NationStates Jolt Archive

Ladies and Gentlemen,

On behalf of my nation and of other developing countries around the globe, I call for swift action to end the unfair economic barriers imposed by UN Resolution 216. Our nation has filed a proposal with the UN over this matter and we need your support.

Our nation is currently attempting to develop a tourist trade of sorts in an attempt to develop a stronger economy without breaking our core values as a nation. Unfortunately prime land for development is occupied by a blight known as Kitty Kat Temple, a relic of an ancient civilization which disappeared in a suicide pact centuries ago.

The temple is in ruin and even if it wasn't it's pretty useless. Our universities have already excavated all the salvagable artifacts and Java Black University has a large department of scholars dedicated to Javanese Ancient History... and they are in consensus that the monument itself can teach us nothing further.
But the land it's on is prime real estate located near our University District/Mini-Mall. This land is the only spot on which development makes sense but would not cause us to deforest and endanger the habitat of our beloved feral kitty cats and endangered Greater Javanese Fighting Fieldmice. Rain forests like those in our nation are also part of the world's defense against global warming.

Kitty Kat Temple has not yet been declared a protected historical site by the UN, but we have been receiving threatening phone calls from some anonymous national leaders claiming that it needs to be preserved and threatening to take it to the UN. We worry that the UN may get involved as we move closer to initiating our development plan.

And it's not just about The Democratic Republic of Java Black's Madness... Other developing nations may face the same constraints on their national sovereignty, constraints that sacrifice the ability to build for economic growth or the welfare of people... in favor of sentimentalism.

I implore the member nations of the UN to repeal this resolution, if only to replace it with a similar one that does not unfairly limit the choices of developing nations. The rights of the nations that harbor the land must be considered.

Thank you.

-Nicole H. Jirmafobe
Underphilosopher of the Department of Conservation and Sustainable Development
The Democratic Republic of Java Black's Madness

I believe this has already been repealed... By the way, this would be a National Sovereignty argument, which would make your proposal illegal.
Moreover, it would seem to us that exactly ancient temples may produce revenue for cultural tourism. There are always other options; i have seen buildings preserved, where the new building was built over it. Now, I am in no way a building engineer or architect, but some such solution would be applicable. Moreover, even in the text of the repealed resolution, there is the option of applying to the commission to have it taken from the list; if it isn't on there, what is stopping you?

But as we observe, the resolution has already been repealed.

The Resolution appears to still be in full force I'm afraid.
And the argument is about more than just national sovereignty. It's about the opportunity cost of developing nations being forced to keep monuments going. The UN also has interest in the uplifting of the world's poor and the sustainability of the environment.
There are cases where the protection of historical sites can conflict with these important issues of human rights and overall global security.
I ask once again of the UN, is an intangible and sentimental value more important or tangible human rights issues, such as people starving, economies faltering, or the world's forests being destroyed.
A historical monument is just a pile of stones with ties to the history. It does not feed people and it is not even history itself. Our proposal outlines this.

I believe this has already been repealed... By the way, this would be a National Sovereignty argument, which would make your proposal illegal.
Moreover, it would seem to us that exactly ancient temples may produce revenue for cultural tourism. There are always other options; i have seen buildings preserved, where the new building was built over it. Now, I am in no way a building engineer or architect, but some such solution would be applicable. Moreover, even in the text of the repealed resolution, there is the option of applying to the commission to have it taken from the list; if it isn't on there, what is stopping you?

But as we observe, the resolution has already been repealed.

No it hasn't:

213 Repealed Resolution 15,
216 was passed very soon after 213.
216 is still active.

Also 216 states you can't build anything new over it, and creates the committee you were mentioning in the repeal.

You are correct in saying that if the ruins aren't on the list you can do whatever you want with them.


All that being said I would support a repeal of the 216.

Nigel S Youlkin
USoP UN Ambassador

Hmmm... If so that changes everything.
Our Assistant Philosopher in Charge of Reading International Documents has been diagnosed with schitzophrenia... so it's possible he misunderstood it. He was under the impression that repealed resolutions were those that had lines through them. This is likely to hurt him in next Wednesday's election.
[pause]

Oh wait... I talk so much sometimes that I miss other people's talk. Sorry.
It isn't repealed?!

Granted our nation is not in a bad position as we are likely to demolish Kitty Kat Temple before the UN can act to add it to the list... but what of other nations more desperate than we?
Not all so-called "historical sites" appeal to tourists.

I thank you Mr. Young for your support.

My apologies, I had missed that one. I stand corrected.

§5 ENACTS that every item of the 'List of UN-protected Historical Sites' (see §2) must not be destroyed or changed in substance, except for restoration or faithful reproduction above remains, if they maintain the originality and meaning of the item. Primarily the reason for being on the list (see §2) must be conserved.


Of course, it cannot be substantially changed, but in this clause, there is no definition of what is the substance; it would seem reasonable to assume that if there is no change to the structure, and if it stands on its own, that there is no substantial change to the structure, while still allowing for construction above the site, providing that it leaves it open. This may be bending the rules a bit, but still legal. The definition of above is crucial, of course, as there is a difference in building over the remains, as this clause seems to intend, and above it. Moreover, this strangely prohibits nations from building protective structures, that should help preserve the site.
Moreover, I would not like to repeal this resolution, except in order to add to it.

My apologies, I had missed that one. I stand corrected.

Moreover, I would not like to repeal this resolution, except in order to add to it.

No problem, three resolutions all with pretty much the same title will confuse you from time to time.

I would like to repeal it to add to it and subtract from it. The process of removing a site is too confusing, and I think the absence of battlefields, cemeteries and other items makes it not expansive enough.

~NSY

I completely agree.

Ambassadors, Hark! Your sovereignty is at stake!

Egads, look at this: *flips on the over head projector to display the following*

UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION #216

Protection of Historical Sites
A resolution to promote funding and the development of education and the arts.

Category: Education and Creativity
Area of Effect: Cultural Heritage
Proposed by: Lapis heaven

Description: The United Nations,

AWARE of the importance of historical sites for the international community and future generations;

NOTING that history isn't only a national subject, but of international concern;

BELIEVING that keeping history alive therefore is without doubt worth being handled by the United Nations;

DECIDES to protect historical sites of importance

Therefore:

§1 DEFINES a 'historical site' as

a. building (including fountains, aqueducts and structures to similar purpose)
b. remains
c. excavation
d. grave/tomb or
e. cult site

with historical means to a specific nation or folk as well as to the international community.

§2 ESTABLISHES the 'List of UN-protected Historical Sites' containing all historical sites, that are of supraregional importance, because they are/were

a. a masterpiece of human creation
b. a major watershed in architecture, technology, urban development or landscaping
c. a unique or at least rare evidence of a contemporary or lost civilization
d. an outstanding example of an architectural, technical or scenic type, that emblematize one or more important episode(s) in history of humanity
e. an outstanding example of traditional human housing schemes or land/sea utilization, which is typical for one or more cultures or
f. connected directly or at least distinguishable with events, traditional ways of life, ideas, credos, artistic or literary acts of exceptional universal meaning.

§3 ESTABLISHES the 'United Nations Committee for Protection of Historical Sites' (UNCPH) as board of twelve independent members, elected by UN.

§4 MANDATES the UNCPH to keep the 'List of UN-protected Historical Sites' (see §2) updated ex officio and publish it in print and online via database. Each member state per application as well as 10% of the population of a member state per petition can request a change (admission or deletion) of the list. The UN hereby forbids any other change of the list.

§5 ENACTS that every item of the 'List of UN-protected Historical Sites' (see §2) must not be destroyed or changed in substance, except for restoration or faithful reproduction above remains, if they maintain the originality and meaning of the item. Primarily the reason for being on the list (see §2) must be conserved.

§6 ALLOWS member nations to diverge from §5 in times of war, if a opposing belligerent has taken position within or near an item on the 'List of UN-protected Historical Sites' (see §2) and maintaining the item would be of strategic disadvantage, as long as they minimize damage to the item as far as possible. Any damage will be reviewed by UNCPH after the conflict has ended and possible sanctions will be determined.

§7 RECOMMENDS member nations to maintain other national historical sites as well in order to keep the memory of regional and supraregional history alive.

Authored by Damned PoPer

Votes For: 6,845
Votes Against: 2,949

Implemented: Mon Jul 9 2007

Why, why, why would any nation state allow a collection of other nation states define for their citizens what is and is not culturally worthy of preservation? Do you fine legates and emissaries go to your homes after a hard days work and walk over to your neighbor’s house and dictate how he should mow his grass or trim his hedges? No? Why not? Since you are all so well adept at doing the exact same thing here I would think it most common place for you to tell your fellow neighbors how to run their own personal affairs. If it is considered un-neighborly to butt your nose in on your next door neighbor, how much more so your fellow neighboring nation states?

Repeal this thing.

Thank you, I surrender the floor.

The argument of the ambassador of Elmwood Court, as that of Ambassador Jirmafobe before them, is purest National Sovereignty undiluted by any actual debating points. This has long been deemed insufficient grounds for repealing any resolution of any nature, since it amounts to little more than the temper tantrum of a spoiled child denied their favorite plaything. Should any actual reasons for repeal be forthcoming, we will of course consider them; until then we must observe that some thousands of nation states did consider it appropriate to pass Protection of Historical Sites despite the amazement expressed here.

On a separate note, perhaps it is time to consider a separate resolution on the preservation of historic battlefields.

There are times when national sovereignty is equivalent to the defense of human rights.
To straight-jacket nations over something so trivial as preserving architecture that some people might think is pretty or appealing to some patriotic sentiment... to the extent that it might conflict with the economic stability of a nation or the free will of its people...
Granted there is a process for removal- which my colleague missed- but time is often of the essence. And if it can be removed by the will of a nation's own people, why not just allow them to use their own government to repeal it as that would be quicker.

Granted our particular site has been halfway demolished over the course of this morning and will likely not be an issue by the time these crank callers can get the UN to make good on their threats... but what of other nations that might be even more constrained?

And besides all that, how can the UN expect a nation to bear the costs of maintaining something that in and of itself has no intrinsic value to human rights or the prosperity of nations? Part of our proposal questions the very accuracy of the claim that protecting historical sites is of international importance.
History yes. Physical historical remains... Absurd.

We would welcome a new resolution if it allowed for compensation. As the UN does not collect taxes, I can't imagine where it would get the funds. But I am all for a resolution that changes the listing issue, makes it more transparent, and makes the maintenance the responsibility of the nation or nations who thinkthe sites are so darn important... and perhaps requires them to compensate any nation housing the monument that pays the opportunity cost- a rent of sorts.
That's it! Allow concerned nations or the UN to buy historic sites and either relocate them or pay rent!

But to do that we must first get rid of the current resolution.

'Kitty Kat Temple', eh? That sounds like something that might be of considerable interest to the scattered survivors of The Eternal Kawaii (http://www.nationstates.net/the_eternal_kawaii)...

We believe it is a matter of national sovereignty as well however our reasons are as such.

I think I've read clause 4 about 10 times and I still don't know how a nation gets something removed or added to the list. It's confusing. Not to mention in our opinion a borderline gameplay violation.

Also, 6 opens a nation up for possible sanctions if in the course of protecting themselves they have to destroy one of their historical sites. This asks for enemies to occupy the sites knowing that international law to an extent will protect them.

I was wrong in my earlier argument about cemeteries however one can say that since it defines a historical site as a grave (in the singular) it can be construed that the rest of the site is therefore not on the site. We in the USoP have several hundred battlegrounds, parks, battleships and the like that are extremely significant to us in a historical sense but don't fall under these guidelines. While we can and would be willing to draft a resolution protecting them wouldn't it be easier if one law covered them all.

I yield back the balance of my time .

Nigel S Youlkin
USoP UN Ambassador

Why, why, why would any nation state allow a collection of other nation states define for their citizens what is and is not culturally worthy of preservation? Do you fine legates and emissaries go to your homes after a hard days work and walk over to your neighbor’s house and dictate how he should mow his grass or trim his hedges?

Yes we do. We need to, after all, in order to ensure that society is well.

The reason we might be against it is because the UN may decide to somehow promote ideologies, some of which may be, ahem, offensive to others.

We'll point to a real-life example. Some time ago, a couple of capitalists created some 'cult' center known as a "Stock Market", where they would buy and sell stocks. Some of them dressed up as 'stock brokers' and went around screaming the slogan of 'Buy low, sell high!'

Now, the capitalists has, um, been 'evicted', and so we wanted to destroy the Stock Market. But then, one capitalist made a call to the Commitee, and BAM, the Stock Market is now declared an historical site because it is "connected directly or at least distinguishable with events, traditional ways of life, ideas, credos, artistic or literary acts of exceptional universal meaning." Which is, of course, Capitalism.

Yeah, like we think a tiny building made by some insiginificant fat cats is supposed to be a 'historical site'. We had to spend $13 USD to pay for guards to protect the entire building. And when the Stock Market 'mysteriously' collasped, we had a stern and rather annoying talking-to, especially when we tried to explain to the Commitee that nobody actually liked the building.

On the other hand, let suppose this example: an evil Capitalistic dictatorship overthrew the peaceful Socialist democracy. The first thing the dictatorship want to do was to turn the Socialist Senate into a Capitalist Senate. But, my god, that would be destorying a "an outstanding example of an architectural, technical or scenic type, that emblematize one or more important episode(s) in history of humanity", that is, the days when the Socialists ran the country. Suppose we go to the Commitee, we screamed, we vented, but the 'United Nations Committee for Protection of Historical Sites' said, "Nah. The things not historical. It looks ugly." And there we go. Socialist Senate blown up.

Surely, if the Commitee were more Socialist leaning, then they would have allowed us to destroy that stupid Stock Market (and in the example protected the mighty Socialist Senate). But that's the point.

History is now being used as properganda. Certain 'great' buildings are declared great because the Commitee, swayed by one ideology or another, says so. I would LOVE to protect historical sites, but letting the Commitee go and decide means that the Commitee can choose to self-censor history itself, only protecting sites that THEY like, not the sites that really are historical. Letting the Commitee control history itself is something that frightens me. I would rather that nations go and tell the UN: "Here's a list of historical sites. Make sure no other nation go and bomb them, kay?"

That being said, I'm not supporting a repeal of this resolution. There are more important things to worry about.
---Dr. Bob

(OOC: Yes, yes, I know. The gnomes are perfect beings. So, OOCly, I'm against the resolution repeal totally. But, still...)

The argument of the ambassador of Elmwood Court, as that of Ambassador Jirmafobe before them, is purest National Sovereignty undiluted by any actual debating points. This has long been deemed insufficient grounds for repealing any resolution of any nature, since it amounts to little more than the temper tantrum of a spoiled child denied their favorite plaything. Should any actual reasons for repeal be forthcoming, we will of course consider them; until then we must observe that some thousands of nation states did consider it appropriate to pass Protection of Historical Sites despite the amazement expressed here.

On a separate note, perhaps it is time to consider a separate resolution on the preservation of historic battlefields.This is classic! Thank you for pin pointing THE issue! A spoiled child (a sovereign nation state) is being denied his plaything (any item within the boundaries of his own nation). And by whom is it being denied? Other nations. So other nations hold more power than your own nation in determining what is and is not a cultural point of value. This IS the point of why this resolution should be repealed.

If this were a resolution within the boundaries of any particular nation state, that would be the business of that particular state. But this a resolution that is binding on all UN member states.

Let's look at the logical conclusions from this:

Therefore: §1 DEFINES a 'historical site' as a. building with historical means to a specific nation or folk as well as to the international community.

A group of people self classifies themselves as A Folk, builds some dilapidated pile of crap and calls it a building, appeals to a known enemy of the host nation state thus making it an historic site with means to the international community and if the host nation moves to evict the people and tear down the eye sore it's a UN violation. Extreme? Of course. Possible? you betcha, bubba.

*Turns to Nicole H. Jirmafobe* Madame, Underphilosopher. It is noted in Section 6 and I quote:ALLOWS member nations to diverge from §5 in times of war, if a opposing belligerent has taken position within or near an item on the 'List of UN-protected Historical Sites' (see §2) and maintaining the item would be of strategic disadvantage, as long as they minimize damage to the item as far as possible. Any damage will be reviewed by UNCPH after the conflict has ended and possible sanctions will be determined.If you are in need of a legal loop hole please contact our offices and we will put you in touch with our International Military Attaché. He has already denoted to me that we can declare war on your nation at a time suitable to all parties. We will destroy the temple in question and then as soon as our demands are met (we want the stone buried under the center of the temples foundation) we will call an immediate cease fire, truce, and end all hostilities. Our nation’s respected representatives will meet over tea and draw up the needed papers to ensure peace ensues. But of course we will want our rock. It's a small rock, I'm sure you'll be able to find it after that pesky temple foundation is out of the way.

Greetings. Sorry about the confusion, but my dear colleague Ms. Jirmafobe... Well her position has been removed by the Department of Government Agency Administration. She was a bit... hostile... so she has been placed under arrest by the Department.

As for our personal stake in this issue... it's beginning to fade. You see, the "temple" is being torn down as we speak to make way for our development plan. Primary Person in Charge of Decision-Making Java Black will be delivering an address about it later... I promise it will be... [I]interesting.

But I'm mostly here to say that you can disregard our comments as Ms. Jirmafobe's department is under review. We cannot accurately claim that her views on the matter can accurately reflect my pos... forgive me, my government's position. After all "Kitty Kat Temple" is only a real site in the eyes of the delusional. We expect no problems from the UN and as for other developing nations... well, that's the UN's business, isn't it?

Sorry about all the fuss. I look forward to speaking with the UN on more friendly terms later.

[leaves with a smug grin that causes many of you in the room to feel a strong need to punch him]

-Damien Grout
Grand Philosopher Majesty of the Government Agency Administration Department
The Democratic Republic of Java Black's Madness

The Kingdom of Dukeburyshire found a better way to deal with Historical rubbish. We build around it then adapt it, as we did with the Roman Temple in Dukebury, the Capitol. It's now a Shopping Center.

I hope that was prior to your acceptance here. Cause now you can't really do that...

The Kingdom of Dukeburyshire found a better way to deal with Historical rubbish. We build around it then adapt it, as we did with the Roman Temple in Dukebury, the Capitol. It's now a Shopping Center.

That was long ago, just after the Earthquake.

This is classic! Thank you for pin pointing THE issue! A spoiled child (a sovereign nation state) is being denied his plaything (any item within the boundaries of his own nation). And by whom is it being denied? Other nations. So other nations hold more power than your own nation in determining what is and is not a cultural point of value. This IS the point of why this resolution should be repealed.

If this were a resolution within the boundaries of any particular nation state, that would be the business of that particular state. But this a resolution that is binding on all UN member states.

Let's look at the logical conclusions from this:



A group of people self classifies themselves as A Folk, builds some dilapidated pile of crap and calls it a building, appeals to a known enemy of the host nation state thus making it an historic site with means to the international community and if the host nation moves to evict the people and tear down the eye sore it's a UN violation. Extreme? Of course. Possible? you betcha, bubba.

*Turns to Nicole H. Jirmafobe* Madame, Underphilosopher. It is noted in Section 6 and I quote:If you are in need of a legal loop hole please contact our offices and we will put you in touch with our International Military Attaché. He has already denoted to me that we can declare war on your nation at a time suitable to all parties. We will destroy the temple in question and then as soon as our demands are met (we want the stone buried under the center of the temples foundation) we will call an immediate cease fire, truce, and end all hostilities. Our nation’s respected representatives will meet over tea and draw up the needed papers to ensure peace ensues. But of course we will want our rock. It's a small rock, I'm sure you'll be able to find it after that pesky temple foundation is out of the way.

"The use of 'We don't like this because it infringes upon our national soverighty' is still not a proper form of debate for any sort of repeal. If you don't like it, find an actual reason to repeal it. Such as something that doesn't do as much as it should, or does too much than it should, or similar things to that. And don't use the 'we don't like this' garbage, because it won't fly here in the United Nations."

It hampers development. Why can't I turn ruins into casinos, as long as what's there is preserved in some form. Eg, build the ruins into the walls of the new structure. That way everyone's happy. I think.

OOC: I'm an archaeology major, y'all, so you just broached a subject near and sacred to my heart. The invective thrown out by the speaker in this post is not intended to be directed at Java Black himself. The sentiments and opinions are, but the cursing and invective is purely that of that character saying it. You'll figure out why.

IC:

A weather-beaten man in a professor's tweed jacket and suit had joined the Catawaban delegation today. Interim Ambassador Placeholder and Diplomatic Aide Churchill had to restrain him from following after the smarmy bureaucrat from Java's Black Madness. Placeholder wasn't really doing much but squawking at man they were restraining as Churchill was doing all the work, trying to twist the man's arm behind his back.

"Get a hold of yourself, Professor Jones!" He cried helplessly and then turned to address the Floor. "Doctor Henry Jones the Third, distinguished professor of archaeology at the University of Graceland, will offer the Catawaban rebuttal." Placeholder announced, hoping the sudden attention on Dr. Jones would stop him from vaulting the table after the author of the proposal.

Placeholder was right. The Miraade himself had asked Dr. Jones to address the UN on this issue, and Jones wasn't going to break the Miraade's trust by flying off the handle. He slowly turned his head about to look Churchill right in the eye and just glared balefully. The aide's eyes widened and he let go of the professor's arm which had never even managed to get behind Jones’s back.

Jones paused for a moment to straighten his rumpled jacket, though it had been like that before his country's diplomats had tried to restrain him. He glared about at the diplomats. What a bunch of pompous...he curbed his temper and cleared his throat. "The Alpha Miraade asked me to address this 'august' body because he thought as I do, that, obviously none one has truly considered the archeological implications." The statement was laced with biting sarcasm.

He took a deep breath and looked down at the copy of the proposal before him. He crumpled it up and threw it out into the middle of the room. "I ain't going to debate politics with you. I'm not a politician, and I pray to God that I'll never be roped in like my Miraade. I'm an archaeologist which I'm gorramed sure y'all aren't."

He glared after the Mr. Grout. "If the Java Black's 'top men' can assure us that all that can be discovered has been, I'll say his 'top men' must be piss-ant group of grad students because I sure haven't heard of'em!"

Placeholder blanched at Jones's tirade. He started lean forward to apologize, when Jones turned on him and forced him back into his seat with a malevolent stare. He turned that same intensity back on the other delegates suffering through his speech. "I say that Java Black archaeologists must be group of greenhorn grad students because the work of archaeology is never ended! It is not a sure and definite science. As new technology and methodology is developed and becomes ready for use, archaeologists must constantly re-examine what assumptions that have made thus far."

Jones reached down into his leather courier bag and brought out a thick historical tome. He threw that too into middle of the floor with a resounding boom. He let the echoes die before he pointed to the book. “That is but one collection of data on prehistoric man written before Nineteen Sixty-Six. All of that is largely found to be ethnocentric bull written by Victorian blowhards who created an archaeological fiction to support their position as world powers. It used to be asserted that hunter-gather populations were ignorant, stupid people that by their primitive subsistence strategy always edged on starvation and death. Not so, my ‘fellow delegates’, in many ways there are more dietary and sociological problems associated with agriculture than broad-spectrum hunting and gathering.”

He reached back for his bag again but Churchill grabbed it first and held on tight. Jones glared at him for a moment and then turned back to the floor. “Even the most remote of cultures has a super-regional importance in the archaeological record. A prehistoric shattered flint, a remnant of stone tool making, is invisible to all but the most trained eye. Each artifact from religious icon to that seemingly worthless piece of shatter has so much to say when taken in context of its surroundings both physically and historically.”
He shook his head. “Java Black may not think that their Kitty Kat Temple has any super-regional importance, but it does. Every historical site has something to say about the collective development of life on this planet. No place is truly isolated, no people exist in a vacuum, and even if two peoples are separated by ocean and continents we all are physiologically the same. We work with the same tool box and come up with different ideas and concepts. The loss of any one site is the loss of new way to interpret and infer about other mysteries.”

He turned and pulled his bag out of both of Churchill’s arms with just one hand. He reached to the table behind them and picked up a battered, brown fedora. He looked at it, spinning it slightly on his hand. “I think Java Black has screwed up by the numbers. That temple’s gone, but it was already archaeologically worthless. Those first year grad students were no doubt pressured by the developers that were chomping at the bit to get that land for a gorram’d parkin’ lot. Without proper insitu analysis of the excavation, those artifacts are useful in keeping some storage shelf from blowin’ away. Java Black has learned all they can from them because they have no context, nothing to provide you with any relating evidence as to what it really meant at the site, what it had to do with the other artifacts found.”

The archaeologist snorted. “My Miraade has promised me and, as near as I can figure, so has Ambassador Seigfried that Catawaba will never support a proposal such as this. “

Jones fixed his fedora a top his head and ran two fingers down the brim as he cocked it at a rakish angle. “Usually I believe artifacts belong in a museum, but in this case? Archaeology was better off when they were in the ground.” He turned and stalked out of the room, of half a mind to go after that smarmy, little troglodyte from Java Black. Church burst up from his chair and called the delegation’s security detail. He was going to need Catawaban Marines if he was going stop Dr. Jones.

Placeholder got up and nervously addressed his fellow delegates. “Umm..uh…the…uh…government of Catawaba would like to say..that…not all of Doctor Jones sentiments are necessarily those of the Catawaban government.”

“You want to bet, nancy boy? One word from me and the Miraade’ll have you shipped to meanest hellhole he can find!” Dr. Jones yelled over his shoulder as he shoved his way out the room’s doors. As the doors closed behind him, a quartet of burly Catawban Marines attempted to grab hold of him and conduct him calmly out of the building. Dr. Jones bared his teeth and took a swing at the biggest one. The doors closed and the sound of scuffling was all that was heard.

Gregory Placeholder sank down into his chair. Why was he even here?

Churchill cracked open the door to the hall and grimaced as he watched the ongoing fight. He looked back at Placeholder and mumbled under his breath, “why are you even here?”

Would I be allowed to build in the ruins of part of my city if they were new (still smouldering) ruins. They are the ruins of the newer parts of the city.

Professor Jones burst back into the room. The sleeves were torn off his tweed jacket, and his fedora was askew on his head. He wiped blood from his split lip. "My compliments to the 'honored' ambassador from Dukesburyshire, but if I'm pretty gorram'd sure if he's got a half-decent bunch of historians somewhere to record the events that got him a bunch of ruins, forensic investigators to analyze the causes and implication of the disaster, if all human remains are removed, and witnesses interviewed in some way, he doesn't need a ruttin' archaeologist! He's recorded the event and the circumstances behind it well enough for government work!"

The Marines pounced on Dr. Jones and began dragging him back out of the room. "And if these ruins are really just a bunch of cookiecutter suburbistans, they ain't worth noting in the wider view of history!" The Marines almost had him out the door when he planted his arms and legs against the door jamb.

"AND any new construction efforts should require an indepth survey of the site to ensure that any geological or archaeological site undiscovered to date is not destroyed by further building!" The Marines set up a count and heaved on the professor's limbs all at once. They all tumbled out of view as the doors closed again.

I don't need historians. The ruins were made yesterday! By me!

[A goofy looking man with a red beard stands up]

"The new temporary government of the DRJBM is sympathetic to Dr. Jones' plea. I'll rest assure you that the so-called monument taken down today was really just a pile of rocks. The artifacts collected were just especially funny-looking rocks. Of course Mr. Black and several members of his cabinet thought that it was a temple because they are insane.
The economic development plan mentioned should be enough to convince you of that. Just be happy knowing that The Government Agency Administration Department has seized control and is currently giving Mr. Black and many of his ministers the treatment they need in our luxury asylum.
The government of his Grand Majesty Damien Grout will not vote for this ridiculous repeal even if it does somehow make it to a vote.
But let's all be assured. No harm, no foul. We've removed a bunch of stones that have no importance other than to geologists but we have nipped this ludicros development plan in the bud thanks to our coup...er.. operation.. cooperation... with... the... oh, lost my train of thought.
Sincere apologies for the disagreeableness of Ms. Jirmafobe. She is currently resting though and quite comfy in her straight jacket."

-Dr. Washington Apple
Chairman of the Council of Propaganda and Professor of Propaganda Studies
Government Agency Administration Department
The Democratic Republic of Java Black's Madness

(( Java, you devious and brilliant person you, is this all a lead into your thread in the II? ))

The count as well as his new aide are staring in disbelief at mr. Placeholder. Surely he cannot be permanent. Then, after sending off Lt. Pellew to make sure Dr Jones is not too much harmed, the count takes the floor.
"Although we are not completely sure on the stance that is being taken at the moment by nation that started this repeal, we agree with Dr Jones, and would once again express that if we are to support any repeal of this resolution, it is to ameliorate it.
Furthermore, we are starting to wonder what the nation of Elmwood Courts is doing as a member of this body, seeing their strong inclination against supranational agreement, in favour of absolute national sovereignty?"

[A skinny, acne-faced kid in a LatteBucks Coffee uniform walks in. He's shaking]

Ummm... ummm... Well, maybe, I guess I can shed some light on our government's position. Well... the whole thing with the historical site was some kind of a distraction to get Java Black on a rant so that he wouldn't notice his country being taken over by fascists.
B-but we're okay now. The fascists were pushed out and now we're under the rule of a nice military dictator. B-b-b-but it's only temporary until we can get our elected leader back from the nuthouse that he's imprisoned in.
The bad guys didn't care at all about this subject, but I think, and I'm not sure, but maybe... ummmmm... Mr. Black will probably be for this repeal even though he really didn't want to get rid of the site.
I guess it's like really complicated! I'm just a cashier, man! But all our good government types are locked in an asylum and they figured it would be better to, like, send a non-threatening guy like me instead of a soldier to let you guys know what we think or what we think we think.
Man! This sucks! This is [expletive deleted]! I'm outta here!"

-Beck Brittle
Part-time Cashier
LatteBucks Corporation
DRJBM Location
See our website about our UN Ambassador/senior citizen discount!

Things fall apart, so we rebuild. Societies crumble, so we rebuild. Agregorn, in its aspiration for manifest destiny, has annexed territories that held sovereign claim by natives who also created primitive and useless structures of some significance. At least, it was significant to them before our forefathers had them relocated or assimilated into a better society.

If we work to preserve the past, we doom our future. Recently, attacks have been made on our capitol city, resulting in the destruction of billions of dollums, not to mention the deaths of tens of thousands of our people. This does not mean the city is to be abandoned, nor is the destruction to be a commemorative pile of debris to be cherished by our kin. We will tear it down, and build again, and again, and again if we have to. And we will gladly raze the buildings of those that porpotrated this atrocity.

Please understand that we are not advocating the destruction of history. There is much to be learned from history. We think it should be documented, understood, and preserved in museums. In the mean time, past progress should not stagnate future progress, and no policy should encourage this backwards thinking.

The doors again slammed open, and Mr. Churchill grunted as he was again thrown to the floor. Professor Jones, followed by the four Catawaban Marines, stopped just inside the door way. The Marine, bruised and blooded far worse than Jones, dropped into a crisp, parade rest despite their injuries. Dr. Jones no longer had a jacket. He white shirt was ripped, showing off his rugged, hairy chest. As he swayed a bit punch-drunk, he settled the fedora back straight on his head.

"Have any of you heard of the saying 'those who do not learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it?' Yeah, yeah, it's overused, I know. But it's got archaeological proof to it. Civilizations crumble because they do not learn the mistakes of their ancestors. Do you think yourselves so arrogant that you could really invent new ways to collapse and fail? I'm sure some of you are stupid enough to actually find new ways to fail, but usually cultures die for the same reasons and circumstances."

He rolled his eyes. "Pardon me, but the Agregorns are obviously still stuck in the Victorian Era which was also largely populated with ethnocentric windbags. If you 'honored delegates' want something to do, I'd investigate'em for human rights violations against these 'primitive natives' of theirs."

He turned on his heel, and the Marines opened their ranks to let him through. "If you'll excuse me, I'm going to buy these guys a drink for the trouble I've caused and the fact I haven't had a fight that good in a while. Then I obviously have to redouble my efforts as an archaeologist lest you jingoist blowhards destroy what little remains of the past."

With that, Doctor Indiana Jones the Third and the four Marines left the room. Diplomatic aide Churchill got up from the floor and staggered after the other Catawabans. Dr. Jones and Mr. Placeholder were too much for one day with out a bit of liquid reinforcement. Mr. Placeholder tried to slide beneath his table and hide.