NationStates Jolt Archive

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Yes, I know that nothing I can say would make anybody on these forums, and possibly not in person, change to see Christ. I know there is little that can reach these “hardcore” atheists. I especially believe this about those, such as Dakini, who have “done the Christian thing” and seen the hypocrites of the church.

while i appreciate the mention... i'm hardly a hardcore atheist. i don't even consider myself an atheist. i'm an agnostic humanist with buddhist leanings, thank you very much.
i tend to take the "atheist" side in debates though, so i can see where you might be mistaken there.

i woudl like to point out a few things though, evolution is not a law, it is a theory. and a pretty solid one. in case you missed the show on tlc explaining how the whole parting of the red sea could have happened... there was a great earthquake in the mediterranian in that approximate time frame that would have caused a tida wave. withdrawing water before finally crashing into shore. thus drying up the sea, allowing people to cross, but crushing those who follow them with a wave of water.

also, of all the great people i admire, only one of them is christian. and i do not admire him because of it. i admire him because he is my dad. i've yet to meet a cruel atheist. even a cruel satanist, despite the slander about them. yet i've met a number of unnecessarily cruel, shallow, backstabbing christians.

Wow...just...wow...Deep stuff man. Yeah, i haven't been all that good either. But arguing for Christ here in NS has actually helped, as trivial as it may sound. I'm readin my bible more, getting into it, right? Anyway, right on brother, or sister :wink: . Keep the faith!

P.S. Take a look at my region, if you're interested in moving.

Sorry... but it's not only the hypocrite Christians that give Christians a bad name. It's also those who think their new beliefs are the complete truth. Humans are always fallible. Even if they think they found God.

Good people don't preach down to others, they live a good life. And other people might actually be encouraged to follow their good example (or other people's good example).

The only truely harcore atheist on these boards was Cartese, I think.

The only truely harcore atheist on these boards was Cartese, I think.

Well he was the closest that the boards had to an Atheist Evangelical.

Good people don't preach down to others, they live a good life. And other people might actually be encouraged to follow their good example (or other people's good example).

but you don't have to be a christian to be a good person. why someone who is a good person and a christian beany mroe admirable than someone who is simply a good person?

I consider myself a very firm atheist, but unlike Cartese I'm not one to proselytize.

I am a profound believer that the Law of Evolution is a load of hokey. Yes, I have done my homework. I read “The Origin of Species” and many other books pertaining to the matter. I have studied up on several theories and laws and such about the creation of the universe and life, and still can only find that the only real viable source is God. Archaeology also helps in my beliefs, as we have found chariots and old Egyptian equipment like spears at the bottom of the Red Sea. We have found recurring evidence that the Walls of Jericho fell inwards at the time period of which the Bible tells. The Walls of Jericho falling outwards is a great enough feat, although it happened several times. Proof of the existence of Jesus and his followers, and a simple way of showing Christ’s teachings to be true (which I have sense lost) has led me to believe that there is simply no other way than God.

If you have done your home work you would have said it was the theory of evolution and not the law. If it's a law; its been proven.

I am curious as to why you think it is hokey. Creationists have continously said its been disproven and yet their arguments are routinely disproven. Evolution says nothing about the existence of God. To suggest the Bible answers the question of DNA, etc. is downright silly. Think about it. Go back 2000 years and start talking about DNA, thermal dynamics, etc. and people would think you were nuts or practicing magic.

The Bible at the time explained things in a way the people of the day could understand.

As to the Archeology claims, do state your references. Finding a series of chariots in Red Sea would have made the special interest news stories if not National Geographic. That is if they can prove why there were there. For all you know, it simply could have been a transport vessal that sunk. So sources please.

For that matter, why not state what you read in all your studies..... :wink:

We agree about the conforming-to-lifestyle thing. An example-of-Christ Christian would have no truck with any government or corporation, for instance, wouldn't condemn anyone for their actions, and would be completely pacifistic. Oh, and they wouldn't want to be involved with money in any way. Or priesthoods.

...dirty commies.

Proof of the existence of Jesus and his followers, and a simple way of showing Christ’s teachings to be true (which I have sense lost) has led me to believe that there is simply no other way than God.

What evidence of Jesus' existence? Have I missed something? :?

I also believe in God because it simply seems logical to me. If I die as a Christian, and God exists, I have nothing to worry about. If I die a Christian, and God doesn’t exist, I have nothing to worry about.

What if you die a Christian, but it turns out the gods that exist weren't the ones you believed in? Say, if the Greek or Hindu or Norse or Native American pantheons are "real"? Wouldn't that perhaps constitute something worth "worrying" about?

... Just curious.

Yes, I know that nothing I can say would make anybody on these forums, and possibly not in person, change to see Christ.

Glad you aren't setting yourself up for a dissapointment- or to be an annoying prostelyte.

Good luck on your journey.

WOOT! It has been some time since I have seen such wonderful arguments for and against Christianity. I must say I love a good debate, and I was very glad when Sniper called me up and asked for me to add some input. So, now I am going to have to sort through everyone's posts and make my comments where I feel that something needs to be said.

while i appreciate the mention... i'm hardly a hardcore atheist. i don't even consider myself an atheist. i'm an agnostic humanist with buddhist leanings, thank you very much.
i tend to take the "atheist" side in debates though, so i can see where you might be mistaken there.

i woudl like to point out a few things though, evolution is not a law, it is a theory. and a pretty solid one. in case you missed the show on tlc explaining how the whole parting of the red sea could have happened... there was a great earthquake in the mediterranian in that approximate time frame that would have caused a tida wave. withdrawing water before finally crashing into shore. thus drying up the sea, allowing people to cross, but crushing those who follow them with a wave of water.

also, of all the great people i admire, only one of them is christian. and i do not admire him because of it. i admire him because he is my dad. i've yet to meet a cruel atheist. even a cruel satanist, despite the slander about them. yet i've met a number of unnecessarily cruel, shallow, backstabbing christians.

First, I must say I love how you classify yourself. It is like saying that you are a Dutch chocolate cake with a dash of cinnamon flavoring. It is still a cake no matter what terms you add to the mix. Secondly, you are right that evolution is not a law, and technically you are right in stating that it is a theory. (I suggest for reference you check out http://www.creationism.com/ Go to Standard Creationist Arguments and Rebuttals, and then check out the Evolution is just a theory section. While the site has interesting statements, I could poke holes in it everyway six days to Sunday, but thats not why I am typing here today. I am simply using the site for a reference to my following statements.) While Evolutionists generally like to contend that evolution is a law or a fact, neither are right. It is truly a theory because it has not been proven. There is no mountain of evidence that has any credibility beyond hypothesis or conjecture. I could again poke holes in the THEORY of evolution all day long, but that would take too many pages. Instead, I will simply site the following reference sources for anyone to look over at their convenience. (Dismantling Evolution: Making the Case for Intelligent Design by Ralph Muncaster [got to give thanks to Sniper Country for giving me that one] and Darwin's Black Box by Dr. Michael J. Behe ) Thirdly, massive mediterranean earthquakes occuring simultaneously with a great chase occuring between a large group of Jewish people and the Pharoh is too far fetched to be logically believed by any rational human being. Granted, one-in-a-million and one-in-a-billion chance occurances actually happen fairly often when you consider the exponential number of things happening in the universe at any given moment, but when you narrow down the variables the odds of something with even one-in-a-thousand chances occuring is actually increadibly rare. That is where the Christian belief of divine intervention comes in. Lastly, I would like to note something about the Christian faith. Be careful where you apply the term Christian. Christianity is a faith and a walk of life. Catholicism is a religion. Christianity is too often used as a general term. A Christian is a person of good morals who tries to always be Christ-like. There are plenty of Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, and members of other religions that by the terms of the Christian faith will spend eternity in Hell. And, as far as the comment on never meeting a cruel Atheist, where have you been all of your life. I have met many Atheists who became such because they did not like the hypocracy and holier-than-thou attitude of many churches, and they were indeed good people, but to say that you have never met one Atheist or even one of those Satanists who had a cruel bent speaks of a very sheltered life.

Sorry... but it's not only the hypocrite Christians that give Christians a bad name. It's also those who think their new beliefs are the complete truth. Humans are always fallible. Even if they think they found God.

Good people don't preach down to others, they live a good life. And other people might actually be encouraged to follow their good example (or other people's good example).

You are right, humans are fallible and prone to make mistakes for it is human nature. I am not new to my faith, granted as a Christian I am a continually growing individual that will never achieve the pinnacle of my faith for that is impossible (That meaning that I will never be as Christ was because He was sinless and I will never be), but I do trust that my faith and my beliefs are the complete truth. That is what faith is. I am not completely in disagreement with this statement, but I believe it needs elaboration. I do not attempt to speak down to people or have an attitude that is holier-than-thou, although I do feel that I do rub off as such at times, and I agree that no man has the right to say to a man that he is a terrible person unless he too can claim having never done the same wrongs as the person he is speaking down to. I can say that a man is an unashamed murderer of babies and that he is a terribly evil person, because I myself have never murdered a baby. I cannot say that that person is a liar and a cheat and that he is a horrible man, because I cannot say that I have never lied or cheated.

but you don't have to be a christian to be a good person. why someone who is a good person and a christian beany mroe admirable than someone who is simply a good person?

You are right that a man who is a good person is not neccesarily a Christian, and that a good, Christian man is no more admirable than a good, Atheistic man or a good, Muslim man. They are all good people, but if you are a true unashamed Christian, you are a person who honestly believes that only you will be the one who will be going to spend eternity in Heaven. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians Chapter 2, Verses 8 and 9 (The particular Bible I used was NIV if it matters to anyone)

If you have done your home work you would have said it was the theory of evolution and not the law. If it's a law; its been proven.

I am curious as to why you think it is hokey. Creationists have continously said its been disproven and yet their arguments are routinely disproven. Evolution says nothing about the existence of God. To suggest the Bible answers the question of DNA, etc. is downright silly. Think about it. Go back 2000 years and start talking about DNA, thermal dynamics, etc. and people would think you were nuts or practicing magic.

The Bible at the time explained things in a way the people of the day could understand.

As to the Archeology claims, do state your references. Finding a series of chariots in Red Sea would have made the special interest news stories if not National Geographic. That is if they can prove why there were there. For all you know, it simply could have been a transport vessal that sunk. So sources please.

For that matter, why not state what you read in all your studies..... :wink:

Well, here we have the liberal college professor type. This is not a formal exam or essay. If you would care to make it so, we can continue this discussion in a more formal sense, but that would require a good deal of proper preparation on either side. Asking for specific sources from someone out of the blue in an informal discussion is impractical at best. If you are simply talking with an individual and then say,"Where are your sources? Where did you get that information?" The person is obviously not going to have every single source from every single thing he has learned in his lifetime. I for one cannot source every single fact I state in a given situation without at least some preparation. Oh yeah, as for your statement on the Bible answering questions in modern day terms, you are right that it did explain things in terms that the people of the times could understand, but let us also assume for the moment that the Bible was the writtern under the divine inspiration of an all-powerful creator being (The Lord, Jehova, Yahweh, etc). This all-powerful creator being has all knowledge. He is not on the same intellectual level as those who wrote the Bible, which he inspired (Also note that the majority of the Bible was written much further back than 2000 years ago, and that when I say He, I do not mean the specific masculine gender. It is just in appropriate to refer to God as IT. According to the Bible, God is non-gender because he is a spiritual being not a physical form lest he wishes it, but I digress into the much larger topic of the Trinity). Anyways, God, being all-knowing, would understand concepts such as DNA and thermodynamics, and would know far more about the subjucts than we would even those at the peak of knowledge on the subjects. It is not unreasonable to assume that a creator being would be able to forsee man's future learning of such things and be able to put hints to such in His divinely inspired texts. I am not saying that this is fact, but I am not discounting it altogether. One should keep their mind open. I will try, however, try to source as much as I can on this rather hurriedly put together post.

We agree about the conforming-to-lifestyle thing. An example-of-Christ Christian would have no truck with any government or corporation, for instance, wouldn't condemn anyone for their actions, and would be completely pacifistic. Oh, and they wouldn't want to be involved with money in any way. Or priesthoods.

...dirty commies.

Actually, I recall a particular bit of text in the Bible in which Jesus grows angry and cleans out the temple of the people who were doing their business in God's holy place. There were also many verses in the New Testament of the Bible in which Jesus condemns the pharisees for their hypocritical actions. Not to mention that there is no mention of Jesus saying that a person should have no involvment with money, only that people should not be involved in the trappings of money and wealth. Money is not the root of all evil. The Bible states that the love of money is the root of all evil.

[Source verses: Mark: Chapter 11, Verses 12-19/ Matthew: Chapter 15, Verses 1-20]


What evidence of Jesus' existence? Have I missed something? :?

What if you die a Christian, but it turns out the gods that exist weren't the ones you believed in? Say, if the Greek or Hindu or Norse or Native American pantheons are "real"? Wouldn't that perhaps constitute something worth "worrying" about?

... Just curious.

Glad you aren't setting yourself up for a dissapointment- or to be an annoying prostelyte.

Good luck on your journey.

Ah, last one. Ok, let us assume that there are other gods that exist. According to the Hindu faith, one would simply be reincarnated and keep trying again until they got it right, and because they lived a good, Christian life they would not have so bad of a next life. According to the Norse beliefs, if I am not mistaken, one's soul would go to whichever of the nine worlds connected to Yggdrasil, the world tree, that one's walk in life corresponded to. I am a bit rusty on the subjuct, but if the person who died, was killed in glorious battle, then they would, reguardless go to Asguard without account to what gods or God they may have honored. As for as the Greek pantheon goes, then a person would go to the (fields whose name I cannot remember at this time, but can find if anyone wishes to pursue the subject) if they were a good person, reliving the same day over and over ignorant of any badness or discomfort, or they would go to Tatarus if they were mostly evil, or if they prefered to have memory of their life and got it okayed with Hades. Although, being a Christian, I do not worry about any of these possibilities because of my complete uncompromising faith.

[Source material: Any book one can find on mythology, although, I gained my information because I was required to do a term paper for school in relation to early pagan religions, myths, and practices of the Norse and Greek cultures and their relation to the philology of the early English language (If anyone wishes to know how the two relate just ask)]

Ok, well, I am done now. If anyone has any other comments they wish to make to my....comments. Do so, please. I do love a good debate.

I am a fellow Baptist Christian, and as I write this, see me as what I have seen in this world.

Allow my Observations through an Open-Mind be explained in the way that Religion comes in many styles. I believe in Lord God Almighty, my Creator, in Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior. Both are one, yet both are not. Lord Jesus Christ sits at the Right Hand of Lord God Almighty, thus is what I have heard AS the Truth.

Athiests do not like to believe in something Over them, thus they go their own way. I respect this, since I know the feeling from my past through Middle School when I was bullied, and in High School was fed up with idiots Controling my Life, hence I found strength to begin fixing myself with Religion through Lord Jesus Christ, already being saved yet so far away at the time.

Athiests can do as they please, for it is THEIR choice. Hard times for Christians was already warned in The Bible of the King James Version, the True Bible. Thus I have heard, read, and understood this and shall not bring forth my past dislikes towards Athiests, only respect them as my Fellow Man, if not love them as Brothers and/or Sisters through Lord Jesus Christ.

They choose their path, I choose mine. I have chosen my Path, they have chosen theirs. It is not up to me to turn them around, it is up to Lord God Almighty to bring forth things to get their attention, Lord Jesus Christ waiting to be seen.

Allow me to say, with great respect, that Athiests are a Good People, and most do NOT insult other people. Thus the only thing I see wrong, in MY view with respect to an Open-Minded Observation, is their non-belief in what I see as the Word of God, and Lord God Almighty, The Creator, and Lord Jesus Christ, The Savior, as the only lackness.

Yes, there are those Athiests that go all out, but most are respectful. Hence, even if they were all disprespectful, I would not, even if I did but would make SURE not for long as I want to obey Lord God's Word, hate them, whatsoever, as they are Creations, as I am, of Lord God Almighty.

May Lord God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ Bless You.

i woudl like to point out a few things though, evolution is not a law, it is a theory. and a pretty solid one. in case you missed the show on tlc explaining how the whole parting of the red sea could have happened... there was a great earthquake in the mediterranian in that approximate time frame that would have caused a tida wave. withdrawing water before finally crashing into shore. thus drying up the sea, allowing people to cross, but crushing those who follow them with a wave of water.


just got to comment on the drying up the sea line...

actually removing the water via a tidal wave would not DRY up the sea floor, it would simple remove the water.

The biblical account of the story says that the floor was actually dry, and thus the people were able to walk across. By your suggestion of removing the water, the floor would still be wet, and most like be deep with "muck' therefore it would not be suitable for the people to walk across.

Just wanted to point that out...

First off, I would like to give a brief background: I am 16, my father is Catholic and my mother is protestant. We don't go to church becasue neither one of them feels comfotable going to the other's denomination.

I think that to truly have uncompramiseable faith, such as Omni and Sniper speak of, must be one of the greatest things in your life. I (imagine) that it gives you a pillar to which you can always fall back onto--you never have to worry about being alone or lost, because you will always have your undying faith. However, I must sadely admit that I have not ever reached that state of faith: I cannot reasonably justify the existence of God, and do not attend church enough to "feel the vibes" of other religious people.

I therefore declare myself an agnostic, or even an athiest, becasue I do not believe in God, and I cannot lie to myself about what I believe in.

The point of this post is to offer my explination for the fierce competative attitude that athiests express towords devout religious types; the questioning of other's faith. I think it is because everyone recognizes the uncomrpomising faith that I spoke of as a great thing, and the athiests realize that they cannot have it. It is almost jealousy. The athiests are envious that they will never have that faith, and try to convince themselves by arguing with others that God cannot possibly exist; justifying the God-less existence that they have.

We agree about the conforming-to-lifestyle thing. An example-of-Christ Christian would have no truck with any government or corporation, for instance, wouldn't condemn anyone for their actions, and would be completely pacifistic. Oh, and they wouldn't want to be involved with money in any way. Or priesthoods.

...dirty commies.

This sounds like my group.

http://www.thirdway.com/menno/bb/

It is the so-called Xtians that drove me from faith. I saw the lies, the basic lack of honesty. Christians, (or any religious group) Don't just say the words, live the life.

If your faith demands something of you, then you should give it. No remorse, no questions. That is the very Nature of faith.

And all fail somewhere. that is why I have no faith.

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

http://www.angelfire.com/tx6/jimp/images/jim1004a.jpg
Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

What a great thread! I'm glad to see that others are waking up and realizing that we as Christians are missing the mark...that we really need to live this life that we preach. It not just about going to church on Sunday, and maybe Wednesday...it is about having a relationship with the Holies of Holies, the Alpha and Omega, the Creator. I can only tell you from my own life that the more you get to know Him, the better it is....

I would just like to say to Sniper this is a great thread...although I said that already and to Omni Conglomerates....I don't think I could have said ti better myself....very nicely done!

It is the so-called Xtians that drove me from faith. I saw the lies, the basic lack of honesty. Christians, (or any religious group) Don't just say the words, live the life.

If your faith demands something of you, then you should give it. No remorse, no questions. That is the very Nature of faith.

And all fail somewhere. that is why I have no faith.


That first and last sentence sounds as if you've allowed people to have power over you. I sincerely hope that isn't true. :(

At any rate, the goal of Christianity is to follow Jesus and to be as Christ-like as possible. I do agree that if a person is going to call himself/herself a Christian, then they should "walk the walk". Of course it's unrealistic to think that a Christian will never sin (as humans we all make mistakes), but from my own personal experience, I am more at peace and don't have much temptation to sin as I did when I wasn't strong spiritually.

It is the so-called Xtians that drove me from faith. I saw the lies, the basic lack of honesty. Christians, (or any religious group) Don't just say the words, live the life.

If your faith demands something of you, then you should give it. No remorse, no questions. That is the very Nature of faith.

And all fail somewhere. that is why I have no faith.

http://www.magickalshadow.com/daca/

http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/dadv/index.html

http://www.angelfire.com/tx6/jimp/images/jim1004a.jpg
Ave Satanis!
Rege Satanis!
Hail Satan!

Big Jim P!
SC!

Just a quick question for you..

You said you saw the lies, what lies are you speaking of?

I am a fellow Baptist Christian, and as I write this, see me as what I have seen in this world.

Allow my Observations through an Open-Mind be explained in the way that Religion comes in many styles. I believe in Lord God Almighty, my Creator, in Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior. Both are one, yet both are not. Lord Jesus Christ sits at the Right Hand of Lord God Almighty, thus is what I have heard AS the Truth.

Athiests do not like to believe in something Over them, thus they go their own way. I respect this, since I know the feeling from my past through Middle School when I was bullied, and in High School was fed up with idiots Controling my Life, hence I found strength to begin fixing myself with Religion through Lord Jesus Christ, already being saved yet so far away at the time.

Athiests can do as they please, for it is THEIR choice. Hard times for Christians was already warned in The Bible of the King James Version, the True Bible. Thus I have heard, read, and understood this and shall not bring forth my past dislikes towards Athiests, only respect them as my Fellow Man, if not love them as Brothers and/or Sisters through Lord Jesus Christ.

They choose their path, I choose mine. I have chosen my Path, they have chosen theirs. It is not up to me to turn them around, it is up to Lord God Almighty to bring forth things to get their attention, Lord Jesus Christ waiting to be seen.

Allow me to say, with great respect, that Athiests are a Good People, and most do NOT insult other people. Thus the only thing I see wrong, in MY view with respect to an Open-Minded Observation, is their non-belief in what I see as the Word of God, and Lord God Almighty, The Creator, and Lord Jesus Christ, The Savior, as the only lackness.

Yes, there are those Athiests that go all out, but most are respectful. Hence, even if they were all disprespectful, I would not, even if I did but would make SURE not for long as I want to obey Lord God's Word, hate them, whatsoever, as they are Creations, as I am, of Lord God Almighty.

May Lord God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ Bless You.

at the risk of sound like a jerk, why is it you feel the KJV Bible is the "true Bible" but better still, why do you feel the need to say it?

I think he was reffering to quite a lot of people finding it as the best translation, rather than true as in the others were false.

This is quite is debate .................But I must admit to a bit of confusion:
all this talk of pillars of faith makes me a bit uneasy; pardon me but doesn't the New Testament have Jesus claim that faith the size of a mustard seed is all one need to move mountains?

I think the reason why many christians don't come off very well is that their faith is out of context with the rest of their life and they are seeking an enlightening experience through the text of an old book or old words from an old priest . . . it seems that they need to have experiences of their own with which to concretize their ideals.

Oh and by the way, the talk of a Great Commission seems odd - I thought that the commission of christians was to walk with Jesus, humbly and lovingly. I am a Roman Catholic, if you're wondering. As to who goes where after life -> I'm a firm believer of Pascal's Gambit - living a good life by the most common precepts of humanity, aka human rights standards in modern parlance, is good enough; for if there are God(s) they will appreciate it.

And I'm spent!

PS - To be true to my region - Alcohol is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy - Ben Franklin said something like that.

This is quite is debate .................But I must admit to a bit of confusion:
all this talk of pillars of faith makes me a bit uneasy; pardon me but doesn't the New Testament have Jesus claim that faith the size of a mustard seed is all one need to move mountains?

I think the reason why many christians don't come off very well is that their faith is out of context with the rest of their life and they are seeking an enlightening experience through the text of an old book or old words from an old priest . . . it seems that they need to have experiences of their own with which to concretize their ideals.

Oh and by the way, the talk of a Great Commission seems odd - I thought that the commission of christians was to walk with Jesus, humbly and lovingly. I am a Roman Catholic, if you're wondering. As to who goes where after life -> I'm a firm believer of Pascal's Gambit - living a good life by the most common precepts of humanity, aka human rights standards in modern parlance, is good enough; for if there are God(s) they will appreciate it.

And I'm spent!

PS - To be true to my region - Alcohol is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy - Ben Franklin said something like that.

Well, I must say that is an...interesting viewpoint. You have read the Bible haven't you? I realize that a good number of members of the Roman Catholic religion don't read their Bibles, and I think that is part of the problem. The New Testament gives us The Great Commission."Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned," Mark Chapter 16, Verses 15-16. Also, you take the faith the size of a mustard seed a bit out of context. That doesn't mean that you only need a little faith. That means that it only takes a little faith to do a lot. But, you shouldn't just have only a little faith, you should expand on it, you should rely on it, and you should be, pardon the term, fanatical about it. That is what faith is, and what it should be for a person of Christian faith. And, if you are a Christian then you must believe in the Bible as the whole truth. There is no acceptance of being just good enough. If you are a true Roman Catholic and place faith in the Bible you must accept that good works and good works alone are not enough. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ," Romans Chapter 3, Verses 23-24. One last thing, the Bible is not an old book or old words from an old priest. It is a very relevant text if you actually sit down and read it earnestly. It has been my experience that most of the people who have issues with the Bible have not actually read it any any great detail. Maybe I am wrong, maybe you have read the Bible in depth, and maybe that is exactly what you gleaned from it, but somehow I doubt that.

Wow, very well said!

while i have been agnostic all my life simply because it seems the best theory to me, i will admit that Christians are the ones who most often renew the strength of my convictions. the hypocricy is a big part of this, but also the very nature of Christian belief and worship...just be existing they remind me of all the reasons why agnosticism is a more difficult but also more worthy path for life.

while i have been agnostic all my life simply because it seems the best theory to me, i will admit that Christians are the ones who most often renew the strength of my convictions. the hypocricy is a big part of this, but also the very nature of Christian belief and worship...just be existing they remind me of all the reasons why agnosticism is a more difficult but also more worthy path for life.

Hmm....this is another very interesting viewpoint. You have been an agnostic all of your life? Your parents were agnostic then, or have you simply never been an avid attendee of church? I must admit Agnosticism has always been a mystery to me. Most of the people I have met, who claimed to be Agnostic, claimed such simply because they didn't want to ponder the mysteries of religion, but I have always wanted to hear the views of a true Agnostic. I agree that it must be hard to be on the "path" of Agnosticism, but I wonder how a path in which the person lives with the belief that we simply cannot know whether there is a God or not is the more worthy one. Perhaps I do not understand all of the nuances of Agnosticism, but I am always looking to learn more about others' beliefs even if the may seem opposed to mine. Tell me more that I might understand, and so that through debate and discussion we can learn more and grow. It may sound like a sappy suggestion, but I know that I for one jump at the chance to explain and defend my religious beliefs.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, again. Boosehoundia, I am not yet through with you. Alcohol is not proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Alcohol is something that is best used only to sterilize wounds, because it can lead to no other good. Wine was only consumed in the Bible because, in that day and age, most of the water was unfit for man to drink. Have you ever sipped on some Mexican water? That is similar to the situation back then, plus or minus to the enth degree. Wine back then was also of a very low alcohol content. It would take the consumption of a couple of whole bottles of wine for a man to become drunk. Remember this Boosehoundia, Jesus suffering and dying on the cross is proof of God's love. Alcohol is not. If you continue to profess a Christian faith you must see this, otherwise you will become like one of the many other "Christian" hypocrits.

Lastly, I must restate that the term Christian is thrown around too loosely. A Roman Catholic is not neccasarily a Christian. A Southern Baptist is not neccesarily a Christian. A person who never attends his church, nor goes to any Christian service is not neccesarily a non-Christian. Use the term Christian wisely. You wouldn't want a person throwing around the terms liberal, and conservative around would you if the person(s) being spoken to did not fit into that category, and you did. It just the same hurts those of us who are Christian to hear of a person who has no Christian faith within him whatsoever being called a Christian. We don't enjoy being associated with people who are not of Christian mindset. Our faith does not include those who simply attend church to please their parents, or those who go to a Christian seminar just to get the T-shirt. Christian means Christ-like. It means you strive to be like Christ. None are perfect Christians all the time, but to be a Christian you still must try.

I'm a Catholic, not particularly evangical, although I'll defend my religion when it comes under attack from Cartese and, on the other side, people from Bob Jones university.

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while i have been agnostic all my life simply because it seems the best theory to me, i will admit that Christians are the ones who most often renew the strength of my convictions. the hypocricy is a big part of this, but also the very nature of Christian belief and worship...just be existing they remind me of all the reasons why agnosticism is a more difficult but also more worthy path for life.

Hmm....this is another very interesting viewpoint. You have been an agnostic all of your life? Your parents were agnostic then, or have you simply never been an avid attendee of church?


my mother is Unitarian and my father is Jewish (though currently he isn't observant). while growing up i also lived with a Lutheran family for several years, and i attended a predominantly Jewish school district. i have attended three different Christian denomination churches, two different Unitarian ones, and two temples (Jewish) for varying lengths of time.

however, i have never been able to experience any form of "faith" or religious experience that convinced me to believe in one sect or another. i have never had reason to subscribe to superstitions of any kind, so i haven't done so...i've never seen why i should believe in Jesus but not Allah, Buddha but not Vishnu, God but not The Invisible Pink Unicorn In The Sky.


I must admit Agnosticism has always been a mystery to me. Most of the people I have met, who claimed to be Agnostic, claimed such simply because they didn't want to ponder the mysteries of religion,


i certainly am not one of those; i ponder religion a great deal, and enjoy doing so.


I agree that it must be hard to be on the "path" of Agnosticism, but I wonder how a path in which the person lives with the belief that we simply cannot know whether there is a God or not is the more worthy one.


since the truth is that we cannot know if there is a God or not, and since i believe truth is more worthy than self-deception, that is how i reach the conclusion that agnosticism is a more worthy path for me than superstition or atheism.


Perhaps I do not understand all of the nuances of Agnosticism, but I am always looking to learn more about others' beliefs even if the may seem opposed to mine. Tell me more that I might understand, and so that through debate and discussion we can learn more and grow. It may sound like a sappy suggestion, but I know that I for one jump at the chance to explain and defend my religious beliefs.


it's very unusual and interesting to meet a person with genuine interest in agnosticism...i generally receive only disgust from atheists (for being "to soft") and pious patronizing from the religious. i don't know how much i can tell you about agnosticism in general, since there really isn't an in general to speak of; agnosticism varies from person to person, but i can certainly tell you about my take on things. just let me know if there are specific areas of interest you would like to chat about.

I am a fellow Baptist Christian, and as I write this, see me as what I have seen in this world.

Allow my Observations through an Open-Mind be explained in the way that Religion comes in many styles. I believe in Lord God Almighty, my Creator, in Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior. Both are one, yet both are not. Lord Jesus Christ sits at the Right Hand of Lord God Almighty, thus is what I have heard AS the Truth.

Athiests do not like to believe in something Over them, thus they go their own way. I respect this, since I know the feeling from my past through Middle School when I was bullied, and in High School was fed up with idiots Controling my Life, hence I found strength to begin fixing myself with Religion through Lord Jesus Christ, already being saved yet so far away at the time.

Athiests can do as they please, for it is THEIR choice. Hard times for Christians was already warned in The Bible of the King James Version, the True Bible. Thus I have heard, read, and understood this and shall not bring forth my past dislikes towards Athiests, only respect them as my Fellow Man, if not love them as Brothers and/or Sisters through Lord Jesus Christ.

They choose their path, I choose mine. I have chosen my Path, they have chosen theirs. It is not up to me to turn them around, it is up to Lord God Almighty to bring forth things to get their attention, Lord Jesus Christ waiting to be seen.

Allow me to say, with great respect, that Athiests are a Good People, and most do NOT insult other people. Thus the only thing I see wrong, in MY view with respect to an Open-Minded Observation, is their non-belief in what I see as the Word of God, and Lord God Almighty, The Creator, and Lord Jesus Christ, The Savior, as the only lackness.

Yes, there are those Athiests that go all out, but most are respectful. Hence, even if they were all disprespectful, I would not, even if I did but would make SURE not for long as I want to obey Lord God's Word, hate them, whatsoever, as they are Creations, as I am, of Lord God Almighty.

May Lord God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ Bless You.
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I am a fellow Baptist Christian, and as I write this, see me as what I have seen in this world.

Allow my Observations through an Open-Mind be explained in the way that Religion comes in many styles. I believe in Lord God Almighty, my Creator, in Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior. Both are one, yet both are not. Lord Jesus Christ sits at the Right Hand of Lord God Almighty, thus is what I have heard AS the Truth.

Athiests do not like to believe in something Over them, thus they go their own way. I respect this, since I know the feeling from my past through Middle School when I was bullied, and in High School was fed up with idiots Controling my Life, hence I found strength to begin fixing myself with Religion through Lord Jesus Christ, already being saved yet so far away at the time.

Athiests can do as they please, for it is THEIR choice. Hard times for Christians was already warned in The Bible of the King James Version, the True Bible. Thus I have heard, read, and understood this and shall not bring forth my past dislikes towards Athiests, only respect them as my Fellow Man, if not love them as Brothers and/or Sisters through Lord Jesus Christ.

They choose their path, I choose mine. I have chosen my Path, they have chosen theirs. It is not up to me to turn them around, it is up to Lord God Almighty to bring forth things to get their attention, Lord Jesus Christ waiting to be seen.

Allow me to say, with great respect, that Athiests are a Good People, and most do NOT insult other people. Thus the only thing I see wrong, in MY view with respect to an Open-Minded Observation, is their non-belief in what I see as the Word of God, and Lord God Almighty, The Creator, and Lord Jesus Christ, The Savior, as the only lackness.

Yes, there are those Athiests that go all out, but most are respectful. Hence, even if they were all disprespectful, I would not, even if I did but would make SURE not for long as I want to obey Lord God's Word, hate them, whatsoever, as they are Creations, as I am, of Lord God Almighty.

May Lord God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ Bless You

I am a fellow Baptist Christian, and as I write this, see me as what I have seen in this world.

Allow my Observations through an Open-Mind be explained in the way that Religion comes in many styles. I believe in Lord God Almighty, my Creator, in Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior. Both are one, yet both are not. Lord Jesus Christ sits at the Right Hand of Lord God Almighty, thus is what I have heard AS the Truth.

Athiests do not like to believe in something Over them, thus they go their own way. I respect this, since I know the feeling from my past through Middle School when I was bullied, and in High School was fed up with idiots Controling my Life, hence I found strength to begin fixing myself with Religion through Lord Jesus Christ, already being saved yet so far away at the time.

Athiests can do as they please, for it is THEIR choice. Hard times for Christians was already warned in The Bible of the King James Version, the True Bible. Thus I have heard, read, and understood this and shall not bring forth my past dislikes towards Athiests, only respect them as my Fellow Man, if not love them as Brothers and/or Sisters through Lord Jesus Christ.

They choose their path, I choose mine. I have chosen my Path, they have chosen theirs. It is not up to me to turn them around, it is up to Lord God Almighty to bring forth things to get their attention, Lord Jesus Christ waiting to be seen.

Allow me to say, with great respect, that Athiests are a Good People, and most do NOT insult other people. Thus the only thing I see wrong, in MY view with respect to an Open-Minded Observation, is their non-belief in what I see as the Word of God, and Lord God Almighty, The Creator, and Lord Jesus Christ, The Savior, as the only lackness.

Yes, there are those Athiests that go all out, but most are respectful. Hence, even if they were all disprespectful, I would not, even if I did but would make SURE not for long as I want to obey Lord God's Word, hate them, whatsoever, as they are Creations, as I am, of Lord God Almighty.

May Lord God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ Bless You

Holy.......I did NOT meanm to do that....... :shock:

Omni Conglomerates wrote:
Alcohol is not proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Alcohol is something that is best used only to sterilize wounds, because it can lead to no other good. Wine was only consumed in the Bible because, in that day and age, most of the water was unfit for man to drink. Have you ever sipped on some Mexican water? That is similar to the situation back then, plus or minus to the enth degree. Wine back then was also of a very low alcohol content. It would take the consumption of a couple of whole bottles of wine for a man to become drunk. Remember this Boosehoundia, Jesus suffering and dying on the cross is proof of God's love. Alcohol is not. If you continue to profess a Christian faith you must see this, otherwise you will become like one of the many other "Christian" hypocrits.

Right. So, Thomas Aquinas was a Christian hypocrite? :? "Drink to the point of hilarity." he said. True, Alcohol has the potential to cause great destruction, if used improperly. In a health context, ingesting small amounts of alcohol, maybe three servings of beer or wine a week, benifits the heart and circulation greatly. I can't cite my source on that one, but it was in a couple of medical journals a few years ago.
Alcohol may not be proof of God's love, but it is a gift from the divine. But like many of his gifts, such as: procreation, wisdom, and faith, it can be misused to destructive ends. It is only the abuse of this divine gift is what causes many to see it as evil. Abuse of this gift is evil. The proper use, be it for sterilization of wounds, or with wine to be drunk slowly with a meal, or other non-harmful and responsible contexts, is the enjoyment of a devine gift.

I'm not sure how it is for many, but my own beliefs are that everything one finds on this planet somehow comes from the work of God. It is the misuse of these things that can create destruction and pain.

Also, on Agnosticism,
As a Christian who went through a period of doubt, partially due to experience with hypocrites, partially due to hardships from a rough adolescence, I can understand the path you have taken. I think that with agnosticism, true agnosticism, comes a code of honor that should be followed. This code should be determined by the person who writes it, but the writ of the code should be how to live a helpful life. Much like Buddism would propose. Many agnostics complain about Christian hypocrites. These are 'Christians' who have cast aside the code of honor written for them in their scripture. Have agnostics who have no code of their own to follow committed the same fallacy?

Feel free to pick this thing apart.

Lastly, I must restate that the term Christian is thrown around too loosely. A Roman Catholic is not neccasarily a Christian. A Southern Baptist is not neccesarily a Christian. A person who never attends his church, nor goes to any Christian service is not neccesarily a non-Christian. Use the term Christian wisely. You wouldn't want a person throwing around the terms liberal, and conservative around would you if the person(s) being spoken to did not fit into that category, and you did. It just the same hurts those of us who are Christian to hear of a person who has no Christian faith within him whatsoever being called a Christian. We don't enjoy being associated with people who are not of Christian mindset. Our faith does not include those who simply attend church to please their parents, or those who go to a Christian seminar just to get the T-shirt. Christian means Christ-like. It means you strive to be like Christ. None are perfect Christians all the time, but to be a Christian you still must try.

Amen to that! 8)

Firstly Karnon, I must say that we likely have a divergence of opinions. If Thomas Aquinas advocated the drinking of alcohol to the point of drunkeness, then yes he was guilty of hypocricy. I personally have only read a little about Thoman Aquinas. I know he was a Roman Catholic philosopher and theologian from Italy. I don't know much else about the man aside from the fact that he is apparently a Catholic saint. That doesn't make him a sinless man however. I am sure that he must have done great good to be declared a saint, but that still doesn't mean that he never made a mistake. It is my belief that man should never imbibe alcohol for any purpose. I do not support social drinking and do not care that it may benifit the heart. There are plenty of other things that do that as well. I don't believe that the act of drinking is in itself a sin, but drinking to the point of drunkeness certainly is. I do not believe that a person should should do something that may lead him down the road to sin, and thusly I denouce drinking for any reason. Call it part of my "code of honor", but I do not see alcohol as something sent from God for us to enjoy. I don't see the enjoyment in it anyways. I have seen many members of my class on monday morning (a few who even attend my church) that talk to each other about what they did on the weekend. They usually say that they had a great time at some party and that they got increadibly drunk. I ask them what they did and they say that they can't remember. Where is the fun? How does one know that they didn't just go out and hump goats all evening and forgot about it after they passed out in a puddle of their own vomit? Where is the fun? I am sure a person could only drink a little, but I see it as being much simpler to not start drinking at all.

It may also be appropriate to note at this point that I am not a Roman Catholic. I as of this moment profess the Southern Baptist religion, because it is most in accord with my own views. What is the difference between a Southern Baptist and a Baptist you might ask? Not a thing really, with the exception of the fact that the Southern Baptists churches belong to an organization called the Southern Baptist Convention which basically is there to help organize the churches and organize church activities (missions and the like). The other difference is that most Southern Baptists are far more conservative than their Baptist cousins. In short there is no real difference in doctrine between the two churches. Now, back to another point I wish to make. I do not believe that a Christian must subscribe to any particular church of the Christian faith. I am simply not a Roman Catholic becaue I do not agree with all of the doctrines of the Catholic church. I don't agree with prayer to saints because I consider it idol worship. I think that one should pray to God and God only. There are many other doctrines of the Catholic church that I disagree with that make me wary of being a member of their particular piece of the pie that is the Christian faith, but that I will not go into because that is not a debate I wish to start at this juncture.

Now to address the statements made by Bottle. I would like to continue this discussion about your belief in Agnosticism and exactly what being an Agnostic means. I admit I am in the dark about the path. Perhaps I make it out to be more than it is. Perhaps it is simple but I would like to know more. I always jump at the chance to learn about something that I have not have little knowledge of, and Agnosticism is just one of those things that seems to have been skipped over when I was last researching other religions. To tell the truth, I don't really understand much of it at all. You believe you can't know. You believe that there may be a God or gods, or there may not be. You believe that the best option is to just lead a good life by most standards, and that should cover you in either case. Am I correct, or am I off base? Anyways, to talk to me more just contact me at TheGreatSzot@hotmail.com.

Ok, now I have to go. I have to go, and I have to get ready for a nice 8 hour session of D&D tomorrow. Add any questions, comments, or inflammatory statements you please.

it's very unusual and interesting to meet a person with genuine interest in agnosticism...i generally receive only disgust from atheists (for being "to soft") and pious patronizing from the religious.

I actually admire agnostics very much. It takes courage to admit that you don't know.

it's very unusual and interesting to meet a person with genuine interest in agnosticism...i generally receive only disgust from atheists (for being "to soft") and pious patronizing from the religious.

My feelings on this matter (and many others) can generally be summed up by this quote:

“It is easy to be tolerant when you do not care.”- Clement F. Rogers

Amen to that.

(Incidentally, I generally characterize myself as a spiritual agnostic, who operates from within the Jewish tradition. I try to keep an open mind, but there are certain basic beliefs that I do have- particularly regarding Jesus and what he wasn't. And, of course, I always operate from the first premise of "and God might not exist, anyway.")

An amazing thread sniper, I've read about half of it so far, just about to head off to a Good Friday service so I'll read the rest later on but I just want to say thank you for being so honest, it's so refreshing.

Up until last November I was an agnostic/atheist, I tried to think about God for a while but just couldn't get my head around it, so I chose not to think about it. Then suddenly God spoke out to me offering his salvation - an offer I just couldn't turn down, suddenly I felt this amazing presence around me, I broke down in tears and knew that I had to accept Jesus Christ into my life. I realise that I still mess up all the time, that every day I sin again and that I am undeserving of God's grace but over these past few months my life has been totally transformed. God is so good! :)

My parents went to church up until I was about 6 but then they said they found so much hypocrisy that they ended up drifting away from it and neglecting their faith. Since I've become a Christian my Dad has started coming to church with me, which is so great, Mum doesn't feel ready to and I'm not going to push it, I just hope to set a good example to them, to be a beacon of light. As for my brother he's an ardent Atheist, I've spoken to him a few times about my faith and he accepts it and puts up with it but it's tough talking to him about it, especially as we have always been really close. But I just hold on to the fact that the Lord has a plan for us all, that he knows when the time is right and I'm sure he's working in my brother's heart right now!

They usually say that they had a great time at some party and that they got increadibly drunk. I ask them what they did and they say that they can't remember. Where is the fun? How does one know that they didn't just go out and hump g0at all evening and forgot about it after they passed out in a puddle of their own vomit? Where is the fun?


The level of drunkenness you cite your classmates as having is far past the Aquinian point of "hilarity" I would go so far as to say that hilarity is the exact point where one begins to feel the effect of the alcohol, but the alcohol has not yet begun to effect judgement. Any further and the "hilarity" of the moment would be lost.

There is an ancient saying, one that prehaps predates Christianity, "In Vino Veritas," in Wine, the Truth. This could mean that one's true nature is seen through the use of alcohol. Now Thomas Hobbes would argue that sinful behavior committed under the influence of alcohol would be the man returning to his "state of nature." Many Christians would argue that this is a return to the state of Adam. If we can return to the state of Adam, then what good did Baptism do for us? A person under the influence of Alcohol is like a person under the influence of hypnosis. If a principle is held deeply in their morals, they will not violate it under the influence of anything.

Still, it is unfortunate when someone has lost control and gone beyond "hilarity" when drinking.

And as for the whole Catholicism prayer to saints thing. From my understanding of it--and I'll need to check with some Theologian friends and do another post later-- Catholics are not suposed to pray to saints--that would be idolatry--but pray for the saints to pray for them. Now, this may not sound like much of a difference, but when one thinks about it, Christianity believes in the immortality of the soul, so technically all the Christians who have died still live in union with God in heaven. So, by asking those who have died to pray for the same thing we pray for is like asking one's still living friends to pray for the same thing. And with prayer, nobody ever said quantity and volume didn't hurt.

As it is, Catholicism is a complex, and therefore often perplexing branch of Christianity, many Catholics don't even understand it fully, and that is why it can be easily corrupted and misused.

In any event, this is a great thread, and I hope everyone had a very Happy and Blessed Easter, and I look foreward to more discussion with you all soon.