not in the free world :wink: ).

I think the sick part is that the US is planning to behave just like the nazis when they occupied towns.

CNN reported that the military was going to try and identify people from the videos, so that they could "talk" to them.

A policy of "overwhelming retaliation" like that planned by the viceregency in iraq is eerily similar to the reprisal attacks carried out by the germans in ww2.

I think the sick part is that the US is planning to behave just like the nazis when they occupied towns.

CNN reported that the military was going to try and identify people from the videos, so that they could "talk" to them.

A policy of "overwhelming retaliation" like that planned by the viceregency in iraq is eerily similar to the reprisal attacks carried out by the germans in ww2.

I think the sick part is that the US is planning to behave just like the nazis when they occupied towns.

CNN reported that the military was going to try and identify people from the videos, so that they could "talk" to them.

A policy of "overwhelming retaliation" like that planned by the viceregency in iraq is eerily similar to the reprisal attacks carried out by the germans in ww2.

Nazis hmmm Nazis :roll:

Yea right whatever.

The US is simply going to march in mow people down just like the nazis :roll:

-Turns on the TV-

Look New Granada! Teletubbies!

Thanks Daistallia, I couldn't remember the name of that company. But yeah, I don't understand how you can consider them anything but mercenaries in this situation, plain and simple.

The NYT article said security gaurds, most other sources have been vauge or said civilians.
GlobalSecurity.org (http://globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040401-iraq-hawks.htm) has a good article from the Boston Herald on this situation.

Graustarker: They have been portrayed in the media as civilians. They were not. That doesn't mean they desrved what happened. But they certainly weren't innocent civilians as has been portrayed.

I knew..I just knew I was going to have apologists for what happened..as sure as the sun rises I knew...I don't care what their beefs are..I don't care..there is no way you can possibly say that my boys wouldn't be justified in hunting down these vermin....there is no way you can justify this action...none.

Salishe, I don't think that any of us are "apologists" I'm certainly not.. two points though..

1) The USA had no business going into Iraq in the first place (we ALL know that now)

2) I think it's horrible what happened. However, really, once you're dead.. do you really care what happens to your body? I mean they were dead. Sure it's sickening.. hard to fathom.. but they didn't suffer any more by what the crowd did to them. Let's be honest. It was just dead burnt flesh.. It didn't make their deaths worse.. it was just hard to watch for you.. and me and others.. but the people who actually died, didn't suffer or even know what happened to them obviously after their death.

2) I think it's horrible what happened. However, really, once you're dead.. do you really care what happens to your body? I mean they were dead. Sure it's sickening.. hard to fathom.. but they didn't suffer any more by what the crowd did to them. Let's be honest. It was just dead burnt flesh.. It didn't make their deaths worse.. it was just hard to watch for you.. and me and others.. but the people who actually died, didn't suffer or even know what happened to them obviously after their death.

Sorry, but these guys may have still been alive when set on fire.

According to The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/01/international/middleeast/01IRAQ.html?ei=5062&en=fe0864f812d776f1&ex=1081400400&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=):
Some witnesses said the Americans were still alive when one boy came running up with a jug of gasoline. Soon, both vehicles were fireballs.

What people appear to be missing here is whether the men were armed or not they were civilians. They were not members of the armed forces so what ever else they were they were civilians. That point is not open to discussion it is defines in the Geneva Convention (Not that the US pays much attention to that).

Secondly what happened to the bodies is relevant and important, it goes beyond warfare. To kill someone in a way that damages their bodies is one thing (e.g. with a flame thrower etc). To set out to mutilate a corpse is another.

Do those who take part in this sort of barbarism deserve punishment? Yes. Even under the laws of the land they live in. If the perpetrators were civilians then it is murder, the sentence for which in Iraq was death. If they consider themselves combatants then it is a war crime.

Forget why the US is there. That will never justify this type of behaviour. And yes who ever does this sort of thing is sub human.

There are no excuses, but we should measure the US by how it responds. Assist in the investigation and bring those guilty to trial.

2) I think it's horrible what happened. However, really, once you're dead.. do you really care what happens to your body? I mean they were dead. Sure it's sickening.. hard to fathom.. but they didn't suffer any more by what the crowd did to them. Let's be honest. It was just dead burnt flesh.. It didn't make their deaths worse.. it was just hard to watch for you.. and me and others.. but the people who actually died, didn't suffer or even know what happened to them obviously after their death.

Sorry, but these guys may have still been alive when set on fire.

According to The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/01/international/middleeast/01IRAQ.html?ei=5062&en=fe0864f812d776f1&ex=1081400400&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=):
Some witnesses said the Americans were still alive when one boy came running up with a jug of gasoline. Soon, both vehicles were fireballs.

I thought they had all been shot first.. it was my understanding that the car was fired at by rapid gunfire before the fire ever started. Well, that would make it different though, if they were still alive.. OMG!, but honestly.. I don't believe they were. It is my understanding that the gun fire killed them even before the fire. Doesn't make it right nor just by no means.. I'm just saying if they were already dead.. yes, it was a barbaric thing for these people to do. I'm not exusing that by no means.. I'm just saying once they were dead.. they didn't suffer any more. What is done to a dead body after death even in our culture in labs is just as horrific if you have a weak stomach.

After the fires cooled, a group of boys tore the corpses out of the vehicles. The crowd cheered them on. The boys dragged the blackened bodies to the iron bridge over the Euphrates River, about a mile away. Some people said they saw four bodies hanging over the water, some said only two. At sunset, nurses from a nearby hospital tried to take the bodies away.

What people appear to be missing here is whether the men were armed or not they were civilians. They were not members of the armed forces so what ever else they were they were civilians. That point is not open to discussion it is defines in the Geneva Convention (Not that the US pays much attention to that).

Here are links to two of the many conventions on the "laws of warfare" (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/auoy.htm):
the Convention of the OAU for the Elimination of Mercenarism in Africa, Libreville, 3rd July 1977 (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1977e.htm) and the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, 4 December 1989[url]

According to [url=http://webpages.charter.net/gipg/genevaconventions/intro.html]this summary (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1989a.htm):
The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Having looked at the definitions under those, and from what I can tell, they may or may not have been mercenaries, as defined by the treaties. (Yes I know that may contradict my statements above. The company does appear to be a mercenary organization in the sense of Sandline or Executive Outcomes. But that does not mean these men were employed as active combatants. Then again, they were armed.)

However I'm not an international law specialist.

Secondly what happened to the bodies is relevant and important, it goes beyond warfare. To kill someone in a way that damages their bodies is one thing (e.g. with a flame thrower etc). To set out to mutilate a corpse is another.

Do those who take part in this sort of barbarism deserve punishment? Yes. Even under the laws of the land they live in. If the perpetrators were civilians then it is murder, the sentence for which in Iraq was death. If they consider themselves combatants then it is a war crime.

Forget why the US is there. That will never justify this type of behaviour. And yes who ever does this sort of thing is sub human.

There are no excuses, but we should measure the US by how it responds. Assist in the investigation and bring those guilty to trial.

All this would depend on the lawyers.

I thought they had all been shot first.. it was my understanding that the car was fired at by rapid gunfire before the fire ever started. Well, that would make it different though, if they were still alive.. OMG!, but honestly.. I don't believe they were. It is my understanding that the gun fire killed them even before the fire. Doesn't make it right nor just by no means.. I'm just saying if they were already dead.. yes, it was a barbaric thing for these people to do. I'm not exusing that by no means.. I'm just saying once they were dead.. they didn't suffer any more. What is done to a dead body after death even in our culture in labs is just as horrific if you have a weak stomach.


Check the threads linked above. Arguably it is possibly a war crime...

I think it is absolute horrendous and unacceptable behaviour. But it fully reflects the larger problem: Iraqis are not prepared to accept Americans. Why? Maybe they think Americans are imperialists, bent on exploiting the people of Iraq. For these things to stop happening, America must convince the Iraqis they are there to help them, genuine or not. This cannot, unfortunately, be accomplished by force. Something else must be done to quell the Iraqis.

I think it is absolute horrendous and unacceptable behaviour. But it fully reflects the larger problem: Iraqis are not prepared to accept Americans. Why? Maybe they think Americans are imperialists, bent on exploiting the people of Iraq. For these things to stop happening, America must convince the Iraqis they are there to help them, genuine or not. This cannot, unfortunately, be accomplished by force. Something else must be done to quell the Iraqis.

Yes! Exactly. The clearest post I have seen on Iraq in a long time.

What people appear to be missing here is whether the men were armed or not they were civilians. They were not members of the armed forces so what ever else they were they were civilians. That point is not open to discussion it is defines in the Geneva Convention (Not that the US pays much attention to that).

Here are links to two of the many conventions on the "laws of warfare" (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/auoy.htm):
the Convention of the OAU for the Elimination of Mercenarism in Africa, Libreville, 3rd July 1977 (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1977e.htm) and the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, 4 December 1989[url]

According to [url=http://webpages.charter.net/gipg/genevaconventions/intro.html]this summary (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1989a.htm):
The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Having looked at the definitions under those, and from what I can tell, they may or may not have been mercenaries, as defined by the treaties. (Yes I know that may contradict my statements above. The company does appear to be a mercenary organization in the sense of Sandline or Executive Outcomes. But that does not mean these men were employed as active combatants. Then again, they were armed.)

However I'm not an international law specialist.

Secondly what happened to the bodies is relevant and important, it goes beyond warfare. To kill someone in a way that damages their bodies is one thing (e.g. with a flame thrower etc). To set out to mutilate a corpse is another.

Do those who take part in this sort of barbarism deserve punishment? Yes. Even under the laws of the land they live in. If the perpetrators were civilians then it is murder, the sentence for which in Iraq was death. If they consider themselves combatants then it is a war crime.

Forget why the US is there. That will never justify this type of behaviour. And yes who ever does this sort of thing is sub human.

There are no excuses, but we should measure the US by how it responds. Assist in the investigation and bring those guilty to trial.

All this would depend on the lawyers.

The bottom line, (this barbaric attack aside) is that the USA broke international law by invading Iraq in the first place. They also broke it by deposing Saddam as well. They had no legal ground to invade Iraq. That is the truth. The Americans have not been following International law.. so, I don't think people should be so shocked that no one else is. I'm sure the more educated Iraqi's know that they were invaded illegally under international law.. this maybe why they feel it's a free for all. The Americans should of waited for the green light legally.. but they didn't and they couldn't because they never made a good enough case by international standards. Besides.. the war in Iraq .. wtf? Meanwhile they just let Al Qaeda grow and grow.. all the resources they wasted on Iraq, they could have used to find the people who actually attacked them and the real enemy.. bin Laden and his crew.. and Al Qaeda.. Iraq had so nothing to do with it. We all know that now.

I think it is absolute horrendous and unacceptable behaviour. But it fully reflects the larger problem: Iraqis are not prepared to accept Americans. Why? Maybe they think Americans are imperialists, bent on exploiting the people of Iraq. For these things to stop happening, America must convince the Iraqis they are there to help them, genuine or not. This cannot, unfortunately, be accomplished by force. Something else must be done to quell the Iraqis.

Yes! Exactly. The clearest post I have seen on Iraq in a long time.

*does a little bow* Thank you. :oops: :P

Silly MW...you're droning on bout how stupid or uninformed you believe me to be is starting to sound like the bleating of sheep...just as annoying but at least the sheep doesn't realize they're being annoying. You on the other hand know you're being annoying...constantly pushing my buttons. Yes I'm an emotional, violent-prone person...call me old-fashioned but I happen to believe that the mutilation and burning of bodies can not be compared to a bombing campaign whose intent was to destroy military targets and sub-targets in Iraq and a mission in Somalia where we initially tried to feed people, oh the horror...and then we had a hope, that perhaps it'd be easier to feed the people if the Warlords lead by Aidid didn't steal the food from UN Warehouses and sell it on the open market.

You're not a soldier..as far as I know you've never been exposed to combat so you're opinion of military operations and your analysis of what truly goes on during combat is flawed...or perhaps more precise your opinion means exactly squat...

You're not a soldier..as far as I know you've never been exposed to combat so you're opinion of military operations and your analysis of what truly goes on during combat is flawed...or perhaps more precise your opinion means exactly squat...

I'm not a soldier, neither is the majority of this Forum. Our opinions mean far more than 'squat'. Yeah we may not have been in the military, but it does not mean we cannot comment on it.

You're not a soldier..as far as I know you've never been exposed to combat so you're opinion of military operations and your analysis of what truly goes on during combat is flawed...or perhaps more precise your opinion means exactly squat...

I'm not a soldier, neither is the majority of this Forum. Our opinions mean far more than 'squat'. Yeah we may not have been in the military, but it does not mean we cannot comment on it.

Didn't say you couldn't comment on it..but Silly's analysis of what went down in Somalia and Iraq is seriously flawed..he's stated a military analysis based on no previous experience..it'd be like me, a former military servicemember talking bout the peace movement..I would have no practical experience with it and such if I gave analysis of it and called it true then it would be flawed yes?

What people appear to be missing here is whether the men were armed or not they were civilians. They were not members of the armed forces so what ever else they were they were civilians. That point is not open to discussion it is defines in the Geneva Convention (Not that the US pays much attention to that).

Here are links to two of the many conventions on the "laws of warfare" (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/auoy.htm):
the Convention of the OAU for the Elimination of Mercenarism in Africa, Libreville, 3rd July 1977 (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1977e.htm) and the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, 4 December 1989[url]

According to [url=http://webpages.charter.net/gipg/genevaconventions/intro.html]this summary (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1989a.htm):
The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Having looked at the definitions under those, and from what I can tell, they may or may not have been mercenaries, as defined by the treaties. (Yes I know that may contradict my statements above. The company does appear to be a mercenary organization in the sense of Sandline or Executive Outcomes. But that does not mean these men were employed as active combatants. Then again, they were armed.)

However I'm not an international law specialist.

Secondly what happened to the bodies is relevant and important, it goes beyond warfare. To kill someone in a way that damages their bodies is one thing (e.g. with a flame thrower etc). To set out to mutilate a corpse is another.

Do those who take part in this sort of barbarism deserve punishment? Yes. Even under the laws of the land they live in. If the perpetrators were civilians then it is murder, the sentence for which in Iraq was death. If they consider themselves combatants then it is a war crime.

Forget why the US is there. That will never justify this type of behaviour. And yes who ever does this sort of thing is sub human.

There are no excuses, but we should measure the US by how it responds. Assist in the investigation and bring those guilty to trial.

All this would depend on the lawyers.

The bottom line, (this barbaric attack aside) is that the USA broke international law by invading Iraq in the first place. They also broke it by deposing Saddam as well. They had no legal ground to invade Iraq. That is the truth. The Americans have not been following International law.. so, I don't think people should be so shocked that no one else is. I'm sure the more educated Iraqi's know that they were invaded illegally under international law.. this maybe why they feel it's a free for all. The Americans should of waited for the green light legally.. but they didn't and they couldn't because they never made a good enough case by international standards. Besides.. the war in Iraq .. wtf? Meanwhile they just let Al Qaeda grow and grow.. all the resources they wasted on Iraq, they could have used to find the people who actually attacked them and the real enemy.. bin Laden and his crew.. and Al Qaeda.. Iraq had so nothing to do with it. We all know that now.
So what you are saying is thatif you break the law then you can have no protection by the law. Fair enough as long as you accept that by speeding in your car or breaking into a house that allows other to kill and mutilate you. If that is your stand then fair enough. I would prefer to say to someone rise above it.

..it'd be like me, a former military servicemember talking bout the peace movement..I would have no practical experience with it and such if I gave analysis of it and called it true then it would be flawed yes?

Not at all. I have no pratical experiences of the moon, but I can still talk about it infomedly. Similarly if you were to research the peace movement, then you could give your analysis of it. Analysis is quite biased. You would give a vastly different analysis of themilitary to me, for example.

BTW: Customary w00ts and virtual beer all round for Utopio's 1000th post.

The bottom line, (this barbaric attack aside) is that the USA broke international law by invading Iraq in the first place. They also broke it by deposing Saddam as well. They had no legal ground to invade Iraq. That is the truth.

Sorry, but the legality of the war is still ambiguous. There remain strong arguments for it. (a good survey: http://www.robincmiller.com/ir-legal.htm)

The Americans have not been following International law.. so, I don't think people should be so shocked that no one else is. I'm sure the more educated Iraqi's know that they were invaded illegally under international law.. this maybe why they feel it's a free for all. The Americans should of waited for the green light legally.. but they didn't and they couldn't because they never made a good enough case by international standards.

Iraq has just as much a responsibility not to commit war crimes. Kirtondom's comment is exactly right here.

Besides.. the war in Iraq .. wtf? Meanwhile they just let Al Qaeda grow and grow.. all the resources they wasted on Iraq, they could have used to find the people who actually attacked them and the real enemy.. bin Laden and his crew.. and Al Qaeda.. Iraq had so nothing to do with it. We all know that now.

Again this is not necessarily clear.

(BTW, I do think this war was a very bad decision, but for very different reasons.)

..it'd be like me, a former military servicemember talking bout the peace movement..I would have no practical experience with it and such if I gave analysis of it and called it true then it would be flawed yes?

Not at all. I have no pratical experiences of the moon, but I can still talk about it infomedly. Similarly if you were to research the peace movement, then you could give your analysis of it.

Yes..an analysis that would be my opinion based on no practical experience..Silly MW seems to ignore the larger picture of Somalia, or Iraq.

You're right Salishe, an informed opinion cannot compare to an experienced opinion, however, while not even on the same order, they're both so far above an uninformed opinion that it hardly bares mention.

In any case, these murderers are not a representative sample.

Yes..an analysis that would be my opinion based on no practical experience..Silly MW seems to ignore the larger picture of Somalia, or Iraq.

Yes, but he is analysing it, ableit with a very anti-military spin o it. Similarly your analysing with a very pro-military mind, because of your military experience.

BTW: I think this is the first time I have ever used the word 'ableit'. Just so you know....

BTW: I think this is the first time I have ever used the word 'ableit'. Just so you know....

By any chance do you mean to say 'albeit'? :)

You're right Salishe, an informed opinion cannot compare to an experienced opinion.

Not really. In China there is a metaphor with the chess game:

The ones who are playing the game will be confused,
While the ones who are watching the game will see a clearer picture of the board.

For example, if you have experienced the Second World War you would probably be determined that Hitler was the sole cause. But if you read more and more about it, analysed it logically, you will find that Hitler was only ONE of the MANY causes of the war.

By any chance do you mean to say 'albeit'? :)

See! Can't even spell the bugger correctly. :oops:

These actions were terrible and disgusting.Reminds one of the KKK at their worst.

You're right Salishe, an informed opinion cannot compare to an experienced opinion.

Not really. In China there is a metaphor with the chess game:

The ones who are playing the game will be confused,
While the ones who are watching the game will see a clearer picture of the board.

For example, if you have experienced the Second World War you would probably be determined that Hitler was the sole cause. But if you read more and more about it, analysed it logically, you will find that Hitler was only ONE of the MANY causes of the war.

A highly successful fast food entrepeneur is highly unlikely to be able to contradict a professor of mathematics on mathematics and be right.

What if this professor had come down with Dementia? :D

What if this professor had come down with Dementia? :D

Still better than almost everyone else at mathematics despite being unable to name any family member born after 1945.

You're right Salishe, an informed opinion cannot compare to an experienced opinion.

Not really. In China there is a metaphor with the chess game:

The ones who are playing the game will be confused,
While the ones who are watching the game will see a clearer picture of the board.

For example, if you have experienced the Second World War you would probably be determined that Hitler was the sole cause. But if you read more and more about it, analysed it logically, you will find that Hitler was only ONE of the MANY causes of the war.

A highly successful fast food entrepeneur is highly unlikely to be able to contradict a professor of mathematics on mathematics and be right.
It is highly unlikly that a patent clerc would prove more than a match for the greatest physicists, but it is possible. Anything is possible so should not be discounted out of hand.

You're right Salishe, an informed opinion cannot compare to an experienced opinion.

Not really. In China there is a metaphor with the chess game:

The ones who are playing the game will be confused,
While the ones who are watching the game will see a clearer picture of the board.

For example, if you have experienced the Second World War you would probably be determined that Hitler was the sole cause. But if you read more and more about it, analysed it logically, you will find that Hitler was only ONE of the MANY causes of the war.

A highly successful fast food entrepeneur is highly unlikely to be able to contradict a professor of mathematics on mathematics and be right.
It is highly unlikly that a patent clerc would prove more than a match for the greatest physicists, but it is possible. Anything is possible so should not be discounted out of hand.

Never said it was impossible. Also, the patent clerk has an informed, but not experienced opinion. The patent clerk would thus be better off to argue with the physicist on physics than would the fish n'chip shop lady down the road, but still in the overwhelming majority of cases no match at all for the physicist.

..it'd be like me, a former military servicemember talking bout the peace movement..I would have no practical experience with it and such if I gave analysis of it and called it true then it would be flawed yes?

Not at all. I have no pratical experiences of the moon, but I can still talk about it infomedly. Similarly if you were to research the peace movement, then you could give your analysis of it.

Yes..an analysis that would be my opinion based on no practical experience..Silly MW seems to ignore the larger picture of Somalia, or Iraq.

Please, enleighten the class where I ignore the general picture. You show us, again, that you don't get it by not seeing the parallels between the two sides (the GI's that made the "V" sign in front of dead civilians and were happy about it, aso.) You all deliberatly ignore that. Typical double standard.

BTW , I eat US soldiers for breakfast, unless they are my clients for following mountaineering traingings or for climbing a summet for wich they need us. So by your ridiculous standard this gives me the right to have a detailed opinion about it.
Still following your standard, you can not speak about it since you were never in Somalia neither Iraq. The typical armchair soldier.

..it'd be like me, a former military servicemember talking bout the peace movement..I would have no practical experience with it and such if I gave analysis of it and called it true then it would be flawed yes?

Not at all. I have no pratical experiences of the moon, but I can still talk about it infomedly. Similarly if you were to research the peace movement, then you could give your analysis of it.

Yes..an analysis that would be my opinion based on no practical experience..Silly MW seems to ignore the larger picture of Somalia, or Iraq.

Please, enleighten the class where I ignore the general picture. You show us, again, that you don't get it by not seeing the parallels between the two sides (the GI's that made the "V" sign in front of dead civilians and were happy about it, aso.) You all deliberatly ignore that. Typical double standard.

BTW , I eat US soldiers for breakfast, unless they are my clients for following mountaineering traingings or for climbing a summet for wich they need us. So by your ridiculous standard this gives me the right to have a detailed opinion about it.
Still following your standard, you can not speak about it since you were never in Somalia neither Iraq. The typical armchair soldier.

I'm sorry..you're above me enlightening you Silly....that anti-America propaganda cap you're wearing just won't let in any information that goes against your version of the truth. And no..I wouldn't go up against your moutaineering skills..although we Cheroke do live in the Great Smoky moutainst..so we are not unused to finding a trail or two on a cliff face. No..never in Somalia..had troops of mine that were...as for Iraq..I was there for the First Gulf War...and I'll stack my 20+ years of military experience above yours anyday of the week Sir.

Ah, yes, commit genocide because people got killed in an occupied country. Al-Qaeda would love that.
Think a bit: Al Qaeda wasn't present before the war, now it is. Terrorism doesn't happen unless there is a fertile soil for it...
Now...I wan't to take you an fantastic, incredible flight of fancy which may strain your brain: "Americans are not generally well liked, which is why this happens, committing genocide won't help"...
*End incredible fantasy*

[quote=New Granada]My qualm is with this griping and moaning about how horrible it is that a few americans were killed being where they had no business.

The iraqis owe us nothing, we are interlopers in their nation and if they choose to vent anger on the bodies of a few occupiers, we have no moral ground from which to criticize them.

And by the accounts i've read, the americans who died werent even members of the military, rather 'contractors,' on whom the war can be blamed to begin with.

That bush is the one who shoulders the blame for what happened in Fallujah.


That's right, what goes on in Iraq is none of our business,
Stop right there. You are right. It was none of your business, but you made it your business. Why?

if a brutal dictator decides to torture, rape and murder millions of his own citizens then that's just too bad because it's none of our business.
No that is not why you made it your business, it was way down the list.

We ought to bury our heads in the sand
You mean drill for oil in those sands? This would make more sense for attacking Iraq.

Personally I find it disturbing that a person cannot condemn the murder and mutilation of US civilians,
I condemn that action but I also condemn the US for bombing the bejeebers out of Iraq, and in the process, killing many innocent men, women, and children. And for what?

Perhaps if these "interlopers" weren't trying to establish democracy, freedom, law and order, stability and prosperity
Did the Iraquis ask you to come and give them some democracy, freedom, law and order, stability and prosperity, or did your country violate international law, by attacking their country?

Why is America in Iraq?

Terrorists? Nope (supposed link to Al-Queda proves false)(19 of the terrorists from 9-11 were Saudis, NONE were from Iraq)
WMD? None (the US has them though)(UN weapons inspectors doing good job)
Nuclear capabilities? Of course not
Invitation by the UN? Nope (even some traditional US allies decided it was wise to stay home)
Faulty US intelligence? Big factor according to US administration

So America spent $85 Billion, and sent over 150,000 troops to vanquish a saddistic madman? (Even though Saddam has been captured, the Iraqui people still resist)

The brutal, saddistic pictures that I saw, confirms to me that there is a deep seated hatred for Americans by the Iraqui people, and that hatred is spreading to other Arab nations, which I believe, makes it an unsafer world for American citizens, both at home and abroad.

As horrified as most of the world was about the attack at the WTC, attacking Iraq just makes no sense.

Bring your troops home America. It is not worth it.

I'm not arguing that we should or should not have invaded Iraq, my point is that the argument that something that happens in another country is none of our business is a shit argument. It's selfish and ignorant and promotes a carefree attitude about the plight of others. This does not equate to saying that the invasion of Iraq was justified because of the humanitarian abuses there, but merely that the "none of our business argument" is one which I resent completely and utterly.

You notice that it is not merely US troops that are being targeted but also Iraqi civilians, like the bomb attacks that killed 182 people. It is also true that many of the terrorist engaging in these attacks are not from Iraq.

I dislike the argument that it was wrong to invade as Iraq as doing so would result in the deaths of thousands of civilians (something like 10,000 actually died in the invasion I believe). It pales in comparison with the 1 million Saddam killed over 20 years and the argument seems to ignore this.

The Iraqis didn't invite us???? What did you expect, some kind of mass petition, be serious. You use the word 'or' as though it is not possible to bring the things that I mentioned (freedom, democracy and so on) and violate international law. Personally I am not sure such a violation was committed, and I suspect that many people who use this argument have no such legal qualificaitons to decide either.

According to a recent BBC poll taken in Iraq, the majority of civilians actually support the current US occupation. I figure that despite their misgivings they realise that their presence is necessary to keep law and order and avoid a total bloodbath.

Lets be clear though - this is not just about Iraq, the whole of the Middle East are watching what's happening there. If the coalition and the UN can succeed in building a stable, prospering and INDEPENDENT democracy in Iraq within the next 5-10 years, then in my mind at least the war will have been worth it. Call it the West Berlin of the cold war if you will. Yet if we fail, it will be a disaster for relations between the West and the Middle East which will run in accordance with a rise in terrorist attacks that will be colossal.

Iraq has the potential to display the West as one with a culture and set of values compatible with the Arab world or as a hostile imperialist power acting for its own self interest. These are the consequences of success and failure respectively. Twelve months ago I thought we would succeed, now I am not so sure.

But either way withdrawal is not an option at this stage and you’d be a fool to think otherwise.

The irony about this thread is that so many people from Western states are so filled with hatred against America that they are ready to excuse and justify the abhorrent acts committed in Falluja, while Falluja's own Muslim population believes these acts to be a humiliation and an insult to Islamic faith.

From: www.bbc.co.uk

Falluja mutilations 'flout Islam'

Muslim leaders in the central Iraqi town of Falluja have condemned the mutilation of the bodies of four Americans killed in the town this week.
Their bodies were dismembered and put on display in the town, which has been the scene of clashes with US troops.

During Friday prayers the clerics told worshippers Islam prohibited such acts.

The warnings came as attacks continued in Iraq. Two more US soldiers and three Iraqi policemen have been killed in a 24-hour period.


Hacked to pieces

The four US contractors were ambushed and killed as they drove through Falluja on Wednesday.

The bodies were dragged from the wreckage of their cars and hacked to pieces. Two of them were hanged from a bridge.

At one Falluja mosque on Friday Sheikh Fawzi Nameq told hundreds of worshippers: "Islam does not condone the mutilation of the bodies of the dead."

He said such acts brought "humiliation to the faithful".

Another Falluja cleric, Sheikh Hamid Saleh called the mutilations "childish behaviour committed by ignorants who don't know the meaning of life and death".

Senior cleric Sheikh Khalid Ahmed said Prophet Muhammad had "prohibited even the mutilation of a dead, mad dog".

However correspondents in Falluja say there was no condemnation of the killings themselves.

More violence

The US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, for its part, has condemned the killings. The US has vowed to bring those responsible to justice.

Top US military spokesman Mark Kimmit said coalition forces would re-establish control of Falluja - but he said force could be avoided if town authorities arrested those who carried out the murders.

"If they were to deliver these people to the criminal justice system, we will come back in and start the rebuilding of Falluja. That is their choice," he said.

Meanwhile, the US military has announced the death of two more American soldiers serving in Iraq in the past 24 hours.

A soldier belonging to the Army's 1st Armoured Division was killed by a roadside bomb in the al-Mansour district of Baghdad early on Friday.

On Thursday a Marine was killed near Falluja.

At least 283 US soldiers have been killed in combat since President George W Bush declared major operations over in May.

In a separate incident on Thursday gunmen killed three Iraqi police officers in Baquba, north of Baghdad.

The attackers reportedly fired on two police cars guarding a road junction and threw a hand grenade at them.

Both Baquba and Falluja lie within the so-called Sunni triangle, a stronghold for insurgents fighting the US-led forces in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3594581.stm

Thanks for posting that dude! It's a relief to see Religious leaders speaking out. I know many Muslims and they are just as horrified as anybody else. Some even made the same quotes....

The US "news" agencies don't seem to have that. :roll:

I will start reading the BBC site to get my world reports! :wink:

You do realize that CanuckHeaven is 100% correct.

Think of it like this.. imagine any one having a conversation with George Bush...I'll have to wing it.. but here it goes..

George Bush - 1441, 1441, 1441 all those broken UN Resolutions!

Me- Umm, but no where in 1441 or any UN resolution did it say if Saddam didn't comply that the use of force was ok'd.

George Bush - Yeah, ok, but he's an evil dictator who gassed his own people.

Me - Yes, he used the weapons that the US and UK gave him, sure France and Germany sold him conventional weapons.. but you're the ones who gave him WMD. Not to mention Saddam hasn't gassed any one in over 10 years.. that's one hell of a delayed reaction don't you think?

George Bush - Umm yeah, I guess... but he had WMD, WMD, WMD!

Me- Now come on George, we all know that's not true. Which in fact by there being no WMD also proves he never failed to comply with resolution 1441 at all, now doesn't it?

George Bush - 9/11 9/11 9/11 we must fight the terrorists.

Me - There were no ties to Iraq and Al Qaeda, you knew that George. Saddam had no ties to terrorism. In fact Saddam was a secular leader and was hated by the fundemental Islamics. There is no ties between Iraq, Saddam and 9/11 and that you've always known.

George Bush - He was still an evil dictator and oppressed his people.

Me - But so are a lot of leaders. I don't see you going after them? Besides you were right in the middle of the war on terror, don't you think your plate was full enough without taking recources from the real fight to go after Saddam who had nothing to do with any attack upon America?

George Bush - Well, still, look at the good we are doing.. the Iraqi's love us and look at what we have forced Lybia into now because they're afraid of us!

Me- George, you had nothing to do with Lybia giving up there WMD, that was brokeraged by the UK.. and it started long before 9/11 and it was the sanctions imposed on Lybia after the hijacking out of Lockerbee that finally made Lybia cave in.

The Iraqi's don't love you. I watch the news.

George Bush - Ok, he tried to kill my daddy.. and I wanted to finish him off. I figured I could slip it past the American people as part of the war on terrorism.. and now I've created more terrorists by doing it.. but they've got oil too!

Me - That's better George, see how being honest feels so much better! ;)

Not sure of your figures womblingdon. 283 soldiers? I thought it was like 600.Ttoo many in any case.

Besides american and british servicemen, the resistance has killed loads of civilians, including my countrymen just trying to get the power grid working again for the benefit of the iraqis (not to mention their own countrymen). They were just thought to be americans. They weren't burned and mutilated, so you know nothing about their fate. If they were torched though, they might have made it to this forum. But i doubt even that. It seems the dead must be americans before it raises an eye-brow.

The only good thing in this whole incident is what the clerics in iraq are saying. Read especially the quotes from K. ahmed and H. Saleh before requesting a carpet bombing the whole sunni triangle to oblivion.

I feel so sorry for the families of the dead in this latest incident... but i have to agree with the one who said 'the corpses felt nothing'. So please don't take this as anti-american rant.
...
And what the hell is "soldier's death"?!? I thought torching soldiers to death with flame-throwers is an accepted way of war. (i've known to be wrong too)

Not sure of your figures womblingdon. 283 soldiers? I thought it was like 600.Ttoo many in any case.
These are not my figures. If anything, blame the BBC. I think your number includes the US casualties of the whole war, while the BBC figure only counts those who were killed under the declared end of the major hostilities.


Besides american and british servicemen, the resistance has killed loads of civilians, including my countrymen just trying to get the power grid working again for the benefit of the iraqis (not to mention their own countrymen). They were just thought to be americans.
I'd go further- they most likely weren't even thought to be Americans. They were just trying to get the power grid working- and that's why they were targeted. The "resistance" goal is to not allow any improvements in life of the ordinary Iraqis- otherwise they might realize that the US does want to help them, after all.

You do realize that CanuckHeaven is 100% correct.

Think of it like this.. imagine any one having a conversation with George Bush...I'll have to wing it.. but here it goes..

George Bush - 1441, 1441, 1441 all those broken UN Resolutions!

Me- Umm, but no where in 1441 or any UN resolution did it say if Saddam didn't comply that the use of force was ok'd.

George Bush - Yeah, ok, but he's an evil dictator who gassed his own people.

Me - Yes, he used the weapons that the US and UK gave him, sure France and Germany sold him conventional weapons.. but you're the ones who gave him WMD. Not to mention Saddam hasn't gassed any one in over 10 years.. that's one hell of a delayed reaction don't you think?

George Bush - Umm yeah, I guess... but he had WMD, WMD, WMD!

Me- Now come on George, we all know that's not true. Which in fact by there being no WMD also proves he never failed to comply with resolution 1441 at all, now doesn't it?

George Bush - 9/11 9/11 9/11 we must fight the terrorists.

Me - There were no ties to Iraq and Al Qaeda, you knew that George. Saddam had no ties to terrorism. In fact Saddam was a secular leader and was hated by the fundemental Islamics. There is no ties between Iraq, Saddam and 9/11 and that you've always known.

George Bush - He was still an evil dictator and oppressed his people.

Me - But so are a lot of leaders. I don't see you going after them? Besides you were right in the middle of the war on terror, don't you think your plate was full enough without taking recources from the real fight to go after Saddam who had nothing to do with any attack upon America?

George Bush - Well, still, look at the good we are doing.. the Iraqi's love us and look at what we have forced Lybia into now because they're afraid of us!

Me- George, you had nothing to do with Lybia giving up there WMD, that was brokeraged by the UK.. and it started long before 9/11 and it was the sanctions imposed on Lybia after the hijacking out of Lockerbee that finally made Lybia cave in.

The Iraqi's don't love you. I watch the news.

George Bush - Ok, he tried to kill my daddy.. and I wanted to finish him off. I figured I could slip it past the American people as part of the war on terrorism.. and now I've created more terrorists by doing it.. but they've got oil too!

Me - That's better George, see how being honest feels so much better! ;)

Please, Stephi.

Totally unbelievable.

We all know that the Shrub has never been that coherent. :lol:

As usual more Bush bashing and anti American nonsense. Not even worth arguing. Best just to post a short thought and forget about it.

Iraq will be free. Vast majority of Iraqi's want us there. The few pro Saddam and foreign terrorists that committed this crime will be found and hopefully killed.

The war was justified. Saddam is gone forever. Shiites and Kurds are free.

Sure womblingdon. Take a look at this site (dunno how to paste a link yet, sorry) http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
I don't know how reliable that site is, but i'm pretty sure the number of coalition soldiers killed after the war ended (sic!) soon exceeds the number killed in actual war (as defined by mr. Bush).

And yes, i share your belief that they aren't solely targeting US troops/personnel, any western target will do. Hell! Any target which gives them vicibility will do. After all, it's terrorism. As cruel it may sound... but given the response in this forum, it's the poor mans shock & awe and it's working.

The clerics did speak out against the mutilation but not against the killing.

Once again I will say that if you believe that only Americans are hated in the middle east you are mistaken. Americans, Canadians, Europeans and other westerners are all fair targets, especially since everyone will say "How terrible! They must have been mistaken for Americans". Meanwhile several things are accomplished, the foreigners have been killed, America will be blamed for the deaths by the people in those nations the victims originated from, and it will help influence non-American nations from supporting any actions, either peace keeping or humanitarian, in the area.

These terrorists/Ex-Sadaam hitmen do not want any order restored. That would reduce their ability to act as they always have, control through fear and violence.

Bottom line is that America and its allies in this endevor are there for the long haul. Like it or not, Iraq will be organized and a new government installed that will represent all the sects and peoples of Iraq.

As usual more Bush bashing and anti American nonsense. Not even worth arguing. Best just to post a short thought and forget about it.

Iraq will be free. Vast majority of Iraqi's want us there. The few pro Saddam and foreign terrorists that committed this crime will be found and hopefully killed.

The war was justified. Saddam is gone forever. Shiites and Kurds are free.

Exactly on what grounds was the war justified? Besides you thinking you have a right to do as you please? Give me a legal argument? Give me a terrorist argument? Give me an argument that puts this war any where in the scope of Al Qaeda and or bin Laden? You recall those guys? The ones that actually attacked you!

Let's see, Iran attacked my country.. let's go take out Russia.. because that's about how much sense it makes.

You do realize that CanuckHeaven is 100% correct.

Think of it like this.. imagine any one having a conversation with George Bush...I'll have to wing it.. but here it goes..

George Bush - 1441, 1441, 1441 all those broken UN Resolutions!

Me- Umm, but no where in 1441 or any UN resolution did it say if Saddam didn't comply that the use of force was ok'd.

George Bush - Yeah, ok, but he's an evil dictator who gassed his own people.

Me - Yes, he used the weapons that the US and UK gave him, sure France and Germany sold him conventional weapons.. but you're the ones who gave him WMD. Not to mention Saddam hasn't gassed any one in over 10 years.. that's one hell of a delayed reaction don't you think?

George Bush - Umm yeah, I guess... but he had WMD, WMD, WMD!

Me- Now come on George, we all know that's not true. Which in fact by there being no WMD also proves he never failed to comply with resolution 1441 at all, now doesn't it?

George Bush - 9/11 9/11 9/11 we must fight the terrorists.

Me - There were no ties to Iraq and Al Qaeda, you knew that George. Saddam had no ties to terrorism. In fact Saddam was a secular leader and was hated by the fundemental Islamics. There is no ties between Iraq, Saddam and 9/11 and that you've always known.

George Bush - He was still an evil dictator and oppressed his people.

Me - But so are a lot of leaders. I don't see you going after them? Besides you were right in the middle of the war on terror, don't you think your plate was full enough without taking recources from the real fight to go after Saddam who had nothing to do with any attack upon America?

George Bush - Well, still, look at the good we are doing.. the Iraqi's love us and look at what we have forced Lybia into now because they're afraid of us!

Me- George, you had nothing to do with Lybia giving up there WMD, that was brokeraged by the UK.. and it started long before 9/11 and it was the sanctions imposed on Lybia after the hijacking out of Lockerbee that finally made Lybia cave in.

The Iraqi's don't love you. I watch the news.

George Bush - Ok, he tried to kill my daddy.. and I wanted to finish him off. I figured I could slip it past the American people as part of the war on terrorism.. and now I've created more terrorists by doing it.. but they've got oil too!

Me - That's better George, see how being honest feels so much better! ;)
By George I think you've got it Stephistan!!! I think you have painted a very good picture of the truth!!! This endeavour to fight terrorism via Iraq is way off the tracks. It is too bad that others cannot see the con that is being perpetrated here!! :cry:

If the US was invaded and occupied, what would you do?

Let's see, Iran attacked my country.. let's go take out Russia.. because that's about how much sense it makes.

I am sure the former Eastern Block Countries and the Afghans would think it was a good idea!

:P

If the US was invaded and occupied, what would you do?

Sell you for cigerettes! :P

Iraq will be free.
Yes once their captors leave they wiil.

Vast majority of Iraqi's want us there.
Did they take a poll or are you just assuming?

The few pro Saddam and foreign terrorists that committed this crime will be found and hopefully killed.
How do you know that they are pro Saddam, they just might be anti-American?
Were there foreign terrorists involved?
What crime? US invaded their country and they got killed. Just because Bush declared "victory" May 6, 2003, doesn't mean the war is over, hence no crime.

The war was justified.
By what authority?

Saddam is gone forever.
Actually he is still in captivity and I am sure he will have an interesting story to tell, IF he stays alive before his trial.

Shiites and Kurds are free.
If they are "free", then why are they still shooting at US troops? Better question might be....if they are "free", why are US troops still shooting at them?

None of your post is based on any facts.

Did they take a poll or are you just assuming?

Are you not making assumptions as well?


How do you know that they are pro Saddam, they just might be anti-American?

Obviously it is a guess. However, a large chunk of the Fedayen(sp) Sadaam went missing. Odds are that a chunk of the fighters are them. Especially the attacks against the Iraqi civilians.


Were there foreign terrorists involved?

On the attack on the 4 guys? Anybodies guess. Does that matter?


What crime? US invaded their country and they got killed. Just because Bush declared "victory" May 6, 2003, doesn't mean the war is over, hence no crime.

Last I checked in the "civilized" world, mutilation of the dead and dragging them around like trophys are frowned on.

Even the Clerics of Fullujah(sp?) spoke out against it.

You think it was ok? :shock:


The war was justified.
By what authority?

Well it wasn't a war it was a police action or wait what is the term these days? :roll: :wink:


Saddam is gone forever.
Actually he is still in captivity and I am sure he will have an interesting story to tell, IF he stays alive before his trial.

I kind of think he means from running Iraq.

If you are implying the US will make him have an accident, I really doubt it. At this point and time, it would be just as policially damning as any information he could provide to show the war was illegal.


Shiites and Kurds are free.
If they are "free", then why are they still shooting at US troops? Better question might be....if they are "free", why are US troops still shooting at them?

We are shooting at the Kurds?

None of your post is based on any facts.

Some of what you said could be called opinions as well.

They *did* take a poll, the BBC specifically.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

And before someone talks about bias, the BBC was fiercly anti-war,

They *did* take a poll, the BBC specifically.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

And before someone talks about bias, the BBC was fiercly anti-war,

The tide has already begun to turn, or haven't you been paying attention?

They *did* take a poll, the BBC specifically.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

And before someone talks about bias, the BBC was fiercly anti-war,

I would direct your attention to the bit of that article that states:

"About 6,000 interviews were carried out in total, half in Autumn last year and half this Spring, in a project run by Oxford Research International. "

Opinions from six months ago are not terribly valid at this point, and the results aren't segregated by time period so I take them all with a huge chunk of salt. It also doesn;t say if the poll was taken from accross Iraq or just in safe parts of Basra, so I question the validity of the numbers anyway. You think anyone went door to door with a questionaire in Falluja?

And six months ago, some might still have been patient that the security problems (which were noted as a huge concern in "85% said the restoration of public security must be a major priority.") deserved a bit more time to be worked out. That opinion has probably changed by now...


"And 56% said that things were better now than they were before the war. "

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, and again I wonder what the current poll might say...

Hell, the US opinion of the war has dropped several percent over that period, and they have the luxury of distance. Might be a whole lot bigger a swing to the people actually living (and dying) through this occupation.

-Z-

Did they take a poll or are you just assuming?

Are you not making assumptions as well?


How do you know that they are pro Saddam, they just might be anti-American?

Obviously it is a guess. However, a large chunk of the Fedayen(sp) Sadaam went missing. Odds are that a chunk of the fighters are them. Especially the attacks against the Iraqi civilians.


Were there foreign terrorists involved?

On the attack on the 4 guys? Anybodies guess. Does that matter?


What crime? US invaded their country and they got killed. Just because Bush declared "victory" May 6, 2003, doesn't mean the war is over, hence no crime.

Last I checked in the "civilized" world, mutilation of the dead and dragging them around like trophys are frowned on.

Even the Clerics of Fullujah(sp?) spoke out against it.

You think it was ok? :shock:


The war was justified.
By what authority?

Well it wasn't a war it was a police action or wait what is the term these days? :roll: :wink:


Saddam is gone forever.
Actually he is still in captivity and I am sure he will have an interesting story to tell, IF he stays alive before his trial.

I kind of think he means from running Iraq.

If you are implying the US will make him have an accident, I really doubt it. At this point and time, it would be just as policially damning as any information he could provide to show the war was illegal.


Shiites and Kurds are free.
If they are "free", then why are they still shooting at US troops? Better question might be....if they are "free", why are US troops still shooting at them?

We are shooting at the Kurds?

None of your post is based on any facts.

Some of what you said could be called opinions as well.
Actually the questions were for Chesterjay, but thanks for your suggestions as to how Chester would have responded. I was asking direct questions and you just gave me your speculation.

As far as performing indignities to a human corpse, those actions are against the law in my country, but it is not punishable by death. I obviously do not condone such actions. As far as the deaths are concerned, that is what happens when people are at war with each other. The dead men were armed mercenaries and they ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Did they take a poll or are you just assuming?

Are you not making assumptions as well?


How do you know that they are pro Saddam, they just might be anti-American?

Obviously it is a guess. However, a large chunk of the Fedayen(sp) Sadaam went missing. Odds are that a chunk of the fighters are them. Especially the attacks against the Iraqi civilians.


Were there foreign terrorists involved?

On the attack on the 4 guys? Anybodies guess. Does that matter?


What crime? US invaded their country and they got killed. Just because Bush declared "victory" May 6, 2003, doesn't mean the war is over, hence no crime.

Last I checked in the "civilized" world, mutilation of the dead and dragging them around like trophys are frowned on.

Even the Clerics of Fullujah(sp?) spoke out against it.

You think it was ok? :shock:


The war was justified.
By what authority?

Well it wasn't a war it was a police action or wait what is the term these days? :roll: :wink:


Saddam is gone forever.
Actually he is still in captivity and I am sure he will have an interesting story to tell, IF he stays alive before his trial.

I kind of think he means from running Iraq.

If you are implying the US will make him have an accident, I really doubt it. At this point and time, it would be just as policially damning as any information he could provide to show the war was illegal.


Shiites and Kurds are free.
If they are "free", then why are they still shooting at US troops? Better question might be....if they are "free", why are US troops still shooting at them?

We are shooting at the Kurds?

None of your post is based on any facts.

Some of what you said could be called opinions as well.
Actually the questions were for Chesterjay, but thanks for your suggestions as to how Chester would have responded. I was asking direct questions and you just gave me your speculation.

As far as performing indignities to a human corpse, those actions are against the law in my country, but it is not punishable by death. I obviously do not condone such actions. As far as the deaths are concerned, that is what happens when people are at war with each other. The dead men were armed mercenaries and they ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sorry I was under the impression this was a public board. Silly me.

As to my speculation, can you even answer your questions?

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

In the US, the death penalty is an option. It is not mandetory. We can only speculate what will happen if they surrender or are captured. They said they caught a few BTW.

So time will tell. I will speculate that there will be no executions.

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

Yes, certainly uncalled for, no argument here. Just like when I watched American soldiers breach the Geneva Conventions and shoot a wounded civilian Iraqi (he didn't have any uniform either) while he was down and wounded, after they shot him to death, they yelled and cheered. It was on "CNN Presents" last week-end. The things that happen in war are quite sickening.. it happens on both sides a lot more then we think.. we only get to find out about it when it caught on film.

They *did* take a poll, the BBC specifically.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

And before someone talks about bias, the BBC was fiercly anti-war,

I would direct your attention to the bit of that article that states:

"About 6,000 interviews were carried out in total, half in Autumn last year and half this Spring, in a project run by Oxford Research International. "

Opinions from six months ago are not terribly valid at this point, and the results aren't segregated by time period so I take them all with a huge chunk of salt. It also doesn;t say if the poll was taken from accross Iraq or just in safe parts of Basra, so I question the validity of the numbers anyway. You think anyone went door to door with a questionaire in Falluja?

And six months ago, some might still have been patient that the security problems (which were noted as a huge concern in "85% said the restoration of public security must be a major priority.") deserved a bit more time to be worked out. That opinion has probably changed by now...


"And 56% said that things were better now than they were before the war. "

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, and again I wonder what the current poll might say...

Hell, the US opinion of the war has dropped several percent over that period, and they have the luxury of distance. Might be a whole lot bigger a swing to the people actually living (and dying) through this occupation.

-Z-

There were two different polls - one of the Oxford and one BBC one. The specific BBC results can be found in a link under the first graph entitled "Compraed to a year ago, how are things overall in your life?", Thats where much of the numbers and information cited in the article comes from.

They *did* take a poll, the BBC specifically.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

And before someone talks about bias, the BBC was fiercly anti-war,
Umm thanks for the poll results. Further down on the page, I found this quite interesting!!

A key concern for the Americans as they prepare to hand over power in June is the unpopularity of the people they are putting in place.

Their favoured son Ahmed Chalabi had no support at all, while Saddam Hussein remains one of the six most popular politicians in the country.

Go figure.

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

Yes, certainly uncalled for, no argument here. Just like when I watched American soldiers breach the Geneva Conventions and shoot a wounded civilian Iraqi (he didn't have any uniform either) while he was down and wounded, after they shot him to death, they yelled and cheered. It was on "CNN Presents" last week-end. The things that happen in war are quite sickening.. it happens on both sides a lot more then we think.. we only get to find out about it when it caught on film.

Really :shock:

I missed that one!

Any links anywhere I can view?

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

Yes, certainly uncalled for, no argument here. Just like when I watched American soldiers breach the Geneva Conventions and shoot a wounded civilian Iraqi (he didn't have any uniform either) while he was down and wounded, after they shot him to death, they yelled and cheered. It was on "CNN Presents" last week-end. The things that happen in war are quite sickening.. it happens on both sides a lot more then we think.. we only get to find out about it when it caught on film.

Really :shock:

I missed that one!

Any links anywhere I can view?

I don't know if there is a link or not.. I watched it on TV on the week end.. it was on one of their "CNN Presents" programs.. you could try to look it up on their site.. it was called "Fit To Kill" they might have a page for their CNN Presents program.

The Iraqi's don't love you. I watch the news.


"If you watch television news you know less about the world than if you drank gin out of a bottle."
--Gerrison Keillor

The Iraqi's don't love you. I watch the news.


"If you watch television news you know less about the world than if you drank gin out of a bottle."
--Gerrison Keillor

hehe I like.. cute ;)

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

Yes, certainly uncalled for, no argument here. Just like when I watched American soldiers breach the Geneva Conventions and shoot a wounded civilian Iraqi (he didn't have any uniform either) while he was down and wounded, after they shot him to death, they yelled and cheered. It was on "CNN Presents" last week-end. The things that happen in war are quite sickening.. it happens on both sides a lot more then we think.. we only get to find out about it when it caught on film.

Really :shock:

I missed that one!

Any links anywhere I can view?

I don't know if there is a link or not.. I watched it on TV on the week end.. it was on one of their "CNN Presents" programs.. you could try to look it up on their site.. it was called "Fit To Kill" they might have a page for their CNN Presents program.

I really want a link as well. If this is accurate (not questioning what you saw, just the presentation - the news media has a stake in taking such things out of context), it is a serious breach of the UCMJ. (I can*t find the links at the moment, but I*m pretty sure 8 marines were charged with murder for a similar sounding war crime sometime last year.)

Found the CNN Presents: Fit To Kill archieved here (with comments): http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

Yes, certainly uncalled for, no argument here. Just like when I watched American soldiers breach the Geneva Conventions and shoot a wounded civilian Iraqi (he didn't have any uniform either) while he was down and wounded, after they shot him to death, they yelled and cheered. It was on "CNN Presents" last week-end. The things that happen in war are quite sickening.. it happens on both sides a lot more then we think.. we only get to find out about it when it caught on film.

Really :shock:

I missed that one!

Any links anywhere I can view?

I don't know if there is a link or not.. I watched it on TV on the week end.. it was on one of their "CNN Presents" programs.. you could try to look it up on their site.. it was called "Fit To Kill" they might have a page for their CNN Presents program.

I really want a link as well. If this is accurate (not questioning what you saw, just the presentation - the news media has a stake in taking such things out of context), it is a serious breach of the UCMJ. (I can*t find the links at the moment, but I*m pretty sure 8 marines were charged with murder for a similar sounding war crime sometime last year.)

Well it was pointed out that the kill was shot as in the camera man.. with a zoom lens.. so they weren't actually as close to the wounded man as it appeared.. but he was obviously wounded.. even from the distance they were at.. it was a bit dramatic because they did make it look like the army dudes were much closer to him then they really were.. but they also showed another one that apparently is still under investigation by the military where a chopper I think it was.. using infra-red they fired at a man dumping what appeared to be a rocket launcher in a field.. and then they noted he was still moving, trying to crawl away.. and they killed him, they showed it all from the advantage of the cockpit.. I guess they had an embed or some thing with them from CNN.. apparently the guys who did it may still face a court martial... it was a really shocking program.. like I said.. it goes on a lot more then we know.. on both sides.. there just isn't always a camera to capture it.

Again the fact they died is not what pissed people off. Burning, mutilation, and dragging did.

Yes, certainly uncalled for, no argument here. Just like when I watched American soldiers breach the Geneva Conventions and shoot a wounded civilian Iraqi (he didn't have any uniform either) while he was down and wounded, after they shot him to death, they yelled and cheered. It was on "CNN Presents" last week-end. The things that happen in war are quite sickening.. it happens on both sides a lot more then we think.. we only get to find out about it when it caught on film.

Really :shock:

I missed that one!

Any links anywhere I can view?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm

Well it was pointed out that the kill was shot as in the camera man.. with a zoom lens.. so they weren't actually as close to the wounded man as it appeared.. but he was obviously wounded.. even from the distance they were at.. it was a bit dramatic because they did make it look like the army dudes were much closer to him then they really were.. but they also showed another one that apparently is still under investigation by the military where a chopper I think it was.. using infra-red they fired at a man dumping what appeared to be a rocket launcher in a field.. and then they noted he was still moving, trying to crawl away.. and they killed him, they showed it all from the advantage of the cockpit.. I guess they had an embed or some thing with them from CNN.. apparently the guys who did it may still face a court martial... it was a really shocking program.. like I said.. it goes on a lot more then we know.. on both sides.. there just isn't always a camera to capture it.

Just posted a link to it above - don*t you love cross posting! :wink:

Yep. War crimes do go on. At least the US has a fairly good record of prosecuting them (Not perfect mind you, but much better than many.)
Oh, and I suggest not referring to Marines as army dudes. They tend to take exception...

Hmmm it was not as startling as I thought. But that is probably because I was raised with the notion of war. My family have been soldiers for longer then we can remember.

Combat is a horrible thing. It is easy to sit back in your nice comfy chair and be horrified by actions in combat. It's easy to say "how can they do that?"

Until, you have been under fire and felt the sting of battle, you really don't understand. I think I do but I only have a better perception then most. I know I don't really understand.

This kind of stuff goes on all the time. In all armies. I had a buddy who was a ranger in Nam. He once told me that VC snipers like to wound somebody so they can shoot the people that try to run up and help the guy. If you tried to move say an armored vechicle to get some cover, they would kill the soldier.

This is rather tame as to other actions that go on. If compare it to seeing guys getting napalmed(my Nam buddy), or a chinese mass charge getting bombarded by a Battleship(an Uncle was in Korea). The Russians in Afganistan! A work mate has really ugly stories about what went on there.

Maybe we should make people watch this stuff. It might make people think twice about war. Then again it probably would not make a difference. As my history professor used to remark "There have been 6000 wars in the last 2000 years. Man likes to fight."

Evil acts go on and people are not always punished for it. After the Battle of Stalingrad, over 60000 men marched off to POW camps. Less then 5000 (or was it 3000) returned.

The Viet Namese(sp) used to beat prisoners to death(the Hanoi Jane incident) and they were never punished for it.

You don't always hear about things as you pointed out. Just about everybody has heard about Mi lai in Viet Nam. However, you will never hear about a VC incident where they went into a village, rounded up all the women, young and old and flamethrowered them. The reason. To punish them for the men off fighting in the South Viet. Army.

It was said that war is the ultimate test of character. It brings out the best and the worst in men.

I don't have a link but I did see a story about US soldiers doing the "right" thing. It was a firefight in some town. An old Iraqi lady was hit and stuck in the middle of a bridge. You hear the commander saying "Well, she is not going to last much longer so lets do it" They rolled an APC out in front of her and pulled her out.

People seem to be more cynical then ever. I mentioned this to some of my European friends and they only scoffed and said it was staged. :roll:

The people involved in the shooting incident might be court Martialed. In fact, since it made a major news agency, they probably will. It will be reviewed and if it was an illegal killing, they will be punished.

We may not do everything right, but we usually do an ok job at punishing criminal acts in the army.

one word to describe the whole war:
failure