NationStates Jolt Archive

Think about it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Still, people say it's wrong, even though they're people out there killing and maiming and being all icky, they're focused on these people. People say it's unnatrual, but don't you see animals doing "the nasty?" They say their unions aren't true due to "pure love," but what about Britney Spears' five-minute wedding wing-ding fiasco?

Think about it. Talk to me people.

The bible followers themselves, apparently.


-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg

You're right, KK.
Some people gotta hate, apparently.
If not gays/lesbians, (apparently people don't have as much trouble hating lesbians...no penis/anal insertion? Guys get off on watching 2 girls, not 2 guys??), then it would be different races, different sexes, different countries/states/provinces/cities, different religions, etc., etc...
Some people gotta hate/feel superior to someone to feel better about themselves.
*sigh*
:? :(

The real question is why people who participate in BDSM are targetted far less often.


-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg

The real question is why people who participate in BDSM are targetted far less often.


-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg
Why's that?

What makes gayness wrong? Can they pass on this trait when they breed?

Why's that?

I was asking why, myself.


-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg

back and bumpin...

TGIF! :D

I think that homosexuality is widely considered wrong because it does seem "unnatural" to many. It can be very hard to accept something that you're not farmiliar with, or that is a drastic minority. One way many people describe republicanism is "Republicans don't like change". This would apply to sexual orientation as well. Many think that a good family is a traditional family, which requires a heterosexual marriage.

Kudos to Katholik Kingdom for starting this thread. That is one of my big questions, what reason does an atheist have to be against gay marriage? The the problem with this is the whole "unnatural" angle has been proven incorrect repeatedly. Numerous examples of homosexuallity appearing in wildlife is proof that it is natural. Links will be made available upon request.

Practicality, you can't propogate.

I think it's the bible-thumpers being full of themselves which makes homosexuality wrong.

Think about it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Still, people say it's wrong, even though they're people out there killing and maiming and being all icky, they're focused on these people. People say it's unnatrual, but don't you see animals doing "the nasty?" They say their unions aren't true due to "pure love," but what about Britney Spears' five-minute wedding wing-ding fiasco?

Think about it. Talk to me people.

You're comparing WILD ANIMALS to human beings, my friend. They're two different subjects.

You're talking about celebrities, who most USUALLY have degraded morals.

Nothing really makes it wrong. Unfortunately, when a minority differs from the majority, well, then everyone thinks the minority is wrong. It doesn't matter what the minority is, they'll always be in the wrong in society.

There are things far stranger than homosexuality. It is foolish to hate homosexuals.

-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg

oh, it'd be bad to hate homosexuals. They're human beings with wrong actions. It's the action I detest.

Barring Biblical realted issues,

The Human race was designed by the random hand of evolution to be a two gendered species, now this is so as to perpetuate the species and keep us here, well, Homosexuals cannot reproduce and add nothing to the gene pool or to the population therefore they are biologically wrong,

Personally I dont have any opinion one way or the other, so long as they respect my rights not be gay.

Loop

Think about it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Still, people say it's wrong, even though they're people out there killing and maiming and being all icky, they're focused on these people. People say it's unnatrual, but don't you see animals doing "the nasty?" They say their unions aren't true due to "pure love," but what about Britney Spears' five-minute wedding wing-ding fiasco?

Think about it. Talk to me people.

You're comparing WILD ANIMALS to human beings, my friend. They're two different subjects.

You're talking about celebrities, who most USUALLY have degraded morals.

Not when you're on the topic of whether homosexuality is natural or not. Wild animals are nature. Some wild animals are gay. Therefore, it is natural.

So let's get an amendment to the US Constitution that prevents morally degenerate celebrities from getting married.

I don't hate homosexuals, I just don't like them...

If is up to me, everyone can do whatever they want....as long as it doesn't affect me...

Barring Biblical realted issues,

The Human race was designed by the random hand of evolution to be a two gendered species, now this is so as to perpetuate the species and keep us here, well, Homosexuals cannot reproduce and add nothing to the gene pool or to the population therefore they are biologically wrong,

Personally I dont have any opinion one way or the other, so long as they respect my rights not be gay.

Loop

Except lots of people do things all the time that don't contribute to the gene pool. Something not contributing to the gene pool is certainly not a solid basis for determining morallity.

Its simple.

People are afraid of things they dont understand.

People hate, that wich they fear.

People hate homosexuals, becuase they dont understand them.

Thing is...

The more "Bible America" gets to know homosexuals...the more they realize that there really isnt much to afraid of.

The bible was pounded into these peoples heads from before most of them could walk...they think that anything that goes against it, especialliy when it gives them a target for their hatred and fear......is evil.

Think about it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Still, people say it's wrong, even though they're people out there killing and maiming and being all icky, they're focused on these people. People say it's unnatrual, but don't you see animals doing "the nasty?" They say their unions aren't true due to "pure love," but what about Britney Spears' five-minute wedding wing-ding fiasco?

Think about it. Talk to me people.

You're comparing WILD ANIMALS to human beings, my friend. They're two different subjects.

You're talking about celebrities, who most USUALLY have degraded morals.

Not when you're on the topic of whether homosexuality is natural or not. Wild animals are nature. Some wild animals are gay. Therefore, it is natural.

So let's get an amendment to the US Constitution that prevents morally degenerate celebrities from getting married.
You're still aligning humans with wild animals, which makes quite exaggerated claims. Nature says that birds can fly. Can humans biologically fly? Nature says that gorillas live best in the jungles of Africa. Will you try?

I mean, why not?

Think about it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Still, people say it's wrong, even though they're people out there killing and maiming and being all icky, they're focused on these people. People say it's unnatrual, but don't you see animals doing "the nasty?" They say their unions aren't true due to "pure love," but what about Britney Spears' five-minute wedding wing-ding fiasco?

Think about it. Talk to me people.

You're comparing WILD ANIMALS to human beings, my friend. They're two different subjects.

You're talking about celebrities, who most USUALLY have degraded morals.

Not when you're on the topic of whether homosexuality is natural or not. Wild animals are nature. Some wild animals are gay. Therefore, it is natural.

So let's get an amendment to the US Constitution that prevents morally degenerate celebrities from getting married.
You're still aligning humans with wild animals, which makes quite exaggerated claims. Nature says that birds can fly. Can humans biologically fly? Nature says that gorillas live best in the jungles of Africa. Will you try?

I mean, why not?

Yes, I am, because that is the argument. They are claiming it is unnatural to be gay, and therefore wrong. I am showing that it is neither unnatural. I also never claimed that it being natural made it right. You seem to be showing with a fair degree of proficiency that how natural something is has no bearing on its morallity. I would suggest the addition of using computers as well as other modern technology, unnatural, but few will claim them to be morally wrong.

As for the analogies: Humans are not biologically equiped to fly so no comparison can be made. Humans are biologically equiped to be gay, as are other animals so a comparison can be made. No, I won't, but would I be morally wrong if I did? Kinda like being gay, no, I'm not, but would I be morally wrong if I were?

If you are going to say that homosexuallity is wrong because it is unnatural, you are a.) wrong and b.) already equating humans with nature.
Because the "Sanctity" of marriage vanished a long time ago. Vegas marriages complete with Elvis pretty much made sure that died permanently. Marriage is no longer even a religious status but a legal one. What legal contracts people bind themselves with should be their own business.

Well, I must admit, right off, that I'm not a homosexual, nor do in anyway condone their actions. As for the comment of "Bible America" and thier future "coming around," I don't suspect this will ever happen. The Bible, for those of us who believe it, tells us in Romans 1, among other places that men loving men and women loving women goes against nature and is wrong. I follow this belief. And if you feel that the Bible is wrong in this, tough. Don't expect Christians to change the way they are to suit you, just as you don't feel that Christians should expect you to become strait again.
I, however, also do not condone people discriminating because of sexual preference. I have homosexual friends, and though they all know that I despise thier actions, that I don't hold that against them.
As for whether or not it's natural, I would hope that it's pretty clear that it isn't. If it were natural, then we'd be set up anatomically for this, and it would have a long history. Very rarely do we hear about people throughout history being homosexuals, and I'm one who studies history in his free time quite often.
Also, as to homosexuality happening in animals, I've never heard of this. Not ever. If someone has any information on this issue, and feels compelled to enlighten me, then please do.
Another thought on whether or not it's natural: the most recent "physical reason" that would "cause" one to be a homosexual is the size of the Amigdala(or however it's spelled) in the brain. However, a person who was once a homosexual, but not longer is has a normal sized Amigdala again, and therefore when one choses to be strait again, the "physical reason" goes away.
Take my comments for what you will. I hope I have shown you a new perspective somehow, please feel free to return the favor.

what makes it wrong? uhh... nature? Opposites attract... when people see likes attracting, some people just note the incorrectness.

why cant something just be wrong? gayness is wrong, there i said it hate me because of my views but right now i could care less

Aeolian,
I dont mean to say that "Bible America" will ever change thier minds...but I think that more and more of them are willing to live, and let live.

Raysia,
The "nature" arguement is old and tired....and if you'd read the other posts..you'd know that there are many homosexual tendencies in the animal kingdom.
The reason people like you comment, is out of intolerance.

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott
*claps*

Practicality, you can't propogate.

Isn't there overpopulation in the world? Can the rest of the world (resources) feed the children that would come of the homosexuals being in 'straight' marriages/relationships?

In theory(in my mind) homosexuality balances the people who have too many children they can't provide for.

any responses?

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

Thats lovely....no really, it is....

But..you seem to have missed the POINT of the thread....

"What....OTHER THAN THE BIBLE" is wrong with it?

Homosexuals are such a small portion of the population it dosen't really make any difference in balance.

Practicality, you can't propogate.

Isn't there overpopulation in the world? Can the rest of the world (resources) feed the children that would come of the homosexuals being in 'straight' marriages/relationships?

In theory(in my mind) homosexuality balances the people who have too many children they can't provide for.

any responses?

So what you're saying is that, there are too many people in the world already. That people who are homosexual who wouldn't propogate already, might as well go let them have sex and do whatever because it "balances the world out". No offense, but that doesn't make any sense. Name one empire that after legalizing and moralizing homosexuality boomed succesfully economically and politically? Soddom? Gomorah? Rome? France? (:lol:)

Well, I must admit, right off, that I'm not a homosexual, nor do in anyway condone their actions. As for the comment of "Bible America" and thier future "coming around," I don't suspect this will ever happen. The Bible, for those of us who believe it, tells us in Romans 1, among other places that men loving men and women loving women goes against nature and is wrong. I follow this belief. And if you feel that the Bible is wrong in this, tough. Don't expect Christians to change the way they are to suit you, just as you don't feel that Christians should expect you to become strait again.
I, however, also do not condone people discriminating because of sexual preference. I have homosexual friends, and though they all know that I despise thier actions, that I don't hold that against them.
As for whether or not it's natural, I would hope that it's pretty clear that it isn't. If it were natural, then we'd be set up anatomically for this, and it would have a long history. Very rarely do we hear about people throughout history being homosexuals, and I'm one who studies history in his free time quite often.
Also, as to homosexuality happening in animals, I've never heard of this. Not ever. If someone has any information on this issue, and feels compelled to enlighten me, then please do.
Another thought on whether or not it's natural: the most recent "physical reason" that would "cause" one to be a homosexual is the size of the Amigdala(or however it's spelled) in the brain. However, a person who was once a homosexual, but not longer is has a normal sized Amigdala again, and therefore when one choses to be strait again, the "physical reason" goes away.
Take my comments for what you will. I hope I have shown you a new perspective somehow, please feel free to return the favor.

actually, several great and unfortunately eccentric leaders in history were in fact gay. Crazy Ludwig of Germany had several young lovers, and Hoover (founder of the CIA) was a transvestite and rumored to have some questionable lovers.

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

Thats lovely....no really, it is....

But..you seem to have missed the POINT of the thread....

"What....OTHER THAN THE BIBLE" is wrong with it?

I was answering to the misconceptions on "Bible America". Other then the Bible, there is no reason why it is wrong. Because without the Bible and without God, there are no morals, and therefor, someone has to make those morals, and who's to say who's are better, Man A or Man B? WIthout the Bible, the world is yours for the taking. If you really feel the need to, go ahead and be homosexual. I strongly recommond not doing so, but other than the Bible , there is no reason why you shouldn't.

Practicality, you can't propogate.

Isn't there overpopulation in the world? Can the rest of the world (resources) feed the children that would come of the homosexuals being in 'straight' marriages/relationships?

In theory(in my mind) homosexuality balances the people who have too many children they can't provide for.

any responses?

So what you're saying is that, there are too many people in the world already. That people who are homosexual who wouldn't propogate already, might as well go let them have sex and do whatever because it "balances the world out". No offense, but that doesn't make any sense. Name one empire that after legalizing and moralizing homosexuality boomed succesfully economically and politically? Soddom? Gomorah? Rome? France? (:lol:)

Rome existed for how long?

Japan existed as an Empire for how long?

Greece?

Need more?

Practicality, you can't propogate.

Isn't there overpopulation in the world? Can the rest of the world (resources) feed the children that would come of the homosexuals being in 'straight' marriages/relationships?

In theory(in my mind) homosexuality balances the people who have too many children they can't provide for.

any responses?

So what you're saying is that, there are too many people in the world already. That people who are homosexual who wouldn't propogate already, might as well go let them have sex and do whatever because it "balances the world out". No offense, but that doesn't make any sense. Name one empire that after legalizing and moralizing homosexuality boomed succesfully economically and politically? Soddom? Gomorah? Rome? France? (:lol:)

Rome existed for how long?

Japan existed as an Empire for how long?

Greece?

Need more?

Let me rephrase that then. How long AFTER moralizng and legalizing Homosexual behaivor did they last?

Aeolian:

Seek enlightenment and ye shall recieve it.

A quick google search and...

http://www.rnw.nl/lifestyle/html/gayanimals000808.html
http://www.subversions.com/french/pages/science/animals.html
http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htmhttp://www.dailycardinal.com/news/2004/02/12/News/Animal.Homosexuality.Adds.To.Gay.Rights.Debate-605235.shtml
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc97/1_4_97/bob1.htm
http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=3555
http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/03/cov_15featurea.html
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0304/07animals.html
http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/natural.html
http://www.mask.org.za/sections/AfricaPerCountry/zimbabwe/gayanim.html

If you need more links, just ask.

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

If you had read the thread you would know that it runs contrary to the common claim that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong.

Scottmanland:

Greece lasted a damn long time as if I remember my Classical Studies class correctly it was a part of their society in many a Greek polis from their foundation more or less.

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

Yes, honestly it doesn't. Your question was, other than the Bible, what is wrong with homosexuality. Well its already answered. Nothing. I'm not going to lie to you, because I'm Christian and I supposedly "hate" all gays. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong. So you see, if you don't believe in the Bible, I can't help that. It is a tragedy, but its not my job to change that. So if you believe not in the Bible, nothing is wrong with it. Now myself believing in the Bible, I believe it is wrong, why? Because God said so. Pretty plain and simple. If you decide to not believe in God, I can't change it. So therefor, in your eyes, you are sticking to your morals. It still is very sad though.

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

*claps*

Your last post, however, has just a little discrepensy...

Rome, for a fairly long time, did prosper and thrive, even though homosexuality was legal.

Christianity was actually one of the things that destroyed the Empire. The Western, at least. It wasn't the beliefs... It was more of a changing of religion that was there for almost a millenia... I think.

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

Thats lovely....no really, it is....

But..you seem to have missed the POINT of the thread....

"What....OTHER THAN THE BIBLE" is wrong with it?

I was answering to the misconceptions on "Bible America". Other then the Bible, there is no reason why it is wrong. Because without the Bible and without God, there are no morals, and therefor, someone has to make those morals, and who's to say who's are better, Man A or Man B? WIthout the Bible, the world is yours for the taking. If you really feel the need to, go ahead and be homosexual. I strongly recommond not doing so, but other than the Bible , there is no reason why you shouldn't.

So...if I dont believe in your bible....then there is no reason at all by your logic.

Well...since you now, realize that the bible doesnt apply to everyone....becuase not all people are christian..then maybe you admit that homosexuality isnt wrong?

Um... the fact that 'gayness' isn't a real word :wink:

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

If you had read the thread you would know that it runs contrary to the common claim that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong.
just because some animals are gay doesnt mean its natural, gayness could be a disorder, or mental illness.

Um... the fact that 'gayness' isn't a real word :wink:its shorter than homosexual

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

*claps*

Your last post, however, has just a little discrepensy...

Rome, for a fairly long time, did prosper and thrive, even though homosexuality was legal.

Christianity was actually one of the things that destroyed the Empire. The Western, at least. It wasn't the beliefs... It was more of a changing of religion that was there for almost a millenia... I think.

Actually, I would like to add that that is a common misconception on what destroyed the Roman Empire. Christianity almost saved it. The bringing back of morals to the people, brought about by Constantinople. This is according to my Latin teacher, who has read and translated deeply into a heck of a lot of Roman and Greek history. It wasn't homosexuality by itself, but the degredation of morals that brought Rome on its way to destruction. Now let me say one more thing. I don't hate any one of you. I said something that wasn't entirely true on accident, I'm sorry if I was ill informed. (Not taking anythign else back though). But by hitting this one little mistake of mine, you are getting off topic. I've addressed the topic and I don't think it needs to be debated anymore. Its unnatural? Yes according to God. You don't believe in God? Well then you define the morals and what you BELIEVE is natural. Is it mroally right? Look above.

I believe I have gotten my point clearly across though 8)

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

If you had read the thread you would know that it runs contrary to the common claim that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong.
just because some animals are gay doesnt mean its natural, gayness could be a disorder, or mental illness.

Mental disorders are natural. Furthermore, is being mentallty ill morally wrong?

Practicality, you can't propogate.

Being gay doesn't mean that you can't have kids. If you want them, you still can. Also, by your logic *any* relationship which can't produce children would also have to be wrong, including infertile couples or those who just don't want kids.

Well...since you now, realize that the bible doesnt apply to everyone....becuase not all people are christian..then maybe you admit that homosexuality isnt wrong?
No not at all. I by all means am TELLING you it is wrong. But if you do not believe it is wrong. I can't stop you. Yes it is what you believe. Because your faith has alot to do with everything. You say you're Athiest? Thats a religion, and you have beliefs based on it. So if you are telling me that you believe that homosexuality is right, then I can't tell you. I am not happy with it, I do not agree it, I am not conforming to it, but I will respect your belief.

There are things far stranger than homosexuality. It is foolish to hate homosexuals.

-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg


:roll: Non sequitur

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

*claps*

Your last post, however, has just a little discrepensy...

Rome, for a fairly long time, did prosper and thrive, even though homosexuality was legal.

Christianity was actually one of the things that destroyed the Empire. The Western, at least. It wasn't the beliefs... It was more of a changing of religion that was there for almost a millenia... I think.

Actually, I would like to add that that is a common misconception on what destroyed the Roman Empire. Christianity almost saved it. The bringing back of morals to the people, brought about by Constantinople. This is according to my Latin teacher, who has read and translated deeply into a heck of a lot of Roman and Greek history. It wasn't homosexuality by itself, but the degredation of morals that brought Rome on its way to destruction. Now let me say one more thing. I don't hate any one of you. I said something that wasn't entirely true on accident, I'm sorry if I was ill informed. (Not taking anythign else back though). But by hitting this one little mistake of mine, you are getting off topic. I've addressed the topic and I don't think it needs to be debated anymore. Its unnatural? Yes according to God. You don't believe in God? Well then you define the morals and what you BELIEVE is natural. Is it mroally right? Look above.

I believe I have gotten my point clearly across though 8)

The Bible says all sorts of funny things that are wrong. In Genesis it says that Bats are Birds and that snakes eat dirt. Neither is true. I would also like to know where the Bible actually says it's unnatural.

It is not wrong, and I don't care what the bible says. We can only guess god's true will and I don't think he is discriminatory.

Ok, on the issue of Homosexuality, I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about "Bible America". I for one am Christian. I'm proud of it. You wanna hate me? Then you're a hypocrite. Now that that's over with. As a Christian, I believe that being "gay" is wrong because it say so in the Bible. Being a Christian, I believe every word in there to be the word of God and that God can never lie. Therefor, I believe that homosexuality is a wrong. It is a sin. Thereafter, it also says in the Bible, hate the sin, not the sinner. It also says to love they neighbor as you love thyself. I do not hate "gays" at all. I have one very good friend who is "bi" but I am still her friend, and I don't hate her at all. She is a good friend, and no different from me in any way. All of us have sinned, and all sins are equal under God's eyes. I am no better then any homosexual. All I have is a Savior. Otherwise there is no difference between me, or any homosexual, adulterer, murderer, rascist, anything (unless they have accepted Christ too that is ;)). We are all brothers and sisters in God's eyes and God loves ALL of us. So to say that I hate any homosexual would be saying that I think my judgement is better than that of God, which is utterly ridiculous, and I don't think anybody would say that. Anyways, hope I leveled some things out.

Scott

*claps*

Your last post, however, has just a little discrepensy...

Rome, for a fairly long time, did prosper and thrive, even though homosexuality was legal.

Christianity was actually one of the things that destroyed the Empire. The Western, at least. It wasn't the beliefs... It was more of a changing of religion that was there for almost a millenia... I think.

Actually, I would like to add that that is a common misconception on what destroyed the Roman Empire. Christianity almost saved it. The bringing back of morals to the people, brought about by Constantinople. This is according to my Latin teacher, who has read and translated deeply into a heck of a lot of Roman and Greek history. It wasn't homosexuality by itself, but the degredation of morals that brought Rome on its way to destruction. Now let me say one more thing. I don't hate any one of you. I said something that wasn't entirely true on accident, I'm sorry if I was ill informed. (Not taking anythign else back though). But by hitting this one little mistake of mine, you are getting off topic. I've addressed the topic and I don't think it needs to be debated anymore. Its unnatural? Yes according to God. You don't believe in God? Well then you define the morals and what you BELIEVE is natural. Is it mroally right? Look above.

I believe I have gotten my point clearly across though 8)

The Bible says all sorts of funny things that are wrong. In Genesis it says that Bats are Birds and that snakes eat dirt. Neither is true. I would also like to know where the Bible actually says it's unnatural.

Read Romans 1:18-32. If you don't have a Bible...gimme a second

www.bible.com has it.

Well...since you now, realize that the bible doesnt apply to everyone....becuase not all people are christian..then maybe you admit that homosexuality isnt wrong?
No not at all. I by all means am TELLING you it is wrong. But if you do not believe it is wrong. I can't stop you. Yes it is what you believe. Because your faith has alot to do with everything. You say you're Athiest? Thats a religion, and you have beliefs based on it. So if you are telling me that you believe that homosexuality is right, then I can't tell you. I am not happy with it, I do not agree it, I am not conforming to it, but I will respect your belief.

You wrote:
Other then the Bible, there is no reason why it is wrong

You must realize that Christians are not..and cannot be..the final arbritators, of what is right...and what is wrong..in the terms of morality.
I, nor anyone else...truly needs the Bible to tell me what I know is wrong in my heart....neither does anyone else.

That is saying that NO OTHER religion, and the people therein, have any morality, or decency.

The hippocracy of that statement is enormous.

Therefore, as I said...without your bible.....you cant come up with any good reasons why homosexuality is wrong can you?

It is not wrong, and I don't care what the bible says. We can only guess god's true will and I don't think he is discriminatory.
Belief is Belief. I cannot change that. If you truly believe that God would tell something is wrong, then don't. By all means, go ahead and do whatever you want, God still loves you right? Go ahead, worship Satan, because it doesn't matter, God still loves you. God does love everybody and its true, He will love you no matter what. God is also just. Say your wife says something mean to you in a fit of rage, would you not try to work it out and then would you not forgive her and still love her? In this same way, God, even though you act out against God's will, He will always accept your repentence, and will always love you, no matter what. Want proof? Read the Bible. You don't want to read the Bible, ask a Christian friend. Don't have a Christian friend? Ask me and I'll give you plenty of examples, where I have fallen short and God has forgiven me and still loved me. I'm out

Scott

Barring Biblical realted issues,

The Human race was designed by the random hand of evolution to be a two gendered species, now this is so as to perpetuate the species and keep us here, well, Homosexuals cannot reproduce and add nothing to the gene pool or to the population therefore they are biologically wrong,

Personally I dont have any opinion one way or the other, so long as they respect my rights not be gay.

Loop

1. The human race was not 'designed' by evolution, it can't be random and a design at the same time, you can't have it both ways. There is no mind at work in evolution with a plan in mind for the species. There is nothing which was 'meant' to happen. Whatever happens just happens.

2. Sex and gender are two different things. Sex is determined by biology, gender by society.

3. Homosexuals *can* reproduce, just not with each other. There are plenty of gay couples who have children through in vitro fertilisation or a one night stand with a member of the opposite sex just to produce children.

4. What do you mean by 'biologically wrong' ? There is no right and wrong in biology. Natural laws are descriptive, not prescriptive. They tell how things are, not how they should be.

It is not wrong, and I don't care what the bible says. We can only guess god's true will and I don't think he is discriminatory.
Belief is Belief. I cannot change that. If you truly believe that God would tell something is wrong, then don't. By all means, go ahead and do whatever you want, God still loves you right? Go ahead, worship Satan, because it doesn't matter, God still loves you. God does love everybody and its true, He will love you no matter what. God is also just. Say your wife says something mean to you in a fit of rage, would you not try to work it out and then would you not forgive her and still love her? In this same way, God, even though you act out against God's will, He will always accept your repentence, and will always love you, no matter what. Want proof? Read the Bible. You don't want to read the Bible, ask a Christian friend. Don't have a Christian friend? Ask me and I'll give you plenty of examples, where I have fallen short and God has forgiven me and still loved me. I'm out

Scott

I rest my case..and claim victory.

Alirghty then, let's get back to the topic of this thread.

What reasons, that do not involve the Bible in any way shape or form, should I have for believing homosexuality is wrong. Why?

Alirghty then, let's get back to the topic of this thread.

What reasons, that do not involve the Bible in any way shape or form, should I have for believing homosexuality is wrong. Why?
it just is, somethings are wrong and homosexuality is one of them

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

If you had read the thread you would know that it runs contrary to the common claim that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong.

Scottmanland:

Greece lasted a damn long time as if I remember my Classical Studies class correctly it was a part of their society in many a Greek polis from their foundation more or less.

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

Killing is wrong because it causes harm to another person. Being gay does not.

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

There is a clear distinction in who does murder hurt and what damage it does and the effects of homosexuality.

If you had read the thread you would know that it runs contrary to the common claim that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong.
just because some animals are gay doesnt mean its natural

whatever could you possibly mean by "natural" if examples of something found "in nature" don't count?

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

Killing is wrong because it causes harm to another person. Being gay does not.if you're the parents of a child who is gay and it upsets you is that not emotional harm? if you're the wife of man who after ten years of being married comes out of the closet and divorces(sp?) you does that not cause harm?

Well...since you now, realize that the bible doesnt apply to everyone....becuase not all people are christian..then maybe you admit that homosexuality isnt wrong?
No not at all. I by all means am TELLING you it is wrong. But if you do not believe it is wrong. I can't stop you. Yes it is what you believe. Because your faith has alot to do with everything. You say you're Athiest? Thats a religion, and you have beliefs based on it. So if you are telling me that you believe that homosexuality is right, then I can't tell you. I am not happy with it, I do not agree it, I am not conforming to it, but I will respect your belief.

You wrote:
Other then the Bible, there is no reason why it is wrong

You must realize that Christians are not..and cannot be..the final arbritators, of what is right...and what is wrong..in the terms of morality.
I, nor anyone else...truly needs the Bible to tell me what I know is wrong in my heart....neither does anyone else.

That is saying that NO OTHER religion, and the people therein, have any morality, or decency.

The hippocracy of that statement is enormous.

Therefore, as I said...without your bible.....you cant come up with any good reasons why homosexuality is wrong can you?

I was about to go to sleep, but I saw this, and thought it better to address it before I go to bed. I will reply to this one, and then I'm going to bed. Any other statement that is said that is speaking out against me will have to wait for awhile, because I'm not going to be in tomorrow or Sunday.


That is saying that NO OTHER religion, and the people therein, have any morality, or decency.

You my friend are putting words in my mouth. Where did it say I that no other religion has any morals? I said the exact opposite. Those religions, even without God, have morals. Are they different from my morals, and the rest of Christianity or Judaism? Yes. Does that mean I can change them? No. I've said it many times tonight. There are always morals. God clearly placed down morals for all of mankind to see. These morals are in our very nature. How? You are standing in a long line, you cut everyone, now you are next in line. Would you do that? No. If you did? Well then people would complain, Athiest, Wiccan, Christian alike. Why? Because they know its not fair. How? Because its our very nature to have those morals. Now you're probably going to come back and say "Well homosexuality is just someone elses view of morality" and I've said it before! I KNOW! IT IS THEIR VIEW OF MORALITY! How many times must I say it to get this view accross to you? I am telling you, I only have my Bible and God. I'll tell you again. My Bible and God tell me that homosexuality is wrong. What do you have backing your morality? Your own views? Your own religion? Fine. Thats what yours are. Am I saying they are wrong? Yes. Am I going to hate you? No. It's just as simple as that. Now if you don't mind, I need to stop this endless arguement. There is nothing left to be said here, or so I believe. How you form your view hereafter are yours. Only you can decide what to believe.

You must realize that Christians are not..and cannot be..the final arbritators, of what is right...and what is wrong..in the terms of morality.
I, nor anyone else...truly needs the Bible to tell me what I know is wrong in my heart....neither does anyone else.

*sigh* I saw this just before I was about to sleep.

Christians aren't the final aribtrators of what is right and what is wrong. God is. Whether or not you accept it is fine with me, though I'd be endlessly happy if you chose God's way. Another crony for the Bible you say? No, because I love you as a neighbor and it really breaks my heart to think of what will happen to all of you who aren't saved. It really does. All of you are great people. Its such a shame. (No sarcasm in there, none.) Now you want to say that only your heart can tell you what is right or wrong? What if my heart told me that stealing your brand new Cobra GT Supercharged was right? You couldn't discriminate against me for it, could you? Because in my heart its right. In my heart its alright to go off and kill whoever I want, and I can't be arrested, because in my heart its alright. So not to put words in your mouth, I'm going to let you answer that one. For me, its time to sleep.


Scott

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

Yes, honestly it doesn't. Your question was, other than the Bible, what is wrong with homosexuality. Well its already answered. Nothing. I'm not going to lie to you, because I'm Christian and I supposedly "hate" all gays. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong. So you see, if you don't believe in the Bible, I can't help that. It is a tragedy, but its not my job to change that. So if you believe not in the Bible, nothing is wrong with it. Now myself believing in the Bible, I believe it is wrong, why? Because God said so. Pretty plain and simple. If you decide to not believe in God, I can't change it. So therefor, in your eyes, you are sticking to your morals. It still is very sad though.

:roll: You are quite wrong in saying that 'outside of the Bible there are no morals'. Christians are NOT the only people in the world with morals. Many people of other religions, philosophies and ways of thinking have their own moral codes, which may be similar to, or completely different from Christian morals. You may not agree with these moral codes, but it is idiotic to simply deny that they exist in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

It is not wrong, and I don't care what the bible says. We can only guess god's true will and I don't think he is discriminatory.
Belief is Belief. I cannot change that. If you truly believe that God would tell something is wrong, then don't. By all means, go ahead and do whatever you want, God still loves you right? Go ahead, worship Satan, because it doesn't matter, God still loves you. God does love everybody and its true, He will love you no matter what. God is also just. Say your wife says something mean to you in a fit of rage, would you not try to work it out and then would you not forgive her and still love her? In this same way, God, even though you act out against God's will, He will always accept your repentence, and will always love you, no matter what. Want proof? Read the Bible. You don't want to read the Bible, ask a Christian friend. Don't have a Christian friend? Ask me and I'll give you plenty of examples, where I have fallen short and God has forgiven me and still loved me. I'm out

Scott

I rest my case..and claim victory.

Ok one last time. You claim victory? All I was telling you is that I cannot change your beliefs. If that is victory for you then celebrate my friend. Celebrate. You make your own morals. I take the morals of God. Who's to say what is right? Well you can explain yoruself on Judgement Day. If you don't believe in Heavan or Hell, well then, there really is no point to our measly existance anyways, so why not go do whatever we want?

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

Killing is wrong because it causes harm to another person. Being gay does not.if you're the parents of a child who is gay and it upsets you is that not emotional harm? if you're the wife of man who after ten years of being married comes out of the closet and divorces(sp?) you does that not cause harm?

Counterpoint:

If a gay child's parents believing homosexuality to be wrong causes the child to be upset is not believing homosexuality to be wrong wrong?

If someone in a gay couple who have been living together and supporting each other for ten years becomes straight and leaves his partner doe sthat not cause harm? Doesn't that make being straight wrong?

And before you say that their different, I want an explanation as to how they are different.

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

Killing is wrong because it causes harm to another person. Being gay does not.if you're the parents of a child who is gay and it upsets you is that not emotional harm? if you're the wife of man who after ten years of being married comes out of the closet and divorces(sp?) you does that not cause harm?
If a gay child's parents believing homosexuality to be wrong causes the child to be upset is not believing homosexuality to be wrong wrong?what?

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

Yes, honestly it doesn't. Your question was, other than the Bible, what is wrong with homosexuality. Well its already answered. Nothing. I'm not going to lie to you, because I'm Christian and I supposedly "hate" all gays. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong. So you see, if you don't believe in the Bible, I can't help that. It is a tragedy, but its not my job to change that. So if you believe not in the Bible, nothing is wrong with it. Now myself believing in the Bible, I believe it is wrong, why? Because God said so. Pretty plain and simple. If you decide to not believe in God, I can't change it. So therefor, in your eyes, you are sticking to your morals. It still is very sad though.

:roll: You are quite wrong in saying that 'outside of the Bible there are no morals'. Christians are NOT the only people in the world with morals. Many people of other religions, philosophies and ways of thinking have their own moral codes, which may be similar to, or completely different from Christian morals. You may not agree with these moral codes, but it is idiotic to simply deny that they exist in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

It seems I am being called a liar and a hypocrit again. Read my words carefully. "Therefor man must decide what is right and wrong." Do you know what a moral is? It is a defining term of what is right and wrong. What I said is without the Bible, man must make his own morals, rather than use the ones God laid out for us. Its just that simple. Because I did not say the word moral, does not mean I did not use its definition. If I say stealing, does it not also mean, taking something that doesn't belong to me? Do you see me looking for any minor discrepensy in each one of your posts, looking for something I could mold into hipocrisy? No. I don't need to. I know I'm right, because I am speaking to you that of which God is. As Mark Twain put it "Men do not fear the Bible because it contradicts itself, the fear it because it contradicts them."


Oh and for the rest of you that are uncomfortable with me here? Get used to it. I'm here for the long run 8).

Well...since you now, realize that the bible doesnt apply to everyone....becuase not all people are christian..then maybe you admit that homosexuality isnt wrong?
No not at all. I by all means am TELLING you it is wrong. But if you do not believe it is wrong. I can't stop you. Yes it is what you believe. Because your faith has alot to do with everything. You say you're Athiest? Thats a religion, and you have beliefs based on it. So if you are telling me that you believe that homosexuality is right, then I can't tell you. I am not happy with it, I do not agree it, I am not conforming to it, but I will respect your belief.

You wrote:
Other then the Bible, there is no reason why it is wrong

You must realize that Christians are not..and cannot be..the final arbritators, of what is right...and what is wrong..in the terms of morality.
I, nor anyone else...truly needs the Bible to tell me what I know is wrong in my heart....neither does anyone else.

That is saying that NO OTHER religion, and the people therein, have any morality, or decency.

The hippocracy of that statement is enormous.

Therefore, as I said...without your bible.....you cant come up with any good reasons why homosexuality is wrong can you?

I was about to go to sleep, but I saw this, and thought it better to address it before I go to bed. I will reply to this one, and then I'm going to bed. Any other statement that is said that is speaking out against me will have to wait for awhile, because I'm not going to be in tomorrow or Sunday.


That is saying that NO OTHER religion, and the people therein, have any morality, or decency.

You my friend are putting words in my mouth. Where did it say I that no other religion has any morals?

Right here:

Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong.

Pretty cut and dried, I think.


What if my heart told me that stealing your brand new Cobra GT Supercharged was right? You couldn't discriminate against me for it, could you? Because in my heart its right. In my heart its alright to go off and kill whoever I want, and I can't be arrested, because in my heart its alright. So not to put words in your mouth, I'm going to let you answer that one. For me, its time to sleep.

then your heart would land in jail..
the supreme court has made it perfectly legal to have sex with another man/woman .....


Once again...you cannot come up with any reasons as to why Homosexuality is wrong, outside of your faith.
Did you not notice the title of the thread?

I win.

NO animals "do the nasty" with other animals of the same sex, Gayness is wrong also because it socialy wrong they cant have the rights as a stright marriage. and fcuk Brittany Spears. she does sum thin wrong and now gays r now the only ppl that hold marriage up u guys are 2 damn liberal

ok so i can come up and kill u and ur gay partner. IT NOT WORNG TO ME!! ur thinking is WRONG

That's not much of a reason. What is wrong about it? Who does it hurt, what damage does it do?its wrong like killing is wrong, it just is, it doesnt need explanation

Killing is wrong because it causes harm to another person. Being gay does not.if you're the parents of a child who is gay and it upsets you is that not emotional harm? if you're the wife of man who after ten years of being married comes out of the closet and divorces(sp?) you does that not cause harm?

