NationStates Jolt Archive

Careful analysis generated by rigorous civil discourse within numerous academic and political venues of civilized
states,


NOTING the authoritarian ideology of certain small or young so-called 'religious groups,'

DRAWING YOUR ATTENTION TO the routine acts of coercion and forced world-rejection, community insularity, and even illegal kidnapping perpetrated by small religious sects,

RECOGNIZING that many small religious sects' leaders are demonstrably dishonest or insincere in stating their beliefs or aims,

ASTONISHED at the ability of certain charismatic individuals to dupe the wayward, the disenfranchised, the poor, the confused, and the indigent to abandon large sums of money in the name of corporate-style religious pyramid schemes,

CONCERNED that many of the victims of such groups are drawn into coercive religious sects completely unaware of the level of coercion being deployed, or otherwise unaware of coercive tactics until it is too late to withdraw membership,

HOPING to minimize the damage done to families, individuals, and economies by such coercive sects,

RESPECTING the freedom of religion and the freedom of conscience, which are inviolable foundational principles of civil society, but also recognizing that governments are fully entitled to regulate harmful religious practices without having to regulate beliefs,

DOES HEREBY SUBMIT the following appeals to the World Assembly:

-We call on national governments, through either public schools or through other, non-intrusive and non-sectarian means, educate young people on the dangers of such organizations and the caution individuals must take when committing large amounts of wealth to suspiciously disreputable individuals of great charisma and of the dangers of succumbing to the enticement of corporate religious pyramid schemes.

-We recommend that non-governmental organizations committed to such public awareness activities be at least nominally supported by all member states.

-We strongly urge health and social workers to be educated about the dangers of deferring to the judgment of coercive religious sects and their ideologies in the treatment, conduct, and education of children.

-We call on national governments to treat any organization that routinely defames, robs, kidnaps, or coerces individuals into certain extreme modes of behavior as they would treat any other criminal organization regardless of the de facto "religious" nature of such organizations.

This act is respectfully submitted for the furtherance of human rights, particularly of those individuals who can be led to believe that no other options will avail them of upward socioeconomic mobility than this or that coercive religious sect.

We would find it very hard to support this legislation as we feel as though a separation of peoples faith and government is what makes our nation great. While if a church feels the need to break one of the laws of our land we will prosecute those individuals we can't see supporting a measure that leaves that call to international statues.

One government in this body may condone such behaviors as another banishes. At the very least we would need a much clearer definition as to what defines a coercive sect. That might at least do something to straighten the slippery slope that this resolution may lead to.


Ambassador Nigel S Youlkin
World Assembly Ambassador
The United States of Philimbesi

We would find it very hard to support this legislation as we feel as though a separation of peoples faith and government is what makes our nation great. While if a church feels the need to break one of the laws of our land we will prosecute those individuals we can't see supporting a measure that leaves that call to international statues.

One government in this body may condone such behaviors as another banishes. At the very least we would need a much clearer definition as to what defines a coercive sect. That might at least do something to straighten the slippery slope that this resolution may lead to.


Ambassador Nigel S Youlkin
World Assembly Ambassador
The United States of Philimbesi

Point well taken Ambassador, and of course our legal scribes took great care to avoid sectarian language in the drafting of this bill, but we must disagree on the notion that this bill will somehow infringe upon the sacred rights of conscience and belief that all sane governments permit their citizens to bear. Rather, our aim in crafting this piece of legislation was to encourage governments to essentially do two things:

1. governments should be permitted to prosecute dangerous criminal organizations without feeling pressure to be "light" or "soft" on dangerous criminal organizations that are sufficiently well-versed in the nuanced art of propaganda to treat any prosecution as an infringement on religious liberty. For example, when the dangerous cult known as Scientology argues that freedom of religion permits it to murder Lisa McPherson and get away with it, we note the chilling effect that the language of free religion has on vote-savvy politicians and prosecutors. We find this deference to insincere abuses of sacred principles appalling.
2. governments should be permitted to educate the young on how to avoid pyramid schemes.

Furthermore, we have intentionally left the understanding of the term 'coercive sect' as rather broad in the hope of refusing to permit cults and pyramid schemes to avoid the loopholes that are inevitably generated by attempts to make legal language too precise.

Coercive sects are like pornography: it's tough to define, but you always know it when you see it.

So why not simply ban all coercive organizations and pyramid schemes? You're absolutely right in your response: there really isn't any reason to single out religious organizations for special treatment. So simply drop all the language about religion, and instead make it clear this proposal deals with any organization that brainwashes its members, regardless of their ideological orientation.

Unless...you're not actually interested in doing that, and are instead just yammering on rather pointlessly about your own personal grudge?

-- Samantha Benson
Congressional Liaison, Office of WA Affairs
Quintessence of Dust, Delegate of Wysteria

Yet I will argue that the greatest threat to a people's civil liberties often come disguised as measures to protect them. If a Philimbesian falls prey to fraud, which is what essentially a fraud they have legal recourse to follow.

In the case of this Scientology it seems as though the problem is with your system of laws, murder is murder, and should be prosecuted as such. It matters not the size of the church, or sect, the laws of our land prohibit murder for any reason.

With freedom comes responsibility and one would hope that with responsibility comes common sense. However, when common sense is lacking there isn't normally a need for international law to supply it.

Ambassador Nigel S Youlkin
The United States of Philimbesi

So why not simply ban all coercive organizations and pyramid schemes? You're absolutely right in your response: there really isn't any reason to single out religious organizations for special treatment. So simply drop all the language about religion, and instead make it clear this proposal deals with any organization that brainwashes its members, regardless of their ideological orientation.

Unless...you're not actually interested in doing that, and are instead just yammering on rather pointlessly about your own personal grudge?

-- Samantha Benson
Congressional Liaison, Office of WA Affairs
Quintessence of Dust, Delegate of Wysteria

Touchy, touchy.

The whole point of the act is to encouragement governments not to be intimidated by the religious language deployed by coercive sects. There are already laws on the books about pyramid schemes and kidnapping. There are currently no resolutions on the books encouraging governments to apply neutral principles of law to religious institutions.

Yes, I'm touchy; that cursed freedom of conscience always gets me riled up! Oh, there are laws about pyramid schemes and kidnapping? Could you point to them? Where are they? I see nothing in the list of resolutions (http://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_past_resolutions). And I agree this kind of corruption probably could be tackled by a proposal, so I'm going to ask again: why should non-religious coercive organizations be permitted, while religious ones are prohibited?

Yes, I'm touchy; that cursed freedom of conscience always gets me riled up! Oh, there are laws about pyramid schemes and kidnapping? Could you point to them? Where are they? I see nothing in the list of resolutions (http://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_past_resolutions). And I agree this kind of corruption probably could be tackled by a proposal, so I'm going to ask again: why should non-religious coercive organizations be permitted, while religious ones are prohibited?

Sensible nations have laws regarding pyramid schemes and kidnapping. Presumably most nations maintain some form of legal code that is not dependent on the recommendations of the World Assembly. Perhaps the Quintessence of Dust does not. If that is the case, are you interested in purchasing a bridge in Brooklyn?

Secondly, you ask, why should non-religious coercive organizations be permitted? They shouldn't be. Please show me anywhere in the legislation where allowance is made for non-religious sects to behave coercively. If you can do that, I will delete it and then eat my hat. If you cannot do that, please explain what you are talking about. Perhaps you have not read the legislation? :confused:

There is a specific issue being addressed by this legislation, which is the ability of coercive religious sects to hide behind the potentially obfuscating language of freedom of conscience (a right that is not abrogated by the present legislation) to excuse their crimes. Certain individuals, apparently such as yourself, can be easily duped by the language of liberty and victimhood into thinking that any atrocity committed by a coercive sect can be chalked up a sincere religious belief.

This is a tough one. Yes, I agree; there are certain coercive sects or "cults" as some refer to them by that are exploitive and may seem bad on the surface. However, I do believe in the separation of church and state, and the freedom of religion. Meaning people can practice whatever kind of faith they want, as long as its within legal bounds(i.e. don't do bizarre rituals, etc.) So, I think you might want to look it over again. Try to define what you see as being coercive or illegal, without explicitly banning any particular ideology or religion. But that's just my opinion.

Socialist New America

Sensible nations have laws regarding pyramid schemes and kidnapping. Presumably most nations maintain some form of legal code that is not dependent on the recommendations of the World Assembly. Perhaps the Quintessence of Dust does not. If that is the case, are you interested in purchasing a bridge in Brooklyn?
Well, that's a pretty crappy response, because we DO have nation laws on pyramid schemes and kidnapping. And guess what? They DON'T exclude religious organizations!

WOW!

You are assuming that: all nations currently ban non-religious coercive sects, but allow religious ones. Why are you assuming that? My nation doesn't. Given you're writing the proposal, presumably your nation doesn't. Thus far no nations have admitted they do allow it. Maybe this is a non-problem?

Here, allow me to propose an amendment:
-We call on national governments, through either public schools or through other, non-intrusive and non-sectarian means, educate young people on the dangers of such organizations and the caution individuals must take when committing large amounts of wealth to suspiciously disreputable individuals of great charisma and of the dangers of succumbing to the enticement of corporate pyramid schemes.

-We recommend that non-governmental organizations committed to such public awareness activities be at least nominally supported by all member states.

-We strongly urge health and social workers to be educated about the dangers of deferring to the judgment of coercive sects and their ideologies in the treatment, conduct, and education of children.

-We call on national governments to treat any organization that routinely defames, robs, kidnaps, or coerces individuals into certain extreme modes of behavior as they would treat any other criminal organization regardless of the nature of such organizations.

This act is respectfully submitted for the furtherance of human rights, particularly of those individuals who can be led to believe that no other options will avail them of upward socioeconomic mobility than this or that coercive sect.
That seems like a perfect fix.

Ok. This ones a toughee. Yes, you are correct, there are many coercive religious sects( or "cults" or you wanna call 'em that) that exploit their members and force them to participate in suggestive actions. However, I do support the idea of religious freedom and separation of church and state. People do have the choice to support whatever faith they choose. My advice to you would be to define what you see as coercive or illegal and state it and ways your proposal could stop it.

SNA