NationStates Jolt Archive


Thousands voice anger after US gags Shiite paper

Smeagol-Gollum
30-03-2004, 09:03
Thousands voice anger after US gags Shiite paper

March 30, 2004

US troops closed a popular Baghdad newspaper and padlocked the doors of its offices after the occupation authorities accused it of printing lies that incited violence.

Thousands of outraged Iraqis gathered in central Baghdad to demonstrate against the closure as an act of US hypocrisy. Their protest laid bare the hostility many feel towards the US a year after the invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein.

"No, no, America" and "Where is democracy now?" they screamed.

By nightfall on Sunday their numbers had swollen to thousands as they squared off against a line of US soldiers.

The closure of Al Hawza, a radical Shiite publication, reflected the struggle by US authorities to strike a balance between encouraging democracy and maintaining stability, as the June 30 target date for handing sovereignty back to the Iraqi people approaches.

However, security seems increasingly elusive.

On Sunday the Public Works Minister, Nasreen Barwari, the only woman in the government, narrowly escaped assassination in the northern city of Mosul, when three of her bodyguards were killed. Two foreign workers, a British and a Canadian civilian security guard, were shot dead nearby in front of a power plant.

Later on Sunday in Mosul US soldiers were engaged in a shootout with a band of armed men.

Ms Barwari was last week seen sitting behind the US civil administrator, Paul Bremer, when he announced that her ministry would be among the first four to gain independence from the US-led coalition this Thursday.

US officials turned over full control of the Health Ministry to Iraqi officials on Sunday, making it the first autonomous ministry.

Mr Bremer described the formal return of complete authority over budget, personnel and other administrative matters to Iraqi health officials as a key step in restoring self-government.

Many Iraqis said that closing down a popular newspaper at such a critical time would only inflame opposition to the occupation.

"When you repress the repressed, they only get stronger," said Hamid al-Bayati, a spokesman for the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, a prominent Shiite political party.

"Punishing this newspaper will only increase the passion for those who speak out against the Americans."

American authorities said Al Hawza might reopen in 60 days. However, the editors said that essentially they had been put out of business.

"We have been evicted from our offices and we have no jobs," said Saadoon Mohsen Thamad, a news editor, as he stared at a padlock hanging from the front gate. "How are we going to continue?"

Al Hawza was known for printing wild rumours, especially anti-American ones, and was considered a mouthpiece for Moqtada al-Sadr, a fiery young Shiite cleric and one of the most outspoken critics of the US-led invasion.

The letter ordering the closure of the paper was signed by Mr Bremer. It cited what the US called several examples of false reports.

"That paper might have been anti-American but it should be free to express its opinion," said Kamal Abdul Karim, night editor of the Azzaman daily.

The New York Times, AFP, Washington Post

Source : http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/29/1080544427109.html

Comment.

Good thing the troops are there to protect people from democracy,
freedom of speech and self-determination.

No WMDs was bad enough, but hey, you could always claim to be "liberating" the people.

Wonder what spin they'll try next.
Smeagol-Gollum
30-03-2004, 11:05
Guess this is just gonna fade away into a quiet death.

Not really surprised.

Its not really "news" because it has no novelty value.

People become numbed, which I think is the greatest loss.
Austar Union
30-03-2004, 11:05
yeah, but it does stop rebellion in Iraq... well, kind oif helps anyway...
Smeagol-Gollum
30-03-2004, 11:15
yeah, but it does stop rebellion in Iraq... well, kind oif helps anyway...

"Rebellion" ????

What do you suppose they would be "rebelling" against then?

The lawful government that they don't have?

The elections that have again been postphoned?

The unelected government that is about to be foisted upon them?

I was hopeful that a free and democratic Iraq was supposed to be a goal.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 11:18
This was absolutely one of the biggest mistakes we could have made there...first off..it's a Shiite paper..we should have been doing everything to mollify these people..shutting down that paper only cements in the largest faction of people that we do not mean what we say when we tell them we have come to help them...no matter how outrageous the paper is, there are papers here in the States that have openly advocated overthrowing the Government of the United States yet we don't padlock their doors.
Austar Union
30-03-2004, 11:19
they're rebelling against the coaltion, who liberated them... they just hate the americans...
Austar Union
30-03-2004, 11:20
This was absolutely one of the biggest mistakes we could have made there...first off..it's a Shiite paper..we should have been doing everything to mollify these people..shutting down that paper only cements in the largest faction of people that we do not mean what we say when we tell them we have come to help them...no matter how outrageous the paper is, there are papers here in the States that have openly advocated overthrowing the Government of the United States yet we don't padlock their doors.

There also arent any active rebellion groups...
Smeagol-Gollum
30-03-2004, 11:23
they're rebelling against the coaltion, who liberated them... they just hate the americans...

Strange... I thought they were going to welcome you as liberators.

Perhaps you just don't act that way.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 11:25
This was absolutely one of the biggest mistakes we could have made there...first off..it's a Shiite paper..we should have been doing everything to mollify these people..shutting down that paper only cements in the largest faction of people that we do not mean what we say when we tell them we have come to help them...no matter how outrageous the paper is, there are papers here in the States that have openly advocated overthrowing the Government of the United States yet we don't padlock their doors.

There also arent any active rebellion groups...

That point is irrevelent....either we stand by our principles as a democractic nation or they mean nothing...Listen....I knew this was going to get us into trouble the minute we almost couldn't get the Shiites on board following that Constitution delay. It shows a bad precedent to the Iraqi people that we are not any better then how Saddam's people would have done it..
30-03-2004, 11:26
Ah the people in charge of this occupation are brainless...

These public figures of opposition to the U.S. occupation should be killed, constantly. As soon as one rises, kill it. No time for martyrdom because he'll be dead before he talks to more than 20 people. This will result in a large shortage of extremists. From this point forward, we can work on helping the Iraqis set up a real Democracy, without worrying about these extremist nuts taking over, because we shot them all.
30-03-2004, 11:28
they're rebelling against the coaltion, who liberated them... they just hate the americans...

Eh, coalition = americans?

Also, liberate = shutting down papers?
Brittanic States
30-03-2004, 11:32
Ah the people in charge of this occupation are brainless...

These public figures of opposition to the U.S. occupation should be killed, constantly. As soon as one rises, kill it. No time for martyrdom because he'll be dead before he talks to more than 20 people. This will result in a large shortage of extremists. From this point forward, we can work on helping the Iraqis set up a real Democracy, without worrying about these extremist nuts taking over, because we shot them all. :D :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You are a really funny guy- but dont you worry that people might be taking you seriously now and then? :wink:
The "coalition of the willing" shouldnt be shooting anybody that isnt shooting at them.The more people the coalition shoot- the more support the extremists will have- the worse it will be for folks that have to live in Iraq.
30-03-2004, 11:43
The extremists have power because we treat them so well. We allow them to sit in public, ranting and raving against the U.S. They need to die silently in the night at the hands of a Green Beret, before they gather followers numbering in the hundreds. This will erode support for the extremists as they suddenly find themselves with no leaders, and no one willing to take the lead.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 12:02
The extremists have power because we treat them so well. We allow them to sit in public, ranting and raving against the U.S. They need to die silently in the night at the hands of a Green Beret, before they gather followers numbering in the hundreds. This will erode support for the extremists as they suddenly find themselves with no leaders, and no one willing to take the lead.

And this is how you export American principles and ideals?..I didn't fight, bleed for, and swear an oath defending our Constitution to not allow for others to find their own way in life and their version of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"..

We are there to promote democracy...how can you promote democracy, and the free flow of ideals, information and yes...anti-Americanism if we stifle this....

Personally...I'm all up for public execution..then again...I'm not the one trying to build a nation based on democratic ideals...shutting down that paper is reminiscent of the KGB or Iran's Secret police.
30-03-2004, 12:20
Theres American "freedom of speech" at work for you.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 12:23
Theres American "freedom of speech" at work for you.

And Simkaria..as far as your hate on for America...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all....any country that allows for marijuna to be sold at stores and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings (please tell me your military has improved it's professional outlook)...and wasn't it a Dutch contingent that allowed for the slaughter at the UN Haven at Srebenica...surrendered without so much as a shot being fired wasn' t it?
30-03-2004, 12:28
Theres American "freedom of speech" at work for you.

And Simkaria..as far as your hate on for America...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all....any country that allows for marijuna to be sold at stores and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings (please tell me your military has improved it's professional outlook)...
I know many people who are currently in the army. And non fit's your description. And it's Nederland. And what does it explain?


and wasn't it a Dutch contingent that allowed for the slaughter at the UN Haven at Srebenica...surrendered without so much as a shot being fired wasn' t it?
Yes it was. But what does that have to do with the American war of agression on the citizens of the world? Including their so called friends and allies.
Smeagol-Gollum
30-03-2004, 12:33
Theres American "freedom of speech" at work for you.