In both of these examples people are hurt, but it is not because the people in question are gay, but because society has not yet fully accepted gays. If it had, then the gay man in the second example wouldn't have been in the closet in the first place, he wouldn't have felt the need to hide what he was by marrying the woman.

As to the first example, lots of parents are dissapointed by their children not turning out exactly as they hoped they would. That's just part of being a parent. If being gay was more widely considered acceptable, then what would the parents have to be upset about.

I'm curious, you seem to believe not just that gay sex is wrong but that actually *being* gay is wrong. Do you believe that gays have a choice about it? Since, as I said before, society is often pretty cruel to gays, why would anyone choose it? And if they don't choose it how can it be wrong? If you don't have a choice in something it's not a moral question (Kant's Catagorical Imperative: Ought implies can)

NO animals "do the nasty" with other animals of the same sex, Gayness is wrong also because it socialy wrong they cant have the rights as a stright marriage. and fcuk Brittany Spears. she does sum thin wrong and now gays r now the only ppl that hold marriage up u guys are 2 damn liberal

Not only are you wrong......you cant spell.

Look into Chimpanzees....wolves.....sheep....etc.....

NO animals "do the nasty" with other animals of the same sex

looky here, gay sheep...and there is a biological basis for it no less (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1061683.htm)

That is saying that NO OTHER religion, and the people therein, have any morality, or decency.

You my friend are putting words in my mouth. Where did it say I that no other religion has any morals?

Right here:

Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong.

Pretty cut and dried, I think.
[/quote]

Do you not know what a moral is? Its the DEFINITION OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG! As a Christian, I believe that only God has the right to make morals. I said that outside of the Bible (If you need me to...John:1:1 "In the begining there was the Word, and the Word was God..."....pretty simple and clear cut. In my religion, God is God's word. No the Bible is not God, the Bible is the word of God, whom cannot lie and if you are calling God a liar? So be it. Just one more thing for you to account for on Judgement Day.

As for you winning. Yes, you won your thread. Does that mean you're right? As to the question in your thread, yes. Because outside of the Bible, there is no possible way one side or the other of this arguement can be proven right. Does that make homosexuality right? That was not the question of this thread, my friend.

I am tired of being flamed on the other hand, so I will step down for the night and let all of you brood on the Christian perspective of this all.

Scott

You were not flamed once in our conversation.
If you disagree...take it up with a mod.
I can assure you...they will agree with me.

This was a debate, in wich I challenged you to make an arguement against homosexuality, without using the bible as a reference.

You failed miserably.

I have nothing against you, or your faith..I simply disagree very much, to the idea that only "God" knows anything about morality.

thats simply and irrevocably false.

NO animals "do the nasty" with other animals of the same sex

LOL I've got ten links on page 2 that say otherwise.

GV

Reworded, your and my scenarios were this:

Yours:

From this if you're the parents of a child who is gay and it upsets you is that not emotional harm?

There is a parent and a gay child.
The parent believes homosexuality is immoral.
Because of this, the parent is upset because the child is gay.
Therefore emotional damage is taking place.
Therefore homosexuality is wrong.

Mine:

From this If a gay child's parents believing homosexuality to be wrong causes the child to be upset is not believing homosexuality to be wrong wrong?

There is a parent and a gay child.
The parent believes homosexuallity is immoral.
This belief makes the child upset because the parent does not approve of his sexual orientation
Therefore emotional damage is taking place.
Therefore believing homosexuality to be immoral is wrong.

what do animals being gay have to do with homosexuality being right or wrong?

It simple, when God created the world he created Adam and Eve not Adam and Even or Adam and Steven.

key in the key hole. Thats all there is to it.

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?

It simple, when God created the world he created Adam and Eve not Adam and Even or Adam and Steven.

key in the key hole. Thats all there is to it.

Since this is the what reasons apart from the bible are there for homosexuality being wrong, can I assume you will tell us about non-biblical literature that tells us of God creating Adam and Eve?

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

Yes, honestly it doesn't. Your question was, other than the Bible, what is wrong with homosexuality. Well its already answered. Nothing. I'm not going to lie to you, because I'm Christian and I supposedly "hate" all gays. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong. So you see, if you don't believe in the Bible, I can't help that. It is a tragedy, but its not my job to change that. So if you believe not in the Bible, nothing is wrong with it. Now myself believing in the Bible, I believe it is wrong, why? Because God said so. Pretty plain and simple. If you decide to not believe in God, I can't change it. So therefor, in your eyes, you are sticking to your morals. It still is very sad though.

:roll: You are quite wrong in saying that 'outside of the Bible there are no morals'. Christians are NOT the only people in the world with morals. Many people of other religions, philosophies and ways of thinking have their own moral codes, which may be similar to, or completely different from Christian morals. You may not agree with these moral codes, but it is idiotic to simply deny that they exist in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

It seems I am being called a liar and a hypocrit again. Read my words carefully. "Therefor man must decide what is right and wrong." Do you know what a moral is? It is a defining term of what is right and wrong. What I said is without the Bible, man must make his own morals, rather than use the ones God laid out for us. Its just that simple. Because I did not say the word moral, does not mean I did not use its definition. If I say stealing, does it not also mean, taking something that doesn't belong to me? Do you see me looking for any minor discrepensy in each one of your posts, looking for something I could mold into hipocrisy? No. I don't need to. I know I'm right, because I am speaking to you that of which God is. As Mark Twain put it "Men do not fear the Bible because it contradicts itself, the fear it because it contradicts them."


Oh and for the rest of you that are uncomfortable with me here? Get used to it. I'm here for the long run 8).

I didn't call you a liar and a hypocrit, I called you an idiot. :wink:
Ok, I misunderstood you, my bad. I have *not* been looking through your posts for ammunition to call you a hypocrit- I have nothing against you personally, nor against Christians (I used to be one myself). I just saw that one line and went off half c0cked. After all, you did actually use the words 'outside of the Bible, there are no morals' which was a rather misleading statement. If you're going to get so ticked off if people misunderstand you try writing more clearly!

You also discounted the possibility that some other religion may in fact be right. If your God doesn't exist, but, say, the Goddess Wiccans worship does, then morals would not come from your God, but they would still not just be made up by people.

I have a question for you though... a paradox Socrates came up with:

Either:
A)Good actions are good because God says so.
*Whatever* God decides is good is right, if God decided rape was good then it would be.

The only difference between God and us is that he has the power to enforce his whims, and in theory if we were to become more powerful we could make God obey us instead.


OR

B) Good actions are good independantly of God
In which case, we can have morals independantly of God

God is bound by the same moral code as we are, and so smiting sinners would constitute murder.

Either way, we are morally equal to God, so why worship him?

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?Yes. Since homosexuality occurs in nature without any outside influence it is a naturally occuring phenomena.

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?

If it occurs OTHER PLACES IN NATURE?

YES.

THAT MEANS ITS NOT UNNATURAL.

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?Yes. Since homosexuality occurs in nature without any outside influence it is a naturally occuring phenomena.so couldnt it be a mental illness or disorder, which means its not natural?

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?

When you say that being gay is unnatural, what exactly do you mean by 'unnatural'?

If you are using the word 'natural' in the sense of 'that which exists in nature' as opposed to 'unnatural: That which is created by humans' then the existance of gay animals (animals being a part of nature) would mean that being gay is natural.

If, by 'unnatural' you mean 'unusual, not standard/typical' then yes, being gay is unnatural in that sense because it is not as common as heterosexuality. However, something being unnatural in this sense does not mean that it is bad. Very intelligent or talented people are highly unusual, whereas stupidity is as common as dirt. :P

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?Yes. Since homosexuality occurs in nature without any outside influence it is a naturally occuring phenomena.so couldnt it be a mental illness or disorder, which means its not natural?

We covered this too. In fact, I am getting the sneaking suspicion that you are simply c/p old posts.

No, because mental disorders and illnesses are natural as well. Furthermore, does being mentally ill make you immoral?

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?Yes. Since homosexuality occurs in nature without any outside influence it is a naturally occuring phenomena.so couldnt it be a mental illness or disorder, which means its not natural?

We covered this too. In fact, I am getting the sneaking suspicion that you are simply c/p old posts.

No, because mental disorders and illnesses are natural as well. Furthermore, does being mentally ill make you immoral?no, mental illnesses are not natural. and being gay is immoral (im not really in the spirit of this debate but i fell like i have to say something)

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?Yes. Since homosexuality occurs in nature without any outside influence it is a naturally occuring phenomena.so couldnt it be a mental illness or disorder, which means its not natural?

We covered this too. In fact, I am getting the sneaking suspicion that you are simply c/p old posts.

No, because mental disorders and illnesses are natural as well. Furthermore, does being mentally ill make you immoral?no, mental illnesses are not natural. and being gay is immoral (im not really in the spirit of this debate but i fell like i have to say something)

What do you mean they aren't natural? They are the product of natural phenomena (DNA, Illness, Injury, etc.) and they occur naturally so they are in fact natural.

So having a mental illness is immoral now?

Scott[/quote]

If you don't believe in Heavan or Hell, well then, there really is no point to our measly existance anyways, so why not go do whatever we want?[/quote]

I pity you for being unable to conceive of any possible motivation beyond that very simplistic 'stick and carrot' view of the world. :roll:

GV:

Once again, it disproves the claim that homosexuality is unnatural, a frequent reason given for why homosexuality is wrong. Didn't we cover this already?just because animals are gay means its not unnatural
?Yes. Since homosexuality occurs in nature without any outside influence it is a naturally occuring phenomena.so couldnt it be a mental illness or disorder, which means its not natural?

We covered this too. In fact, I am getting the sneaking suspicion that you are simply c/p old posts.

No, because mental disorders and illnesses are natural as well. Furthermore, does being mentally ill make you immoral?no, mental illnesses are not natural. and being gay is immoral (im not really in the spirit of this debate but i fell like i have to say something)

What do you mean they aren't natural? They are the product of natural phenomena (DNA, Illness, Injury, etc.) and they occur naturally so they are in fact natural.

So having a mental illness is immoral now?no, i never said they were immoral. never mind this is pointless you win, whatever
oh yeah for good measure, go fuck yourself! :wink: (no offense intended, i like maddox and i like to say that! :D )

It simple, when God created the world he created Adam and Eve not Adam and Even or Adam and Steven.

key in the key hole. Thats all there is to it.

Since this is the what reasons apart from the bible are there for homosexuality being wrong, can I assume you will tell us about non-biblical literature that tells us of God creating Adam and Eve?

Sure but I also gave anouther anology, key in the keyhole. I think its self explainitory.

And they are right in it is unnature. You never see a gay dog, or a gay cat.

Yea some times you will see a male dog jump ontop of a male dog that could look like it is doing somthing nasty. The dog though will not have an erection which would defeat its atepmts at doing that somthing. It will most often will be a sign showing the other dog lets play chase or sniff each others butt. And in the wild, when a moose jumps ontop of anouther moose it is a singal of masculenity. The one ontop is the "alpha male". But once again, there is no ecrection which would make the homosexual intercourse impossible.

So besides the bible there are plenty of ways showing that homo-sexuality is wrong and unnatural.

I dont hate the gay person I hate there actions. Even though they have chosen themselfs to become a homosexual for some odd reason. (Maybe rejection from the other sex all through life, but it is definently not a born illness or chemical imbalance.)

Scott[/quote]

If you don't believe in Heavan or Hell, well then, there really is no point to our measly existance anyways, so why not go do whatever we want?[/quote]

I pity you for being unable to conceive of any possible motivation beyond that very simplistic 'stick and carrot' view of the world. :roll:

It simple, when God created the world he created Adam and Eve not Adam and Even or Adam and Steven.

key in the key hole. Thats all there is to it.

Since this is the what reasons apart from the bible are there for homosexuality being wrong, can I assume you will tell us about non-biblical literature that tells us of God creating Adam and Eve?

Sure but I also gave anouther anology, key in the keyhole. I think its self explainitory.

And they are right in it is unnature. You never see a gay dog, or a gay cat.

Yea some times you will see a male dog jump ontop of a male dog that could look like it is doing somthing nasty. The dog though will not have an erection which would defeat its atepmts at doing that somthing. It will most often will be a sign showing the other dog lets play chase or sniff each others butt. And in the wild, when a moose jumps ontop of anouther moose it is a singal of masculenity. The one ontop is the "alpha male". But once again, there is no ecrection which would make the homosexual intercourse impossible.

So besides the bible there are plenty of ways showing that homo-sexuality is wrong and unnatural.

I dont hate the gay person I hate there actions. Even though they have chosen themselfs to become a homosexual for some odd reason. (Maybe rejection from the other sex all through life, but it is definently not a born illness or chemical imbalance.)

Indeed it is. However, I don't believe it's true.

Except you do see gay animals. I gave ten links on page 2 as reference.

It simple, when God created the world he created Adam and Eve not Adam and Even or Adam and Steven.

key in the key hole. Thats all there is to it.

Since this is the what reasons apart from the bible are there for homosexuality being wrong, can I assume you will tell us about non-biblical literature that tells us of God creating Adam and Eve?

Sure but I also gave anouther anology, key in the keyhole. I think its self explainitory.

And they are right in it is unnature. You never see a gay dog, or a gay cat.Yea some times you will see a male dog jump ontop of a male dog that could look like it is doing somthing nasty. The dog though will not have an erection which would defeat its atepmts at doing that somthing. It will most often will be a sign showing the other dog lets play chase or sniff each others butt

And in the wild, when a moose jumps ontop of anouther moose it is a singal of masculenity. The one ontop is the "alpha male". But once again, there is no ecrection which would make the homosexual intercourse impossible.

So besides the bible there are plenty of ways showing that homo-sexuality is wrong and unnatural.

I dont hate the gay person I hate there actions. Even though they have chosen themselfs to become a homosexual for some odd reason. (Maybe rejection from the other sex all through life, but it is definently not a born illness or chemical imbalance.)


There *are *gay animals- see the half a dozen or so links to sites on the subject on the second page of this thread.

'Yea some times you will see a male dog jump ontop of a male dog that could look like it is doing somthing nasty. The dog though will not have an erection which would defeat its atepmts at doing that somthing. It will most often will be a sign showing the other dog lets play chase or sniff each others butt.'

I can speak from experience here, I have seen my male dog and another male dog having sex, and that is definately what they were doing. Not only did it have a erection but it left a trail of semen on my dog's black fur. Gross, but true.

As to the 'key in a keyhole' analogy- I take it the point you're trying to make is that homosexuality is supposedely unnatural because it involves using the sex organs for a purpose other than that which they were apparently designed for. (I borrow this counter argument from a philosopher whose name i've forgotten, sorry)

A screwdriver is designed to put in or take out screws. It does this job very well. However, if I wanted to open a tin of paint I could also use the screwdriver to lever open the tin. This would be using the tool for something other than its designated purpose. Is that immoral? It doesn't hurt the screwdriver or the paint tin and it gets the job done :wink:

I have a question for you though... a paradox Socrates came up with:

Either:
A)Good actions are good because God says so.
*Whatever* God decides is good is right, if God decided rape was good then it would be.

The only difference between God and us is that he has the power to enforce his whims, and in theory if we were to become more powerful we could make God obey us instead.


OR

B) Good actions are good independantly of God
In which case, we can have morals independantly of God

God is bound by the same moral code as we are, and so smiting sinners would constitute murder.

Either way, we are morally equal to God, so why worship him?

If we substitute for "God" some other powerful possible causes for moral impulse, such as "Our Psyches" or "Society" the logic remains but he argument (devoid of emotional religious overtones) evolves differently.

If our psyches or society should be the source of our moral impulses and if they chose to tell us murder was good we would probably not even be aware of any change, we would just accept it as "natural".

If we can make moral decisions independently from our psyches or society we are the moral equal to these influences, but would not lightly disregard them even so.

ok so i can come up and kill u and ur gay partner.
No, that would be immoral. (If I had a gay partner)
IT NOT WORNG TO ME!!
And Himmler thought killing Jews was a good thing. Didn't make it so.
ur thinking is WRONGWhose thinking? You don't appear to be rebutting anyone.

A screwdriver is designed to put in or take out screws. It does this job very well. However, if I wanted to open a tin of paint I could also use the screwdriver to lever open the tin. This would be using the tool for something other than its designated purpose.
As a tangent, I once saw a screwdriver designed for opening tins of paint and similar activities advertized in a Lee Valley catalogue. (I'm sure it was also good at driving screws). To reverse the metaphor, gay sex might be one of the things our genitals were designed for. But, as you pointed out, this has nothing to do with its morality.

Heres a thought...

If homosexuality is "unnatural"....why is it that a man can have an orgasm by having his prostate massaged by anal penetration?

A little graphic...but true nonetheless.

Its simple.

People are afraid of things they dont understand.

People hate, that wich they fear.

People hate homosexuals, becuase they dont understand them.

Thing is...

The more "Bible America" gets to know homosexuals...the more they realize that there really isnt much to afraid of.

The bible was pounded into these peoples heads from before most of them could walk...they think that anything that goes against it, especialliy when it gives them a target for their hatred and fear......is evil.

"The bible was pounded into these people heads from before most of them could walk" now unless you have a couple thousands examples that all people who are christians and at the same time denounce homosexuality, are ignorant and brainwashed- this sentence is filled with crap. Allot of christians don't hate homosexuals...they hate homosexuality...i have friends who are homosexuals- i am a christian- i just don't like what they do. Again don't say stupid, idtiotic things like that - there are also allot of christians who choose to believe in God after university. ye i know, hard to believe isn't it? but its true...and i know actually more of those type of christians than those who were born into a christian family.

"There are in holes and out holes..."

"There are in holes and out holes..."

more accurately, there are a couple of multi-function holes.

"There are in holes and out holes..."

more accurately, there are a couple of multi-function holes.Then there's the vagina which is also an out hole...

Its simple.

People are afraid of things they dont understand.

People hate, that wich they fear.

People hate homosexuals, becuase they dont understand them.

Thing is...

The more "Bible America" gets to know homosexuals...the more they realize that there really isnt much to afraid of.

The bible was pounded into these peoples heads from before most of them could walk...they think that anything that goes against it, especialliy when it gives them a target for their hatred and fear......is evil.

"The bible was pounded into these people heads from before most of them could walk" now unless you have a couple thousands examples that all people who are christians and at the same time denounce homosexuality, are ignorant and brainwashed- this sentence is filled with crap. Allot of christians don't hate homosexuals...they hate homosexuality...i have friends who are homosexuals- i am a christian- i just don't like what they do. Again don't say stupid, idtiotic things like that - there are also allot of christians who choose to believe in God after university. ye i know, hard to believe isn't it? but its true...and i know actually more of those type of christians than those who were born into a christian family.

Are you denying that Christianity is usually ingrained upon children, thererfore jading thier thoughts on the matter?

whos being "stupid" adn "idiotic" now?

Or was it that you know perfectly well that Im making valid points, and dont like to admit it?

The FACT is.....if you hate homosexuality.....its going to sway your opinions of the people who practice it....and you know it.

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.

Its simple.

People are afraid of things they dont understand.

People hate, that wich they fear.

People hate homosexuals, becuase they dont understand them.

Thing is...

The more "Bible America" gets to know homosexuals...the more they realize that there really isnt much to afraid of.

The bible was pounded into these peoples heads from before most of them could walk...they think that anything that goes against it, especialliy when it gives them a target for their hatred and fear......is evil.

"The bible was pounded into these people heads from before most of them could walk" now unless you have a couple thousands examples that all people who are christians and at the same time denounce homosexuality, are ignorant and brainwashed- this sentence is filled with crap. Allot of christians don't hate homosexuals...they hate homosexuality...i have friends who are homosexuals- i am a christian- i just don't like what they do. Again don't say stupid, idtiotic things like that - there are also allot of christians who choose to believe in God after university. ye i know, hard to believe isn't it? but its true...and i know actually more of those type of christians than those who were born into a christian family.

Are you denying that Christianity is usually ingrained upon children, thererfore jading thier thoughts on the matter?

whos being "stupid" adn "idiotic" now?

Or was it that you know perfectly well that Im making valid points, and dont like to admit it?

The FACT is.....if you hate homosexuality.....its going to sway your opinions of the people who practice it....and you know it.

Starting from the bottom working up...

the fact is - what you said about homosexuality "swaying" my opinion...it doesnt...cuz i think lying, stealing, cheating is alll wrong- and yet everyone does that at least once in there life- Christians and Athiest alike..that doesn't mean i go around disliking everyone. Ever heard of tolerance?

I dont think your making valid points- lol

and if you read what i wrote- u'll notice i didn't call anyone an idiot or stupid- i said-what you said was stupid and idiotic. Thats completely different. If you still think i did-your wrong because i don't think you either.

and real christian parents do let their kids goto sunday school. correct. but theres got to be a time when those kids have got to make a choice for themselves whether they want to follow Christ and become christians. My uncle for example chose not to. I did. and what do you mean "jading" are you saying theres a bunch of christian 11 year olds on this site claiming homosexuality is wrong?

and what do you mean "jading" are you saying theres a bunch of christian 11 year olds on this site claiming homosexuality is wrong?

Are we talking about the same Nationstates General forum??

As for Christianity.....
Yes..I very much believe that most people who are brought up in a christian home.....and who are taught to believe that homosexuality is wrong...will develop similar beliefs.

We tend to believe what we are taught to.....thus "Sunday SCHOOL."

Some dont.....'
Im myself was brought up Lutheran..but I became an athiest when I was old enough to think for myself.

The same principle works for politics......
Most people with republican parents...will have republican children

If you are taught to believe that "Jews are filthy, dirty evil people".....you tend to believe that swill as well...

I want to know what makes wrongness gay myself.

Jim SC

Why do you make assumptions about other people?

I have never cheated or stolen. I'm not bragging, it just happens to be true.

I have lied, but only to protect others. Still, I know it's wrong.

But these can't be behaviors that"everyone" indulges in.

On the topic: I want gay people to have all necessary rights, including marriage for those who want it. It personally repulses me on esthetic grounds; what's called the "Ewww" factor. That is a personal reaction that cannot influence my position on laws or morality.

maybe cos its not natural, where else in nature do you see "gayness"? and dont give me that crap that its cos we are more advanced that we can allow it!!! its not supposed to happen. the purpose of any animal (including humans) is to recreate and ensure survival of their race. u cant do that being gay

maybe cos its not natural, where else in nature do you see "gayness"? and dont give me that crap that its cos we are more advanced that we can allow it!!! its not supposed to happen. the purpose of any animal (including humans) is to recreate and ensure survival of their race. u cant do that being gay

and yet...

If you had bothered to read any of the other posts....you would have noticed many people providing several links to instances of recorded homosexual animal behavior.

According to my dad who is an Episcopal priest (yes, we're the ones with the gay bishop) our conservative side of the argument says that homosexuality is wrong because it hurts the participants. Gay people live an average of 20 years less than straight people. 20 years! We don't want people to go around and stab themselves with knives or drink 20 cans of beer. Those things hurt people and shorten their lives potentially. The same goes with homosexuality.

As for the gay bishop, I really don't like him because he's not being a bishop to serve God. He's doing it to get publicity. So is the Presiding Bishop. I read an article in USA Today saying that Gene Robinson won't go around the US talking because he has other plans. Other plans doen't mean helping his diocese.

Also, taking quotes from Ancient Greeks about homosexuality or religeon isn't very fair because they were all gay and basically atheist (at least the philosiphers)

maybe cos its not natural, where else in nature do you see "gayness"? and dont give me that crap that its cos we are more advanced that we can allow it!!! its not supposed to happen. the purpose of any animal (including humans) is to recreate and ensure survival of their race. u cant do that being gay

But, obviously, one can do that in utter ignorance of the factuality of one's own thought processes.

There is ample proof of homosexual behavior in animals, just as there is of stupid people breeding and filling our society with idiots. Your understanding of that which is "natural" is as uninformed as it is unoriginal.

Also, taking quotes from Ancient Greeks about homosexuality or religeon isn't very fair because they were all gay and basically atheist (at least the philosiphers)

WHAT???

Have you ever heard of Zeus?

Gay animals. :lol:
That's funny. "Don't be gay, Sparky! Don't be gay! Bad dog! Dumb gay dog." :lol:

There are exceptions to every rule. There are mutations in every species. Everything has an opposite. All these things occur naturally, so it's obviously not "unnatural". My only complaint is the ones that try to push their lifestyle onto others. Like people who go around trying to prove that everyone is bisexual, for example. That crap is un called for, and no good can come of it.

no i didnt bother to read the others im bored and so go by my last point then, reproduction

According to my dad who is an Episcopal priest (yes, we're the ones with the gay bishop) our conservative side of the argument says that homosexuality is wrong because it hurts the participants. Gay people live an average of 20 years less than straight people. 20 years! We don't want people to go around and stab themselves with knives or drink 20 cans of beer. Those things hurt people and shorten their lives potentially. The same goes with homosexuality.

As for the gay bishop, I really don't like him because he's not being a bishop to serve God. He's doing it to get publicity. So is the Presiding Bishop. I read an article in USA Today saying that Gene Robinson won't go around the US talking because he has other plans. Other plans doen't mean helping his diocese.

Also, taking quotes from Ancient Greeks about homosexuality or religeon isn't very fair because they were all gay and basically atheist (at least the philosiphers)

One reason the Greeks killed Socrates was because of his supposed "atheism".

Maybe if gays were accepted and had full rights they'd be less inclined to be self destructive, do you think? Certainly these folks who want to get married do not seem to want to tear up the night life scene. But if you do not let them marry, they just may have to.

Also, taking quotes from Ancient Greeks about homosexuality or religeon isn't very fair because they were all gay and basically atheist (at least the philosiphers)

WHAT???

Have you ever heard of Zeus?

I said "basically". The gods of Olympus were imperfect and unomnipotent. They may as well have been human kings of Greece who could shoot lightning bolts at people. And I was mostly pointing to the philosiphers*sp*
(damn I screwed that up)

Also, taking quotes from Ancient Greeks about homosexuality or religeon isn't very fair because they were all gay and basically atheist (at least the philosiphers)

WHAT???

Have you ever heard of Zeus?

I said "basically". The gods of Olympus were imperfect and unomnipotent. They may as well have been human kings of Greece who could shoot lightning bolts at people. And I was mostly pointing to the philosiphers*sp*
(damn I screwed that up)

very well...

Give me the complete list of Ancient Greek Philosphers that you can point to as being gay.

I'll start you off...

Plato.
(thats NOT Mickey Mouses dog)

It's not that they're willingly self-destructive. It's that they contract disease much more easily. That's one of the reasons AIDS is so common, and existant.

Hi all,

I've noticed three points that I thought I'd bring up:

1) Societies that legalise homosexuality fall because of moral degradation.

As far as I know America has never had any law against homosexuality and it's lasted a good few centuries, while being the world's only remaining superpower. Most of Europe has fully legalised homosexuality and is doing very well.

2) It's the biology of the human body. The penis fits into the vagina.

Well CPR is no more un-physiological than homosexual sex (which need not be anal, incidentally.) Take organ transplants and antibiotics as another example- they invlolve instruments that aren't even parts of our bodies! There's no way that homosexual sex is wrong because it's not physiological, while at the same time lifesaving actions (like CPR) are right.

3) Morals are dictated to believers through a religious text.

I've got no problem understanding that someone can follow a set of rules from a book reasoably well, but I wonder what happens when a moral decison falls outside the scenarios covered in the bible. For example, is it right to research an area of science if you don't knwow whether it's going to cause more good than bad?

There are loads of other points floating about, but I think people have "grabbed" all the other imortant ones and dealt with them properly.

Aidan

no i didnt bother to read the others im bored and so go by my last point then, reproduction

Gays are perfectly capable of reproduction.

just ask David Crosby.

I can't think of any philosiphers, but I can think of basically every non-Helot Spartan man.

"Gay people live an average of 20 years less than straight people. 20 years!"

Where's the source for this? I've never heard anything about this before...

Aidan

I can't think of any philosiphers, but I can think of basically every non-Helot Spartan man.

So...

You say that we shouldnt take any words from the Anceint Greek Philosophers about homosexuality.....because they were all gay...but you cant name even ONE?

I think your out of your depth.

Gay animals. :lol:
That's funny. "Don't be gay, Sparky! Don't be gay! Bad dog! Dumb gay dog." :lol:

...My only complaint is the ones that try to push their lifestyle onto others...

LOL at the Southpark reference, it's a classic episode!

Anyway, the main point being about pushing lifestyles onto people... Straight people push straight lifestyles onto society everywhere. Consider a gay person growing up who sees straight people in the streets holding hands, straight love stories in the media, and straight people getting more civil rights (the ones that come with marriage, there are lots of them.) Is that not pushing a heterosexual lifestyle on a homosexual person?

Aidan

First off, I was talking about the Greeks in general. I surrender to that argument. By me, use all the Greek Philosipher quotes you can find. I'm tired of misspelling it anyways.

My source is my dad who read it in the book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth on chapter 3. I can't find an internet source though so your going to have to trust me :lol:

Oh and I saw your joke about Plato a bit late :roll:

Anyways, I know who he was, I just don't know a whole lot of Greek history.

and what do you mean "jading" are you saying theres a bunch of christian 11 year olds on this site claiming homosexuality is wrong?

Are we talking about the same Nationstates General forum??

As for Christianity.....
Yes..I very much believe that most people who are brought up in a christian home.....and who are taught to believe that homosexuality is wrong...will develop similar beliefs.

We tend to believe what we are taught to.....thus "Sunday SCHOOL."

Some dont.....'
Im myself was brought up Lutheran..but I became an athiest when I was old enough to think for myself.

The same principle works for politics......
Most people with republican parents...will have republican children

If you are taught to believe that "Jews are filthy, dirty evil people".....you tend to believe that swill as well...

who knows- thats what it sounded like you.

some do, some don't...that means what you said in the begining is off track.
I rest my case.

My source is my dad who read it in the book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth on chapter 3. I can't find an internet source though so your going to have to trust me :lol:

Well, books like that don't usually do their own surveys. Either it's from a census, or someone's gone out and surveyed a load of people, and then the survey has been quoted. Whether I not I trust you or your dad is irrelevant, given that I don't trust a book called "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" to be unbiased with what it quotes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being awkward here for the sake of it. I really like Michael Moore's work, but I've never seen any of statistics backed up by anything, which is a real shame, because the sorts of things he throws around can be very persuasive.

I'll do a quick Google on it and get back to you in a few mins...

Right, here's what I found http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/ha031901.asp

However, the survey relates to the use of safe sex. Being gay doesn't instantly lower a man's life expectancy, but having unprotected sex does. The issue in this thread is about homosexuality, not promiscuity.

Furthermore, are there any similar statistics for lesbians? As far as I know lesbian sex is the safest sex around, so maybe all women should abandon men and live to a ripe old age!

Aidan

Not at all....

What I said is perfectly true.

Most of them do.

if the book is credible it will sight the sources for its stats in an apendix or somewhere in the book (usually at the end)

I did a Yahoo! search and got some forums with Christians and Atheists debating and some porn.... I decided not to post any of the stuff I found.

Not at all....

What I said is perfectly true.

Most of them do.
I have no clue what you were replying to so I'm asking if your replying to something I said.

"There are in holes and out holes..."


Babies and menstrual blood come out of vaginas, so is the vagina an in hole or an out hole? :P

I really like Michael Moore's work, but I've never seen any of statistics backed up by anything, which is a real shame, because the sorts of things he throws around can be very persuasive.

I happen to have a borrowed copy of "dude..wheres my country" in front of me....would you like me to quote some sources for you?

Well I must end this. My parents are getting mad at me and saying things like I need to go to bed early (4:00) to get in "training" for school....

I really like Michael Moore's work, but I've never seen any of statistics backed up by anything, which is a real shame, because the sorts of things he throws around can be very persuasive.

I happen to have a borrowed copy of "dude..wheres my country" in front of me....would you like me to quote some sources for you?

Sure! :D I haven't managed to get a copy yet, and Stupid White Men isn't particularly useful...

Aidan

And no, I'm not 11 years old :lol:

According to my dad who is an Episcopal priest (yes, we're the ones with the gay bishop) our conservative side of the argument says that homosexuality is wrong because it hurts the participants. Gay people live an average of 20 years less than straight people. )

Please provide a source to verify this (I mean scientific research, not 'my dad says so)

'We don't want people to go around and stab themselves with knives or drink 20 cans of beer. Those things hurt people and shorten their lives potentially. The same goes with homosexuality. )

Stabbing yourself or drinking excessively is a choice, being gay is not.



Also, taking quotes from Ancient Greeks about homosexuality or religeon isn't very fair because they were all gay and basically atheist (at least the philosiphers)

So, taking quotes from someone who disagrees with you because they have a different perspective on things 'isn't fair'? :roll: Grow up!

The Ancient Greeks were NOT 'all gay' (not even the philosophers), and it was not an atheist society, they worshipped their own pantheon of Gods

no i didnt bother to read the others im bored and so go by my last point then, reproduction

Lots of straight people can't, or don't want to have children. Does that make them 'immoral'?

Pardon, but would you read all of my replies before you go criticizing me. People change their minds, like gay people...

And please, go tell the socialists that life isn't fair and that they should grow up!

Furthermore, are there any similar statistics for lesbians? As far as I know lesbian sex is the safest sex around, so maybe all women should abandon men and live to a ripe old age!

Yes, that's true. Lesbians do it safer than everyone. Also, they really don't need men as long as they can clone. You only need eggs to clone. That's why men keep their guns! 8)

Good night!

It's not that they're willingly self-destructive. It's that they contract disease much more easily. That's one of the reasons AIDS is so common, and existant.

Contract disease more easily? And your scientific evidence for this would be... what exactly?

Gay animals. :lol:
That's funny. "Don't be gay, Sparky! Don't be gay! Bad dog! Dumb gay dog." :lol:

...My only complaint is the ones that try to push their lifestyle onto others...

LOL at the Southpark reference, it's a classic episode!

Anyway, the main point being about pushing lifestyles onto people... Straight people push straight lifestyles onto society everywhere. Consider a gay person growing up who sees straight people in the streets holding hands, straight love stories in the media, and straight people getting more civil rights (the ones that come with marriage, there are lots of them.) Is that not pushing a heterosexual lifestyle on a homosexual person?

Aidan
I don't condone anyone pushing their lifestyle on anyone. My idea of a heterosexual doing this is, for example, when they say that everyone is born "straight", but some choose to become "gay". That's like saying that everyone is born with two nipples, but some people choose to grow a third.

The only one of your examples that fits what I'm talking about was the one about civil rights. There is no reason not to allow all citizens the same rights.

I really like Michael Moore's work, but I've never seen any of statistics backed up by anything, which is a real shame, because the sorts of things he throws around can be very persuasive.

I happen to have a borrowed copy of "dude..wheres my country" in front of me....would you like me to quote some sources for you?

Sure! :D I haven't managed to get a copy yet, and Stupid White Men isn't particularly useful...

Aidan

Theres an entire chapter 27 pages, at the end of the book called "Notes and sources"

He quotes news papers, television programs.....Gallup Polls....you name it.
In fact.....almost every statement he makes regarding events are taken from articles done by news reports, and not liberal ones.
he even quotes fox News a couple times.

He outlines every chapter of the book, and quotes the sources from the statements he makes.

Heres just a few..(like I said theres 27 pages of them)

www.whitehouse.gov..
the Gallup Org.
Harris Poll.
Washington Post.
Wall street Journal
USA Today.
Harvard University..
National Opinion Research center...
L.A times.
ABC News.
and even Fox News.

Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

Gay animals. :lol:
That's funny. "Don't be gay, Sparky! Don't be gay! Bad dog! Dumb gay dog." :lol:

...My only complaint is the ones that try to push their lifestyle onto others...

LOL at the Southpark reference, it's a classic episode!

Anyway, the main point being about pushing lifestyles onto people... Straight people push straight lifestyles onto society everywhere. Consider a gay person growing up who sees straight people in the streets holding hands, straight love stories in the media, and straight people getting more civil rights (the ones that come with marriage, there are lots of them.) Is that not pushing a heterosexual lifestyle on a homosexual person?

Aidan
I don't condone anyone pushing their lifestyle on anyone. My idea of a heterosexual doing this is, for example, when they say that everyone is born "straight", but some choose to become "gay". That's like saying that everyone is born with two nipples, but some people choose to grow a third.

The only one of your examples that fits what I'm talking about was the one about civil rights. There is no reason not to allow all citizens the same rights.

Just to clarify, at what point does someone "push their lifestyle"? Is it different for homosexuals and heterosexuals? My point is that about 99% of western culture is heterosexual, but 99% of the population ain't.

As for civil rights, I couldn't agree more! :)

Aidan

Not at all....

What I said is perfectly true.

Most of them do.

You have no proof...or do you have some statistic thats come from who knows where. Just saying most of them do...doesn't make it fact. Some goes for me...so ill shut up too. But what you said is still invalid.

Not at all....

What I said is perfectly true.

Most of them do.

You have no proof...or do you have some statistic thats come from who knows where. Just saying most of them do...doesn't make it fact. Some goes for me...so ill shut up too. But what you said is still invalid.

Its only invalid becuase you choose to disagree

It's nearly 10:30 on this side of the pond, so I'm off to buy a copy of "Dude, where's my country"!

Later,

Aidan

Not at all....

What I said is perfectly true.

Most of them do.

You have no proof...or do you have some statistic thats come from who knows where. Just saying most of them do...doesn't make it fact. Some goes for me...so ill shut up too. But what you said is still invalid.

Its only invalid becuase you choose to disagree

It's invalid because you don't have proof.

Barring Biblical realted issues,

The Human race was designed by the random hand of evolution to be a two gendered species, now this is so as to perpetuate the species and keep us here, well, Homosexuals cannot reproduce and add nothing to the gene pool or to the population therefore they are biologically wrong,

Personally I dont have any opinion one way or the other, so long as they respect my rights not be gay.

Loop

There is no such thing as biologically wrong. nature, i apologize for making the terrible mistake of adressing it as a person or something with feelings, is by definition indifferent. In your opinion a woman or a man that has been born with genes that make her/him infertile is biologically wrong. Or let's talk about ants, one of the most succesful animals around. Only one very little percentile of the ants has the capability to reproduce themselves, but that doesn't make the other ants 'wrong'.

Well, I must admit, right off, that I'm not a homosexual, nor do in anyway condone their actions. As for the comment of "Bible America" and thier future "coming around," I don't suspect this will ever happen. The Bible, for those of us who believe it, tells us in Romans 1, among other places that men loving men and women loving women goes against nature and is wrong. I follow this belief. And if you feel that the Bible is wrong in this, tough. Don't expect Christians to change the way they are to suit you, just as you don't feel that Christians should expect you to become strait again.
I, however, also do not condone people discriminating because of sexual preference. I have homosexual friends, and though they all know that I despise thier actions, that I don't hold that against them.
As for whether or not it's natural, I would hope that it's pretty clear that it isn't. If it were natural, then we'd be set up anatomically for this, and it would have a long history. Very rarely do we hear about people throughout history being homosexuals, and I'm one who studies history in his free time quite often.
Also, as to homosexuality happening in animals, I've never heard of this. Not ever. If someone has any information on this issue, and feels compelled to enlighten me, then please do.
Another thought on whether or not it's natural: the most recent "physical reason" that would "cause" one to be a homosexual is the size of the Amigdala(or however it's spelled) in the brain. However, a person who was once a homosexual, but not longer is has a normal sized Amigdala again, and therefore when one choses to be strait again, the "physical reason" goes away.
Take my comments for what you will. I hope I have shown you a new perspective somehow, please feel free to return the favor.

1. Many Christians do not stick with what the highest members of the church proclaim. Many already see no problem with gay marriage, and that is increasing. On a few issues in recent history, churches have changed positions when it became obvious that the flock wasn't following them anymore. So, it could happen.
2. If you think homosexuality doesn't have a long history, you are sadly misinformed. It is certainly older than Christianity. :)
3. With regard to animals, again, you lack information. Its is out there if you care to do the research. Particularly, the primates, who we are closest to genetically, engage in every manner of sexual activity that the church condemns. Google "homosexuality in primates".
4. You are claiming that switching back and forth between home- and hetero-sexuality causes the amygdala to grow and shrink? That's a new one on me. Care to cite *that* research? All evidence I've ever seen was that brain structure caused sexuality, not vice-versa.

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.What do you mean propganda? The writings of over 69 seperate authors is hardly propoganda. It may be sometimes used that way, but the bible is no more propganda than The Origon of Species.

Hi all,

I've noticed three points that I thought I'd bring up:

1) Societies that legalise homosexuality fall because of moral degradation.

As far as I know America has never had any law against homosexuality and it's lasted a good few centuries, while being the world's only remaining superpower. Most of Europe has fully legalised homosexuality and is doing very well.

Aidan

Actually, until recently Texas had an anti-sodomy law. It was finally challenged by two gays who were caught red-handed (though something elso was probably red too :wink: ).

Thought I'd bring that up.

what do animals being gay have to do with this?

Yes, honestly it doesn't. Your question was, other than the Bible, what is wrong with homosexuality. Well its already answered. Nothing. I'm not going to lie to you, because I'm Christian and I supposedly "hate" all gays. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Outside of the Bible, there are no morals. Therefor, Man decides what's right and wrong. So you see, if you don't believe in the Bible, I can't help that. It is a tragedy, but its not my job to change that. So if you believe not in the Bible, nothing is wrong with it. Now myself believing in the Bible, I believe it is wrong, why? Because God said so. Pretty plain and simple. If you decide to not believe in God, I can't change it. So therefor, in your eyes, you are sticking to your morals. It still is very sad though.

:roll: You are quite wrong in saying that 'outside of the Bible there are no morals'. Christians are NOT the only people in the world with morals. Many people of other religions, philosophies and ways of thinking have their own moral codes, which may be similar to, or completely different from Christian morals. You may not agree with these moral codes, but it is idiotic to simply deny that they exist in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

It seems I am being called a liar and a hypocrit again. Read my words carefully. "Therefor man must decide what is right and wrong." Do you know what a moral is? It is a defining term of what is right and wrong. What I said is without the Bible, man must make his own morals, rather than use the ones God laid out for us. Its just that simple. Because I did not say the word moral, does not mean I did not use its definition. If I say stealing, does it not also mean, taking something that doesn't belong to me? Do you see me looking for any minor discrepensy in each one of your posts, looking for something I could mold into hipocrisy? No. I don't need to. I know I'm right, because I am speaking to you that of which God is. As Mark Twain put it "Men do not fear the Bible because it contradicts itself, the fear it because it contradicts them."


Oh and for the rest of you that are uncomfortable with me here? Get used to it. I'm here for the long run 8).

I didn't call you a liar and a hypocrit, I called you an idiot. :wink:
Ok, I misunderstood you, my bad. I have *not* been looking through your posts for ammunition to call you a hypocrit- I have nothing against you personally, nor against Christians (I used to be one myself). I just saw that one line and went off half c0cked. After all, you did actually use the words 'outside of the Bible, there are no morals' which was a rather misleading statement. If you're going to get so ticked off if people misunderstand you try writing more clearly!

You also discounted the possibility that some other religion may in fact be right. If your God doesn't exist, but, say, the Goddess Wiccans worship does, then morals would not come from your God, but they would still not just be made up by people.

I have a question for you though... a paradox Socrates came up with:

Either:
A)Good actions are good because God says so.
*Whatever* God decides is good is right, if God decided rape was good then it would be.

The only difference between God and us is that he has the power to enforce his whims, and in theory if we were to become more powerful we could make God obey us instead.


OR

B) Good actions are good independantly of God
In which case, we can have morals independantly of God

God is bound by the same moral code as we are, and so smiting sinners would constitute murder.

Either way, we are morally equal to God, so why worship him?

Bump

The Christians always seem to ignore this argument :P

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.What do you mean propganda? The writings of over 69 seperate authors is hardly propoganda. It may be sometimes used that way, but the bible is no more propganda than The Origon of Species.

So, when exactly, has the Origin of the Species been used for political purposes?

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.What do you mean propganda? The writings of over 69 seperate authors is hardly propoganda. It may be sometimes used that way, but the bible is no more propganda than The Origon of Species.

So, when exactly, has the Origin of the Species been used for political purposes?

It has more than likely been used in the cases where courts tried to ban schools from not teaching evolution or vice versa.

And the reason that people do worship God(s)(ess)(esses) is because He/She/It/They are more powerful than us. They created us and cause things to happen. Whether or not we are morally equal matters not. It is because He could smite us at any minute :twisted:

Nothing really makes it wrong. Unfortunately, when a minority differs from the majority, well, then everyone thinks the minority is wrong. It doesn't matter what the minority is, they'll always be in the wrong in society.

That, my friend, is because society sucks.

As for whether or not it's natural, I would hope that it's pretty clear that it isn't. If it were natural, then we'd be set up anatomically for this, and it would have a long history. Very rarely do we hear about people throughout history being homosexuals, and I'm one who studies history in his free time quite often.

Have you actually read history? Study Roman or Greek history (the earliest that we have extensive cultural references to. Not to mention that it wouldn't be in the law of Moses if people weren't doing it. And how long ago was that? In Roman society, love between two men was considered to be a higher form of love than that between two women, from what I've read. Of course, this at least partially has to do with the status of women in that society, but it is an interesting fact especially when compared to dophins. Besides, anatomically we are set up for lots of ways to receive sexual pleasure. Vaginal insertion isn't the only way to do it, you know.

Also, as to homosexuality happening in animals, I've never heard of this. Not ever. If someone has any information on this issue, and feels compelled to enlighten me, then please do.

Do a quick pubmed search. Or, if you like, get a copy of Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemihl. You will find that homosexuality (and transgender) is a much more common natural occurence than you think. Biological Exuberance focuses almost completely on birds and mammals, and it is still the size of a textbook. Here's an interesting reference for you, researchers have never seen heterosexual mating of giraffes in the wild. They have seen male giraffes mount other males. Dolphins don't form life-long heterosexual pairs, but do form life-long homosexual pairs. And, in birds, it is not all that uncommon for a male-male lifelong pair to raise chicks together. Check it out.

Another thought on whether or not it's natural: the most recent "physical reason" that would "cause" one to be a homosexual is the size of the Amigdala(or however it's spelled) in the brain. However, a person who was once a homosexual, but not longer is has a normal sized Amigdala again, and therefore when one choses to be strait again, the "physical reason" goes away.

Reference? Most researchers (at least from a quick pubmed search) seem to think that there is a physical link between hormones you receive during fetal development contribute to sexuality.

Double post

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.What do you mean propganda? The writings of over 69 seperate authors is hardly propoganda. It may be sometimes used that way, but the bible is no more propganda than The Origon of Species.

So, when exactly, has the Origin of the Species been used for political purposes?

It has more than likely been used in the cases where courts tried to ban schools from not teaching evolution or vice versa.

And the reason that people do worship God(s)(ess)(esses) is because He/She/It/They are more powerful than us. They created us and cause things to happen. Whether or not we are morally equal matters not. It is because He could smite us at any minute :twisted:

Yeah, that was kinda my point. It all comes down to fear. But fear isn't a reason to love or admire, or aspire to be like God, the way most Christians say they do. I'm interested to hear who they can explain or justify this.

With regards to The Origin of the Species, the book itself was not being used to push a specific political agenda.

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.What do you mean propganda? The writings of over 69 seperate authors is hardly propoganda. It may be sometimes used that way, but the bible is no more propganda than The Origon of Species.

So, when exactly, has the Origin of the Species been used for political purposes?

It has more than likely been used in the cases where courts tried to ban schools from not teaching evolution or vice versa.

And the reason that people do worship God(s)(ess)(esses) is because He/She/It/They are more powerful than us. They created us and cause things to happen. Whether or not we are morally equal matters not. It is because He could smite us at any minute :twisted:

Yeah, that was kinda my point. It all comes down to fear. But fear isn't a reason to love or admire, or aspire to be like God, the way most Christians say they do. I'm interested to hear who they can explain or justify this.

With regards to The Origin of the Species, the book itself was not being used to push a specific political agenda.

About the fear thing, I have no clue. I never really understood the Greek philosiphers too much (too much abstract thinking for me :oops: )

As for the Origin of Species, but neither was the Bible. It was used to push a religeous/philisphical agenda. Whether or not that is political depends on who you talk to. But, it wasn't being used to create a nation or overthrow the Roman Empire. People just used it for very bad reasons.

Just to clarify, at what point does someone "push their lifestyle"? Is it different for homosexuals and heterosexuals? My point is that about 99% of western culture is heterosexual, but 99% of the population ain't.
Don't be silly. Most of the culture is heterosexual because most of the population is heterosexual. I know it pains some people to be told that, but it's a fact. The thing is, heterosexual culture is not being pushed on me while I'm watching Friends any more than homosexual culture is being pushed on me while I'm watching Will and Grace. (Just one lame example.) It's ridiculous. I don't know about you, but my TV has a button on it that allows me to turn it off whenever I choose. I know TV doesn't amount to all of culture, but my point is, you partake of what culture you choose, and no one is forcing you to partake of the rest.

"To clarify", what I'm talking about is when people decide that they need to convince you that you are something other than what you know you are. A heterosexual does this by trying to prove that homosexuality is a choice, rather than something you are born with, for example. A homosexual does this by conducting some pseudoscientific "research" at some liberal university, and claiming proof that every living human is a bisexual, that heterosexuals do not actually exist, for example.

People who think that you need to be taught what your sexual orientation is are trying to push their own preferences on you. What gender you are attracted to is like a natural reflex, and needs no instruction whatsoever. There are people out there who want to educate children in school to be confused about their own sexuality until they are old enough to understand that they were decieved. No good can come of it.

Don't be silly. Most of the culture is heterosexual because most of the population is heterosexual. I know it pains some people to be told that, but it's a fact. The thing is, heterosexual culture is not being pushed on me while I'm watching Friends any more than homosexual culture is being pushed on me while I'm watching Will and Grace. (Just one lame example.) It's ridiculous. I don't know about you, but my TV has a button on it that allows me to turn it off whenever I choose. I know TV doesn't amount to all of culture, but my point is, you partake of what culture you choose, and no one is forcing you to partake of the rest.

What about people who don't want there to be a channel to change to. Many people, in the name of Christian Morality, want to severely limit what TV, Radio, books, etc, are published. If they don't want to see/hear that stuff, fine, but that gives them no right to say that *nobody* can see/hear it.

"To clarify", what I'm talking about is when people decide that they need to convince you that you are something other than what you know you are. A heterosexual does this by trying to prove that homosexuality is a choice, rather than something you are born with, for example. A homosexual does this by conducting some pseudoscientific "research" at some liberal university, and claiming proof that every living human is a bisexual, that heterosexuals do not actually exist, for example.

I know of no homosexuals out there trying to convince heterosexuals that they are homosexual. I've seen research like your talking about, but it merely showed that all people have proportions of (traditional) masculine & feminine personality traits. Altho there are indeed many more people who are bisexual or bi-curious than traditional literature admits of.

People who think that you need to be taught what your sexual orientation is are trying to push their own preferences on you. What gender you are attracted to is like a natural reflex, and needs no instruction whatsoever. There are people out there who want to educate children in school to be confused about their own sexuality until they are old enough to understand that they were decieved. No good can come of it.

Who? I've seen nobody trying to do this. Perhaps somebody wants to teach open, honest evaluation of your own sexuality, which many people fear to do, but who teaches this "confusion"? Sounds like a straw man to me.

1. The bible is nothing but propaganda.

2. In regard to homosexuallity, if you leave me be, i'll leave you be.What do you mean propganda? The writings of over 69 seperate authors is hardly propoganda. It may be sometimes used that way, but the bible is no more propganda than The Origon of Species.

How many wrote it has no bearing. Do you think all the American propaganda (we had plenty) during the Cold War (50 years) was all written by 1 person? No, 100's, if not 1000's.

And the reason that people do worship God(s)(ess)(esses) is because He/She/It/They are more powerful than us. They created us and cause things to happen. Whether or not we are morally equal matters not. It is because He could smite us at any minute :twisted:

That is also why people have worshipped the Sun or the Sky, or the Sea, or a volcano, or {your pick of powerful natural phenomena}. Most such religions have fallen by the wayside, and more religions will in the future. Possibly Christianity.

As for the Origin of Species, but neither was the Bible. It was used to push a religeous/philisphical agenda. Whether or not that is political depends on who you talk to. But, it wasn't being used to create a nation or overthrow the Roman Empire. People just used it for very bad reasons.

Why do you suppose the Pope claims that all Kings/Presidents/etc. should bow down to his will? Its politics. The Roman Catholic church is an empire, altho it's dwindling.

Don't be silly. Most of the culture is heterosexual because most of the population is heterosexual. I know it pains some people to be told that, but it's a fact. The thing is, heterosexual culture is not being pushed on me while I'm watching Friends any more than homosexual culture is being pushed on me while I'm watching Will and Grace. (Just one lame example.) It's ridiculous. I don't know about you, but my TV has a button on it that allows me to turn it off whenever I choose. I know TV doesn't amount to all of culture, but my point is, you partake of what culture you choose, and no one is forcing you to partake of the rest.

What about people who don't want there to be a channel to change to. Many people, in the name of Christian Morality, want to severely limit what TV, Radio, books, etc, are published. If they don't want to see/hear that stuff, fine, but that gives them no right to say that *nobody* can see/hear it.

You mean people like Al Gore, and his nazi wife. Yes, those people are wrong, and anyone who voted for them is either a fellow nazi, or an ignorant fool.

"To clarify", what I'm talking about is when people decide that they need to convince you that you are something other than what you know you are. A heterosexual does this by trying to prove that homosexuality is a choice, rather than something you are born with, for example. A homosexual does this by conducting some pseudoscientific "research" at some liberal university, and claiming proof that every living human is a bisexual, that heterosexuals do not actually exist, for example.

I know of no homosexuals out there trying to convince heterosexuals that they are homosexual. I've seen research like your talking about, but it merely showed that all people have proportions of (traditional) masculine & feminine personality traits. Altho there are indeed many more people who are bisexual or bi-curious than traditional literature admits of.

Ask Our Earth, Bottle, or Anbar about it. They argued with me page after page, insisting that they had scientific proof that I was bisexual, that ALL humans are bisexual. People like that will probably tell you they have proof that Jews are subhuman, and Islam is a religion of peace. :lol:

People who think that you need to be taught what your sexual orientation is are trying to push their own preferences on you. What gender you are attracted to is like a natural reflex, and needs no instruction whatsoever. There are people out there who want to educate children in school to be confused about their own sexuality until they are old enough to understand that they were decieved. No good can come of it.

Who? I've seen nobody trying to do this. Perhaps somebody wants to teach open, honest evaluation of your own sexuality, which many people fear to do, but who teaches this "confusion"? Sounds like a straw man to me.
You will never hear about this stuff from the mainstream media. I wish I could remember some specifics to show you. Maybe links to some articles or something. It was so long ago that I heard about it. My description of it here is a little vague as well, also my own "spin" on it. Another thing I can't prove at the moment is I heard that someone (?) who deals with education in Canada said that Christians should not be allowed to be teachers because they won't "teach homosexuality". I also heard that some gay activist group wants to ban the Christian bible as "hate literature".
I don't blame you if you don't believe me when I tell you these things, because I don't remember where the sources are to prove it, and this crap is pretty extreme, in my opinion.

BUMP

I know of no homosexuals out there trying to convince heterosexuals that they are homosexual. I've seen research like your talking about, but it merely showed that all people have proportions of (traditional) masculine & feminine personality traits. Altho there are indeed many more people who are bisexual or bi-curious than traditional literature admits of.

Ask Our Earth, Bottle, or Anbar about it. They argued with me page after page, insisting that they had scientific proof that I was bisexual, that ALL humans are bisexual. People like that will probably tell you they have proof that Jews are subhuman, and Islam is a religion of peace. :lol:


:roll: wow, that's a more blatant lie than you usually resort to, i am impressed. what happened in the real world was that we pointed out there is scientific evidence showing homophobes to be more often responsive (physically) to homosexual erotica than non-homophobic straight people. nobody tried to tell you what your own sexuality is, though we did pose some possible theories and show you how your positions lined up with the scientific data.

you really need to stop over-estimating your own importance in these discussions...nobody cares who you want to sleep with, baby doll, we're all talking about the actual issue at hand. though i am sure your sex life is utterly fascinating to you, since you bring it up so frequently.

I know of no homosexuals out there trying to convince heterosexuals that they are homosexual. I've seen research like your talking about, but it merely showed that all people have proportions of (traditional) masculine & feminine personality traits. Altho there are indeed many more people who are bisexual or bi-curious than traditional literature admits of.

Ask Our Earth, Bottle, or Anbar about it. They argued with me page after page, insisting that they had scientific proof that I was bisexual, that ALL humans are bisexual. People like that will probably tell you they have proof that Jews are subhuman, and Islam is a religion of peace. :lol:


:roll: wow, that's a more blatant lie than you usually resort to, i am impressed. what happened in the real world was that we pointed out there is scientific evidence showing homophobes to be more often responsive (physically) to homosexual erotica than non-homophobic straight people. nobody tried to tell you what your own sexuality is, though we did pose some possible theories and show you how your positions lined up with the scientific data.

you really need to stop over-estimating your own importance in these discussions...nobody cares who you want to sleep with, baby doll, we're all talking about the actual issue at hand. though i am sure your sex life is utterly fascinating to you, since you bring it up so frequently.
This is pretty much the response that should be anticipated from people like you. I suppose it's possible that you don't realize how badly you've misrepresented the facts, but it's more likely you're just following the same line as always. Always disconnected from reality. Never admit facts, always distort. When you are proven wrong, try to change the subject to squirm out of it. You are one of the worst I've seen, though, at following your line, because all I had to do to get you to stray from that line was agree with you. :lol: Once you decided that you were against me, you just always took the opposite position from me, even if it actually went against your beliefs to do so. Most of the time, you didn't even seem to fully understand what I was saying. Someone named Tuesday Heights summed up one of my old points quite nicely here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=128876
It doesn't matter, though. If you could look past your arrogance for a moment, you'll see that this conversation is not about you. Someone asked me a question, and I answered. That is the extent of "my own importance in this discussion". When someone asks a question, it is common courtesy to answer.

There is a disturbing number of people on this board afflicted with "My Side Can't Be Wrong" syndrome. I, on the other hand, see the obvious wrong on both sides. My biggest problem, though, is how it usually takes at least 30 minutes of struggling to post something that took about 2 minutes or less to type. I see that damn error page more often than anything else. Fuck it. It’s not as if anyone here will miss me.

BUMP

BUMP
Why?

Ye gods, some of you people are writing the biggest load of trollop I've ever seen in my life...

Who cares? Now shut up and find something useful to do, like find a cure for cancer.

We've been over thi stupid issue at least a few hundred times! Give it a F***ing rest!

I wouldn't call homosexuality *wrong* or *bad* per se, but if everyone practiced it exclusively, it'd be an evolutionary dead end. The human race would be finished with that generation.

Is it the overwhelming evil that some want to make it? No...but in certain (virtually impossible) circumstances, it's not good for the human race.

BUMP
Why?

I made what I thought was a pretty good argument in an earlier post and nobody seemed interested, so I was hoping eventually someone would check it out.

So... I just felt like it.

I wouldn't call homosexuality *wrong* or *bad* per se, but if everyone practiced it exclusively, it'd be an evolutionary dead end. The human race would be finished with that generation.

Is it the overwhelming evil that some want to make it? No...but in certain (virtually impossible) circumstances, it's not good for the human race.

Like you said, it's impossible that EVERYONE suddenly decides to be attracted to the same sex. I mean, what are the odds?

And even then, aren't we intelligent enough to at least figure out that we need at least minimal opposite-sex to ensure continuity of species?And what about assisted procreation?

I don't think the evolutionary dead end argument is very plausible.

In fact, isn't this planet overpopulated anyway? A couple of gay/lesbians here and there might just be an easy way to stop before we choke what's left of the planet's man-free ecosytems. Taking that into account, homosexuality might just be the contrary of a dead-end, but rather another step taken to preserve ourselves and our environment. Just a thought.

I wouldn't call homosexuality *wrong* or *bad* per se, but if everyone practiced it exclusively, it'd be an evolutionary dead end. The human race would be finished with that generation.

Is it the overwhelming evil that some want to make it? No...but in certain (virtually impossible) circumstances, it's not good for the human race.

Like you said, it's impossible that EVERYONE suddenly decides to be attracted to the same sex. I mean, what are the odds?

And even then, aren't we intelligent enough to at least figure out that we need at least minimal opposite-sex to ensure continuity of species?And what about assisted procreation?

I don't think the evolutionary dead end argument is very plausible.

In fact, isn't this planet overpopulated anyway? A couple of gay/lesbians here and there might just be an easy way to stop before we choke what's left of the planet's man-free ecosytems. Taking that into account, homosexuality might just be the contrary of a dead-end, but rather another step taken to preserve ourselves and our environment. Just a thought.

Not that I consider this to be a serious historical argument, but The British Empire outlawed homosexuality and retained her colonies for only a small fraction of the time that Rome did. :wink:

The man who ESTABLISHED the Empire that Rome, Spain, Britain, and we are based on, was, in fact, a homosexual.

Yep. Alexander liked men. Eunuchs, even. One in particular named Hephaestion. Often it's said that he was his advisor and companion, but it's quite well-documented that they were lovers as well.

And I realize I've offerred no citations, but I'm pathologically afraid of opening multiple windows. So there!

The whole "nature" argument is kind of silly, because as has probably already been established, there is NO right or wrong to Evolution. There is only that which propagates the species, and that which does not. But is the entire purpose of human existence to propagate the species? Absolutely not.

As for the "gross factor", well, straight sex is pretty disgusting, too. But heteros are blinded to it by their libidos. If we were an entirely lustless race, we would probably be horrified by putting ourselves in other people's bodies.

You're all just a bunch of protons and neutrons, anyways.