NationStates Jolt Archive

There is no point to playing the WA side of the game anymore as there are hardly ever any votes of substance. Proposals that don't get banned by overpowered dictating mods who look for any excuse to delete anything they don't like, end up failing to get quorum because of all the delegates that don't do their job. Nothing ever happens. I'm gonna go play trukz instead and perhaps one day NS2 actually won't be in maintenance.

If you're referring to the three warnings you've gotten for submitting illegal proposals, perhaps you should check the rules thread to see why they keep getting deleted.

We "overpowered dictating mods" can't address your issues unless we've got some indication of why you think we're acting on personal opinion rather than the published rules. Perhaps you could provide the text of your proposals for discussion rather than just flinging poo around the room.

The Game should offer a secondary Assembly as an option instead of just the WA, basically being the opposed values, a full contrast to the current structure.

Of course an opposite to the WA would have to be a... AW (Association of Worlds? )

The Game should offer a secondary Assembly as an option instead of just the WA, basically being the opposed values, a full contrast to the current structure.

Of course an opposite to the WA would have to be a... AW (Association of Worlds? )

You know, there have been people wanting this since I started playing back in 2004, and I can tell you that it ain't gonna happen.

You can form whatever assemblies, leagues, alliances, or clubs with secret handshakes and clubhouses that you want, and RP them on the forums. They'll never become a game function though.

I also can't fathom why in the world we need a second version of the WA.

I also can't fathom why in the world we need a second version of the WA.

I know, especially since we're so overwhelmed with activity at the moment.:rolleyes:

I know, especially since we're so overwhelmed with activity at the moment.

That's probably because the extreme strictness and structure, and (with respect to the mods) moderation has turned people off the WA, and the sort of argument Klemonland is trying to make. Its time for a new sort of order to compete with the WA, hell it might just make the WA better (a little vinegar goes a long way with vegetables if you know what I mean). This sort of order would do everything the WA refrains from doing, (World Police, Corruption with Multis...ect) to show a different spectrum and dimension to international orders.

I'd like to see that, that's all. I'm obviously thinking fairly abstractly at the moment.

Don't like it? Don't play it

Six very simple words

Don't play it

Well that's exactly what people are doing (if they're not kicked out of the WA before they can quit themselves), maybe someone should do more about it than six simple words.

If you want a proposal to vote on, write one and telegram for it.

I do actually agree it's pretty boring having nothing to vote on, but as I don't have the time to write and campaign for a proposal, I don't intend on being a complete dick by whining about it like a spoiled brat.

i think the respected ambassador, who started the thread, underestimates the work and time nations take into making and trying to pass resolutions or proposals. he seems to be dumb-founded when it comes to the debates. these forums are always alive with relative activity. and it takes time to come up with good resolutions. if we had anyone giving the craziest proposals, the WA would be worse than it currently is.

Wachichi

you may have to wait a long time for votes, however, the ones that make it, are usually worth the effort to oppose or approve them.

Another point about this game is that it is too much forum based. The game should be mostly taking place in the game, not the forum. This is conventional for every online game. I think the situation now is that there is the expectation to use the forum if you want to get anything done whereas it should be possible to simply make a proposal and let the delegates decide, rather than the mods. It is the delegates job after all and the only proposals that mods should concern themselves with should be game mechanics and abuse. No more. It is high time the rules are loosened somewhat or this game will die. The lack of voting activity of late just shows it. As far as the 6 word phrase goes, I left the WA this morning, before the idea was mentioned.

In the year that I've been around, I've noticed times where there's several proposals in queue waiting to be voted on, and times where there's been nothing for a few weeks. It's comes in high and low points.

As for the forums, I rather like them. It gives a more realistic feel for me. If you want a game that's not overly forum based, go try NS2. It's not overly forum based and you can create an alliance and run it however you want.

Also I withdraw my comment about "overpowered dictating mods", and redirect my scorn and disdain towards the rules. Sorry Mods, I guess you are just doing your job, but the rules you have been given to work with and that you strive to uphold might be ready for a review. It's a discussion well worth opening.

In the year that I've been around, I've noticed times where there's several proposals in queue waiting to be voted on, and times where there's been nothing for a few weeks. It's comes in high and low points.

As for the forums, I rather like them. It gives a more realistic feel for me. If you want a game that's not overly forum based, go try NS2. It's not overly forum based and you can create an alliance and run it however you want.

Re NS2: Unforunately not my pick. I also like to have a game that's not in maintenance 24/7

Another point about this game is that it is too much forum based. The game should be mostly taking place in the game, not the forum. This is conventional for every online game. I think the situation now is that there is the expectation to use the forum if you want to get anything done whereas it should be possible to simply make a proposal and let the delegates decide, rather than the mods. It is the delegates job after all and the only proposals that mods should concern themselves with should be game mechanics and abuse. No more. It is high time the rules are loosened somewhat or this game will die. The lack of voting activity of late just shows it. As far as the 6 word phrase goes, I left the WA this morning, before the idea was mentioned.

i don't think the respected ambassador understood my previous statements. it's because of these forums, that proposals that are jokes don't get passed. these forums allow for debate on the proposal. it has greatly improved horrible proposals, and it make the game much more interesting. without it, we would have well written proposals. we would have amateurs writing up proposals with no sense or gramatical correctness. it would be a disgrace. never have i seen a badly written proposal become law. and the proposals that have passed, went through large debate, and changes. it brings the nations of the game together to improve resolutions.

it also helps new comers set up better proposals(as it had helped me on my first proposal.) i now know much more about writing proposals and know how to write them and i always advise other nations on their proposals.

also the delegates don't have to vote. does a nation in the U.N. have to vote? no. it can abstain. not voting is basically like abstaining.

Wachichi.

if the forums are so useless, aren't they at least useful in helping show your anger at the game itself? so maybe you should be thanking the site for making the forum. :D

Re NS2: Unforunately not my pick. I also like to have a game that's not in maintenance 24/7

It's not in maintenance 24/7 for me. Works fairly well, a little buggy still, but then again, it's still in beta testing. Just an open beta.

However, if you aren't happy here, why bother coming on the forums and making complaints. The game most likely won't get changed. Why not just move on somewhere else?

maybe we shouldn't be scaring people from the game. instead we should prove him wrong. not discourage him.

Wachichi

Also I withdraw my comment about "overpowered dictating mods", and redirect my scorn and disdain towards the rules. Sorry Mods, I guess you are just doing your job, but the rules you have been given to work with and that you strive to uphold might be ready for a review. It's a discussion well worth opening.Yeah, except that I wrote those rules with input from the player base. To repeat the moderator that you completely ignored, "perhaps you could provide the text of your proposals for discussion rather than just flinging poo around the room."

As far as the 6 word phrase goes, I left the WA this morning, before the idea was mentioned.Good riddance. Go whine about something else. Preferably about another game, on another forum.

It's called a beta. And I haven't had problems with it in weeks. And I see no problem with the WA rules. They basically just stop ideological bans and game mechanics violations. And then, sure, you're not allowed to mention RL, but, then again, we're playing NS, not RL.

The other rules are just mostly obvious ones: a proposal must, well, propose to do something and it can't be too overly retarded an idea.

Good riddance. Go whine about something else. Preferably about another game, on another forum.

Well, this is the most strongly-worded response. Since there are apparently too many active WA members, I guess I'll leave, too.

That's probably because the extreme strictness and structure, and (with respect to the mods) moderation has turned people off the WA, and the sort of argument Klemonland is trying to make.With all due respect, BULLSHIT! The proposal rules (in one form or another) and the consequences for breaking them have been in place since I started playing this game back in January 2004.
Its time for a new sort of order to compete with the WA, hell it might just make the WA better (a little vinegar goes a long way with vegetables if you know what I mean). This sort of order would do everything the WA refrains from doing, (World Police, Corruption with Multis...ect) to show a different spectrum and dimension to international orders. As I stated earlier, there will never be a second WA put into the game, the admins simply aren't going to do it no matter how much whine, bitch, kvetch, moan, groan, and complain about it. And as for the corruption with multis, if you think someone's a WA multi, file a Getting Help (http://www.nationstates.net/97178/page=help) report and the mods will investigate, that's their job.

Well, this is the most strongly-worded response. Since there are apparently too many active WA members, I guess I'll leave, too.


O.O.C. Well I'm sure I speak for the entire w.a. when I express my personal regret at this action. Ondars we knew you too briefly, but your light shone as bright as a thousand suns. Ciao.

I suppose it wouldn't be possible for the WA to vote on the creation of the AW (or something similar) without it crossing the very strict (and understandable) rule about Acts not being about game mechanics. I suppose, unless.... auuufjvbl;... nevermind.

But I mean, wouldn't it be awesome,

It could be the opposite of the WA, with a world police force (unlike the WA), that would intervene in WA problems and possibly even compete for nuclear supremacy. Regions could have a WA delegate or a AW delegate depending on where the most votes go to, so there would be a sort of battle between the WA and AW for leadership of a region. Some regions being represented in the WA and others in the AW.

Sorry, if you don't really care about my blabbering.

And as for the corruption with multis, if you think someone's a WA multi,

Bud, I was saying multis would be awesome, I wasn't complaining about someone having them. Corruption in that sense would make my day.

BULLSHIT! The proposal rules (in one form or another) and the consequences for breaking them have been in place since I started playing this game back in January 2004.

Wasn't The Most Glorious Hack just saying that the rules were created with player imput, of course people are going to be happy about rules they created. The problem we have now is, that those people have either gone on to gain power and respect as a mod or have been pissed on by the WA, becoming frustrated and bored enough to leave, which puts people who haven't been playing since the beginning in an awkward position, following rules that seem too heavily enforced, because a LONG, LONG time ago, people liked the rules (because they created them). It's time our NS generation stood up for themselves.

O.O.C. I haven't been here terribly long and I happen to think that the rules are eminently sensible. They balance the needs of the game and the players appetite for rp very cleverly. I see no cause to change them very drastically. The "AW" your describing actually sounds rather bizarre and unedifying, and would undoubtedly be rather pointless.

U.

I suppose it wouldn't be possible for the WA to vote on the creation of the AW (or something similar) without it crossing the very strict (and understandable) rule about Acts not being about game mechanics. I suppose, unless.... auuufjvbl;... nevermind.

But I mean, wouldn't it be awesome,

It could be the opposite of the WA, with a world police force (unlike the WA), that would intervene in WA problems and possibly even compete for nuclear supremacy. Regions could have a WA delegate or a AW delegate depending on where the most votes go to, so there would be a sort of battle between the WA and AW for leadership of a region. Some regions being represented in the WA and others in the AW.

Sorry, if you don't really care about my blabbering.It's not gonna happen. How many times do we have to say it before you believe it's true? The mods have shot down every single proposal for an "anti-WA" every time it's proposed; they're not going to bite this time. And even if they did, they don't allow a military force for the WA; what makes you think they'll approve one only for the rival org?

Wasn't The Most Glorious Hack just saying that the rules were created with player imput, of course people are going to be happy about rules they created. The problem we have now is, that those people have either gone on to gain power and respect as a mod or have been pissed on by the WA, becoming frustrated and bored enough to leave, which puts people who haven't been playing since the beginning in an awkward position, following rules that seem too heavily enforced, because a LONG, LONG time ago, people liked the rules (because they created them). It's time our NS generation stood up for themselves.Every game has rules, kiddo, and they're going to be overhauled or tossed out just because you find yourselves in the "unique" position of claiming they're unfair. If you took the time to actually read them, you might find that they're very easy to digest.

It could be the opposite of the WA, with a world police force (unlike the WA),
Which would require a complete rewrite of the game code. None of the admins have 4 months of free time to recode this free game. We call that activity "Game Mechanics".

that would intervene in WA problems and possibly even compete for nuclear supremacy.
Pray tell how you would automate translating text resolutions into actual game activity? Or do you mean that it would mandate that the 2-3 active WA mods take a DIRECT hand in inter-nation events, and would be required to adjudicate and adjust 66,172 nations in 8,203 regions by hand?

Regions could have a WA delegate or a AW delegate depending on where the most votes go to, so there would be a sort of battle between the WA and AW for leadership of a region. Some regions being represented in the WA and others in the AW.
Thanks to that complete rewrite of the game that this would require.


We already have a new game. It's called NationStates2. It has multiple competing alliances. Go play that one.

Which would require a complete rewrite of the game code. None of the admins have 4 months of free time to recode this free game. We call that activity "Game Mechanics".
Would a World Police really involve rewriting code? Everything else pertaining to the WA practically is forum based or just plain imaginary.



Maybe NationStates could adopt a sort of Open Source form.
So are hard working mods could get some help to put these long overdue shelved projects turning.

We already have a new game. It's called NationStates2.

and it SUCKS!

Would a World Police really involve rewriting code? Everything else pertaining to the WA practically is forum based or just plain imaginary. Technically, the whole "No WA police/military" rule is due to the RP nature of war in this game. In order for a WA police/military to be fair it would have to be RPed by a mod and they don't need anything more added to their duties.

Maybe NationStates could adopt a sort of Open Source form.
So are hard working mods could get some help to put these long overdue shelved projects turning.

And exactly what "long overdue shelved projects" are you referring to? If you're talking about implementing some sort of parallel WA that's NEVER been a project. It never has been, and never will be. What's it going to take to convince you that this crackpot idea of yours isn't going to fly? Do we have to ask Max Barry to resurrect Maxtopia, come into the forum and make a post just to tell you that?

Would a World Police really involve rewriting code? Everything else pertaining to the WA practically is forum based or just plain imaginary.



Maybe NationStates could adopt a sort of Open Source form.
So are hard working mods could get some help to put these long overdue shelved projects turning.


O.O.C. What "Shelved Projects" ? Is a W.A. police force one of these "Projects" ? Is there any evidence that a good enough resolution could be written to create such a thing? Have you written one?

NEVER been a project

According to everyone that keeps telling me to shut up, the Parallel WA has been a topic among many for years, well before my time that is. I don't need to hear any more people questioning my sanity, my crackpot ideas are something I want to follow a lot more than rules made by people who apparently have no aspiration for creative thought or questioning authority, which should be the basis of a political game not the antithesis.

O.O.C. How Tiresome.

Have you written one

Follow this Link for further reference (http://associationofworlds.googlepages.com/)

A Ten Second Piece of Work, that could easily have been done by anybody, but still.

Follow this Link for further reference (http://associationofworlds.googlepages.com/)

A Ten Second Piece of Work, that could easily have been done by anybody, but still.


O.O.C. Do you seriously think that what you've written constitutes even an approximation of a law rather than a randomly associated group of meaningless phrases?

approximation of a law

Well, have you seen Violet's act to erect the WA, that wasn't exactly full out political poetry either (Don't get me wrong, I think Violet's great). Sorry to have insulted your intelligence with my ideas, maybe I could just become a law abiding-cynical realist and get along with the rest of the NS universe apparently.

Well, have you seen Violet's act to erect the WA, that was exactly full out political poetry either (Don't get me wrong, I think Violet's great). Sorry to have insulted your intelligence with my ideas, maybe I could just become a law abiding-cynical realist and get along with the rest of the NS universe apparently.


O.O.C.nobody wants you to be anything you don't want to be. It would be nice if you offered sensible, clever and well written ideas instead of insulting everyone though.

Well, have you seen Violet's act to erect the WA, that was exactly full out political poetry either (Don't get me wrong, I think Violet's great). Sorry to have insulted your intelligence with my ideas, maybe I could just become a law abiding-cynical realist and get along with the rest of the NS universe apparently.
Violet's act has the advantage of being in grammatically correct English. It was also accompanied by (at a guess) a spare-time month of recoding the game, negotiations with Jolt over the forums, and so forth. Your "little proposal" would need to be accompanied by (at a guess) man-years of recoding the game, a large fraction of which would be a game AI to analyse, moderate, and reflect in national stats the roleplaying activity on the forums. Good luck with writing that.

You talk about this "shelved proposal" as if it ever made it as far as the shelf. It never has. It's a non-starter, and always has been. You don't need to become a cynical realist -- any sort of realist will do.

True. I could stop being a jerk. Maybe I will. Maybe I will.

Fair enough, but sensible, clever and well written aren't words or phrases available in my dictionary (its a very cheap dictionary), no no, I hail from the Land of the Bizarre (not to be confused with the Land of the Bazaar, which would undoubtedly be cooler).

nobody wants you to be anything you don't want to be

At least someone gets it....

Now on to bigger and moderately better ideas.

any sort of realist will do
Well good thing there's others on Earth than realists, or hell, we would of just laughed at Martin Luther King Jr when he had a dream, or spent months burning Lennon Albums and Surrendered to Nazi Germany midwar. Never flying the Kitty Hawk or sending a radio message across the Atlantic, closing the patent office in the late nineteenth century because they're no more useful inventions to be made and thinking the closest will get to the moon is with a telescope.

though i do agree that the WA has deteriorated into a squabling mass of incoherent morons (from what i've seen so far), i see no need for a new world order system.

all the WA needs is for the mods to loosen up on the rules and a few good proposals/repeals to get everyone interested again.

maybe you guys should lower the number of endorsements needed to make a proposal.(stupid suggestion)

squabling mass of incoherent morons

Thanks, my grammar must be dreadful.

all the WA needs is for the mods to loosen up on the rules and a few good proposals/repeals to get everyone interested again.
I can't think of a rule that the mods can loosen up on in practical terms that would make difference. I mean, they could drop the branding rules, but that would be a Bad Thing. Most of the rest of the rules are consequences of the game engine, and can be translated as "Sorry, reality doesn't work like that."

maybe you guys should lower the number of endorsements needed to make a proposal.(stupid suggestion)
Have you seen the proposal queue lately? It makes Sturgeon's Law seem positively optimistic. It's currently easier than I can remember to reach quorum, it really doesn't need to get any easier.

it really doesn't need to get any easier

Good, because I need all the help I can get.

Well good thing there's others on Earth than realists, or hell, we would of just laughed at Martin Luther King Jr when he had a dream, or spent months burning Lennon Albums and Surrendered to Nazi Germany midwar. Never flying the Kitty Hawk or sending a radio message across the Atlantic, closing the patent office in the late nineteenth century because they're no more useful inventions to be made and thinking the closest will get to the moon is with a telescope.


One could just as easily argue that realism was the motivation behind all of these things. The conception that courage, invention, inquiry, and morality are expressions of an unrealistic mindset is entirely misleading and incorrect.

According to everyone that keeps telling me to shut up, the Parallel WA has been a topic among many for years, well before my time that is.It's much like the south rising again. People may go on about it again and again, but that doesn't mean it's going to change. The creator of the game is opposed to the idea. There are no lines of appeal past Max Barry. A parallel WA will not happen, no matter how much you may desire it. Furthermore, it's not like I just tossed the current ruleset up on the forum in a vacuum. Max signed off on them as well.

You may not like it but frankly, this isn't your game; it's Max's.

One could just as easily argue that realism was the motivation behind all of these things
The innovators possibly, but not really. Most of the speech was about idealism, Nicola Tesla was an idealist while Thomas Edison was a rationalist though they appear in the same temperament group in psychology as a rational inventor (ENTP), I was always very fond of this quote from Edison, "Tesla wanted to make electricity to be free for everyone to use, I wanted to make electricity so cheap that only the rich would burn candles".

Is it just me, or has this wondered a little off topic?

Totally.

Erm?? Alternative to WA is no AW. It's RN! Rogue Nations!