NationStates Jolt Archive

tell me what you think

The War Against Poverty
This Proposal:
Observes that poverty is a problem for many people in the world and prevents many people from reaching their own potential

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Fund (WAPF)

Structures the WAPF as a fund which money is collected by private donations form countries, businessmen, and from local organizations around the world and distributes it (see later)

Regulates how and where the money is distributed by setting up the Poverty Council which uses the money donated to train, supply, and make the recipients of the aid self supporting.

Before anything else, your proposal needs structure and content. You've offered virtually no information whatsoever at all, and the two subclauses of your enacting clause are so exceedingly open ended for interpretation that us capitalist states would laugh hysterically while nothing happens and communists would have wet dreams for using your resolution as a rationale and justification for their own policies.

do you have any ideas on how to make it better?

Not really. I'm a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist and think the entire idea of a "war on poverty" is generally bullocks. I would just suggest that you do some research and include specific methods and so forth that are shown to do something (quite aside from the fact that I believe the counter-evidence that they're all completely useless).

ok thanks

here is my modified version

The War Against Poverty
This Proposal:
Observes that poverty is a problem for many people in the world

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Fund (WAPF)

Creates the World Assembly Poverty Council (WAPC)

Structures the WAPF as:
A fund that can gather money from countries, businessmen, and local charitable groups

Structures the WAPC as:
An organization which organizes the money that was raised by the WAPF and uses the money to support programs that help raise poor family out of the cycle of poverty and into a stable environment.

Ways to raise the poor out of poverty
 Teach the impoverished people how to own a business, farm, build houses, or any other profession that could get them an income

 Provide struggling entrepreneurs with micro loans to give them a small boost which could pull them out of the cycle as well

I imagine this would be in the Social Justice category. You may want to look into Resolution #17, as a way of funding this. I think it would be a great deal more stable than what you have in place.

Richard York
WA Ambassador

ok i will

here is the new draft
any comments?

The War Against Poverty
This Proposal:
Observes that poverty is a problem for many people in the world

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Fund (WAPF)

Creates the World Assembly Poverty Council (WAPC)

Structures the WAPF as:
A fund that gets its funding from four main sources: The World Assembly General Fund, donations by countries, donations form businessmen and local charitable groups around the world.

Structures the WAPC as:
An organization which directs the use of the funds in the WAPF to fund programs which pull impoverished men and women out of poverty

The Programs which will be used will be:
 Give micro loans to small and struggling business to pull them up
Teach impoverished men and women how to be self sufficient by teaching them how to farm, own a business, and other types of work that could help pull them out of the cycle of poverty



It's a good idea, but it'll fail in practice. All of these statements assume that the impoverished deal directly with the WAPC as if it were a normal charity or with an internal branch of the nation's government whose job it is to relay to the WAPC. Any further use of the term "WAPC" in this statement may refer to either the WAPC itself, persons hired by the WAPC for the purpose of enforcement, or persons within the national government of the compliant nations hired to report to the WAPC proper for the purpose of distribution and enforcement.

Much of poverty is caused by rampant use of substances such as alcohol, narcotics, and marijuana. I wish for a stipulation to be included that allows the denial of loan or grant money from the WAPF based on the presence of such substances in the body and for regular mandatory drug tests for all individuals benefitting from WAPF funds.

Also, if a business is struggling, it may be because of extenuating circumstances (which throwing money at it may fix) or because of poor management (in which case the money will be merely stolen and they will come back for more money to steal). A capability clause needs to be added that if some amount of improvement in the company's finances is not made in a set amount of time (the company's cash flow must be up 10% in six months for example), that a restructuring of the upper level structure of the company (board of directors, president, CEO, CFO etc.) is forced by the WAPC upon the company in violation.

Also a clause needs to be implemented that should a company receiving funds from the WAPF give a bonus or pay increase to their executives before said company has met their objectives set forth in the stated above capability clause that all who voted for and all who benefitted from said bonuses will be punished according to the laws of the nation of which the company resides in for the crimes of grand larceny, fraud, and embezzelment, and the immediate replacement of any members punished conducted by a branch of the WAPC. Those who received bonuses will be given the option to return the bonus money to the company to receive no punishment. Multinational corporations will be punished in the nation where their primary headquarters are located, and any company who applies for loans from the WAPC must submit an address of their primary headquarters in their application for loan money.

I will attempt to edit my thoughts into the actual bill later to create it how I would like to see it.

The War Against Poverty
This Proposal:
Observes that poverty is a problem for many people in the world

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Fund (WAPF)

Creates the World Assembly Poverty Council (WAPC)

Structures the WAPF as:
A fund that gets its funding from four main sources: The World Assembly General Fund, donations by countries, donations form businessmen and local charitable groups around the world.

This would get shot down as being a potential House of Cards violation in a heartbeat if today wasn't Easter Sunday. You should edit this to instead have it getting its funding from the WA. And remove the other funding sources, as that can easily bring accusations of bias in RPs.

Oh, and be warned if I post ICly and seem to be evil to you. My IC representative to the World Assembly is, well, a self-centered jerk. Just warning you ahead of time so you do not take it harshly. You'll know when I'm posting ICly because I usually put a header that includes who is talking, where they are, or information like that before the actual IC content.

Structures the WAPC as:
An organization which directs the use of the funds in the WAPF to fund programs which pull impoverished men and women out of poverty

I think this could use a bit mor detail, such as what powers of investigation the organization has. You don't want someone labelled as poor, only to find out they're actually the emperor of a vast intergalactic empire and they work on a farm simply because they enjoy it.

The Programs which will be used will be:
Give micro loans to small and struggling business to pull them up
Teach impoverished men and women how to be self sufficient by teaching them how to farm, own a business, and other types of work that could help pull them out of the cycle of poverty



Who: Serah Gey
Location: Decaying orbit, probably gonna take out a skyscraper or two somewhere when I come down. Seriously, what's up with all of the skyscrapers? Are they intended to slow down incoming meteors or something?

In my vastly superior experience, this is an incredibly bad setup. Many small businesses fail because they either use bad marketting strategies (such as charging 50% more than a major company) or they use other bad practices. And farmers? Do you know any rich farmers? The farmers on my world are poor, and likely to stay that way! Well, except that guy who distills that fine pumpkin alcohol. That was one hell of a party. I swear, we must have had half of Orgrimmar drunk. I should see if we can import some of that here.

Anyway, my point is that you should try seeing about other methods of getting people out. Maybe teach them a new job skill? Since one of your nations promised your entire race would become barbeque by some weird 2050 date (that's soon, right? I really want some barbeque now...), I dunno if it really is necessary.

Here's my new version of the proposal, with a lot more detail, addressing the HoC violation, adding restriction and enforcement and addressing other issues I saw.

The War Against Poverty:

This Proposal:

Observes that poverty is a problem for many people in the world and creates an international means to reverse the growth of poverty within all member nations.

Creates the World Assembly Poverty Council (WAPC) as the lead governing body for all application, distribution, modification and enforcement of all assistance provided.

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Fund (WAPF) to fund any requirements the WAPC deems necessary to achieve its mission statement.

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Task Force (WAPTF) as a subsidiary of the WAPC that is the lead body in enforcement of requirements of the WAPC aid packages to work with the law enforcement of the member nations to punish those who break the terms and requirements for receiving aid funds from the WAPF.

Structures the WAPF to receive funds from three major sources: The World Assembly itself, donations from the member nations of the World Assembly, and donations from private citizens and corporations.

Establishes programs that assist the impoverished to ascend from poverty through teaching those who qualify a profession that will allow them to apply for and receive employment in that field, where they will be self-sufficient and no longer require assistance from the WAPC, its subsidiaries, or any national welfare within the compliant nations.

Requires the beneficiaries of funds allocated from the WAPF to submit to regular drug testing for alcohol, tobacco, narcotics, marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamines and hallucinogens for as long as they are receiving any assistance from the WAPC or its subsidiaries, and requires the WAPC to immediately cut off any future funding or assistance to any beneficiary who tests positive for any combination of these substances and place their name on a WAPC blacklist to prevent any funds from ever being allocated to the offending beneficiary. This clause is independent of each sovereign nation's stance on alcohol, tobacco and drug use and does not attempt to change any sovereign nation's stance on alcohol, tobacco or drug use.

Establishes programs that assist struggling businesses through grants and loans provided to the business to assist its financial growth such that said business can employ more workers and assist the growth of the national and world economy.

Requires any business that is allotted an aid package by the WAPC to create a positive cash flow within six months of the receipt of the aid package and allows the WAPTC to, independent of national law enforcement, restructure the business to achieve higher efficiency and positive cash flow. This gives the WAPTC the right to hire and fire any upper management employees they deem necessary.

Requires the law enforcement agencies of any nation containing the primary headquarters of a business that uses WAPF money to grant executive pay increases or bonuses to arrest, charge with grand theft and fraud, and try in their criminal justice system any member who voted for or received said bonuses or pay increases, and grants the WAPTF the authority to view the minutes from any relevant meetings to determine defendants.

Here's my new version of the proposal, with a lot more detail, addressing the HoC violation, adding restriction and enforcement and addressing other issues I saw.

Don't be too surprised if this one needs major changes as well.

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Task Force (WAPTF) as a subsidiary of the WAPC that is the lead body in enforcement of requirements of the WAPC aid packages to work with the law enforcement of the member nations to punish those who break the terms and requirements for receiving aid funds from the WAPF.

This would be illegal. It is the creation of a world police force, which is against the rules for proposals.

Structures the WAPF to receive funds from three major sources: The World Assembly itself, donations from the member nations of the World Assembly, and donations from private citizens and corporations.

This is still giving fuel to arguments of bias, due to the other sources of contribution.

Establishes programs that assist the impoverished to ascend from poverty through teaching those who qualify a profession that will allow them to apply for and receive employment in that field, where they will be self-sufficient and no longer require assistance from the WAPC, its subsidiaries, or any national welfare within the compliant nations.

This could use a minor tweak. It should state it tailors the programs to the individual economic setup of the nation the citizen is in. Worded as is, it logically does anyway, but outright stating it leaves no question on the matter.

Requires the beneficiaries of funds allocated from the WAPF to submit to regular drug testing for alcohol, tobacco, narcotics, marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamines and hallucinogens for as long as they are receiving any assistance from the WAPC or its subsidiaries, and requires the WAPC to immediately cut off any future funding or assistance to any beneficiary who tests positive for any combination of these substances and place their name on a WAPC blacklist to prevent any funds from ever being allocated to the offending beneficiary. This clause is independent of each sovereign nation's stance on alcohol, tobacco and drug use and does not attempt to change any sovereign nation's stance on alcohol, tobacco or drug use.

I bolded the ones that are going to cause major issues with this.

Tobacco is entirely legal in some nations, and there are several jobs it does not impede a person's ability to do unless cancer sets in. In effect, this is creating a form of a ban on the drug among people of a certain economic status if they wish to leave that status.

Narcotics and methamphetamines (sic) don't just cover illegal drugs. There are a large number of legal drugs that fit in one, or both, categories, which are required for certain health conditions. I should also note that this bans anyone who takes pills to help them sleep at night (which is what narcotic drugs do, as opposed to stimulants such as caffeine, morphine, and heroin).

And marijuana? If NS is anything like real life on that one, you are wading into the middle of a war done and then doing the nani nani dance at one of the sides. Plus, marijuana itself has recognized medicinal uses.

Hallucinogens is an issue that easily walks right into the area of the right of religious freedom. A number of religions incorporate hallucinogens into their practices. I think you can see where banning the usage of those would be discrimination against someone because of a religious practice.

I would suggest that altering it to where the standards take into account a nation's individual drug laws would be a good idea. If a nation views the idea of taking hallucinogens as a good thing, but someone who is poor tries to stop being poor and they don't take hallucinogens, you will be effectively handicapping that person to the point they might never escape poverty, while those who are adapted to societal norms for that nation would never benefit from this.

Establishes programs that assist struggling businesses through grants and loans provided to the business to assist its financial growth such that said business can employ more workers and assist the growth of the national and world economy.

If the business fails, does it still have to pay back the loan?

Requires any business that is allotted an aid package by the WAPC to create a positive cash flow within six months of the receipt of the aid package and allows the WAPTC to, independent of national law enforcement, restructure the business to achieve higher efficiency and positive cash flow. This gives the WAPTC the right to hire and fire any upper management employees they deem necessary.

Remove this section entirely. This effectively puts all businesses that benefit from this under the control of the WA, which I'm pretty sure is illegal due to it acting as an international police force for benefitting corporations.

Requires the law enforcement agencies of any nation containing the primary headquarters of a business that uses WAPF money to grant executive pay increases or bonuses to arrest, charge with grand theft and fraud, and try in their criminal justice system any member who voted for or received said bonuses or pay increases, and grants the WAPTF the authority to view the minutes from any relevant meetings to determine defendants.

Remove this section as well. For one thing, some of those items might not even be illegal within the nation it happens in. All that would happen is a waste of the court's time, an acquittal of the people charged, and your illegal world police force getting a copy of court proceedings that they can't actually do anything with except fume.

This would be illegal. It is the creation of a world police force, which is against the rules for proposals.
While I'll refrain from commenting on the rest of the proposal, mostly because I lack the necessary time, but partly because others are doing a fine job already, I will comment on this part. I do not believe that the WAPTF violates the world police force ban. The WAPTF simply assists local law enforcement in enforcing the terms and requirements set forth. The wording is vague in that it does underhandedly suggest that the WAPTF would be the enforcers, but the law means what the lay says, not what it might imply.

Dr. Bradford Castro
Chief Ambassador, Foreign Affairs Agency
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes

While I'll refrain from commenting on the rest of the proposal, mostly because I lack the necessary time, but partly because others are doing a fine job already, I will comment on this part. I do not believe that the WAPTF violates the world police force ban. The WAPTF simply assists local law enforcement in enforcing the terms and requirements set forth. The wording is vague in that it does underhandedly suggest that the WAPTF would be the enforcers, but the law means what the lay says, not what it might imply.

Dr. Bradford Castro
Chief Ambassador, Foreign Affairs Agency
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes

The key to what makes it illegal is this:

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Task Force (WAPTF) as a subsidiary of the WAPC that is the lead body in enforcement

That makes it an enforcement body. Thus, a police force.

Eluneyasa:

It is my understanding that empowering a body within the resolution to attempt to enforce the dictates of the resolution would not be creating a police force, in any standard sense of the word.

Police, noun. Governmental department, normally and nominally as part of the political executive, to which the state monopoly on the legitimate use of force has been delegated (including non-physical forms of force such as forced detainment, detention, etc) to enforce the laws of the territory over which it has jurisdiction, insure domestic peace, and take action to maintain the public safety and morals.

It is my reading that the resolution as given does not delegate the WAPC the legitimate use of force as outlined above as a key compenent of "police." Specifically, it charges the WAPC with liaising with sovereign state authorities to pursue enforcement. In my reading, at least, WAPC has no power to ENGAGE in any police action whatsoever at all and you're confusing enforcement with policing. Cutting off aid or some such would be an enforcement action, arresting them and charging them with a crime is a policing action. To me it is quite clear that WAPC has no power or authority to do the latter.

However, I also recognize that it would be useful to resolve this question, irregardless of whether or not it remains in the final draft. Thus, I would respectfully suggest that the OP request a decision by moderation upon the legal point.

Eluneyasa:

It is my understanding that empowering a body within the resolution to attempt to enforce the dictates of the resolution would not be creating a police force, in any standard sense of the word.

Police, noun. Governmental department, normally and nominally as part of the political executive, to which the state monopoly on the legitimate use of force has been delegated (including non-physical forms of force such as forced detainment, detention, etc) to enforce the laws of the territory over which it has jurisdiction, insure domestic peace, and take action to maintain the public safety and morals.

It is my reading that the resolution as given does not delegate the WAPC the legitimate use of force as outlined above as a key compenent of "police." Specifically, it charges the WAPC with liaising with sovereign state authorities to pursue enforcement. In my reading, at least, WAPC has no power to ENGAGE in any police action whatsoever at all and you're confusing enforcement with policing. Cutting off aid or some such would be an enforcement action, arresting them and charging them with a crime is a policing action. To me it is quite clear that WAPC has no power or authority to do the latter.

However, I also recognize that it would be useful to resolve this question, irregardless of whether or not it remains in the final draft. Thus, I would respectfully suggest that the OP request a decision by moderation upon the legal point.

First, let's start with a proper definition of the word.

Main Entry: 2police
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural police
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French, from Old French, from Late Latin politia government, administration, from Greek politeia, from politēs citizen, from polis city, state; akin to Sanskrit pur rampart, Lithuanian pilis castle
Date: 1716
1 a: the internal organization or regulation of a political unit through exercise of governmental powers especially with respect to general comfort, health, morals, safety, or prosperity b: control and regulation of affairs affecting the general order and welfare of any unit or area c: the system of laws for effecting such control
2 a: the department of government concerned primarily with maintenance of public order, safety, and health and enforcement of laws and possessing executive, judicial, and legislative powers b: the department of government charged with prevention, detection, and prosecution of public nuisances and crimes
3 a: police force bplural : police officers
4 a: a private organization resembling a police force <campus police> bplural : the members of a private police organization
5 a: the action or process of cleaning and putting in order b: military personnel detailed to perform this function
6: one attempting to regulate or censor a specified field or activity <the fashion police>

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police[2]

Second, the rule on the issue:

The WA doesn't get an army. Nor does it get to form The World Police. This is pretty clear: don't do it.

Source: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=420465

Now, the section in question:

Establishes the World Assembly Poverty Task Force (WAPTF) as a subsidiary of the WAPC that is the lead body in enforcement of requirements of the WAPC aid packages to work with the law enforcement of the member nations to punish those who break the terms and requirements for receiving aid funds from the WAPF.

Note the part I bolded. It, in particular, deals with the WAPTF being the primarily enforcement agency. It's designed to work with local police forces, but it is still the primary enforcement agency. This means it is concerned with the control and regulation of affairs affecting the general order and welfare of the aid packages sent out, specifically in that they follow the guidelines set into place. The very wording of that article makes it a police force.

Of course, it would help to remember that WA resolutions do not need enforcement agencies.

WA Proposals are not optional. Don't try to make one that is. Many 'Mild' Proposals will have phrases such as "RECOMMENDS" or "URGES", which is just fine. The opinionality ban refers to when language such as "Nations can ignore this Resolution if they want," which is right out.

That makes it an enforcement body. Thus, a police force.

If that was it alone, you would have standing. But, when you take in to account the other part of the clause -- "to work with the law enforcement of the member nations to punish those who break the terms and requirements for receiving aid funds from the WAPF" -- the actual purpose of the WAPF comes to light. It does not enforce anything, but rather it works with local law enforcement to help them enforce the mandates, requirements, etc. Helping does not necessarily mean supplying armed forces; it could mean that the WAPF would help write local laws regarding enforcement, or help establish strategic policies, among numerous other things that the ban on a world police force was not intended to hinder.

It is not illegal to create a committee whose job is to make sure aid is used how it is intended to be used. What is illegal is to create a World Assembly law enforcement body that detains citizens and world leaders alike for breaking whatever mandate is passed by the General Assembly. Simply equating policy enforcement to policing in the common sense of the word is shoddy and misuses the intention of the world police ban.

Dr. Bradford Castro
Chief Ambassador, Foreign Affairs Agency
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes

If that was it alone, you would have standing. But, when you take in to account the other part of the clause -- "to work with the law enforcement of the member nations to punish those who break the terms and requirements for receiving aid funds from the WAPF" -- the actual purpose of the WAPF comes to light. It does not enforce anything, but rather it works with local law enforcement to help them enforce the mandates, requirements, etc. Helping does not necessarily mean supplying armed forces; it could mean that the WAPF would help write local laws regarding enforcement, or help establish strategic policies, among numerous other things that the ban on a world police force was not intended to hinder.

It is not illegal to create a committee whose job is to make sure aid is used how it is intended to be used. What is illegal is to create a World Assembly law enforcement body that detains citizens and world leaders alike for breaking whatever mandate is passed by the General Assembly. Simply equating policy enforcement to policing in the common sense of the word is shoddy and misuses the intention of the world police ban.

Equating policy enforcement to a police force isn't stepping outside of the common sense of the word. Specifically, since it is the job of a police force to emforce the policies of a government or governmental body, as set down by law.

That said, if what you're saying is correct, then I could set up a resolution related to keeping world-wide nature reserves clean and include within it a primary enforcement body to oversee regulations of what it necessary to keep it clean as long as that enforcement body is stated to work with local police forces. Nevermind the fact that the proposal I'm talking about would create what amounts to litter police.

Better yet, let's grab a real-life example of this: The United States has a national enforcement agency that exists to enforce laws related to tobacco, firearms, and alcohol. This enforcement agency is also structured to work with local police forces while still being the primary enforcement agency. Do you mean to tell me that the ATF is not, of itself, a national police force?

The ultimate problem with arguments that it isn't a police force is the words "lead enforcement agency." Those do not mean that it just contacts police to do the job. That means it will be leading any and all investigations into items related to potential violations of rules set forth for the handling of those care packages. Unless you can come up with some fancy way of twisting the language to negate the reality of that, it still is a violation of the ban on a world police force.

Now, can we get past people trying to argue that the sky is some shade of color somewhere between green and indigo, accept that the sky is blue, and get back to why it is the tent is missing?

Whether or not it's a police force is kind of irrelevent, simply drop the offending clause and let the automatic compliance handle enforcement. There, problem solved.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

That said, if what you're saying is correct, then I could set up a resolution related to keeping world-wide nature reserves clean and include within it a primary enforcement body to oversee regulations of what it necessary to keep it clean as long as that enforcement body is stated to work with local police forces. Nevermind the fact that the proposal I'm talking about would create what amounts to litter police.

Yes, you very well could. You could even name it the Litter Reduction Task Force, a subsidiary of the World Assembly Environmental Cleanliness Committee, tasked with working with local governments in the writing of anti-litter laws, and providing strategic planning for local litter-law enforcement officers. So long as the World Assembly isn't actually arresting and prosecuting anybody...

Unless you can come up with some fancy way of twisting the language to negate the reality of that, it still is a violation of the ban on a world police force.

Well, it doesn't actually say that it would be "leading any and all investigations into items related to potential violations of rules set forth for the handling of those care packages"... just that it would help local law enforce do so.

But, I digress. Mr. Flibble has the right idea.

Dr. Bradford Castro
Chief Ambassador, Foreign Affairs Agency
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes

That said, if what you're saying is correct, then I could set up a resolution related to keeping world-wide nature reserves clean and include within it a primary enforcement body to oversee regulations of what it necessary to keep it clean as long as that enforcement body is stated to work with local police forces. Nevermind the fact that the proposal I'm talking about would create what amounts to litter police.Heh. A few years ago, a nation called "Elric of Melnibone", who was accidentally delegate of Lazarus, actually did write such a proposal (filed as Moral Decency, not Environmental, though). The proposal wasn't deleted, so it looks like it would be legal.

Ok i will support any resolution on this topic that I think does what i originally indented it to be and I think that the proposal that Divinen created is going to work better then my original

Its not that im not blind to poverty. But i feel that this is trying to mirror Johnson's Great Society and we all see how well that war on poverty fared. The best thing that we can do is help them help themselves. Like providing job training and the like. But not govt hand outs.

That is actually what my original idea was. Maybe i will write a proposal that is just about job training.

Whether or not it's a police force is kind of irrelevent, simply drop the offending clause and let the automatic compliance handle enforcement. There, problem solved.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

Which is what I tried to hint at when I posted that quote on enforcement :D

I agree one hundred percent with Eluneyasa

With respect to the honoured Ambassador of Serras-Dia, you lost us at the word "war".

Well the phrase war was just used because i thought it seemed appropriate since the plan was to fight poverty.