And Simkaria..as far as your hate on for America...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all....any country that allows for marijuna to be sold at stores and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings (please tell me your military has improved it's professional outlook)...and wasn't it a Dutch contingent that allowed for the slaughter at the UN Haven at Srebenica...surrendered without so much as a shot being fired wasn' t it?

Ah, the favourite tactic of the rabid right.

If you cannot think of a successful defence for what you've just been caught at, attack the accuser. Something personal and derogatory is good, something which fits into a nice little stereotype is even better.

May I remind you that this thread is about the shutting down of the press in Iraq, by US troops.

If you must spout your bigotry, please do so in your own thread.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 12:36
Theres American "freedom of speech" at work for you.

And Simkaria..as far as your hate on for America...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all....any country that allows for marijuna to be sold at stores and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings (please tell me your military has improved it's professional outlook)...and wasn't it a Dutch contingent that allowed for the slaughter at the UN Haven at Srebenica...surrendered without so much as a shot being fired wasn' t it?

Ah, the favourite tactic of the rabid right.

If you cannot think of a successful defence for what you've just been caught at, attack the accuser. Something personal and derogatory is good, something which fits into a nice little stereoptype is even better.

May I remind you that this thread is about the shutting down of the press in Iraq, by US troops.

If you must spout your bigotry, please do so in your own thread.

Excuse me...lol..you must be joking..have you once read Simkaria's comments and chastised him?....


Rabid right..on the contrary...I'm Centrist Right. and you twit if you had read my posts I wasn't defending the shut down of the paper. In fact I believe it was a total mistake and should be reopened..


And I give as good as it gets...when Simkaria refrains from making his CONSTANT America-bashing...then perhaps I won't bring up some of the hallmarks of Duch Society.
30-03-2004, 12:38
And I give as good as it gets...when Simkaria refrains from making his CONSTANT America-bashing...then perhaps I won't bring up some of the hallmarks of Duch Society.
I would, maybe, refrain from it. If Americans like you and Eli wouldn't constantly bash Europe, France in particular, and then expect a cookie every time you do.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 12:43
And I give as good as it gets...when Simkaria refrains from making his CONSTANT America-bashing...then perhaps I won't bring up some of the hallmarks of Duch Society.
I would, maybe, refrain from it. If Americans like you and Eli wouldn't constantly bash Europe, France in particular, and then expect a cookie every time you do.

Bull...I've been reading your posts....and if you've read mine I don't bash Europe..perhaps some political philosophies..but the Continent itself..nope. I read awhile before even posting my first thread...and you were bashing America like you have some personal vendentta to prove. And the part bout American servicemembers just wanting to find drugs is now explained to me...the Netherlands is after all a nation that has very lax drug laws..why would American servicemembers go there for drugs, gee..I don't know...perhaps it's because you sell it in storefronts?...And I won't even go into the Red Light districts..
Brittanic States
30-03-2004, 12:44
Argh!
Salishe and Simkaria be nice!I am sure there must be things about each others countries that you like or at least respect.
Smeagol-Gollum you need to be saying "crikey" more mate- steve Irwins getting pissed.
*Passes cookies round thread*
30-03-2004, 12:53
And I give as good as it gets...when Simkaria refrains from making his CONSTANT America-bashing...then perhaps I won't bring up some of the hallmarks of Duch Society.
I would, maybe, refrain from it. If Americans like you and Eli wouldn't constantly bash Europe, France in particular, and then expect a cookie every time you do.

Bull...I've been reading your posts....and if you've read mine I don't bash Europe..perhaps some political philosophies..but the Continent itself..nope. I read awhile before even posting my first thread...and you were bashing America like you have some personal vendentta to prove. And the part bout American servicemembers just wanting to find drugs is now explained to me...the Netherlands is after all a nation that has very lax drug laws..why would American servicemembers go there for drugs, gee..I don't know...perhaps it's because you sell it in storefronts?...And I won't even go into the Red Light districts..
You absolutely don't make any sense. What part about members of your Amateuristic forces wanting to get drugs? Theres been no part about that. At least not in this thread. And the red light districts? What about them? They are a hell of a lot saver for the both the prostitutes and the clients then anything America has to offer. Including the part of STD's.
And you like to bash all those that didn't went along with your countries war of agression and those that did. There are 1100 Dutch Royal Marines cleaning up the mess in the of S-Iraq you created as well.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 14:14
Argh!
Salishe and Simkaria be nice!I am sure there must be things about each others countries that you like or at least respect.
Smeagol-Gollum you need to be saying "crikey" more mate- steve Irwins getting pissed.
*Passes cookies round thread*

When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..as long as he wishes to continue his little "poor victim Europe being bullied by evil US" tirades..I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....so when he decides to discuss things in an adult manner I will respond in king.
Slutbum Wallah
30-03-2004, 14:33
Part of the problem in Iraq is that if we were to completely pull out now and leave it to the Iraqi people, the chances are the country would simply revert to the control of the Muslim priests. Not the nice Muslim priests either. The kill-all-western-scum-in-holy-jihad Muslim priests. Making sure that there is a goverment with a reasonable support base is probably why this is taking so long.
BackwoodsSquatches
30-03-2004, 14:34
So..correct me if im wrong....but in the U.S ...

