NationStates Jolt Archive

...and no one is around to hear it, DOES it make a sound?


What do you think?

Well, based upon some of the laws of physics, yes, it does.

the tree does make a sound, just cause you arent there to hear it doesnt mean it hasnt happened

Of course it does! It's terribly humanocentric (life-o-centric?) to think that our presence is required for something to happen. And the whole "observation influences events" bit only pertains to quantum things. So, unless it's a quantum tree in a quantum forest.... :wink:

this argues what the nature of "sound" actually is. Does sound exist for the person/entity hearing it or does it exist on it's own? IS something sound if it isn't heard? If no one is there to hear it, it is only a vibration.

Yes, because it still produces sound waves.

If you argue that since no one it around to hear the sound waves, renders the the sound waves arguement effectively void. The fact that it is a forest means that there is probably some living creature around to register them.

...and no one is around to hear it, DOES it make a sound?


What do you think?

Depends on how sound is defined. If by that word you mean a scientifically measurable compression of air waves, then yes it does. If by that you mean an experience of a rational being, then no it doesn't.

The fact that it is a forest means that there is probably some living creature around to register them.

that's what we're arguing! IF the forest was empty and devoid of anything that can process sound

If nothing (human or otherwise) is there to hear it, then a sound hasn't occured by definition. A sound is 'the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing' (Merriam-Webster) and so if it isn't heard, it didn't make a sound. That doesn't mean that a sound wave doesn't propagate when the tree falls, of course.

Well we'd never know because we weren't there to here it... So this is just one of those things that can never be answered. This is a hypothetical question.

:shock:

If nothing (human or otherwise) is there to hear it, then a sound hasn't occured by definition. A sound is 'the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing' (Merriam-Webster) and so if it isn't heard, it didn't make a sound. That doesn't mean that a sound wave doesn't propagate when the tree falls, of course.

My sentiments exactly. People have to look at the other side of the argument, not just the blatantly scientific.

bump

if a tree falls in the forest and it falls on a mime, does anyone care?

Gary Larson

It doesnt make a sound until someone realizes it made a sound

if a tree falls in the forest and it falls on a mime, does anyone care?

Gary Larson


GOOD POINT! If a mime is being murdered? Would it make a sound?!

Well we'd never know because we weren't there to here it... So this is just one of those things that can never be answered. This is a hypothetical question.

:shock:


A hypothetical question is more designed to tell the questioner about the person being questioned than the answer itself.


Socrates made extensive use of this to great effect.

it depends if anyone's around.

Of course it does! It's terribly humanocentric (life-o-centric?) to think that our presence is required for something to happen. And the whole "observation influences events" bit only pertains to quantum things. So, unless it's a quantum tree in a quantum forest.... :wink:
But can the quantum principles be applied here anyway? Could it be said that the sound produced by the falling tree is in a state of flux: existing/not existing until someone or something is there to observe it, at which stage it becomes fixed as existing?

Or maybe we should just follow George Berkeley's dictum Esse est Percipi. If it isn't perceived, then it doesn't exist. But as soon as it is percieved, then it does exist. It pretty much amounts to the same thing really. 8)

Does sound actually exist?

Or, is it just something we as humans decided exists?

Does sound actually exist?

Or, is it just something we as humans decided exists?
like time? a wholly human concept that everyone takes for hard fact...could be.

Does sound actually exist?

Or, is it just something we as humans decided exists?
like time? a wholly human concept that everyone takes for hard fact...could be.

Is any of this so-called reality truly a form of existance, or is own whole bane for existance nothing but a dream? A fabrication?

Okay, this is far too serious a concept to discuss without the aid of some perception-enhancing drugs and some birkenstocks.

...and no one is around to hear it, DOES it make a sound?


What do you think?

fuck the laws of Physics. this is a philosphical question, and it depends on how you define the word "sound"

if you define "sound" as something you can hear, then no. There is no sound.

But if you define "sound" as a noise then the falling tree does make a sound.

if a tree falls in the forest and it falls on a mime, does anyone care?

Gary Larson


GOOD POINT! If a mime is being murdered? Would it make a sound?!

Depends on how good of a mime he/she is.

It makes waves. Soundwaves. We call them soundwaves, but it's just energy. When our ears detect it, and sends the message to our brain, we define it as "sound". So, because the concept of sound was designated by human beings, the tree does not make a sound.

If a tree falls in a forest, who gives a fuck?

Which direction did the tree fall?

probably on your fat ugly head

If a dog barks in a forest and there is no human around - is he still a bad dog?

...and no one is around to hear it, DOES it make a sound?


What do you think?

If I kill a man in the middle of a forest, and nobody is around to see it, does it mean I murdered the man?

Well, based upon some of the laws of physics, yes, it does.

actually, there's other principles of physics proposed by Einstein and other prominent theoretical physicists that say that the universe, and everything in it, exist for the singular purpose of being observed. therefore, if nothing in the entire universe was taking note of, say, an unpopulated planet or moon, it could do lots of really strange things or maybe even cease to exist entirely, but it wouldn't matter because, remember, nobody was paying attention to it in the first place. therefore, Einstein believed that if a tree fell in the forest and nothing at all was there to hear it, it wouldn't make a sound. but that forest would have to be completely and utterly devoid of all life because all life can observe things, and because trees are a form of life the scenario is impossible.

how can trees observe things? every living thing responds to its environment, it's part of what it is to live. if a tree doesn't get any water or nutrients, it dies, and responding to changes is a result of observation.

When Royal Arse jerks with his left hand , is he cheating on his right?

What if it somehow hit the ground without making any noise? Along with that, what if someone were around when that happened?

Of course it does! It's terribly humanocentric (life-o-centric?) to think that our presence is required for something to happen. And the whole "observation influences events" bit only pertains to quantum things. So, unless it's a quantum tree in a quantum forest.... :wink:
But can the quantum principles be applied here anyway? Could it be said that the sound produced by the falling tree is in a state of flux: existing/not existing until someone or something is there to observe it, at which stage it becomes fixed as existing?

Or maybe we should just follow George Berkeley's dictum Esse est Percipi. If it isn't perceived, then it doesn't exist. But as soon as it is percieved, then it does exist. It pretty much amounts to the same thing really. 8)

quantum principles can be applied just about anywhere. that's why they're half of Einstein's incomplete quest for the Unified Field Theory.

Physics and other stuff aside (yes, my minor is in Physics)...

If a tree falls in the forest, I say kudos to the lumberjack on another great job!!! :-)

Does sound actually exist?

Or, is it just something we as humans decided exists?
like time? a wholly human concept that everyone takes for hard fact...could be.

actually, time is the fourth axis of measurement. movement in this axis is not necessarily constant and not entirely understood.

When Royal Arse jerks with his left hand , is he cheating on his right?

your momma would know wouldn't she? "She" has a bit of extra equipment

When Royal Arse jerks with his left hand , is he cheating on his right?

your momma would know wouldn't she? "She" has a bit of extra equipmentsettle down children or you'll upset the mods

No.

"Sound" is the name and concept assigned by human beings to a stimulus which requires the presense of a functional ear and brain to appreciate and understand. The movement of a shockwave through a medium, in this case atmosphere, is not itself sound, because without a device to detect such a shockwave, like an ear or brain, it is meaningless. It is just air molecules bumping into each other.

Without a critical mind to give and attach value, there is no sound.

If nothing (human or otherwise) is there to hear it, then a sound hasn't occured by definition. A sound is 'the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing' (Merriam-Webster) and so if it isn't heard, it didn't make a sound. That doesn't mean that a sound wave doesn't propagate when the tree falls, of course.

Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com) has no less than seven catagories for the word 'sound.' One adjective, one adverb, two verbs and three nouns. Under sound [3,noun] definition 1 sub-section b we find the definition you provided as the basis for your argument. The very next cite is sub-section c which reads, "c : mechanical radiant energy that is transmitted by longitudinal pressure waves in a material medium (as air) and is the objective cause of hearing.

Looking at the issue from this perspective, that hearing is a possible result of sound - a mechanical radiant energy - then yes, sound does result from the falling of the tree. Just as I am sure that the earth existed prior to my conception and subsequent birth into it.

:shock:

If nothing (human or otherwise) is there to hear it, then a sound hasn't occured by definition. A sound is 'the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing' (Merriam-Webster) and so if it isn't heard, it didn't make a sound. That doesn't mean that a sound wave doesn't propagate when the tree falls, of course.

Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com) has no less than seven catagories for the word 'sound.' One adjective, one adverb, two verbs and three nouns. Under sound [3,noun] definition 1 sub-section b we find the definition you provided as the basis for your argument. The very next cite is sub-section c which reads, "c : mechanical radiant energy that is transmitted by longitudinal pressure waves in a material medium (as air) and is the objective cause of hearing.

Looking at the issue from this perspective, that hearing is a possible result of sound - a mechanical radiant energy - then yes, sound does result from the falling of the tree. Just as I am sure that the earth existed prior to my conception and subsequent birth into it.

:shock:

The subsection C definition still has an end result of someone/thing hearing the sound. Yes, the longitudinal pressure waves may be an objective phenomenon, but without the subjective experience of someone/thing hearing it, is it still considered sound? It appears that the important element in the definition of sound may be the hearing of it.

I am just pointing out a potential flaw in your argument. I may or may not actually agree with you Slap Happy, I am still deciding. :?

You may be certain that the earth existed prior to your conception, but is that just because other people have perceived it before you, and relayed their experience on to you through cultural knowledge, schools, media, and aural history etc.?

No. it makes a vibration, yes. But no one is there to actually hear it.

Ah... the eternal question...

How about this: If a tree falls in a forest and nothing hears it, how do we know it fell over when nothing was there to hear it AND WHY DO WE CARE?

As long as it doesn't fall on me, I don't care if it makes a sound.

"Hell ya, Carl fell last week and he still hasn't shut up about it."
"Yeah, you guys just stand around and talk but none of you have the decency to HELP ME?!"

The tree doesn't have to make a sound. What the tree does is fall in a forest. Conceptually, we see in our minds eye a log with some leafy branches hitting the ground and in our mind's ear there is a thump on the ground. If we have a little more imagination a small squirrel squeals as it is squashed (or a mime or somebody's big fat head or left hand). Anyways, the point is, when one thinks of the concept of a tree falling in a forest while no one is there, there is still the concept that a sound actually occurred, had we been there to hear it. As we were not there, we can still assume that had we been there, we would have heard the sound, and therefore a sound must have been made despite the nature of it not actually resolving itself to us.

Now the same could be said of many things that don't resolve (e.g. God, spirits, spooks under the bed, shoulder angels) but that isn't the point. The point is personal belief. If you believe that presence is required for sensation, then the tree does not make a sound. If you believe that sensation affects presence, then the tree does make a sound. Thank you.