NationStates Jolt Archive

All right, so the situation with the USA and Iraq is a contentious issue- you can see that just by looking at this forum, where the range of opinions from closely argued intelligent debate to rabid, poorly expressed and frequently unintelligible abuse (on either side) is phenomenonal. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course, but looking at the forum and the world in general, I am surprised and disappointed by the sheer venom being levelled at the anti-war group by the pro-war one.

A few instances: Some anonymous member of the TSA recently, in searching someone's baggage, commented on anti-war signs he found inside by writing a note criticising their political views:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/03/15/baggage.inspection.ap/index.html

I mean, this is supposed to be a professional organisation- they've got access to people's belongings, the perfect opportunity to 'plant' things, etc. Maintaining political and moral impartiality to what they find is about one of the most important aspects of their job. Oh, and saying it was just a joke doesn't let them off the hook in this sort of case.

For more of the same, there was the man arrested for wearing an anti-war T-shirt in a shopping mall. (If anyone can find a link to that article, please post it.)

Then there's the whole 'freedom fries' nonsense, to say nothing of sections of the American media hurling around ridiculous abuse like "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys". I'll grant you, Jacques Chirac's stance was deliberately antagonistic, but that's no reason to sink to this. The same goes for The Sun's childish bit of Chirac=Worm photoshopping a while back.

I'm not opposing debate, but I can't see why there are so many people in the pro-war camp don't seem content to disagree with people who are anti-war, but instead appear to take indignant umbrage at the fact that they even exist. It's not all one sided, I admit, the anti-war camp has its share of individuals whose main argument is to repeatedly shout "Bush is a moron!" or "Tony's a poodle!", but while that equates with the abuse being levelled at Chirac, for instance, it doesn't account for the abusive anger and raw hatred that seems to be stirring itself up at anyone who supports the anti-war position. Surely, there's nothing wrong in holding an opinion. This doesn't feel like political debate any more, it feels like hate.

Anyone care to speculate as to why?

For more of the same, there was the man arrested for wearing an anti-war T-shirt in a shopping mall. (If anyone can find a link to that article, please post it.)



www.msnbc.com/local/WNYT/M276307.asp?cp1=1

He got arrested for wearing an anti-war T-shirt???
What law did he break?

[quote] He got arrested for wearing an anti-war T-shirt???
What law did he break? /[quote]

The people were asked to change shirts or leave. They refused so the owners of the mall had them arrested for trespassing. Completely legal, and a bit childish, but the bad PR should hurt them.
I don’t know why some people hate the anti-war side so much; I hate most of the anti-war people around here because they are uninformed college students. They protest so they can yell. I hate people who when you try to debate pull out no blood for oil, or he is not MY president. If you want to argue with some ideas of why, then fine.

The attitude of calling anyone who disagrees with the government stance 'anti-American' is ridiculous. Likewise, the people who called Tom Daschle names for criticizing Bush yesterday are also ridiculous. Why?

Because discension is what freedom is all about. You can say you want war and I can say I don't. Then, in a true democracy, our government is supposed to act on our wishes. Right now there are as many people who don't want war as do, so is half the country unamerican?

To blindly follow your leader into a war and refuse to allow anyone to criticize that decision is EXACTLY what the Germans did before World War II. Interestingly enough, some of the law changes Bush got in the Homeland Security Bill are also reminiscent of the pre-WWII German government.

A few years ago the government needed congressional approval to go to war. Now all it needs it Bush to wake up with a sore head and an itchy trigger finger. That the rest of the world is saying "wait" and America us saying "eat me" should be cause for concern to all Americans, because it's sure as hell beginning to worry the rest of us.

America was built on due process. You can't arrest a man without proof, you can't convict him without evidence, you can't even search him without a warrant. The US hasn't been able to show the UN enough evidence to even get a warrant. You're basically attacking a nation because they once bought some aluminium tubes and have sloppy paperwork.

Go find Bin Laden. He's the one that pissed you off in the first place. and quit threatening the rest of the world to come join you in your war "or else"... it's hardly very 'American' to tell democracies what to do.

The attitude of calling anyone who disagrees with the government stance 'anti-American' is ridiculous. Likewise, the people who called Tom Daschle names for criticizing Bush yesterday are also ridiculous. Why?

Because discension is what freedom is all about. You can say you want war and I can say I don't. Then, in a true democracy, our government is supposed to act on the wishes of the majority. Right now there are as many people who don't want war as do, so where's the democracy? where is the will of the people? Is half the country 'unamerican'?

To blindly follow your leader into a war and refuse to allow anyone to criticize that decision is EXACTLY what the Germans did before World War II. Interestingly enough, some of the law changes Bush got in the Homeland Security Bill are also reminiscent of the pre-WWII German government.

A few years ago the government needed congressional approval to go to war. Now all it needs it Bush to wake up with a sore head, an itchy trigger finger and the desire to kick an arab's ass. That the rest of the world is saying "wait" and America is saying "eat me" should be cause for concern to all Americans, because it's sure as hell beginning to worry the rest of of the world.

America has always been the great nation of liberty. The rest of the world knew that in America, if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. America was built on 'due process'; you can't arrest a man without proof, you can't convict him without evidence, you can't even search him without a warrant. But that seems to have changed of late. Now, all you need to go to war is the suspicion that someone is doing something you don't agree with - and that kind of militaristic behavior is exactly what USED to have Americans saying that the Russians were the bad guys.

Nowadays America behaves in the kind of way that it used to despise. The US hasn't been able to show the UN enough evidence that Iraq is breaking the rules to even get a warrant. You're basically attacking a nation because they once bought some aluminium tubes and have they have some sloppy paperwork.

Go find Bin Laden, he's the one that pissed you off in the first place, and quit threatening the rest of the world to come join you in your war "or else"... as long as you're telling other nations what to do, how about you tell Israel to quit shooting Palestinians, bulldozing their homes, cutting off their water supply, arresting them at random and invading their land? that'd maybe show that the US gives a damn about any nation that doesn't have oil under the ground.

Lastly, they're saying this war will cost $200b to run. If there are 200m US taxpayers, that means that each of you are paying $1000 of your tax money to have this war.

Sure hope you get your money's worth - I know I'd rather have the thousand bucks, rather than spend it trying to get the wrong guy, only to create a whole new generation of terrorists in the process.

"Right now there are as many people who don't want war as do, so where's the democracy?"

In an article I read yesterday, about 70% of Americans support the war, regardless of if there was UN support or not. Previous polls showed about 60% supported it, with the exact number depending on if there was UN support (but the number supporting with or without was always above 50%). Last time I checked, anything above 50% is more than half.

"Interestingly enough, some of the law changes Bush got in the Homeland Security Bill are also reminiscent of the pre-WWII German government. "

Like how? Have there been massive book burnings? Have certain ethnic groups (not just certain people of certain ethnic groups, but the entire group) been labeled as noncitizens? Has there been a massive restriction on political freedoms? (If you say yes to the last one, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about... just because someone is criticized for saying something doesn't mean political freedoms have been restricted)

"A few years ago the government needed congressional approval to go to war. Now all it needs it Bush to wake up with a sore head, an itchy trigger finger and the desire to kick an arab's ass."

Oh, so the resolution Congress passed authorizing Bush to use force in Iraq doesn't count as Congressional approval anymore? A fairly large majority in both houses approved of it. (Granted, I don't think use of force resolutions are quite in line with the Constitution, but here you said that Congress didn't give approval, when they did... MONTHS ago)

"quit threatening the rest of the world to come join you in your war "or else""

And how is the U.S. government doing that? Are we invading France because they didn't go along with the U.S.?

"that'd maybe show that the US gives a damn about any nation that doesn't have oil under the ground. "

If you seriously think that this war is about oil, you are sorely mistaken. The United States produces 50% of its consumed oil domestically. Of the remaining 50%, a vast majority comes from Canada, Mexico, Venezuala, and other South American nations. Only a measly 20% comes from the Middle East, and due to the end of the Cold War, this number could drop dramatically as we now find it acceptable to trade with the Russians, who themselves have quite a good amount of oil under their land. My point is, if this were really about oil, and oil alone, then we wouldn't be invading Iraq. We'd be invading Canada.

"Lastly, they're saying this war will cost $200b to run. If there are 200m US taxpayers, that means that each of you are paying $1000 of your tax money to have this war. "

Actually, there are closer to 300 million in America, and do you honestly believe that taxes are being raised to pay the cost? Much of this money comes from preallocated defense spending, and the rest comes from reallocations.

Oh, so the resolution Congress passed authorizing Bush to use force in Iraq doesn't count as Congressional approval anymore?

Oh, you mean the one authorizing him to use force against the people who planned/carried out 9/11?

Iraq and Al-Qaeda hate each other, by the way.

"Right now there are as many people who don't want war as do, so where's the democracy?"

In an article I read yesterday, about 70% of Americans support the war, regardless of if there was UN support or not. Previous polls showed about 60% supported it, with the exact number depending on if there was UN support (but the number supporting with or without was always above 50%). Last time I checked, anything above 50% is more than half.


There's lies, there's big lies and there's statistics... where do you think these numbers come from. I doubt they ask every single american... they ask like 5000 and then it's up to them who they ask and where. Numbers don't mean anything. And the US has a history of standing behind their president, regardles of what he does.



"Interestingly enough, some of the law changes Bush got in the Homeland Security Bill are also reminiscent of the pre-WWII German government. "

Like how? Have there been massive book burnings? Have certain ethnic groups (not just certain people of certain ethnic groups, but the entire group) been labeled as noncitizens? Has there been a massive restriction on political freedoms? (If you say yes to the last one, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about... just because someone is criticized for saying something doesn't mean political freedoms have been restricted)



I see parallels as well with the Nazi Goverment back then. I mean there's also parallels to other "empires", but I know more about Nazis and stuff so I take that example.

Book burning. YES! Open your eyes. The FBI arrested many people that bought books about Iraq or Bin Laden. Book store owners and Librarians where forced to hand over their databases of who bought what / lent what... It's not burning books but it has the same effect. Then look at the censorship Micheal Moore had to put up with. "Rewrite 50% of the entire book" they told him. And that's only the cases we know about.

Censorship is the same as book burning in my opinion.

DIVING instructors and diving equipment stores had to hand over lists to the FBI about who learns to dive, in case they plan to plant some bombs under water... I mean... what happened to democracy???

It seems nowadays in the US you have less privacy rights than in East Germany during the cold war... your STASI though has much better spy technology. Emails get read, letters get opened, phonecalls get tabbed, normal family houses are bugged...

I mean it happens in most countries but I just want to open your eyes to the fact that your democracy IS influenced...




"quit threatening the rest of the world to come join you in your war "or else""

And how is the U.S. government doing that? Are we invading France because they didn't go along with the U.S.?



I recall a certain declaration that was made by George W. Bush that in the case that only a single US american gets dragged in front of the International Criminal Court in Den Haag he will invade the Netherlands.

Do you guys have ANY idea how bloddy scared the rest of the world is of the US. You are the guys with the biggest arsenal of all possible mass destruct weappons, with the longest range and the biggest destruction power. When a nation like that talks about peace we are supposed to believe that?

And when they still tried to bring a 2nd resolution into the UN security Council Bush and Blair tried to buy poor African states by saying we'll give you extra money (meaning "let US companies built factories there where they have cheap workers"... but that's another story).

In my eyes that's forcing.



"that'd maybe show that the US gives a damn about any nation that doesn't have oil under the ground. "

If you seriously think that this war is about oil, you are sorely mistaken. The United States produces 50% of its consumed oil domestically. Of the remaining 50%, a vast majority comes from Canada, Mexico, Venezuala, and other South American nations. Only a measly 20% comes from the Middle East, and due to the end of the Cold War, this number could drop dramatically as we now find it acceptable to trade with the Russians, who themselves have quite a good amount of oil under their land. My point is, if this were really about oil, and oil alone, then we wouldn't be invading Iraq. We'd be invading Canada.



I don't know if it is about oil or destabalizing and controlling a certain part of the world, fact is that it's not helping ANYONE. Why can't the BIG and MIGHTY US have some secret operation to arrest Saddam and his "henchmen" and let the people of Iraq live? Why BOMB a whole country?

I mean, what so democratic about marching into a country after destroying all it's infrastructure and then ruling that country against the will of all the people living there.

However much the Iraqis hate Saddam they hate the US 10 times more. How is it democratic??? How does it bring them freedom????



"Lastly, they're saying this war will cost $200b to run. If there are 200m US taxpayers, that means that each of you are paying $1000 of your tax money to have this war. "

Actually, there are closer to 300 million in America, and do you honestly believe that taxes are being raised to pay the cost? Much of this money comes from preallocated defense spending, and the rest comes from reallocations.

I think you misundertsood. it's taxpayers.

about 273million people live in the US. How many of them are children or unemployed or in pension and therefor don't pay taxes? So I think the numbers are about right.


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I have to say being against a war (ANY WAR, for that matter) has put me in some dangerous situations. I get hate mail and death threats from US citizens just caus I know what a war is like and what it's like to live oppressed in your own country by a government from another country.

I am entitled to my own opinion. I don't hate anyone else for their opinion and I respect mutual respect regarding my own. Why many people can't deal with the fact that more that half the world are against a war is something I'll never understand.

And the list of 30 countries that support the US consists mostly of small countries with a weak economy that are dependent on the US and countries like the UK, Australia or the Netherlands whose goverments say they stand behind the US, more that half the actual people living in those country are against a war and the government is ignoring them. So not much democracy there either...

I wish people could discuss this matter in a civilised way, but it's very emotional and I also get very worked up on it. we should nevertheless try and stil respect each other as people no matter what we believe in.

:) Peace :)