We pride ourselves on our Right to Freedom of the Press.
Wich amendment is that kids?

So..

Now..were offering our kind of democracy..or imposing it rather...
on Iraq.

Scuse me......but does this strike anyone else as HORRIBLY WRONG?

Its no better than Guantanamo Bay...where we are denying peoples right to a fair trial....

This is not the kind of democracy we are supposed to have people...
This isnt the way its supposed to be!!

This is WRONG!!!
Utopio
30-03-2004, 14:41
When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..

Well, as Basil Fawlty said, you started it.

and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings

O, my word!!! Earings!!! BEARDS!!!!!!!!! What has the world come too!! When men wear beards in public, woe is me! [/sarcasm]

Salishe: Chill. Breathe. If you can't hack people with beards or earings then I propose your in the wrong century. Your posts sound ridiculous, as well as contradictory:

I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....

...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all...

Stop trying to sound so high-and-mighty. It's backfiring.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 14:53
When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..

Well, as Basil Fawlty said, you started it.

*Actually...no.I didn't start it..perhaps in this thread I'll grant you, but sim's hate-on has pervaded virtually every single solitary friggin post of his and frankly...it's wearing out my patience, if he'd been one of my grandsons I would have put him in time-out by now..or got a hickory stick, all depends on how I felt by then*

and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings

O, my word!!! Earings!!! BEARDS!!!!!!!!! What has the world come too!! When men wear beards in public, woe is me! [/sarcasm]

*We are talking about the professionalism of military personnel, Dutch standards had regressed to the state of 1960's hippies. Complete with long hair, beards, and ear rings..all of which to me (and I retired from the Marine Corps) spells out Unprofessional.*

Salishe: Chill. Breathe. If you can't hack people with beards or earings then I propose your in the wrong century. Your posts sound ridiculous, as well as contradictory:

I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....

*And if you had read from my earlier statement that I will continue to nit-pick his country as long as continues to pick on mine, tit for tat, what is good for the goose is good for the gander*

...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all...

Stop trying to sound so high-and-mighty. It's backfiring.

Backfiring to whom?...
Zeppistan
30-03-2004, 14:56
This was absolutely one of the biggest mistakes we could have made there...first off..it's a Shiite paper..we should have been doing everything to mollify these people..shutting down that paper only cements in the largest faction of people that we do not mean what we say when we tell them we have come to help them...no matter how outrageous the paper is, there are papers here in the States that have openly advocated overthrowing the Government of the United States yet we don't padlock their doors.

There also arent any active rebellion groups...

Gee... according to all the news reports by Bush 'n co they write off all rebellion as being the work of disgruntled ex-ba'athists (aka Sunni Muslims) and foriegn infiltraters. this newspaer was Shi'ite, and adding that group to those pissed at you is not a very good move. As it is Sistani is just barely going along with the interim Constitution and unelected governing body. If he takes exception to repression of his group and calls for more active resistance - even of a nonviolent nature - the situation will get very bad very quickly.

Besides, your argument seems premised on some sort of causative link between this paper and rebellion. If that were the case, should the government have gone in a shut down every ultra-right wing newspaper int he US after Oklahoma City?

How about after the Anthrax attack that seems to have been domestic in nature?

Freedom of expression is one of those basic, inalienable rights that seems to be rather a high part of the US constitution. Denying that to a country you are claiming to be liberating and bringing up to your standards of freedoms is a rather counterintuitive method of getting people to believe that this is indeed your goal.

-Z-
Joseph Curwen
30-03-2004, 14:58
Part of the problem in Iraq is that if we were to completely pull out now and leave it to the Iraqi people, the chances are the country would simply revert to the control of the Muslim priests. Not the nice Muslim priests either. The kill-all-western-scum-in-holy-jihad Muslim priests. Making sure that there is a goverment with a reasonable support base is probably why this is taking so long.

hmmm Muslim priests lol
I can see your a fountain of knowledge on Islam
:lol:

There is a grain of something here however, now that the US has stepped in the pile, pulling straight out would be a bad thing. However, if they're going to espouse the wonders of democracy on the "heathens", they should get on with it, and then get out. If an anti-American Islamic government arises from a democratic vote in the country, then so be, such is democracy. It's not about we'll hold elections, and choose the teams who are allowed to run for office, it's about putting a government for the people. Allowing the Iraqi's self-determination, and getting out will do more to placate anti-american sentiment then any other thing they could do. As for the threat of a coup by fundamentalists, that's a threat that every country in the Middle East live with on a daily basis, and have for several centuries. The extremists in the area aren't going away anytime soon, and the US staying in Iraq, only makes them a bigger target. Closing down newpapers and shutting down democratic elections only incites anger by orders of magnitude. The Americans went in claiming to be "Liberators of the Iraqi people", not occupiers, well liberators don't shut down newspapers and erect puppet governments.

And shooting the militant leaders in the head as soon as they crop up, only works when they obligingly stand in the middle of a market square shouting out to soldiers "HEY YOU THERE, I"M AN MILITANT FUNDAMENTALIST, COULD YOU SHOOT ME NOW PLEASE!!!". Which of course the extremists do all the time, they just don't get shot or arrested because the American forces are to busy mollycoddling them...lol OOOKKKK. Sorry had to throw that in.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 15:15
This was absolutely one of the biggest mistakes we could have made there...first off..it's a Shiite paper..we should have been doing everything to mollify these people..shutting down that paper only cements in the largest faction of people that we do not mean what we say when we tell them we have come to help them...no matter how outrageous the paper is, there are papers here in the States that have openly advocated overthrowing the Government of the United States yet we don't padlock their doors.

There also arent any active rebellion groups...

Gee... according to all the news reports by Bush 'n co they write off all rebellion as being the work of disgruntled ex-ba'athists (aka Sunni Muslims) and foriegn infiltraters. this newspaer was Shi'ite, and adding that group to those pissed at you is not a very good move. As it is Sistani is just barely going along with the interim Constitution and unelected governing body. If he takes exception to repression of his group and calls for more active resistance - even of a nonviolent nature - the situation will get very bad very quickly.

Besides, your argument seems premised on some sort of causative link between this paper and rebellion. If that were the case, should the government have gone in a shut down every ultra-right wing newspaper int he US after Oklahoma City?

How about after the Anthrax attack that seems to have been domestic in nature?

Freedom of expression is one of those basic, inalienable rights that seems to be rather a high part of the US constitution. Denying that to a country you are claiming to be liberating and bringing up to your standards of freedoms is a rather counterintuitive method of getting people to believe that this is indeed your goal.

-Z-

We're in agreement Zepp (if you got this name because you like Lead Zepplin we have even more things in common)...pissing off the Shiites now would be a public relations and security FUBAR (I hope everyone knows what FUBAR is). Until now..many of them had forgotten the fact that we abadoned them to Saddam's purges following the first Gulf War and were relatively content and adjusting...although like a new baby, their first exposures to liberty and freedom have mushroomed, they went from secret police and no dissent to full blown out near-riots and religous movements to copy Iran's form of government...they aren't used to it and unfortunately like children they need to be spoonfed it...but closing down the paper was a giant step-backwards..

Assigning them an interim government that we had picked enabled all factions to have a say...if we'd had gone with straight out elections like the Shiites wanted...they would have won and launched reprisals against the Sunnis...we'd have civil war within a year...and the Kurds would have sat on the sidelines waiting to pick up the scraps...all the while sitting pretty on the oil fields that lay within their domain. For in essense the ones to win the most out of all this have been the Kurds...they've have grown by leaps and bounds since the war began.
30-03-2004, 15:22
When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..as long as he wishes to continue his little "poor victim Europe being bullied by evil US" tirades..I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....so when he decides to discuss things in an adult manner I will respond in king.
An adult matter eh? What is that to you? Bashing France and nominating Bush and the US for saint hood? And I don't see how you
"nit-pick" about my country. Cause nothing you nit-picked" about so far is rattling my cage in any way.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 15:25
When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..as long as he wishes to continue his little "poor victim Europe being bullied by evil US" tirades..I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....so when he decides to discuss things in an adult manner I will respond in king.
An adult matter eh? What is that to you? Bashing France and nominating Bush and the US for saint hood? And I don't see how you
"nit-pick" about my country. Cause nothing you nit-picked" about so far is rattling my cage in any way.

First off...my posts carefully have shown disagreement with the current trends of the French government..you bash America as a whole..not just the government.

Second..keep up your bashing and it might just give me reason to go over your nation's history with a fine tooth comb.
Zeppistan
30-03-2004, 15:25
Actually - while I am still a big fan of Led Zep, the Zepp is a carryover from my alter ego Zeppo Marx that I adopted a couple of decades ago when I first ventured online back in the days of BBS's.

As to the council - yes it needed an air of legitimacy away from a straight military rule at first, and was a neccessary step while democracy gets organized. Although I think a few of the appointees are very suspect. Especially Chalabi who is a convicted felon and who was seemingly responsible for funneling many of the dissidents to Bush and Co. who provided false intel. Did you know that the single guy who made the claim of mobile WMD labs turned out to even be related to him by marriage?


It is a fine line to walk between bringing them along, and dictating the outcome of every step. I understand the risks involved, but I think Bremmer has been leaning to far towards controlling the outcomes along the way. That could backlash eventually if the majority don't feel things are moving fast enough, or if they feel that it is a sham process where they are excluded from defining their own destiny.

-Z-
Utopio
30-03-2004, 15:27
Actually...no.I didn't start it..perhaps in this thread I'll grant you, but sim's hate-on has pervaded virtually every single solitary friggin post of his and frankly...it's wearing out my patience, if he'd been one of my grandsons I would have put him in time-out by now..or got a hickory stick, all depends on how I felt by then

If Simarkia was really having a 'hate-on' as you call it, the Mods would have warned or DEAT'd the guy by now. So far as I can see (and have read) you have an irrational hatred for the Netherlands - fuelled by anger at 'hippies', weed, earings and long hair - while Simarkia has an irrational dislike for America - fuelled by living in a much freer country. Your both as bad as each other, and continuing till the other person stops is a endless, circular and stupid process. Look where it's got Palestine and Israel.

We are talking about the professionalism of military personnel, Dutch standards had regressed to the state of 1960's hippies. Complete with long hair, beards, and ear rings..all of which to me (and I retired from the Marine Corps) spells out Unprofessional.

Of course you can't be proffesional and have long hair. Oooh no. Only crazy hippie commie liberal freaks have long hair. :roll: Better not take any trips into large towns, Salishe. Might have a hard town dealing with all the 'hippies' and their craaaazy long hair. I feel sorry for when you come accross a mohawk or a piercing. Might just kill you.

Your a good debator Salishe - at least you usually are. I like reading your posts. If somone is stupidly attacking your country, lowering yourself to that level is just wrong. If you can only win over arguments with country bashing, your not winning arguments.
Zeppistan
30-03-2004, 15:31
When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..as long as he wishes to continue his little "poor victim Europe being bullied by evil US" tirades..I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....so when he decides to discuss things in an adult manner I will respond in king.
An adult matter eh? What is that to you? Bashing France and nominating Bush and the US for saint hood? And I don't see how you
"nit-pick" about my country. Cause nothing you nit-picked" about so far is rattling my cage in any way.

Simkaria,
I think you are off the mark.

You know I enjoy nothing better than bashing the mindless far-right extremes, hell - I've made it my career sometimes - but Salishe isn't one of them.

He is conservative, yes, but is more than happy to say when he disagrees with the Republican platform or performance.

He wants to have real debate here. I personally apreciate that. Don't lump him into in the pile with the Snubis's of the board. If we have the right to criticize US policy, he has equal right to do the same for France's, or Britains, or whereever - because ain't a one of 'em perfect.

Well - except Canada of course!

:wink:

lol - I wish.

Anyway - your choice. You can go toe to toe if you like - but you're picking the wrong target in my opinion.

-Z-
30-03-2004, 15:34
[quote=Salishe]When the little boy is nice I'll be civil..

Well, as Basil Fawlty said, you started it.

*Actually...no.I didn't start it..perhaps in this thread I'll grant you, but sim's hate-on has pervaded virtually every single solitary friggin post of his and frankly...it's wearing out my patience, if he'd been one of my grandsons I would have put him in time-out by now..or got a hickory stick, all depends on how I felt by then*
*And your constant "everything is better in America and the rest of you suck cause you aren't like us and you owe us etc..... attitude, not just you, is reason I went from pro America to anti America. And if I was one of your grandsons? Sorry, pops, but your not old enough to be my granddad. And letting us know what you would do with them doesn't scare me.*

and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings

O, my word!!! Earings!!! BEARDS!!!!!!!!! What has the world come too!! When men wear beards in public, woe is me! [/sarcasm]

*We are talking about the professionalism of military personnel, Dutch standards had regressed to the state of 1960's hippies. Complete with long hair, beards, and ear rings..all of which to me (and I retired from the Marine Corps) spells out Unprofessional.*
*I haven't seen a single Dutch soldier that fit your description. But then again one can tell an American almost everything and they will believe it. They aren't the brightests of folks. Did you now all Dutch troops were klompen (wooden shoes, clogs, not sure what the English word for it is)? Realy, they do. And we all live in windmills and grow tulips as well. Honest.*
Salishe: Chill. Breathe. If you can't hack people with beards or earings then I propose your in the wrong century. Your posts sound ridiculous, as well as contradictory:

I will continue to nit-pick his country, not that I know where he is from....

*And if you had read from my earlier statement that I will continue to nit-pick his country as long as continues to pick on mine, tit for tat, what is good for the goose is good for the gander*
*Nit-picking bout what?*
...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all...
*Seeing as your American and an Indian, well, it pretty much speaks for itself*
30-03-2004, 15:37
If Simarkia was really having a 'hate-on' as you call it, the Mods would have warned or DEAT'd the guy by now. So far as I can see (and have read) you have an irrational hatred for the Netherlands - fuelled by anger at 'hippies', weed, earings and long hair - while Simarkia has an heartily dislikes America - fuelled by living in a much freer country. Your both as bad as each other, and continuing till the other person stops is a endless, circular and stupid process. Look where it's got Palestine and Israel.

My heartily dislike for America is fueled by guys like Salishe or Eli or Kwangistar and others like them. I used to be always on the side of America. But thanks to guys like them I let that boat sail without me.
Ecopoeia
30-03-2004, 15:37
Hmm. I thought that this thread was about the censorship of the Iraqi press...

Anyhoo, this is a damn stupid idea. Now is the time that all Iraqi voices need to be heard. They're shaping their future. Better we hear what they have to say now than later when matters have been set in constitutional stone.

As for the allied forces withdraw/stay debate, we've waded in and made a mess of the country (though with some very obvious positive effects) so it would be outrageous to abandon them because the going's got tough. Which puts me against a lot of the peace movement I was so passionately a part of.

Sigh.
Zeppistan
30-03-2004, 15:46
Oh, and Simkara, I'm not sure when Salishe retired form the MArines, but the Dutch military DID have to allow long hair and earings for it's troops (http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/world/96/08/31/dutch-draft.html) after a court challenge in the 70's. It became a very common way for draftees to show their displeasure at being drafted in an approved way.

To quote:
"The Netherlands is now keen to develop a more mobile, slimmed-down, all-professional army and has acted recently to clamp down on what it sees as slack standards.

Dutch soldiers gained international notoriety in the 1970s when a wrangle over conscripts' personal freedom resulted in the whole army being allowed to sport earrings and long hair"


Of course, since '96 when they ended conscription this has probably dropped in frequency, but soldiers are still permitted great latitude in hair style and jewellry.

So, don't be telling an old war horse that he never saw it. It happened. It still happens. Although I would wager that the all-volunteer army has become far more professional than that of a decade ago. I don't know when Salishe retired so I won't speak to when his experience with Dutch troops might have been.

-Z-
30-03-2004, 15:49
Oh, and Simkara, I'm not sure when Salishe retired form the MArines, but the Dutch military DID have to allow long hair and earings for it's troops (http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/world/96/08/31/dutch-draft.html) after a court challenge in the 70's. It became a very common way for draftees to show their displeasure at being drafted in an approved way.

Of course, since '96 they have ended conscription this has probably dropped in frequency, but soldiers are still permitted great latitude in hair style and jewellry.

So, don't be telling an old war horse that he never saw it. It happened. It still happens. Although I would wager that the all-volunteer army has become far more professional than that of a decade ago. I don't know when Salishe retired so I won't speak to when his experience with Dutc troops might have been.

-Z-
Oh, I know the Dutch military is a little more "free" then perhaps others. But the way he made it sound was like they were all hippies constantly "exploring" the higher-planes carrying around sun flowers instead of rifles.
Zeppistan
30-03-2004, 15:55
Oh, and Simkara, I'm not sure when Salishe retired form the MArines, but the Dutch military DID have to allow long hair and earings for it's troops (http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/world/96/08/31/dutch-draft.html) after a court challenge in the 70's. It became a very common way for draftees to show their displeasure at being drafted in an approved way.

Of course, since '96 they have ended conscription this has probably dropped in frequency, but soldiers are still permitted great latitude in hair style and jewellry.

So, don't be telling an old war horse that he never saw it. It happened. It still happens. Although I would wager that the all-volunteer army has become far more professional than that of a decade ago. I don't know when Salishe retired so I won't speak to when his experience with Dutc troops might have been.

-Z-
Oh, I know the Dutch military is a little more "free" then perhaps others. But the way he made it sound was like they were all hippies constantly "exploring" the higher-planes carrying around sun flowers instead of rifles.

So - you're sensitive about criticism of your country but still want the right to be critical of the US? Don't dish it if you can't take it.

A military person will put far more emphasis on military laxness in a team that he might have to count on to defend his flank one day. It's just a diferent priority than civillians generally think about.

You can keep b*tching about him if you like - but in my experience Salishe is a very rational and moderate conservative. It's nice to have a few here that are willing to actually debate rather than just post links to Ann Coultur columns.

Anyway - I must get to work.

Carry on amongst yourself...

-Z-
30-03-2004, 15:57
So - you're sensitive about criticism of your country but still want the right to be critical of the US? Don't dish it if you can't take it.


I can take it. *points towards Salishes Screbrenica comment.* Unlike an American I'm not making up excuses for the misconduct of the troops.
Salishe
30-03-2004, 16:09
So - you're sensitive about criticism of your country but still want the right to be critical of the US? Don't dish it if you can't take it.


I can take it. *points towards Salishes Screbrenica comment.* Unlike an American I'm not making up excuses for the misconduct of the troops.

Ok...let me retract the comment as to the professionalism and bravery of the Dutch contingent at the UN Haven at Srebenica....I have no doubt that if ordered to they would have attempted to repel the Serbians. But as their outpost was undermanned, and underequipped to deal with the size of the force that finally overran the haven I can see where their only recourse was to surrender to save as many of their own comrades as possible...

Personally....I might have ordered my Marines to get as many of the muslims in one place..say a colisseum or park...surround it with the troops I had...defiantly told the Serb commander to stick it...and promptly call in air strikes (which were available I'm told) on their positions. Then again..I wasn't the Dutch commander on the ground..he made a difficult decision that unfortunately had major repurcussions..because with the surrender of the Dutch contingent....all hope the muslims had was lost and then the slaughter began in earnest.

My apologies Sim if you thought I was denigrating the bravery of the Dutch troops there.

Zep....I retired in 1986 after a full 20...was recalled to active duty for the First Gulf War because they had a shortage of combat-experienced Staff Non-Commissioned Officers who'd lead the new kids on the block.
Smeagol-Gollum
31-03-2004, 10:18
Theres American "freedom of speech" at work for you.

And Simkaria..as far as your hate on for America...knowing your from der Neiderlands explains it all....any country that allows for marijuna to be sold at stores and it's soldiers to wear beards, long hair, and mercy me ear rings (please tell me your military has improved it's professional outlook)...and wasn't it a Dutch contingent that allowed for the slaughter at the UN Haven at Srebenica...surrendered without so much as a shot being fired wasn' t it?

Ah, the favourite tactic of the rabid right.

If you cannot think of a successful defence for what you've just been caught at, attack the accuser. Something personal and derogatory is good, something which fits into a nice little stereoptype is even better.

May I remind you that this thread is about the shutting down of the press in Iraq, by US troops.

If you must spout your bigotry, please do so in your own thread.

Excuse me...lol..you must be joking..have you once read Simkaria's comments and chastised him?....


Rabid right..on the contrary...I'm Centrist Right. and you twit if you had read my posts I wasn't defending the shut down of the paper. In fact I believe it was a total mistake and should be reopened..


And I give as good as it gets...when Simkaria refrains from making his CONSTANT America-bashing...then perhaps I won't bring up some of the hallmarks of Duch Society.

Quite simply, stick to the topic.
Avoid personal abuse, which only makes your post look devoid of thought or factual content.
"And I give as good as it gets" is a wonderful example of the sort of cool rational debate that we are not seeking.
If I may so bold as to quote Ghandi "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".
The best way to amend someone's behaviour is not to mimic it, but to set a better example.
The simple refrain of "America bashing" is losing its validity as a counter.
Smeagol-Gollum
31-03-2004, 10:22
Argh!
Salishe and Simkaria be nice!I am sure there must be things about each others countries that you like or at least respect.
Smeagol-Gollum you need to be saying "crikey" more mate- steve Irwins getting pissed.
*Passes cookies round thread*

Crikey mate.

Strewth and stone the flamin' crows cobber, they're trying to bung on a blue!

Anyway mate I'm drier than a dead dingoe's donger after those cookies (and I'm bloody sure you meant biscuits cobber) - chuck us a tinnie.

Crikey. (walks out to the tune of Waltzing Matilda)