NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi I created a new proposal that bnads all major felons from being teachers or proffs. If you could help me out by supporting this proposal it would be greatly appreciated.

More people will read this if you post the text of your proposal here.

Here you go,
Inmates Aren't Teachers Act

A resolution to promote funding and the development of education and the arts.

Category: Education and Creativity
Area of Effect: Educational
Proposed by: Hornfordio

Description: This act will prevent all former convicted felons from entering our educational system.

Goal: Rid the learning environments of all students
of all felons (crimes later specified under Crimes Included) that have been found guilty in a court of law.
Method: Only allow teachers who have a clean record.
Reason: If criminals are allowed to teach they could teach the students not the values of the school district but the ideologies in their minds. Which could cause a long criminal uprising in the youth of today.

Crimes Included

Sexual Assault
Kidnapping
Homicide
Major Robberies

Also if someone is considered a threat to humanity by the nation, they too will be included in this act.

The UN hereby,

Voids all diplomas of present teachers who have been found guilty in the past of one of the crimes listed above.
Cancels the learning of all students who are working on their diplomas in college or university.
Makes a mandatory investigation to all incoming teachers on the criminal history of that person.
If passed the investigation, the teacher will have a contract for 5 years, where at that time the UN will make another investigation on the same person.
This Investigation will be made every 8 years afterwards.
Any smaller crimes will affect the salary of the individual, which means that if a teacher has a clean record they will receive an raise.
Any small offenses will be considered for the salary change.

So I can still have War Criminals teaching Ethics, Fraudsters teaching Business etc. And anyhow, I'm not entirely convinced this comes under Education.

Kari Kagrosi
UN Pirate

We feel a more effective system of dealing with criminals who do such crimes as noted would solve this better than any resolution. As one needs no piece of paper to influence others to their evil ways.

Sexual AssaultFirst time found guilty they get prison for life and work to pay the individual they assaulted for the barbaric act they performed against them -- Should they be found guilty a second time then we hang them.
KidnappingThe family of the person taken when they find the person who takes a member of their family simply finds a tree and uses a good rope to hang them... end of problem...
HomicideWe have many good tall trees and one of our national trade products is ropes that are suitable for more than jumping..
Major RobberiesIf you steal once then you are put in prison until such time as you have paid for the item pluss additional cost of trying you and keeping you while you are in prison paying for the item. Steal again and we find another tree and use another rope and hang you.

Convicted criminals once in prison have no free time to be with others they have time to eat, sleep, and work off their debt to society for their crimes. Those sentenced to be hung are hung within two days of the sentence none of this repeal or waste of funds to find a tree and rope we already have plenty of them ready for such events.

How does the delegation from Hornfordio justify imposing a punishment citizens who have already paid their debt to society as determined by the courts? One of life's fundamental truths is that people can change, and there are no doubt stories from around the world of criminals-come-role-models who have recognized their mistakes and changed for the better.

Also, why does the delegation from Hornfordio assume that a teacher is incapable of separating their personal lives from their professional lives? Why does receiving an unrelated criminal charge automatically devalue their skills as a teacher? I find it hard to believe that, say, a public intoxication charge from someone's college years, has so substantial an impact on a person that it should follow them for the rest of their lives, sandbagging their salary.

This is a grave violation of a person's right to a clean slate, and a backhanded, cynical slap to the idea of personal improvement and rehabilitation.

School systems already should be doing background checks, and all crimes you mentioned with the possible exception of major robbery will mean that the applicant will be turned away.

Also, you DO know that if someone gets into the system of a school, they have to teach what they are told, right? If they don't follow policy, then they are fired. So, the part where you say this will prevent criminals from teaching the "ideologies in their minds" means nothing.

All in all, this resolution does nothing except create a massive organization that will have to oversee every teacher in every UN nation.

How does the delegation from Hornfordio justify imposing a punishment citizens who have already paid their debt to society as determined by the courts? One of life's fundamental truths is that people can change, and there are no doubt stories from around the world of criminals-come-role-models who have recognized their mistakes and changed for the better. We know not what the Hornfordio delegate may say to this but feel that the belief you express is not proven one way or other. As for every criminal that became a good citizen there have been two more that ended up swinging from ropes and tall trees in this nation because they didn't change their ways.

Also, why does the delegation from Hornfordio assume that a teacher is incapable of separating their personal lives from their professional lives? Why does receiving an unrelated criminal charge automatically devalue their skills as a teacher? I find it hard to believe that, say, a public intoxication charge from someone's college years, has so substantial an impact on a person that it should follow them for the rest of their lives, sandbagging their salary.Actions prove this and criminals follow a set pattern of life and remain in it many times more than they get out of it. This pattern often is their personal life as crime to them is just another day at the office.

This is a grave violation of a person's right to a clean slate, and a backhanded, cynical slap to the idea of personal improvement and rehabilitation.So we are to forget that an individual raped you and killed members of your family; then brutilize your friends; simply because they spend a short time in a prison being rehabed. Thus we can set them up with a home and job next door to you. Also let you pay for their supervision to insure they don't regress back to old bad criminal habits and rape and kill again. Or are we to just turn them loose and not watch them once they show signs of being rabid but seem to get better and not be rabid. After all they only made one mistake, rape you, kill your family, and brutialize your friends.

How many rapes and murders does a person get before they hang for their crimes? Do we wait until they do it to you or your family then you see the light and are rehabed on the idea of executing them first time not giving second chances. Sorry can't hear you in your grave!

And before you cry about criminals convicted on false evidence and hung only later to be found not guilty of that crime. Far more in many legal systems never get hung because somebody like you cries foul until it your own then you cry the system failed. If the legal system is allowed to work it will work if it is hindered by the Social Intelectiual Crazy Kooks then it will fail.

We fully agree with the intent of the resolution but feel it up to each nation to first police their own before they come to the UN to do it for them. Because in the end it will be individual nations that do the policing for the UN since it can't police it's own without a force to do so. Thus until every nation comes in line and deals with crime the crimes will continue and criminals will find safe places among those who are weak on crime but loud on social justice and rights. Well all citizens have equal rights that protect them from crimes and they also know if they break the laws and commit a crime they will pay the price not be pampered for it.

We have also reviewed this part of this and find it not suitable as it means we shut down our education system and start over again. Main question is who will pay for all this:

Voids all diplomas of present teachers who have been found guilty in the past of one of the crimes listed above.Since the term major robbery is not defined nor is any of the others this could be a problem. As the laws of each nations may differ on each crime and thus sexual assault may result in charges if you look at a naked photo of somebody other than your spouse or child.. Thus you serve time... for sexual assault crimes in one nation thus an investigation will show that and you can't teach period in UN nations.

Cancels the learning of all students who are working on their diplomas in college or university.So a student is in his final year and now has nothing to show for it?! They owe for so many years time and now have nothing and will have to start over...

Makes a mandatory investigation to all incoming teachers on the criminal history of that person.A person in my nation may be clean and done no crimes but in another nation may have a criminal record yet we are not able to get to it... all we know is they spent so many years in Timbuctwo then came here and are model members of our society even after meeting the requirements for citizenship becoming a citizen.. So even if one does an investigation what is to say the truth is learned about an individual.

If passed the investigation, the teacher will have a contract for 5 years, where at that time the UN will make another investigation on the same person.Why five years here and then they are not investigated again for 8 years as noted below:

This Investigation will be made every 8 years afterwards.They at least need to be reinvestigated before a new contract is given them or better yet every year.. As a person works five years with a clean record is promoted to a higher position of greater trust then their true self comes out in year six and you don't know it until eight years later when you find out they are criminals.

Any smaller crimes will affect the salary of the individual, which means that if a teacher has a clean record they will receive an raise.

Why are we talking raise here when they are ciminals they need to be terminated? Also since only the court systems of nations can impose punishment for crimes then a school admistration can't add fines or punishment to them for those crimes the court did.

Any small offenses will be considered for the salary change.I think you just said this in the above section so need not say it again here.

The idea of voiding the certification of teachers and canceling education already given means we will have to start over and thus cost us to do this; or is the UN now going to call on the ghnomes to print UN currency we can use to fund this that is good anywhere to pay for what will be needed to do all this again...? Also who will pay those teachers that have invested in their own lives to become teachers and students who have invested in their own lives to get a higher education; for the time and funds they will have lost since it all is either canceled or voided.

Is this really compatible with the Fair Sentencing Act?

Personally I see this as a purely national issue.

Crime, punishment and child protection of this nature are matters for a nations courts and school boards.

If it helps any, IRL in New York (USA) all provisional teachers are, in fact, fingerprinted and there is a background check done to be sure that there are no felonies on their record.

http://www.highered.nysed.gov/tcert/part87.html#87.1

If it helps any, IRL in New York (USA) all provisional teachers are, in fact, fingerprinted and there is a background check done to be sure that there are no felonies on their record.

http://www.highered.nysed.gov/tcert/part87.html#87.1And how many times, in RL, have we seen teachers from NY on trial for crimes against children? I was rethinking this and looking at something that in RL may help one see this as it might be.


All have read news accounts of kills on university campuses lately and how at some point in their past they showed some signs of possible insanity. Figure until one is 18 they can do anything and go to juvey court and get a slap on wrist. Then once they 18 these records are locked away never to be seen again, they start life fresh.. So a cat butcher, pyro manic, decides to get saved and goes to school at 18 learns to be a teacher has a clean adult record... so after two or four years they become certified teachers and have a clean adult record. Then they revert back to their childhood days and ways and only get caught when they find the bodies in the celler or closet. Also what about church officials who have contact with chidren and are suppose to be teachers for them. Are they included here or is the separation of church and state applied here and we let the church police it's own and the state their own?

This seems to be rather baseless fearmongeriring. Students have been the ones snapping, not teachers, and the majority of teachers who have been accused of sexual misconduct with children do not have criminal histories that would have led to their disbarment as per this resolution. If we really cared about safety in schools as seems to be your point Cavirra, then we should be banning students who have histories from attending places of high education, not teachers.

Personally, I wish a few more people with criminal backgrounds would go into teaching: someone who's experienced reform first hand could prove a really positive moral influence on young people. However, I wouldn't consider the topic, whatever one's opinion, particularly suitable for international law.

-- Samantha Benson
Congressional Liaison, Department of UN Affairs
Quintessence of Dust, Delegate of Wysteria

The proposal, while written with good intention, is certainly not a view shared by the Kingdom of Pasier Rise. Crime is an internal issue of individual nation. For the UN to pass a resolution on such issues would surely disturb the sovereignty of each UN members. As such, it would be unwise to propose a resolution thats affect a nation's sovereignty

Also, the Kingdom of Pasier Rise believe that criminals should be given a second chance. We believe that society has a role to play in reforming the lives of those who step beyond social norms. As such, we agree with Quintessence of Dust, Delegate of Wysteria, that perhaps teacher with criminal backgrounds may have a positive moral role to play in the lives of their students. Therefore, it is on behalf of our Majesty, the King of Pasier Rise, we believe that while the proposal is written with good intention, is a flawed view at best.

Yours Sincerely,
On Behalf of His Majesty Lord Asriel, King of Pasier Rise,
General James Solomon, Delegate of Pasier Rise

Is this really compatible with the Fair Sentencing Act?

I was about to ask the same question. Technically, if part of the sentence is that a person cannot be an educator, then it violates the FSA, which, while it's an unnecessary piece of legislature, it's on the books nonetheless and is the law of the land...err, cyber-realm.

Not sure if the mods see it this way, because it all depends on how one looks at the issue.

Personally, I wish a few more people with criminal backgrounds would go into teaching: someone who's experienced reform first hand could prove a really positive moral influence on young people. However, I wouldn't consider the topic, whatever one's opinion, particularly suitable for international law.

-- Samantha Benson
Congressional Liaison, Department of UN Affairs
Quintessence of Dust, Delegate of Wysteria

We are in complete agreement with Liaison Benson. We should also note that some of the most renowned professors in Jey, especially those dealing with areas related to Urban Studies, have had prior criminal records which include major thefts, having been influential members of street gangs in their youth. We would oppose this legislation, not only because we feel that it is inherently a national issue, but also because we would like to retain these highly qualified professors.

Vance Aceon
Deputy Presiding Jevian United Nations Ambassador

I'm a little rusty at this, so I'm likely to repeat a thing or two that have already been said by our esteemed colleagues, but bear with me while I a bunny or two meet an axeman.

Inmates Aren't Teachers Act

The title is misleading from your intended purpose. Inmates are individuals who are still imprisoned. The term you are looking for is Convicts.

A resolution to promote funding and the development of education and the arts.

Category: Education and Creativity
Area of Effect: Educational
Proposed by: Hornfordio

Just to nitpick, this would not promote funding of education, and any development would be coincidental. It strikes me that the desired goal would be to reduce threats to security and safety, which makes it a better fit for IntSec, though this does nothing for Police or Military Forces, so that doesn't work either.

Description: This act will prevent all former convicted felons from entering our educational system.

Be specific. This line would prevent any ex-con from attempting to better themselves through continued education as a student. This would have the effect of ensuring that such criminals who may have reformed their ways would never be able to achieve their fullest potential and would be more inclined to return to their felonious ways in an attempt to better their situation.

Goal: Rid the learning environments of all students
of all felons (crimes later specified under Crimes Included) that have been found guilty in a court of law.

The wording here is ridiculously cumbersome. Your goal is to remove all ex-cons from teaching positions. Removing the students will only guarantee that there are more people within your nation that will feel compelled to resort to criminal acts to advance their position since they would be denied a proper education, even though their only "crime" would be having a teacher who once did a bad thing.

Method: Only allow teachers who have a clean record.

I once heard a story about a famed teacher in the mythical land of Real Life who went by the name Socrates. He was renowned as one of the foremost thinkers and teachers of his time, despite the fact that he had the occassional brush with the law throughout his life. I might be a bit skewed on some of the details, but I believe he was eventually exiled for his crimes, and he was still sought out as a mentor by individuals who went on to become renowned philosophers in their own right.

Reason: If criminals are allowed to teach they could teach the students not the values of the school district but the ideologies in their minds. [quote]

The same could be said for religious figures, lawyers, doctors, politicians, and, realistically speaking, any other thinking individual placed in a position to tutor others on any subject.

[quote]Which could cause a long criminal uprising in the youth of today

I believe that I will be echoing the sentiments of more than one of our associates here when I mention that the teaching criminal in question has already been released from prison and, one assumes, has paid their debt to society. If one were to believe that such an individual were likely to foment such an uprising, then I would have a suggestion and a question: Monitor them and their activities. and Why did you let them out amongst society if you do not believe them to be rehabilitated?

Crimes Included

Sexual Assault
Kidnapping

I can somewhat understand these two, as younger people might make more likely targets for that sort of predator. That said, there exist situations which might render such concerns about particular ex-cons irrelevant, if not downright laughable.

Homicide
Major Robberies

So the individual who knocks over a newsstand in his formative years, or accidentally kills someone in a horrific and regrettable DUI should never be allowed to teach geography to high school students? Sorry, I don't buy that as reasonable.

Also if someone is considered a threat to humanity by the nation,

They should perhaps be locked up away from the humanity that the nation fears they threaten.

they too will be included in this act.

I have to return to the question of why they are even out and about if they viewed as such a threat.

The UN hereby,

Voids all diplomas of present teachers who have been found guilty in the past of one of the crimes listed above.

No. They spent the time, effort, and whatever other resources may have been required to earn their certification in whatever it is. Unless their crime somehow directly contradicts what their diploma was for, there is no justification for voiding it.

Cancels the learning of all students who are working on their diplomas in college or university.

Again, be specific. This reads that every student in every post secondary institution will have to start from zero, regardless of whether of not there was any criminal of any sort anywhere in their vicinity.

What I believe you meant was that any learning of any student who has been convicted of one of the felonies listed abouve will be cancelled, and I still disagree with that for the same reason I wouldn't void their diplomas.

Makes a mandatory investigation to all incoming teachers on the criminal history of that person.

This is about the only valid line listed in the entire proposal, though I can't agree with mandating it across the board.

If passed the investigation, the teacher will have a contract for 5 years, where at that time the UN will make another investigation on the same person.

Now the UN is getting directly involved in the investigation of hundreds of thousands of teachers? Somehow I hope that we have better things to do with our time...

This Investigation will be made every 8 years afterwards.

Firstly, that still leaves us investigating thousands upon thousands of teachers every year, and that would be just within a handful of regions, without even beginning to look at the whole universe.

Secondly, would it not just be easier to set it to the schools to deal with at the time of the offence.

Any smaller crimes will affect the salary of the individual, which means that if a teacher has a clean record they will receive an raise.

Kudos for offering incentives for good behaviour, but then we get into the questions of what qualifies as smaller crimes. For example, in the included crimes Major Robberries are mentioned. What, exactly, is a major robbery?

Any small offenses will be considered for the salary change.

Jaywalking? Littering? Are these worth killing someone's raise for?

To somewhat sum up: Wrong Category. Choose a more appropriate one and write to the category. Any number of issues that need to be cleaned up within the language and operative clauses. There are still the issues mentioned by others that there could be some conflict with extant resolutions. And let's not forget that this whole thing would involve a massive multinational political lawmaking organization dipping their noses all the way down to to stick them directly into the business of every single current and prospective educator and student in every single tiny little town of every single member nation of the UN.

Seriously, we have better things to do with our time than persecute reformed criminals for past mistakes, and any nation that might actually be silly enough to employ a child molesting homicidal sociopath to educate its youth just might be in need of a bit of an uprising of some sort.

Just to nitpick, this would not promote funding of education, and any development would be coincidental. It strikes me that the desired goal would be to reduce threats to security and safety, which makes it a better fit for IntSec, though this does nothing for Police or Military Forces, so that doesn't work either.
I'd say that 'Moral Decency' would be a better fit... if a proposal along these lines would actually be legal.

I was about to ask the same question. Technically, if part of the sentence is that a person cannot be an educator, then it violates the FSA, which, while it's an unnecessary piece of legislature, it's on the books nonetheless and is the law of the land...err, cyber-realm.

Not sure if the mods see it this way, because it all depends on how one looks at the issue.

It does not merely violate the FSA, it also violates the UN ban on Ex Post Facto laws; since it changes the consequences/penalities of crimes after-the-fact.... Which is one aspect of ex-post-facto specifically banned by that resolution... Which is exactly what the proposal does, in imposing an ex post facto penalty on persons convicted of crimes, in negating their diplomas/certification and denying them their education on top of the penalty already imposed by the courts...

I'll say this once, and once and for all.... This proposal is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!

It does not merely violate the FSA, it also violates the UN ban on Ex Post Facto laws;

Oh well, you beat me to that point... It occurred to me after I'd logged-off yesterday evening...

The Grand Holy Empire of Imota has long supported the Free Sentencing Act and has long opposed the imposition of ex post facto laws. We aso feel that teacher qualification and similar education related policies should be left to the discretion of each individual national government. We therefore refuse to support this measure.

Burgen Alsonis, Ambassador to the United Nations for the Grand Holy Empire of Imota

If the legal system is allowed to work it will work if it is hindered by the Social Intelectiual Crazy Kooks then it will fail.

Oh, the irony of misspelling the word "intellectual"...

As for letting the legal systems work themselves out, perhaps the punishment set by the legal system should end when at the time when it is supposed to end, as opposed to having people branded for life and denied the full rights of citizenship for life after they're done paying their penalty and doing their time?

The Narnian Kingdom of Fotar has decided not to support this legislation. We believe that each nation should be able to sentence its criminals and employ its people as they wish. Furthermore, the loopholes, unclear language and other cons of this legislation are simply too great for this to become law.

_________________
King Fotar
~Ruler of the Narnian Kingdom of Fotar
~Vice-Chancellor of the Council of Narnia (http://www.nationstates.net/42404/page=display_region)

We oppose this kind of issue being made a target för NSUN-legislation. Many good reasons for this has already been stated, and we shall therefore not take up valuable time by simply repating what others have already said.

Jenny Kahn
Resident Bureaucrat
Timur Lenk UN-office (TLUNO)

This delegation is compelte agreement with our Jayveian collauge(s), some of the best teachers, and preventive forces are thoes who have been in brushes with the law. We further belive that community service such as teaching is a good way to rid criminals of their previous life. As such we cannot support this legislation.