Well the phrase war was just used because i thought it seemed appropriate since the plan was to fight poverty.

Indeed, it betrays a mindset that is doomed to failure by regarding the issue as a conflict.

good point i will change war to fight

Whoever it was (can't be arsed to check) that noticed what I meant for my task force, thank you. My task force isn't supposed to be an armed police force that goes out and arrests people. They are actually supposed to be such things as desk workers, clerks, etc. (maybe some lawyers just in case lawyers might be needed for something), who process claims of aid fraud and send out the names of violators to local police forces, who arrest and charge with theft said violators. They were never meant to be an actual police force and were never meant to be armed or arrest anyone on their own. I'll work on changing the language in the proposal.

I included tobacco because tobacco is very expensive and harmful to its users' health. If you are so poor that you are receiving aid from the World Assembly, you can't afford tobacco. It can easily be removed if it is needed to for the resolution to pass and I wouldn't have any problem with it being removed.

Narcotics, hallucinogens, and marijuana on the other hand have to stay. I could include a medicinal clause for narcotic painkillers and medicinal marijuana to address your concerns about that, but people who are on such drugs and are poor are way more often than not drug addicts, and drug addicts do not belong around dangerous equipment or processing important paperwork.

I'll use my own nation as an example for this, our largest industries include automobile manufacturing and nuclear power. Such industries are dangerous for their workers anyway, but we have strict safety regulations in place to protect our workers. Now imagine what happens when we take people who are stoned out of their minds and put them on the factory floor. They are many times more prone to cause a fatal accident in an auto manufacturing plant than an average auto worker. In a nuclear power plant that fatal accident that kills three is now transformed into a massive nuclear meltdown that kills hundreds, injures thousands and irradiates and mutates millions.

Drug addicts are also many times more likely to make errors in a desk job too. It's not quite like messing up in a factory or a nuclear facility, but a drug-addicted desk jockey misspelling a name might cause the wrong patient to be brought into surgery while the person who is supposed to be operated on dies because he couldn't have his open heart surgery.

It's not to penalize those who use drugs legally, it's to keep people who are stoned out of the workplace and keep the workers who got the job without the WA safe.

Whoever it was (can't be arsed to check) that noticed what I meant for my task force, thank you. My task force isn't supposed to be an armed police force that goes out and arrests people. They are actually supposed to be such things as desk workers, clerks, etc. (maybe some lawyers just in case lawyers might be needed for something), who process claims of aid fraud and send out the names of violators to local police forces, who arrest and charge with theft said violators. They were never meant to be an actual police force and were never meant to be armed or arrest anyone on their own. I'll work on changing the language in the proposal.

There's still no need for an enforcement agency of any sort; the rules of WA proposals make these automatically enforced.

I included tobacco because tobacco is very expensive and harmful to its users' health. If you are so poor that you are receiving aid from the World Assembly, you can't afford tobacco. It can easily be removed if it is needed to for the resolution to pass and I wouldn't have any problem with it being removed.

This is inaccurate. In the modern world, tobacco and tobacco products are actually quite cheap; it's the vast amount of taxes, along with a couple of lawsuits, that drive the taxes up. The reliance of several sections of the United States on taxes from tobacco is to the point that a couple of states would be forced to declare bankruptcy if people stopped smoking, not to mention all of the funding cuts to medical programs that would be forced.

Also, tobacco itself isn't that harmful. Nicotine has a number of beneficial health benefits along with its bad side-effect, and the reduction of oxygen in the blood that comes with smoking can actually slow the growth of cancers. The primary problem is the number of additives to cigarettes (such as tar) which also provide the majority of the health problems related to smoking. That's not to say nicotine itself is without problems; it's addictive and known to cause cancer. Plus, there's always the effects chewing tobacco itself has. But, on the whole, tobacco itself is less unhealthy than the modern cigarette.

I'm not saying I'm a supporter of smoking. In person, I typically avoid cigarettes and cigars. However, there are too many ways for nations in this game to have gone around the real-world issues of tobacco for the inclusion of a ban on it to be there.

Narcotics, hallucinogens, and marijuana on the other hand have to stay. I could include a medicinal clause for narcotic painkillers and medicinal marijuana to address your concerns about that, but people who are on such drugs and are poor are way more often than not drug addicts, and drug addicts do not belong around dangerous equipment or processing important paperwork.

Most of the people on narcotics are not drug addicts. The cheapest form of narcotics are over the counter sleeping pills. While addiction is possible, and does happen, it's not an expensive habit and I doubt that most people actually get addicted to them. I would suggest altering it to where people don't get aid if they take illegal narcotics, hallucinogens, and marijuana and leave it up to the individual nations to decide what's illegal and what isn't. You don't have the length in this to cover all of the nuances of drug usage.

Drug addicts are also many times more likely to make errors in a desk job too. It's not quite like messing up in a factory or a nuclear facility, but a drug-addicted desk jockey misspelling a name might cause the wrong patient to be brought into surgery while the person who is supposed to be operated on dies because he couldn't have his open heart surgery.

Not entirely true, but true enough. It depends on what they are addicted to. In most cases, I think I would agree with you on this one; even addiction to legal drugs can have severe effects upon a person's ability to perform their job/

It's not to penalize those who use drugs legally, it's to keep people who are stoned out of the workplace and keep the workers who got the job without the WA safe.

That's why I suggested you leave it up to the nations themselves to decide what's legal and what isn't for compliance with this. It avoids problems with banning drugs that are legal for a good reason in one nation while allowing them to remain illegal in others. It's not a perfect solution, but keep in mind some of the nations who post to this board include a future-tech nation based off of World of Warcraft, a nation of whales, a nation of bears, and a nation of communist robots. Some of those may be joke nations, but some of them are also serious.

Ok, tobacco will be completely removed from the proposal, since it doesn't cause workplaces to become unsafe from people using it. (Smoking bans in the workplace are a different issue entirely)

The major additions I made to the draft were to prevent the squandering of WA money on people who weren't willing to help us help them. The no drugs policy, the business takeover policy, the executive bonus policy, that's what they're for. It's to stop WA money from going into the hands of theives.

Let's take Frank, Joe, and Matt, all residents of the high crime North Side in Divinen City.

Joe is a hard working man who does not use drugs or get drunk all the time. He is poor because he was forced to drop out at sixteen to support his family. He earns his meager living by working odd jobs, which are hard to come by in the North Side. He sometimes runs drugs between cartel and dealer, sometimes he carries building supplies, and often there is no work for Joe. Joe survives by eating garbage out of a dumpster behind a local bar.

Frank is a hardcore heroin addict. He steals for a living and spends it all on heroin. If he isn't asleep, he is either stoned or trying to get stoned. He is poor because nobody will hire a heroin addict. He mugs people on the street with a switchblade knife, and kills them if they refuse to give him money. He eats garbage like Joe because he spends all his money on heroin.

Matt used to be a uranium miner for Divinen General Uranium, but then he started drinking heavily. He started drinking only on weekends, but now he drinks whiskey every day. He was fired from the uranium mine for showing up to work drunk and reeking of whiskey. Now he lives in the North Side after being evicted from his apartment for failure to pay his rent.

The WA workshop is built. It provides Joe, Frank and Matt with nutritious food, clean water, and a bed to sleep in, and provides them with classes to learn a trade. Joe is signed up for a truck driving class, Frank for auto repair, and Matt for carpentry.

Joe goes to his classes every day and studies everything he is told to study. He learns how to drive a truck and learns to drive it well. He gets a job for J.T. Marjini Trucking and is paid a trucker's salary shipping raw uranium from the uranium mines to the processing plants. In five years he has an apartment, his own car, and a girlfriend he takes out when he isn't off shipping uranium.

Frank eats the food and drinks the water at the WA workshop, replenishing his spent body of its energy. With his newfound energy, he is more adept at committing crimes of violence. He mugs someone and steals their bus pass, rides the bus into the rich section of town, and he mugs people there for much more money than he could get in the North Side. He still shoots heroin and now can afford it more since his victims have more money. He continues to cost the WA money to feed and house him but is not getting out of poverty. He is still a criminal, and in five years he is dead, shot to death by an off-duty police officer while trying to rob him at knifepoint.

Matt goes to the WA workshop and goes to his classes for carpentry. But he often misses, and when he does go he is drunk. He manages to learn carpentry, but not as well as he could have, and it takes him three times as long to learn it. The WA gets him a job with Myrin & Solnox Construction. He uses his new money to get alcohol at a much larger rate than before. In five years he is back in the North Side in the same situation he was before the WA.

The drug testing would detect the heroin in Frank's system and the alcohol in Matt's, but would show Joe as clean. Matt is sent back out on the streets and the WA is saved thousands of dollars. Frank is arrested by the local law enforcement working at the WA workshop and charged with all the muggings he's wanted for. And Joe gets in and gets his training to drive a truck and gets his job hauling uranium ore around Divinen.

The executive bonus policy and the business takeover thing is to prevent NS versions of Citigroup and AIG from happening. Honestly I would like to scrap the entire business section of it after review though.

And if automatic compliance deals with people who defraud my system, then so be it, I'll take out my task force bit.

Ok, tobacco will be completely removed from the proposal, since it doesn't cause workplaces to become unsafe from people using it. (Smoking bans in the workplace are a different issue entirely)

Heh. Now, banning smoking for health reasons... that's a proposal I'd like to see someone try to tackle.

The major additions I made to the draft were to prevent the squandering of WA money on people who weren't willing to help us help them. The no drugs policy, the business takeover policy, the executive bonus policy, that's what they're for. It's to stop WA money from going into the hands of theives.

Let's take Frank, Joe, and Matt, all residents of the high crime North Side in Divinen City.

Joe is a hard working man who does not use drugs or get drunk all the time. He is poor because he was forced to drop out at sixteen to support his family. He earns his meager living by working odd jobs, which are hard to come by in the North Side. He sometimes runs drugs between cartel and dealer, sometimes he carries building supplies, and often there is no work for Joe. Joe survives by eating garbage out of a dumpster behind a local bar.

Frank is a hardcore heroin addict. He steals for a living and spends it all on heroin. If he isn't asleep, he is either stoned or trying to get stoned. He is poor because nobody will hire a heroin addict. He mugs people on the street with a switchblade knife, and kills them if they refuse to give him money. He eats garbage like Joe because he spends all his money on heroin.

Matt used to be a uranium miner for Divinen General Uranium, but then he started drinking heavily. He started drinking only on weekends, but now he drinks whiskey every day. He was fired from the uranium mine for showing up to work drunk and reeking of whiskey. Now he lives in the North Side after being evicted from his apartment for failure to pay his rent.

Alcohol you don't get an argument from me on. Abuse of it can cause too many issues. Proper, moderate use of it can have health benefits, but moderate use shouldn't show up in a drug test anyway.

As for heroin: Under the standards of your proposal (the last draft I found of it), it's perfectly legal for people to take it and receive aid. Heroin is neither a narcotic or a methamphetamine; it's a stimulant. And, in the real-world, it's a prescription pain medication in the United Kingdom. It's also a prescription drug in Canada, Hong Kong, and several other nations. The fact it has legitimate medical uses in some countries but not in others in the real world means that, likely, you're only causing cases where people would disqualify for benefits just because they have a medical condition and it's the drug local doctors prescribe for that condition.

As for methamphetamines: They're used in inhalers for treating congestion. Once again, banning people with medical conditions.

I'm also pretty sure I could, if I bothered, find some hallucinogens with legitimate medical uses. But, you're already tagged on the religious practices one, as your proposal would discriminate in that area. So far, the only way a person is guaranteed to get benefits under this is to be poor, in perfect health, and an athiest. The odds of those three happening together are not good. Not laughable, as in real life, but still not good.

The WA workshop is built. It provides Joe, Frank and Matt with nutritious food, clean water, and a bed to sleep in, and provides them with classes to learn a trade. Joe is signed up for a truck driving class, Frank for auto repair, and Matt for carpentry.

Joe goes to his classes every day and studies everything he is told to study. He learns how to drive a truck and learns to drive it well. He gets a job for J.T. Marjini Trucking and is paid a trucker's salary shipping raw uranium from the uranium mines to the processing plants. In five years he has an apartment, his own car, and a girlfriend he takes out when he isn't off shipping uranium.

Frank eats the food and drinks the water at the WA workshop, replenishing his spent body of its energy. With his newfound energy, he is more adept at committing crimes of violence. He mugs someone and steals their bus pass, rides the bus into the rich section of town, and he mugs people there for much more money than he could get in the North Side. He still shoots heroin and now can afford it more since his victims have more money. He continues to cost the WA money to feed and house him but is not getting out of poverty. He is still a criminal, and in five years he is dead, shot to death by an off-duty police officer while trying to rob him at knifepoint.

Matt goes to the WA workshop and goes to his classes for carpentry. But he often misses, and when he does go he is drunk. He manages to learn carpentry, but not as well as he could have, and it takes him three times as long to learn it. The WA gets him a job with Myrin & Solnox Construction. He uses his new money to get alcohol at a much larger rate than before. In five years he is back in the North Side in the same situation he was before the WA.

The drug testing would detect the heroin in Frank's system and the alcohol in Matt's, but would show Joe as clean. Matt is sent back out on the streets and the WA is saved thousands of dollars. Frank is arrested by the local law enforcement working at the WA workshop and charged with all the muggings he's wanted for. And Joe gets in and gets his training to drive a truck and gets his job hauling uranium ore around Divinen.

Meh.

The executive bonus policy and the business takeover thing is to prevent NS versions of Citigroup and AIG from happening. Honestly I would like to scrap the entire business section of it after review though.

To be honest, I didn't find it a necessary section. This is aimed at helping poor people; if they start a business, it's probably going to be years before the question of executive bonuses even comes up. By that point, they've probably either gone under or paid back the loan. In either case, this money wouldn't be involved by then.

And if automatic compliance deals with people who defraud my system, then so be it, I'll take out my task force bit.

Yay! *bounce* Sorry, just a section that will generate even more headaches than the ones already in place.

I would just like to point out that some nations allow recreational drug use freely. They have for ages. The Republic allows it for the simple reason that we have managed to figure out how to keep these drugs from affecting people in negative ways.

Not only are there legitimate reasons for people using these recreational drugs, either for medical or religious purposes, but there are nations who have circumvented the harmful effects. Keep in mind that not everyone is on the same technological level.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador