NationStates Jolt Archive

Im a young english catholic and want to know who ells is (may be not english though) I AM PROUD R U? i am not predjustice or however you spell it in any way against any other religion

I'm an Italian catholic.

American Catholic :D

I'm an Italian catholic.

Let me remind you we invented catholicism.

Anyone who is proud of their religion deserves to be buried knee deep in sand with a shady character wearing a trenchcoat & smoking a cigar patting them paternally on the shoulder saying calmly and in a deep voice, "let this be a lesson to you".

i am not predjustice or however you spell it in any way against any other religion

Presumably you think (in your opinion) that your religion is the best though?

It is not my place to pass jujment

I'm an Italian catholic.

Let me remind you we invented catholicism.
This was after your split from the orthadox church then.
So did you split from the Orthadox or they from you?

I'm an Italian catholic.

Let me remind you we invented catholicism.
This was after your split from the orthadox church then.
So did you split from the Orthadox or they from you?

That is the nice thing about Catholicism - it's all orthodox. If it's not, it ain't Catholicism.

of all the things to take pride in, why on earth would you pick this one?

if you were born to Catholicism then you didn't do anything special to become Catholic. if you converted to Catholicism then you didn't do anything more special than anybody converting away from it or to another religion. if you're proud to be one of God's favorite people (and thus not going to hell) then aren't you just gloating over how much better you are, and therefore experiencing the sin of Pride?

I'm an Italian catholic.

Let me remind you we invented catholicism.
This was after your split from the orthadox church then.
So did you split from the Orthadox or they from you?

That is the nice thing about Catholicism - it's all orthodox. If it's not, it ain't Catholicism.
No but didn't the Catholic church and the Greek orthdox/Russia orthadox church have some big falling out and split. Was it something about the holy trinity or was it the body of Christ thing? My source of catholic knowlege is off work today.

of all the things to take pride in, why on earth would you pick this one?

if you were born to Catholicism then you didn't do anything special to become Catholic. if you converted to Catholicism then you didn't do anything more special than anybody converting away from it or to another religion. if you're proud to be one of God's favorite people (and thus not going to hell) then aren't you just gloating over how much better you are, and therefore experiencing the sin of Pride?

Common misunderstanding - Catholicism is not genetic, it is not a race of people. (This is why people are quick to say they were raised Catholic, but when you ask them when they last attended mass, they'll say something like "when I was a teenager" - then why are they still associating themselves with a religion??) It's a religion that has to be lived up to like any other. Converting to a religion is living up to the doctrines of that religion. In order to show humility, you have to be proud of something. Being pride is showing that you can do something well. You are thinking of the sin of Pride in reference to Pride being a vanity - totally different context.

of all the things to take pride in, why on earth would you pick this one?

if you were born to Catholicism then you didn't do anything special to become Catholic. if you converted to Catholicism then you didn't do anything more special than anybody converting away from it or to another religion. if you're proud to be one of God's favorite people (and thus not going to hell) then aren't you just gloating over how much better you are, and therefore experiencing the sin of Pride?

Common misunderstanding - Catholicism is not genetic, it is not a race of people. (This is why people are quick to say they were raised Catholic, but when you ask them when they last attended mass, they'll say something like "when I was a teenager" - then why are they still associating themselves with a religion??) It's a religion that has to be lived up to like any other. Converting to a religion is living up to the doctrines of that religion. In order to show humility, you have to be proud of something. Being pride is showing that you can do something well. You are thinking of the sin of Pride in reference to Pride being a vanity - totally different context.


hear hear

You can be proud of your religion even if your born into it because you still have to choose if you follow it or not. Just like you can be proud of your nation even if your just born in it. If your not proud or you hate your country move! Simple as that and be proud of a nation that is more close to your belief system religon is a lot like that.

I think god is as real as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

I think god is as real as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

I glad your convinced he exists

I think god is as real as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

I glad your convinced he exists

:lol:

Baptised as an Irish Catholic.

I'm not a follower; opting toward Zen.

Im a young english catholic and want to know who ells is (may be not english though) I AM PROUD R U? i am not predjustice or however you spell it in any way against any other religion
Why are you proud of filth?

Im a young english catholic and want to know who ells is (may be not english though) I AM PROUD R U? i am not predjustice or however you spell it in any way against any other religion
Why are you proud of filth?

Really, don't hide your opinions. How do you really feel? :lol:

I think god is as real as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

:lol:

That's good! I like your sense of humour!

of all the things to take pride in, why on earth would you pick this one?

if you were born to Catholicism then you didn't do anything special to become Catholic. if you converted to Catholicism then you didn't do anything more special than anybody converting away from it or to another religion. if you're proud to be one of God's favorite people (and thus not going to hell) then aren't you just gloating over how much better you are, and therefore experiencing the sin of Pride?

Common misunderstanding - Catholicism is not genetic, it is not a race of people. (This is why people are quick to say they were raised Catholic, but when you ask them when they last attended mass, they'll say something like "when I was a teenager" - then why are they still associating themselves with a religion??) It's a religion that has to be lived up to like any other. Converting to a religion is living up to the doctrines of that religion. In order to show humility, you have to be proud of something. Being pride is showing that you can do something well. You are thinking of the sin of Pride in reference to Pride being a vanity - totally different context.

never said you were born genetically Catholic, but there are mountains of evidence showing that most people who are religious belong to the religion their parents raised them to. it's not a matter of biology, it's a matter of conditioning.

i've never heard that "being pride is showing that you can do something well," and that's a very different definition than my dictionary gives. perhaps you could expand on that?

You can be proud of your religion even if your born into it because you still have to choose if you follow it or not. Just like you can be proud of your nation even if your just born in it. If your not proud or you hate your country move! Simple as that and be proud of a nation that is more close to your belief system religon is a lot like that.
that's like saying that if you don't LOVE bread you should never eat it. i am not proud of anything that is a mere accident of birth, like my nationality, because i didn't do anything to acheive it. i am also not ashamed of it, and i don't want to move because i have become comfortable and well-adapted where i am.

Catholic convert in Texas - and yes, I am quite proud of the faith, and thank God each day for His mercy in allowing a sinner like myself to join His Church.

I'm a Christian, but I don't consider myself apart of a specific denomination of Christianity.

of all the things to take pride in, why on earth would you pick this one?

if you were born to Catholicism then you didn't do anything special to become Catholic. if you converted to Catholicism then you didn't do anything more special than anybody converting away from it or to another religion. if you're proud to be one of God's favorite people (and thus not going to hell) then aren't you just gloating over how much better you are, and therefore experiencing the sin of Pride?

Common misunderstanding - Catholicism is not genetic, it is not a race of people. (This is why people are quick to say they were raised Catholic, but when you ask them when they last attended mass, they'll say something like "when I was a teenager" - then why are they still associating themselves with a religion??) It's a religion that has to be lived up to like any other. Converting to a religion is living up to the doctrines of that religion. In order to show humility, you have to be proud of something. Being pride is showing that you can do something well. You are thinking of the sin of Pride in reference to Pride being a vanity - totally different context.

never said you were born genetically Catholic, but there are mountains of evidence showing that most people who are religious belong to the religion their parents raised them to. it's not a matter of biology, it's a matter of conditioning.

i've never heard that "being pride is showing that you can do something well," and that's a very different definition than my dictionary gives. perhaps you could expand on that?

Sure. Pride is what one shows in ones actions or deeds when one tries to do well. Like pride in ones efforts shows your self-respect - which is a virtue. To show humility assumes that you have something to humble about - if you suck at everything you do, there is no reason you have to show humility. The Sin of Pride has to do with its other context relating to vanity or bragging about one's ability. This makes the assumption that your abilities are totally your own and did not come from above - like conceit. Pride is not the sin, turning pride (self-respect) into vanity is.

of all the things to take pride in, why on earth would you pick this one?

if you were born to Catholicism then you didn't do anything special to become Catholic. if you converted to Catholicism then you didn't do anything more special than anybody converting away from it or to another religion. if you're proud to be one of God's favorite people (and thus not going to hell) then aren't you just gloating over how much better you are, and therefore experiencing the sin of Pride?

Common misunderstanding - Catholicism is not genetic, it is not a race of people. (This is why people are quick to say they were raised Catholic, but when you ask them when they last attended mass, they'll say something like "when I was a teenager" - then why are they still associating themselves with a religion??) It's a religion that has to be lived up to like any other. Converting to a religion is living up to the doctrines of that religion. In order to show humility, you have to be proud of something. Being pride is showing that you can do something well. You are thinking of the sin of Pride in reference to Pride being a vanity - totally different context.

never said you were born genetically Catholic, but there are mountains of evidence showing that most people who are religious belong to the religion their parents raised them to. it's not a matter of biology, it's a matter of conditioning.

i've never heard that "being pride is showing that you can do something well," and that's a very different definition than my dictionary gives. perhaps you could expand on that?

Sure. Pride is what one shows in ones actions or deeds when one tries to do well. Like pride in ones efforts shows your self-respect - which is a virtue. To show humility assumes that you have something to humble about - if you suck at everything you do, there is no reason you have to show humility. The Sin of Pride has to do with its other context relating to vanity or bragging about one's ability. This makes the assumption that your abilities are totally your own and did not come from above - like conceit. Pride is not the sin, turning pride (self-respect) into vanity is.

wait, so it is a sin to be proud of your own work without giving credit to someone else? because that's what we call "clinical codependent personality disorder" in the business. i guess i'm guilty of that sin, since i believe that my actions are my own and nobody else deserves the blame or the credit for them. that's what adulthood is about to me: personal accountability and responsibility. i can't imagine how any God would want or need to take credit for what a free-will-imbued human choses to do with his or her life, or why any person would chose to believe in a God that would expect that.

but there's a lot i don't understand about Catholic beliefs, so we'll just add that to the list.

Im a young english catholic and want to know who ells is (may be not english though) I AM PROUD R U? i am not predjustice or however you spell it in any way against any other religion

I'm a young english Catholic!

I'm 16 and live in London! I'm Catholic through my dads side (they are Italian)

wait, so it is a sin to be proud of your own work without giving credit to someone else? because that's what we call "clinical codependent personality disorder" in the business. i guess i'm guilty of that sin, since i believe that my actions are my own and nobody else deserves the blame or the credit for them. that's what adulthood is about to me: personal accountability and responsibility. i can't imagine how any God would want or need to take credit for what a free-will-imbued human choses to do with his or her life, or why any person would chose to believe in a God that would expect that.

but there's a lot i don't understand about Catholic beliefs, so we'll just add that to the list.
When asked where they got the color of their eyes, most people would point to the parent with that trait. When asked where we received good judgement for actions, most Catholics will point to God or the bible. You don't instinctively do the majority of your actions, they come from learned responses and beliefs that someone educated you in over time. Your good acts are not yours alone, but you have witnessed them and passed them along to others knowingly or unknowingly. You are held responsible for the action/inaction directly, but you must acknowledge that others have taught you something about the judgements you make. I respect your inability to grasp specific Catholic beliefs, but you will find that most Philosophy taught by Socrates and Aristotle hold similar ideas.

I'm proud to be Catholic too. And American. And Hispanic. Proud to be everything I am. :)

British Ex-Catholic (from Manchester).

Catholicism may not be genetic, but growing up as a Catholic does frame your thinking into a particular mindset. Something I only really noticed when I moved away from home, and met a higher proportion of non-Catholics.

I am Roman Catholic and Proud of it!!!!!!!

Catholicism may not be genetic, but growing up as a Catholic does frame your thinking into a particular mindset.

That's not true.

Just because you are Catholic doesn't mean you have to sign up to everything that the Church says, for example: I support the use of conraception. I've been raised Catholic but it hasn't put me into a particular mindset.

Catholicism may not be genetic, but growing up as a Catholic does frame your thinking into a particular mindset.

That's not true.

Just because you are Catholic doesn't mean you have to sign up to everything that the Church says, for example: I support the use of conraception. I've been raised Catholic but it hasn't put me into a particular mindset.

Interesting point. How do you reconcile this view with Canon Law, specifically Canon 214: "The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescripts of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church and to follow their own form of spiritual life so long as it is consonant with the doctrine of the Church."? The Roman Catholic church has spoken out very strongly against the use of contraception so to believe in it's use would seem to be a clear violation of church law, which is a very big thing indeed among Catholics.

Interesting point. How do you reconcile this view with Canon Law, specifically Canon 214: "The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescripts of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church and to follow their own form of spiritual life so long as it is consonant with the doctrine of the Church."? The Roman Catholic church has spoken out very strongly against the use of contraception so to believe in it's use would seem to be a clear violation of church law, which is a very big thing indeed among Catholics.

Many people say this to me, and because I am a progressive Catholic (i.e: I support womans ordination against other reformation in the Church and its doctrine) they say to me I am not Catholic.

I think I am though. Just because I don't agree with all that they say does not, to me, make me not Catholic. The Church is a human structure and thus it cannot always speak the truth - all human are open to error.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).

British Ex-Catholic (from Manchester).

Catholicism may not be genetic, but growing up as a Catholic does frame your thinking into a particular mindset.

It does indeed. I have noticed that there is a very strong tendency towards structuralist thinking after being raised Catholic. Not everyone raised Catholic exhibits the same degree of it though. Some have either minimised its effects on their mindset or gotten rid of it entirely. I myself escaped a Catholic upbringing, but my Fundamentalist Christian background was hardly much better. I'm just glad my parents allowed me to make my own choices regarding morality once I reached the 'Age of Reason'.

Interesting point. How do you reconcile this view with Canon Law, specifically Canon 214: "The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescripts of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church and to follow their own form of spiritual life so long as it is consonant with the doctrine of the Church."? The Roman Catholic church has spoken out very strongly against the use of contraception so to believe in it's use would seem to be a clear violation of church law, which is a very big thing indeed among Catholics.

Many people say this to me, and because I am a progressive Catholic (i.e: I support womans ordination against other reformation in the Church and its doctrine) they say to me I am not Catholic.

I think I am though. Just because I don't agree with all that they say does not, to me, make me not Catholic. The Church is a human structure and thus it cannot always speak the truth - all human are open to error.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).

But isn't a central tennant of the Catholic church, at least the Roman Catholic church, the infaliability of the Pope and the supreme authority of Church doctrine? You response begs the next question, which matters more: what YOU think you are or what THE CHURCH thinks you are?

To disagree with an authoritarian institution such as the Catholic church is to, in effect, deny the basic premise that the Chruch itself is built on (not the faith, perhaps, but certainly the temporal hierarchy of the Church itself). Therefore, why do you cleve to this religion that you openly disagree with to some degree and why is it permitted for you to disagree with accepted church doctrine on your own judgement yet still claim to support the church?

Fundamentalist Christian background

I thought that you were Catholic. :?

Fundamentalist Christian background

I thought that you were Catholic. :?

I am now.

I am very proud to be Catholic. Especially around Christmas and Easter.

I'm also proud that I don't go around calling everyone else's religion (or lack of) "filth" or ask them why they chose to worship (or not) in the manner they like.

P.S. Did anybody see that Sen. Kerry wore a ski suit to church? You'd think that a guy with riches out the wazoo could afford a nice suit to wear in a House of God.

I'm an ex-Catholic :d

Catholicism may not be genetic, but growing up as a Catholic does frame your thinking into a particular mindset.

That's not true.

Just because you are Catholic doesn't mean you have to sign up to everything that the Church says, for example: I support the use of conraception. I've been raised Catholic but it hasn't put me into a particular mindset.

I never said that you sign up to all the church teachings, even if you become an atheist (like me). I said that it 'trains' your mind in a particular way. Not in negative way, nor positive (a neutral way). True this doesn'thappen to all, but it is a strong tendancy.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

Irish Catholic and Proud of it!

Agnostic who runs a Catholic alliance in NS and II (for RPing) ... it's fun.

God bless

I am now.

Oh...okay...I also thought that the Catholic Church was quite fundamental..... :?

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

Hmmm good point

I never said that you sign up to all the church teachings, even if you become an atheist (like me). I said that it 'trains' your mind in a particular way. Not in negative way, nor positive (a neutral way). True this doesn'thappen to all, but it is a strong tendancy.

Could you explain a bit further as to how it trains your mind, please.

My dad was a roman catholic, but fortunately lost his faith fairly early on and realised that it's utterly wrong to impose a faith on his children. So i'm not religious at all.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

No...I am a Catholic. I believe in the Pope as the head of the Church and apart from a few things I believe in what the Church says.

Just because you don't agree with all the laws of a particular nation does not mean that you are not a citizen of that nation.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

No...I am a Catholic. I believe in the Pope as the head of the Church and apart from a few things I believe in what the Church says.

Just because you don't agree with all the laws of a particular nation does not mean that you are not a citizen of that nation.

No. You missed the particulars - not believing in laws are different than not living by them. If you continually break the laws that you do not believe in, you have removed yourself from the values and principles that the society holds. So, yes, you have voluntarily removed yourself from that society if you do not live up to the rules and laws. You can call yourself anything you want, your actions and decisions are what show who you really are.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

Speaking of structuralism...

Speaking of structuralism...
The individual always has the right to belong or not to belong to society, because any society is based on the agreement of the individuals within it. However, everyone must comply by the rules therein.

The individual always has the right to belong or not to belong to society, because any society is based on the agreement of the individuals within it. However, everyone must comply by the rules therein.

What utter catpoo.

'Society' cannot be 'joined' or 'left'. I break loads of laws every day. Doesn't mean I'm not part of society.In effect your saying that everyone who's ever downloaded illegal MP3's is not a part of society.

And what's this twaddle about an 'agreement'? I've never agreed to anything to do with joining a society - unless the Beavers count.

In no way do you 'have' to comply to the rules. You just can't get caught breaking them.

You don't celebrate your religion, you mourn it.

First of all I'm a Christian. After that I'm Roman-Catholic. Still proud of it though.

You don't celebrate your religion, you mourn it.
"You took an idea and made a belief structure out of it" or "it doesn't matter what you place that faith in, just as long as you have faith"
Dogma's an excellent film and study of religion/belief. It should be shown to RE groups to promote thought...

You don't celebrate your religion, you mourn it.
"You took an idea and made a belief structure out of it" or "it doesn't matter what you place that faith in, just as long as you have faith"
Dogma's an excellent film and study of religion/belief. It should be shown to RE groups to promote thought...

I want to buy you a drink/coffee/ice-cream! :D

in terms of what you belive in, there is very little difference between the catholic faith and any other christian faith. Christain faith has alot to do with national identity. Henry VIII decided to change england from a catholic country to a protestent country overnight becuase he could'nt divorce his spanish wive! :D While most of europe was catholic, jolly old england relished in being different and superior than their european neighbours. In england, protestent became synominous with "English" where as catholic became synominous with "the bad guys" eg french and spanish, and many wars (eg spanish armarda), was fought over this. Even today in britain, religion has alot to do with national identity. for example the majority of protestent Northern Irish want to stay in the UK wheras the catholics generally want to become independent from britain.

Im C of E by the way.

What utter catpoo.

'Society' cannot be 'joined' or 'left'. I break loads of laws every day. Doesn't mean I'm not part of society.In effect your saying that everyone who's ever downloaded illegal MP3's is not a part of society.

Thankyou! That's absolutely correct.

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

No...I am a Catholic. I believe in the Pope as the head of the Church and apart from a few things I believe in what the Church says.

Just because you don't agree with all the laws of a particular nation does not mean that you are not a citizen of that nation.

No. You missed the particulars - not believing in laws are different than not living by them. If you continually break the laws that you do not believe in, you have removed yourself from the values and principles that the society holds. So, yes, you have voluntarily removed yourself from that society if you do not live up to the rules and laws. You can call yourself anything you want, your actions and decisions are what show who you really are.

exactly. if you don't follow the rules of Catholicism then you aren't a Catholic, you're some guy who shares a few beliefs with Catholics. that's fine, but you should admit what you are because otherwise people will just see through you anyhow and you lose credability.

exactly. if you don't follow the rules of Catholicism then you aren't a Catholic, you're some guy who shares a few beliefs with Catholics. that's fine, but you should admit what you are because otherwise people will just see through you anyhow and you lose credability.

Answer me this - is it true that only Catholics (men) can become Pope?

The Catholic church built itself on the spilt blood of anyone it encountered of a different race/creed/colour. Nowadays it's still rotten to the core, as anyone who managed to discover the (buried) news story about the Vatican Bank official who was found hanging underneath London's Tower Bridge after pissing off the Bank's main customer - The Mob, will attest. The Vatican Banks only shareholder and director? None other than the Pope. I don't even need to go into the numerous cases of child abuse and other church scandals.

And this is a faith that people are proud to be part of? It makes me sick.

This thread is pointless.

P.S. Father Ted pwns.

P.S. Father Ted pwns.

No it doesn't. It's a crap show.

You don't celebrate your religion, you mourn it.
"You took an idea and made a belief structure out of it" or "it doesn't matter what you place that faith in, just as long as you have faith"
Dogma's an excellent film and study of religion/belief. It should be shown to RE groups to promote thought...

I want to buy you a drink/coffee/ice-cream! :D

*chuckles*
Coffee does the trick!
Beer just makes me rant like theres no tommorow!

Yea I'm Catholic :)

Religion is not now, and has never been, terribly important to the vast bulk of humanity. For almost everyone, it's a bit of superstition practised now and again -- rub this, kiss that, light the other, say the magic words for luck. Important occasions, such as births, marriages and deaths, stick out, as do the bigger holidays. But faith has very little influence on the day-to-day lives of the huge majority of people, even on those who claim to be believers.

It seems clear to me from reading the Gospels that, if you want to be a Christian, you should (amongst other things) "take all your money, and give it to the poor". That's what Jesus says, is it not? But as a practical basis for a functional organised religion, it's obviously a bit much: so it rapidly became, "take some of your money, and give it to the church".

Other things that Christians should do would be turning the other cheek and loving their enemies. Again, not practical in the real world: so these get "interpreted" to mean, "kill if you have to -- just try to do it in an organised way (and really go for it if the church says it's OK)".

"Christianity", and by extension all of its fractured subdivisions, is a nebulous and constantly changing concept. In Catholicism, Popes disagree with Cardinals, who bicker with bishops, who argue with priests, who are ignored by the laity where it suits them. Enormous debates, spanning centuries, boil up between denominations on what sort of bread to use for the Host while millions starve across the planet. Pope John Paul II would be burned as a heretic by most of his predecessors, for (amongst other transgressions) permitting the Bible to be translated from Latin or Greek, approving of non-Latin Masses, and admitting that the earth goes around the sun. Many members of the early, pre-Constantinian church (insofar as it existed at all as a single entity) would have been appalled at the editorial decisions made at the Council of Nicaea, not to say pissed off that, three centuries on from the crucifixion, Christ still hadn't put in a second appearance. What they would think if you told them that he's still not back nearly 2000 years later, I couldn't say. "Die, heretic!", probably.

In short, it is obviously impossible to define "Catholicism", or even "Christianity". They don't exist as exterior entities -- they are merely partially-consensual concepts in the minds of their various adherents. I suppose the question should really be, "Are you proud to imagine yourself a Catholic?"

However, what they preach is correct (I favour abstinence over contraception) it's just that I feel that sometimes they take it a bit too far - I believe what they are essentially saying is correct but they've got it slightly wrong (if you know what I mean).
This is what is called cafeteria catholicism. Placed in another context - if you decided that you liked some laws in your country and not others and lived your life that way, you would be legally taken out of that society by being placed in jail. The rules are quite clear, and by its definition, you're not Catholic. But thanks for hoping.

No...I am a Catholic. I believe in the Pope as the head of the Church and apart from a few things I believe in what the Church says.

Just because you don't agree with all the laws of a particular nation does not mean that you are not a citizen of that nation.

No. You missed the particulars - not believing in laws are different than not living by them. If you continually break the laws that you do not believe in, you have removed yourself from the values and principles that the society holds. So, yes, you have voluntarily removed yourself from that society if you do not live up to the rules and laws. You can call yourself anything you want, your actions and decisions are what show who you really are.

exactly. if you don't follow the rules of Catholicism then you aren't a Catholic, you're some guy who shares a few beliefs with Catholics. that's fine, but you should admit what you are because otherwise people will just see through you anyhow and you lose credability.

Hi, I'm an Italian Catholic, and quite proud of it, though I first think of myself as a Christian, and then a Roman Catholic.
Anyway, I think you missed a point... Catholicism has some strong beliefs, and around them our Creed is built. We all learn them in the Cathechism before owr first Communion. Ok, these Belifs are Dogmas, if you accept them, you are a Christian Catholic, if you don't, you aren't. Stop. But, if you analize them, you can see that for the most part they are the same of all christian faiths... We're all brothers in Christ, after all :) !
Then, we have some moral "guidelines", such as the prohibition of "contraception". The Church has a strong position about it, and a coherent one, in my opinion. But if you don't follow this indication, you're still able to take part to the Communion during Mass (e.g. it's not so for divorced who get married again, becouse they break one of the fundamental concept of Catholicism), so you're still in the Ecclèsia, in the Church, still a Catholic. Catholicism is not this STRONG institution some belive... there are even Archibishops who don't agree with this indication! The debate is still open...

What utter catpoo.

'Society' cannot be 'joined' or 'left'. I break loads of laws every day. Doesn't mean I'm not part of society.In effect your saying that everyone who's ever downloaded illegal MP3's is not a part of society.

Thankyou! That's absolutely correct.

Then why do prosecuted criminals not have the same rights as others? Why can't they vote? Why is gun rights for criminals even an issue? You agree to the society every time you do anything to not break its rules. Foriegners who break US law are often deported depending on the extent of the crime. Nothing different in your case, even in a religion. Only difference is who took you out of that society. One or two philosophy classes will enlighten you to your religious belief system and the consequences of saying you are a part of one.

Then, we have some moral "guidelines", such as the prohibition of "contraception". The Church has a strong position about it, and a coherent one, in my opinion. But if you don't follow this indication, you're still able to take part to the Communion during Mass (e.g. it's not so for divorced who get married again, becouse they break one of the fundamental concept of Catholicism), so you're still in the Ecclèsia, in the Church, still a Catholic.
You are in error. Please consult with your local bishop on this.

Then why do prosecuted criminals not have the same rights as others? Why can't they vote? Why is gun rights for criminals even an issue? You agree to the society every time you do anything to not break its rules. Foriegners who break US law are often deported depending on the extent of the crime. Nothing different in your case, even in a religion. Only difference is who took you out of that society. One or two philosophy classes will enlighten you to your religious belief system and the consequences of saying you are a part of one.

But, regardless of that fact, you are still a part of that society and you are still a citizen.

(Anyway, I thought that criminals could vote after they ahd been released from jail. Are you American?)

There are so many subtopics in here that I don't know where to start. Maybe I should start by saying that I am a Traditional Roman Catholic who feels as though she's been beat over the head with a catechism for the past... I think 7 years and still believes what the Church teaches becuase, as I wouldn't say in polite society, "it's too damme logical."

Now. On to duty.

we invented catholicism

Pardon me for correcting you, but no, the Jews did. Remember? The Jews were the Chosen People and their Messiah founded the Church. Catholicism is merely the fulfillment of Judiasm. (spelled that wrong I think) Or maybe I should say GOD DID.

Answer me this - is it true that only Catholics (men) can become Pope?

Well, only Catholic men can become Catholic priests, only Catholic priests can become Catholic bishops, only Catholic bishops can become Catholic cardinals, and only a Catholic cardinals can become the Catholic Pope. I'm sorry I overused the word Catholic there, and I left out archbishop because I think I remember reading of a bishop who skipped that step.

Somebody wrote something about the Church being a "human institution." I'm sorry, but this is entirely incorrect. It is a divine institution, founded by the divine Son of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and is His bride. It is also the Mystical Body of Christ. Catholics are the members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Let's say that we agree on the fact that Christ founded a church, and that we don't agree which church. Well, there are four marks (here my voice gets really dull because I'm basically reciting the St. Joseph's Baltimore Catechism I had to pratically memorize) four marks of the true church: One, Holy, Catholic or Universal, and Apostolic. The Catholic Church is One because all its members, according to the will of Christ, profess the same faith, have the same sacrifice and sacraments, and are united under one and the same visible head, the Pope. The Catholic Church is holy because it was founded by Jesus Christ, who is all-holy, and because it teaches, according to the will of Christ, holy doctrines, and provides the means of leading a holy life, thereby giving holy members to every age. The Catholic Church is catholic or universal becuase, destined to last for all time, it never fails to fulfill the divine commandment to teach all nations all the truths revealed by God. The Catholic Church is apostolic because it was founded by Christ on the apostles and, according to His divine will, has always been governed by their lawful successors. We know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ because no other church has these four marks. (Okay, I looked it up and quoted. :P )

The question was also brought up "What is the Church?" and I tried to answer it, but this is better: "The Church is the congregation of all baptized persons united in the same true faith, the same sacrifice, and the same sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him.

And I did brush on this earlier in my post, but On the Infallibility of the Pope and the Catholic Church:

By the infallibility of the Catholic Church is meant that the Church, by the special assistance of the Holy Ghost, cannot err when it teaches or believes a doctrine of faith or morals. The Church teaches infallibly when it defines, through the Pope alone, as the teacher of all Christians, or through the Pope and the bishops, a doctine of faith or morals to be held by all the faithful. Get that, guys? Faith or morals. Outside the realm of faith or morals, the Church is not infallible.

To end my rather long and involved post (sorry 'bout that), an anecdote... well a little story of something that happened to me Saturday.

I was in a meeting of Catholic teenage girls and the leader said, "too bad we don't have a really hard question, like 'Who is God'"

Well, I didn't think about at all, I just said automatically "God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who makes all things and keeps them in existence." (Question No. 2 in the St. Joseph's Baltimore Catechism; I'd memorized it a half-dozen times at least and as I said, it was the automatic response.)

Another girl said, "Just ask her.!"

And the point? Not one, really. Just to say that if there are any questions you'd like me to answer concerning matters of religion, I'll be back next week. :wink:

[quote="Catholic EuropeBut, regardless of that fact, you are still a part of that society and you are still a citizen.

(Anyway, I thought that criminals could vote after they ahd been released from jail. Are you American?)[/quote]
I am an American, and they're voting status depends on the part of the US (most states remove this right) and how extreme the crime is. Again, though, the society gives you rights and your status as "citizen" can be removed. Have no never heard of "deportation?"

I am a Traditional Roman Catholic

Okay, are you like Mel Gibson. Do you reject Vatican II? Are you for Latin Mass?

Well, only Catholic men can become Catholic priests, only Catholic priests can become Catholic bishops, only Catholic bishops can become Catholic cardinals, and only a Catholic cardinals can become the Catholic Pope. I'm sorry I overused the word Catholic there, and I left out archbishop because I think I remember reading of a bishop who skipped that step.

No offence, but I asked that question to Bottle, knowing full well what the answer would come out like (what you wrote), in order to prove a point - that although I don't agree with everything the Church says I still am a Catholic and I can still become the head of the Catholic Church - but with a lot of God's will! :P

[quote="Catholic EuropeBut, regardless of that fact, you are still a part of that society and you are still a citizen.

(Anyway, I thought that criminals could vote after they ahd been released from jail. Are you American?)[/quote]
I am an American, and they're voting status depends on the part of the US (most states remove this right) and how extreme the crime is. Again, though, the society gives you rights and your status as "citizen" can be removed. Have no never heard of "deportation?"

I'm a half-breed!

I was baptized Ukranian Catholic, but I'm practicing in the Roman Catholic rite here in Canada.

:D Aiera

Speaking of structuralism...
The individual always has the right to belong or not to belong to society, because any society is based on the agreement of the individuals within it. However, everyone must comply by the rules therein.

I just love it when people prove me right.

I am very proud to be Catholic. Especially around Christmas and Easter.

I'm also proud that I don't go around calling everyone else's religion (or lack of) "filth" or ask them why they chose to worship (or not) in the manner they like.

P.S. Did anybody see that Sen. Kerry wore a ski suit to church? You'd think that a guy with riches out the wazoo could afford a nice suit to wear in a House of God.

I'm proud to be pluralist all year round. :wink:

*note- Pluralist

n 1: a philosopher who believes that no single explanation can account for all the phenomena of nature 2: someone who believes that distinct ethnic or cultural or religious groups can exist together in society


As far as Kerry goes...I don't think God cares what we wear to his/her house. I think it's great that he feels like he has a real frienship/relationship with God and doesn't feel the need to dress up every time he visits/worships. To me, these are human standards motivated by money and have zero to do with respect or love of God....IMHO.

[quote]I just love it when people prove me right.
OK, I'm lost. What's proving anything when you state the given?

I just love it when people prove me right.
OK, I'm lost. What's proving anything when you state the given?

You just lost me too. Could you rephrase the question? Your grammar seemed a bit ambiguous there.

Have no never heard of "deportation?"

I have, but that's not done anymore....is it?

I am a Traditional Roman Catholic

Okay, are you like Mel Gibson?

Yea, and I'll probably 99.9% or 100% agree with everything that's in The Passion. If my parents ever take me and my passes to the theater ( :roll: ).

Do you reject Vatican II?

I'd have to do some research to answer that correctly, first by reading the documents (which I'm pretty sure we have in the next room). Probably yes to what you mean though.

Are you for Latin Mass?

Definitely, and I'll be even more for it when I'm done learning Latin.

Well, only Catholic men can become Catholic priests, only Catholic priests can become Catholic bishops, only Catholic bishops can become Catholic cardinals, and only a Catholic cardinals can become the Catholic Pope. I'm sorry I overused the word Catholic there, and I left out archbishop because I think I remember reading of a bishop who skipped that step.

No offence, but I asked that question to Bottle, knowing full well what the answer would come out like (what you wrote), in order to prove a point - that although I don't agree with everything the Church says I still am a Catholic and I can still become the head of the Catholic Church - but with a lot of God's will! :P

Oh, ok.
:| I think maybe you should look up the meaning of heretic... Just a suggestion. Or I could post it, if you like.

I don't think God cares what we wear to his/her house.

Well... He does care if we dress immodestly (backless shirts, frontless shirt, really short shorts or skirts, etc.). It is a sin because it induces other people to sins like lust and envy (capital sins!) and it is a bad example.

Keep in mind I'm not necessarily trying to "convert ye sinners," even though I should be according to the teaching of the Church. I'm just defending my Faith. I'm sure even a pagan or an athiest can understand that. :wink: