NationStates Jolt Archive


Why Max Bary owns Tom Clancy

TROUSRS
16-05-2004, 14:02
Before I ever read a Tom Clancy novel, I read both Jennifer Government and Syrup. Everyone I talked to (especially my Dad and Uncle) said that Tom Clancy was very very good, and they gave me 10+ books by him.

So I started reading "Red Rabbit", a book based in the 1980s. Something about the Pope threatening to resign, and return to Poland, so the KGB of russia tries to assasinate him.

Tom Clancy tells stories. And they are very good stories, which is why many of his books have been made into top-selling action movies, and/or best-seller video games.

But Tom Clancy lacks what Mr. Barry has: Character development. Action-packed, well executed stories (which both Max and Tom have), just aren't enough.

Max has that extra creativity.. or something. I can't explain it, but it is very hard for me to get into a Tom Clancy novel, and I have never finished one. Nor do I intend to.

Max Barry will rise to the top.

Comments?
Catholic Europe
17-05-2004, 10:53
Tell me more about that Pope story!
TROUSRS
17-05-2004, 23:43
Tell me more about that Pope story!

I couldn't finish it, but Yuriy Vladimirovich Andropov (some high up KGB member) wanted to know how to get "physically close" to the pope.
Catholic Europe
18-05-2004, 10:10
Tell me more about that Pope story!

I couldn't finish it, but Yuriy Vladimirovich Andropov (some high up KGB member) wanted to know how to get "physically close" to the pope.
Hmm...I don't understand why the KGB would get involved with the Pope because he quit.... :?
TROUSRS
19-05-2004, 02:25
Tell me more about that Pope story!

I couldn't finish it, but Yuriy Vladimirovich Andropov (some high up KGB member) wanted to know how to get "physically close" to the pope.
Hmm...I don't understand why the KGB would get involved with the Pope because he quit.... :?

Because he was returning to Poland or something.. go read it!.. No wait. Don't. :D

It's called "Red Rabbit" if you are interested though.
TROUSRS
19-05-2004, 02:25
Tell me more about that Pope story!

I couldn't finish it, but Yuriy Vladimirovich Andropov (some high up KGB member) wanted to know how to get "physically close" to the pope.
Hmm...I don't understand why the KGB would get involved with the Pope because he quit.... :?

Because he was returning to Poland or something.. go read it!.. No wait. Don't. :D

It's called "Red Rabbit" if you are interested though.
Catholic Europe
19-05-2004, 08:16
Because he was returning to Poland or something.. go read it!.. No wait. Don't. :D

It's called "Red Rabbit" if you are interested though.

Oh...okay. That still seems like a weird reason for the KGB to be after the Pope.
Wherefore
22-05-2004, 18:58
I couldn't finish it, but Yuriy Vladimirovich Andropov (some high up KGB member) wanted to know how to get "physically close" to the pope.

Didn't he end up as Soviet premier (for a few months) in reality?
Imperial Brits
23-05-2004, 15:26
Have you read "Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy as I believe it to be his best book. I still have to read Max's book but it is on my list.
Catholic Europe
23-05-2004, 19:41
I still have to read Max's book but it is on my list.

Which one? JG or Syrup?
Argath
24-05-2004, 03:44
I'd just like to point out that a lot of the character development occurred in Tom Clancy's earlier books. Therefore, most readers already have a background.

Tom Clancy owns all, and Max Barry is his Clone. Or twin. Younger twin. I'm not sure which. :D
Catholic Europe
24-05-2004, 08:22
Tom Clancy owns all, and Max Barry is his Clone. Or twin. Younger twin. I'm not sure which. :D

So I take it that you think that Max Barry is not as good as Tom Clancy.
Egotistical Farmers
29-05-2004, 21:27
You totally missed the entire point of Red Rabbit. The Pope is threatening to resign in protest of the cruelty that the Soviets inflict on his native people, the Polish.

The KGB, trying to avoid an international mess before the Pope announces his ultimatum, attempts to assassinate him.

You should probably finish reading a book before you start becoming a critic.

And in response to your original statement; no, Clancy and Coonts are the best Realistic Fiction writers hands-down.
Riversland
30-05-2004, 00:32
I brought a copy of Red Rabbit but have not read it. After reading Teeh of the Tiger which was a load of rubbish I wasn't going to read any new Clancy. I will now.

In Executive Order Clanc makes a slip up. He mentions in once sentence about writing letters to the families of dead servicepeople like George Bush. George Bush was not president under his Jack Ryan timeline.

I have not read Max Barry but I plan to
Riversland
30-05-2004, 00:33
ugh double post
Catholic Europe
30-05-2004, 09:09
You totally missed the entire point of Red Rabbit. The Pope is threatening to resign in protest of the cruelty that the Soviets inflict on his native people, the Polish.

The KGB, trying to avoid an international mess before the Pope announces his ultimatum, attempts to assassinate him.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense as to why the KGB would want to assassinate the Pope.
Pyta
07-06-2004, 07:13
I tried reading Rainbow six once, I couldn't finish it.'


Instant book:

Tom Clancy: "High, I'm tom clancy, I'm going to use complicated military terms to make you keep reading"
Ding Chavez: "Hi, I'm ding, I'm going to make terrorist heads explode for about 800 pages, and nothing else"
(Terrorist head explodes).

We never see any development on any of his characters in recent novels (HFRO, IMO is the best book he ever wrote)

Whereas in Jennifer Government, we see:

Jen Developed as a Government Agent, Jilted Lover, Single mom, Avatar of Vengance, and lonely single woman

Hack develops from spineless coward to crazy-a** loon, to reasonable human being

Buy develops from day-to-day wage slave, to suicidal, to reasonably happy quasi-father

John develops from, Crazy-a** loon, to crazier-a** loon, to bat-sh** insane.

Violet develops from Budding entrupeneur, to bat-sh** insane

Billy doesn't develop, Claire doesn't develop.
Dimmimar
07-06-2004, 12:04
Max is batter
Catholic Europe
08-06-2004, 10:45
Max is batter

Well, he isn't as bad as your spelling.
Karmabaijan
15-06-2004, 06:19
Perhaps you shouldn't start reading from the end of Clancy's series, and start at least somewhere near the begenning. Clancy's characters are developed over several novels, a very different style than JG. In fact, the two authors writing styles are completely different, and I frankly don't think that a comparison can be made. Both write in a unique way, which is what is important. I don't want all my authors to try and write like eacho ther, as that would get pretty boring fairly quick.
Komokom
15-06-2004, 09:39
1) ( Mental image of Max Barry, Tom, and a cage ... "Own " indeed ... :wink: )

2) The one Tom Clancy I could never put down, and actually went and purchased a copy of was " The Bear and The Dragon " which was I don't know why a book I just plain love.

Yet, I still like Jen Gov better if only because of the image of Jen just ripping the place up up in the mall with the powerful machine gun, ...

* Gagged by forces of M.B. before too much is let into the light ...

:wink:

Actually, would this forum be a good place to ask, in the back of Jen Gov, in the Acknowledgments section, Max thanks a Wil Anderson, amoung others ...

Is this the Wil Anderson, Aussie comedian / of The Glass House (http://www.abc.net.au/glasshouse/) and (some) radio (station whose ID I remember not / NX FM ? ) fame ?

If not, ... , if so, " cool ! ".

:D

- T.R. Kom
Le Repr├ęsentant de Komokom.
Ministre R├ęgional de Substance.
http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/komokom.jpg (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=komokom)
<- Not A Moderator, Just A Know It All.
" Clowns To The Left of Me ... Jokers To The Right, Here I am ... "
Catholic Europe
15-06-2004, 11:10
So, which one do you prefer Tom Clancy or JG?
Komokom
16-06-2004, 11:45
I still like Jen Gov better

Who, me ? :wink:
Catholic Europe
17-06-2004, 11:39
I still like Jen Gov better

Who, me ? :wink:

Ah....I should learn to read better! :oops:
Steel Butterfly
30-07-2004, 17:19
There is no way Max is better than Tom Clancy. Are you trying to tell me that Jack Ryan and Ding Chavez aren't developed characters? I know more about them then some of my cousins! Tom writes with such detail and such excitement that few people can match. Jennifer Government, while entertaining for a day (that's all it took to read), doesn't come close. Sorry Max.
Steel Butterfly
30-07-2004, 17:23
I tried reading Rainbow six once, I couldn't finish it.'


Instant book:

Tom Clancy: "High, I'm tom clancy, I'm going to use complicated military terms to make you keep reading"
Ding Chavez: "Hi, I'm ding, I'm going to make terrorist heads explode for about 800 pages, and nothing else"
(Terrorist head explodes).

We never see any development on any of his characters in recent novels (HFRO, IMO is the best book he ever wrote).

First of all, Rainbow Six is a sidestory. Since Jack Ryan isn't the main character, it's a sidestory. Second of all, Jack Ryan and Ding Chavez have been developed for how many novels now? Also, like Karma said, don't read his current books first. Would you watch the third matrix, LotR, or Star wars before the first? No. Same with books.
Microevil
30-07-2004, 20:54
I don't get why people are so in love with clancy anyway, to me his books seem a little over done and long winded. Ender's Game, Jennifer Government and The Da Vinci Code, now there is some good reading.
Catholic Europe
15-08-2004, 09:56
Ender's Game, Jennifer Government and The Da Vinci Code, now there is some good reading.

Not all written by Max though.
United White Front
25-10-2004, 20:42
you need to start with the hunt for red october
Whogivesaflying
26-10-2004, 01:58
I don't get why people are so in love with clancy anyway, to me his books seem a little over done and long winded. Ender's Game, Jennifer Government and The Da Vinci Code, now there is some good reading.
and also, don't forget the follow ups! Shadow Of The Hegemon, Ender's Shadow, and Speaker For The Dead...all awesome books :mp5:
United White Front
26-10-2004, 03:34
and also, don't forget the follow ups! Shadow Of The Hegemon, Ender's Shadow, and Speaker For The Dead...all awesome books :mp5:
and the homecoming series
Andaluciae
26-10-2004, 03:41
Ender's Game, Jennifer Government and The Da Vinci Code, now there is some good reading.
Okay, I get Enders Game and Jenn. Gov., but not The Da Vinci Code. I see DVC as just another corporate novel that retells Jesus conspiracies.It is nothing I haven't seen on The History Channel and The Sci Fi Channel at 3:00 in the morning.

The DVC is just an attempt to get people to make money by disagreeing with the official story. (And no, I am not a Catholic, and at the very most I fit with a very liberal form of Christianity.)
Andaluciae
26-10-2004, 03:42
Doom!
Anti Pharisaism
26-10-2004, 08:16
This thread appears to be comparing apples to oranges.

Max and Tom both write novels based loosely on actual concepts.
I would say that Clancy keeps character development to a minimum because his novels focus more on how events might actually occur. Writing fiction based on an understanding of the Subject matter. Max has better character development because his story of fiction that creates a fantasy world. It is written with knowledge of terms, not economic principles. It does not portray in any way how economists hypothesize the world would function if free market capitilism were to to be the basis of society.

Given thier respected backgrounds and connections, it is like comparing the writings of a theoretical physicist on what technologies humans will utilize in the future to an english major who likes to write science fiction novels.
United White Front
26-10-2004, 10:34
This thread appears to be comparing apples to oranges.

Max and Tom both write novels based loosely on actual concepts.
I would say that Clancy keeps character development to a minimum because his novels focus more on how events might actually occur. Writing fiction based on an understanding of the Subject matter. Max has better character development because his story of fiction that creates a fantasy world. It is written with knowledge of terms, not economic principles. It does not portray in any way how economists hypothesize the world would function if free market capitilism were to to be the basis of society.

Given thier respected backgrounds and connections, it is like comparing the writings of a theoretical physicist on what technologies humans will utilize in the future to an english major who likes to write science fiction novels.
not minimum just over a long period of time
Feindsburough
27-10-2004, 01:59
Tom Clancy is awesome. Best three books I ever read: Rainbow Six, Clear and Present Danger, Without Remorse. Read, learn, live, love. I really need to read a MaX Bary book.
Anti Pharisaism
27-10-2004, 07:49
not minimum just over a long period of time

Agreed...
Moocowistan
27-10-2004, 21:58
I liked Tom Clancy until I read that one book where Jack Ryan becomes the president. He presents a laughable caricature of the UN, and then has Ryan embark on some kind of bizarre programme of nuclear escalation. When you have to wipe out half of the government to get your character and his policies into the whitehouse, you're painting your political views all over everything and ignoring rather than embracing reality. Clancy has a big throbbing boner for the Cold War. When it got stamped out, he just kept trying to find ways to recreate it in his books. Whether this was a product of his ideological bias, or his lack of imagination, it seems to me like he fell of the wagon at that point.
Onion Pirates
27-10-2004, 22:32
Max hasn't "risen" yet, has he?

Must be the general public fails to share your opinion.

:P
United White Front
28-10-2004, 15:17
I liked Tom Clancy until I read that one book where Jack Ryan becomes the president. He presents a laughable caricature of the UN, and then has Ryan embark on some kind of bizarre programme of nuclear escalation. When you have to wipe out half of the government to get your character and his policies into the whitehouse, you're painting your political views all over everything and ignoring rather than embracing reality. Clancy has a big throbbing boner for the Cold War. When it got stamped out, he just kept trying to find ways to recreate it in his books. Whether this was a product of his ideological bias, or his lack of imagination, it seems to me like he fell of the wagon at that point.
well think about it i was reading the book that started with the loss of that half of the gov't on 9-11 so it kinda freaked me out
its not bizzarre its possable as we all found out
Unified Sith
04-11-2004, 02:38
A bump on an ancient topic.
Aeruillin
04-11-2004, 17:41
While you're bumping it, I'd like to add that after reading through about half of Ender's Game, the first chapter of Red Storm Rising, (and, incidentally, the first two books of the Narnia chronicles), respectively, I hated Card, Clancy and Lewis with a passion. Lewis I can understand now, he lived in a devout, conservative time, and while he had not the skill that allowed Tolkien to keep the Christian allegory toned down, he shouldn't be lambasted for it.

But Clancy and Card are just plain annoying. Card at least has potential for well-written books (that first chapter of Red Storm Rising looked to me like the book equivalent of a badly written action movie), but both dish out the heavy patriot allegory with every word. The militaristic, pro-war attitude reeks miles against the wind to most people outside the US (or even many people outside the mid-west I guess). "Our cause is just". Silly asses, I say.

But then, I'm a liberal, so that's understandable.
Chaucerin
04-11-2004, 20:38
Tom Clancy - had one good book, and that was a long time ago. Most of his stuff reeks.

Max - ...went through Syrup and JG...I'll stop there since I'm such a big fan of Nation States.
The Phoenix Milita
05-11-2004, 13:20
3words
Red Storm Rising
3 more
Best Book Ever^
Bariloche
05-11-2004, 14:32
Oh great Max in the sky, don't be angered by the words that I must write today! I mean nothing wrong of you by them!

But Tom Clancy lacks what Mr. Barry has: Character development.
I would say that Clancy keeps character development to a minimum because his novels focus more on how events might actually occur.

No character development? I don't mean that he's great in it, but Jack Ryan's character is developed over more than 6 novels and several others with him.... his family, Golovko, Narmonov, Mancuso, Clark... you can't tell me he doesn't develop their personalities. The way he portraits Filipov in the "The Cardinal of the Kremlin", come on!
Santa Barbara
05-11-2004, 17:01
Nuclear escalation programme? Apparently Moocowistan read Executive Orders but didn't actually read it...

And how long does it take you people, the ones that HATE Tom Clancy or Orson Scott Card, to figure out how much you hate them by reading the books? Do you have to get all the way to the end? I think it must suck to spend so much time or energy with something only to get nothing out of it but hatred for some guy who doesn't care what you think about him.
Tekania
05-11-2004, 23:58
Apples and oranges... I have to agree... Tom is a military-intelligence writer.... Max is a socio-economics writer...

It's like trying to compare Karl Marx to Sun Tzu
Bariloche
06-11-2004, 19:56
Apples and oranges... I have to agree... Tom is a military-intelligence writer.... Max is a socio-economics writer...

It's like trying to compare Karl Marx to Sun Tzu

No, it's like trying to compare one novel writer to another novel writer... You compare their quality and style, it doesn't matter what they write about, we are not comparing their stories.

You could even compare Danielle Steele with Tolkien and come to the conclusion that Tolkien "owns" Steele, that would be a completely different situation, with as unequal themes and still you would know that one writer is obviously much better than the other.
Derscon
07-11-2004, 04:23
You CANNOT beat Tom Clancy. I own every single Jack Ryan novel, and don't you DARE say there is no character development -- that is blasphemy. Starting with the Hunt For Red October, Jack Ryan is first introed. If you start somewere at Debt of Honor, there is not all too much character introduction because it took place in his previous books.\

In order of Story Timeline (NOT, repeat NOT release date), here is the Jack Ryan novels:

The Hunt for Red October
Patriot Games
Red Rabbit
The Cardinal of the Kremlin
Clear and Present Danger
Debt of Honor
Executive Orders
The Bear and the Dragon
===========
The Teeth of the Tiger

...

I separated The Teeth of the Tiger because it did not deal with Jack Ryan, but his son.
Konania
21-11-2004, 02:41
Oddly enoguh, out of all TC's books, my favorite is Red Storm Rising, one of the ones that don't have to do with Jack Ryan. Ender's Game happens to be one of my favorite books, but they're planning to make it into a movie, so I don't know how that'll go.

An author that I've really grown to like recently is Arthur C. Clarke, especially his book, The City and the Stars. He says it was is personal favorite out all that he's written, and I can see why. :)

--Felix
Right thinking whites
21-11-2004, 11:23
Oddly enoguh, out of all TC's books, my favorite is Red Storm Rising, one of the ones that don't have to do with Jack Ryan. Ender's Game happens to be one of my favorite books, but they're planning to make it into a movie, so I don't know how that'll go.

An author that I've really grown to like recently is Arthur C. Clarke, especially his book, The City and the Stars. He says it was is personal favorite out all that he's written, and I can see why. :)

--Felix
they have been planing that movie for years so im not holding my breath
Kerubia
21-11-2004, 16:02
Before I ever read a Tom Clancy novel, I read both Jennifer Government and Syrup. Everyone I talked to (especially my Dad and Uncle) said that Tom Clancy was very very good, and they gave me 10+ books by him.

So I started reading "Red Rabbit", a book based in the 1980s. Something about the Pope threatening to resign, and return to Poland, so the KGB of russia tries to assasinate him.

Tom Clancy tells stories. And they are very good stories, which is why many of his books have been made into top-selling action movies, and/or best-seller video games.

But Tom Clancy lacks what Mr. Barry has: Character development. Action-packed, well executed stories (which both Max and Tom have), just aren't enough.

Max has that extra creativity.. or something. I can't explain it, but it is very hard for me to get into a Tom Clancy novel, and I have never finished one. Nor do I intend to.

Max Barry will rise to the top.

Comments?

I'm glad you've formed your own opinion. But the only way we can go by on the "who is the better author debate" is to go by sales . . .
Azurbajan
21-11-2004, 16:12
You CANNOT beat Tom Clancy. I own every single Jack Ryan novel, and don't you DARE say there is no character development -- that is blasphemy. Starting with the Hunt For Red October, Jack Ryan is first introed. If you start somewere at Debt of Honor, there is not all too much character introduction because it took place in his previous books.\

In order of Story Timeline (NOT, repeat NOT release date), here is the Jack Ryan novels:

The Hunt for Red October
Patriot Games
Red Rabbit
The Cardinal of the Kremlin
Clear and Present Danger
Debt of Honor
Executive Orders
The Bear and the Dragon
===========
The Teeth of the Tiger

...

I separated The Teeth of the Tiger because it did not deal with Jack Ryan, but his son.

Exactly, and I have been a big clancy fan for as long as I can remember. I have all his books , and especially cherish the Op Centre series. I have read max barry's nvels and I like them too, just I like clancy more.
Left-crackpie
21-11-2004, 16:18
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=five_shitty_movies
all of tom clancy's...eveythings are pretty much the same...except for net force wich is just unadultered crap. Above is a page with a tom Clancy plot generator. Now you can have a liscence to print money too!
Left-crackpie
21-11-2004, 16:29
Nuclear escalation programme? Apparently Moocowistan read Executive Orders but didn't actually read it...

And how long does it take you people, the ones that HATE Tom Clancy or Orson Scott Card, to figure out how much you hate them by reading the books? Do you have to get all the way to the end? I think it must suck to spend so much time or energy with something only to get nothing out of it but hatred for some guy who doesn't care what you think about him.
I love card, but hate clancy. Card has a way of giving himslef voice through his charaters, which shows us how they think very comprehensibly. the man is a genious.
SHADOW OF THE HEGEMON ROCKS!!! W00T!!
Konania
21-11-2004, 19:00
they have been planing that movie for years so im not holding my breath

Indeed-- I hope that it is complete before I graduate from college.

Anyway, I had to get off before, so I'll say this now: I agree with the assesment of those before me. Max Barry/Tom Clancy/Orson Scott Card is like apples/oranges/bananas. They're three different styles with three different subjects (though Card's later books gave become more like Clancy's).

And, speaking of Orson Scott Card, Shadow of the Giant (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312857586/qid=1096940039/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/104-4710629-3335162?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is due out on March 1st 2005. woot.

--Felix
Steel Butterfly
24-11-2004, 02:04
The only author who comes close to Clancy is Crichton. Max, while...decent...seems more of a novelty writer. Jennifer Government wasn't a fav. of mine.
JiangGuo
24-11-2004, 10:16
Not 30cm from me right now is my entire (worn) collection of all 'canon' Tom Clancy books up to 'The Bear And The Dragon'.

Have to say he's getting worse with each book, he's just bashing every group he personally dislikes (African-Americans, Conservationists, Non-US Foreigners etc).

Tom Clancy is just writing by formula now. So in a nutshell, don't spend money buying of his books written after 2000 (Rainbow Six was the last good book he written).
Steel Butterfly
29-11-2004, 04:36
Not 30cm from me right now is my entire (worn) collection of all 'canon' Tom Clancy books up to 'The Bear And The Dragon'.

Have to say he's getting worse with each book, he's just bashing every group he personally dislikes (African-Americans, Conservationists, Non-US Foreigners etc).

Tom Clancy is just writing by formula now. So in a nutshell, don't spend money buying of his books written after 2000 (Rainbow Six was the last good book he written).

And you of course personally know that he's just writing books to bash racial or politicial groups.

*rolls eyes*

Clancy's books have not dropped off in content. Then again, that's just my opinion vs. your's. Still, don't go running your mouth about things you really don't know anything about.
Riversland
01-12-2004, 08:14
I thought the Bear and the Dragon was the last good Clancy.

The Teeth of the Tiger was bad. Jack quitting as president, then Robbie getting assassinated and the disgraced form VP becoming president.

I purchased Red Rabbit but have yet to read it after one year. I read bits of Sum of All Fears, Debt of Honour and Executive orders regularly
JiangGuo
01-12-2004, 09:18
I thought the Bear and the Dragon was the last good Clancy.

The Teeth of the Tiger was bad. Jack quitting as president, then Robbie getting assassinated and the disgraced form VP becoming president.

I purchased Red Rabbit but have yet to read it after one year. I read bits of Sum of All Fears, Debt of Honour and Executive orders regularly


Robby gets KILLED?! Does it mention in the book any details?
I know he's a fictional character in the author and reader's mind, but still...
For some reason, everytime he's mentioned I keep imaging Samuel L. Jackson.
Saldin
01-12-2004, 16:09
If you like Clancy try reading a Vince Flynn novel. His first book was 'Term Limits'. He's a very good writer and his books flow very well.

Just my two cents on the whole deal.
Right thinking whites
01-12-2004, 22:21
Robby gets KILLED?! Does it mention in the book any details?
I know he's a fictional character in the author and reader's mind, but still...
For some reason, everytime he's mentioned I keep imaging Samuel L. Jackson.
old white dude did it former kkk i think
Stultus Maior Canis
02-12-2004, 03:18
ok... You started with the wrong clancy book

I have read all of his other mainstream novels and that was the worst. I didnt get past a few pages. Try the bear and the dragon, plenty more :mp5: :sniper: :gundge: :headbang: :mp5: :mp5: :upyours: