NationStates Jolt Archive

A proposal to repeal a previously passed resolution


Category: Repeal

Resolution: #14

Proposed by: Objective Values

Description: UN Resolution #14: CHILD LABOR (Category: Human Rights; Strength: Strong) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: RECOGNIZING the good intentions of many advocates of chuld labor abolition,

NOTING that the effects of such abolition often result, in the developed world, in such consequences as starvation or the child taking up even riskier occupations such as prostitution,

ENCOURAGING nations to obey the more recent resolution "Abolition of forced labor" in continuing not to force child labor.

BELIEVING that a child who lives in a given situation is much more qualified to determine whether he would benefit overall from a given occupation than a bureaucrat thousands of miles away.

Resolution # 14 "Child Labor" is hereby repealed.

Approvals: 3 (National England, Great Atlantea, The hit men)

Status: Lacking Support (requires 101 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Fri Jan 25 2008



Something tells me I should have doublechecked for typos.. the consequence happens a lot more in the developing than the developed world :D

NOTING that the effects of such abolition often result, in the developed world, in such consequences as starvation or the child taking up even riskier occupations such as prostitution,

Working as a prostitute is hardly riskier than working 12 hours days in a coal mine.

BELIEVING that a child who lives in a given situation is much more qualified to determine whether he would benefit overall from a given occupation than a bureaucrat thousands of miles away.

If you will pardon my language- you're got to be fucking joking. You are asserting that a 10-year-old child has more intellectual pull about labour than a civil servant or elected official? Absolutely ridiculous. Perhaps you should put down your copy of Atlas Shrugged and think for a change.

Harmalan Shandreð
Ambassador Plenipotens

I rise to question if you read the entire text of Resolution 14 or just the title of it. Resolution 14 only stops children from working in industrial situations, it says nothing of children working anywhere else.

So rather than become prostitutes maybe they can work somewhere else to make ends meet.


Your assumption that a child can decide which career is best for them is absolutely ludicrous, ask a 10 year old what they want to do and you'll probably get three for four answers in three or four seconds.

Not that this will come up, but should it, we will vote against.

Nigel S Youlkin
USoP UN Ambassador.

Working as a prostitute is hardly riskier than working 12 hours days in a coal mine. Really? Ask the prostitutes before making that assertion :D.


If you will pardon my language- you're got to be fucking joking. You are asserting that a 10-year-old child has more intellectual pull about labour than a civil servant or elected official? Absolutely ridiculous. Perhaps you should put down your copy of Atlas Shrugged and think for a change. A 10 year old (and the previous resolution's limit by the way was 12), knows whether they are hungry. The civil servant thousands of miles away does not know whether a child is hungry. That child has the right to pursue the food in question when his parents fail to provide it.



I rise to question if you read the entire text of Resolution 14 or just the title of it. Resolution 14 only stops children from working in industrial situations, it says nothing of children working anywhere else.

So rather than become prostitutes maybe they can work somewhere else to make ends meet. The resolution fails to define "industrial." In the broadest sense, all work is industrial. Also in the narrow, there is such a thing as light industry. Retail jobs are rather rare in certain poor nations, and I'm not really sure what other jobs the average 12 year old is qualified for.

It is irrelevant whether certain 12 year olds demonstrate indecisiveness about careers. This is not about long term careers (although I'm sure a few people could be capable at that age of acting toward it, especially if we consider all the nations with non-homo sapien rights bearing species), this is fundamentally about survival.

GIVEN that many nation states see fit to employ children under age 12 in manual labor and industry

The mods can clarify, but I'm fairly certain there doesn't have to be a definition clause to make it not apply to retail.

NSY

I am with you all the way on this.Everyone should be treated fairly.

Really? Ask the prostitutes before making that assertion :D.

Har har har. I'm rolling in the aisles.

A 10 year old (and the previous resolution's limit by the way was 12), knows whether they are hungry. The civil servant thousands of miles away does not know whether a child is hungry. That child has the right to pursue the food in question when his parents fail to provide it.

Did I hear the word hunger in the resolution? Does "hungry" automatically equal "get a job, you lazy little brat?" No. This isn't about hunger, it's about children in exploitative circumstances. Or did you not read the resolution you want to repeal?


The resolution fails to define "industrial." In the broadest sense, all work is industrial. Also in the narrow, there is such a thing as light industry. Retail jobs are rather rare in certain poor nations, and I'm not really sure what other jobs the average 12 year old is qualified for.

I'm sure you can find a better word to wank with than industrial. Underdeveloped nations are usually largely agricultural, so I see no reason why a son or daughter couldn't find work on the family farm instead of sewing thousands of shirts for rich Objective Valuans.

It is irrelevant whether certain 12 year olds demonstrate indecisiveness about careers. This is not about long term careers (although I'm sure a few people could be capable at that age of acting toward it, especially if we consider all the nations with non-homo sapien rights bearing species), this is fundamentally about survival.

More poppycock. If little Ankit only works in a coal mine for 5 years of his life before moving on to something better, that's still five years too many for a 6-year-old to be working in a coal mine.

The resolution is not about economy. It is not about profit. It is about protecting young children from the health effects of certain jobs, and preserving the little bit of innocence they have to enjoy before being able to package caustic chemicals at the age of 13.

Harmalan Shandreð
Ambassador Plenipotens

NOTING that the effects of such abolition often result, in the developed world, in such consequences as starvation or the child taking up even riskier occupations such as prostitution,

Ignoring the "minor" fact that you've presented absolutely no proof of this assertion, there are much better ways to address the problems of child starvation or prostitution than offering the children the option of becoming sweatshop laborers instead.

BELIEVING that a child who lives in a given situation is much more qualified to determine whether he would benefit overall from a given occupation than a bureaucrat thousands of miles away.

This is, quite possibly, one of the stupidest things I've ever read in a proposal. And that's saying quite a bit.

Resolution # 14 "Child Labor" is hereby repealed.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Ikir Askanabath, Ambassador

Har har har. I'm rolling in the aisles.



Did I hear the word hunger in the resolution? Does "hungry" automatically equal "get a job, you lazy little brat?" No. This isn't about hunger, it's about children in exploitative circumstances. Or did you not read the resolution you want to repeal? If you want to feed them, fine, they won't be working in such situations then. Until then you are condemning them to their hunger in the name of saving them from the exploitation.

I'm sure you can find a better word to wank with than industrial. Underdeveloped nations are usually largely agricultural, so I see no reason why a son or daughter couldn't find work on the family farm instead of sewing thousands of shirts for rich Objective Valuans.If the kid has a family farm he's probably not going to sign up for a job in heavy industry now is he? And the resolution did mention "manual labor," so it could be construed, given its ambiguity, to forbid your solution too :D.

More poppycock. If little Ankit only works in a coal mine for 5 years of his life before moving on to something better, that's still five years too many for a 6-year-old to be working in a coal mine.And five years is too many for a kid to starve.

Harmalan Shandreð
Ambassador Plenipotens[/b]
Last I checked hunger has more serious health effects than most industries. Many industries do not in fact involve health effects, so even if you do believe they should be kept out of some of them, that is no reason to drop the hammer on all jobs in "industry," including such things as food packaging :D.

Ignoring the "minor" fact that you've presented absolutely no proof of this assertion, there are much better ways to address the problems of child starvation or prostitution than offering the children the option of becoming sweatshop laborers instead.Then do those solutions, and let them know that they don't need to sign up for the sweatshop. Until that day there are still starving children that the UN is forbidding from obtaining food. :D

As for the proof, look OOC at the freely available child prostitutes in Thailand. There are too many nations in NS to hunt down the particular ones that it applies to, but there's also too many for it not to be true of at least a few.

GIVEN that many nation states see fit to employ children under age 12 in manual labor and industry
The mods can clarify, but I'm fairly certain there doesn't have to be a definition clause to make it not apply to retail.

NSY If they want to define manual labor as industry, then retail is the handling of cash with hands and thus industrial.

*snipped*

So your entire argument basically boils down to "children under the age of 12 should be allowed to work in hazardous and difficult conditions because otherwise they'll go hungry and turn into child prostitutes."

This will never be anything other than complete and utter crap.

Harmalan Shandreð
Ambassador Plenipotens

Why, because you doubt the veracity, or because you want them to become hungry or prostitutes?

Labelling something as crap I should note is not an argument.

Why, because you doubt the veracity, or because you want them to become hungry or prostitutes?

Labelling something as crap I should note is not an argument.

Well, 1.) you don't exactly present a very strong argument supporting this

2.) You have no proof that they'll "go hungry or become prostitutes."

Richard York
UN Ambassador

Why, because you doubt the veracity, or because you want them to become hungry or prostitutes?

What veracity? I believe the Snefaldian gentleman summed up the basis for your proposal very well. And as I, and others, have pointed out, you have yet to prove that child labor is somehow a better option (because it isn't). You also have yet to show evidence confirming this "problem" you claim exists in nations that have abolished child labor. Perhaps your nation emphasizes child labor over attending school, because lack of education is just about the only way that your nation's delegates can really believe something so insane.

Labelling something as crap I should note is not an argument.

Sometimes, something you're describing really doesn't merit pretty words or dramatic eloquence. Sometimes, it's just crap. And this proposal of yours is exactly that...no need for rhetorical flourishes.

Ikir Askanabath, Ambassador

I find the arguments presented by the ambassador from Objective Values to be, as my assistant so eloquently put it, "batshit insane." I highly suspect that the real reason you're wanting to repeal Child Labor, is you are wanting to hire cheap child labor for your factories.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Then do those solutions, and let them know that they don't need to sign up for the sweatshop. Until that day there are still starving children that the UN is forbidding from obtaining food. :D
Those solutions already exist, in many and varied forms. Repealing this resolution will not create or alter a single one of them. Your logic is not so much flawed as absent.

If they want to define manual labor as industry, then retail is the handling of cash with hands and thus industrial.
Not even the Vallis Cubiti Primary School Debating Team (currently bottom of the age 7-10 Debating League) would stoop to such Humpy-Dumptyisms.

Hayden Seigfried, the Catawaban Ambassador to the UN, turned his head slowly from side to side, following the debate like a tennis match. He had his large glasses off and was idly nibbling on an earpiece as he rocked slightly in his chair. Sensing a minor lull in the arguments of the other delegates, Hayden sat up in his chair. He pointed with his glasses to Ambassador from the Principality of Objective Values. "My fellow ambassador, I have a few observations, sir." The balding man drawled out his words slightly in the soft, genteel accent of Southern Catawaba. "Now I assume that you are a developed nation, please correct me if I am wrong. Now, my young nation's limited records on your nation (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=objective_values) indicate that you have a rather sharp divide when it comes to economic standing. Also, I do see that you also have a rather staggering crisis when it comes to the starvation and health of some of your citizens. It also seems you have a rather daunting rate of youth crime."

Seigfried settled back into his chair and resumed the nibbling of his glasses' ear piece.

He paused for a moment to accept a file from an aide behind him with a whispered word of thanks. Replacing his large glasses, Seigfried opened to the file to a series of budget projections. "Now, images of children selling their bodies on the streets or starving in the dank ghettoes of a developed nation pluck at the heart strings of any of the delegates here, more so for any parents here who pictures their son or daughter in the same situation. However these are developed nations we are talking about. A developed nation should have the ability and does have the responsibility to care for its less fortunate or less capable of which children should always be the priority in supporting and protecting."

He looked down for a moment and scanned down the budget before him. "Though it seems, Ambassador, than your country does not find the welfare of its less fortunate...or much of its citizenry for that matter (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=Objective+Values) to be in high regard."

The Catawaban took off his glasses again and looked down to the table top for a moment. He glanced up underneath a slight scowl. "I finally arrive at my point, Ambassador, if you will excuse a meandering path to arrive at it. You state that we, the honored body of the United Nations, should repeal a resolution that aims to abolish child labor. The reasoning being that an abolition of child labor leads to starvation or childhood prostitution, which is a illegal under Resolution Ninety-one: the Sex Industry Worker's Act (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8134803&postcount=92) and should justify as youth crime if a child is willfully choosing that shameful occupation. I would dare to surmise that both of these social maladies are present and most likely rampant in your country."

The Catawaban Ambassador glanced about slowly to meet the eyes of his fellow delegates. "My colleagues, I do not see this a nebulous resolution aimed idealistically at helping the plight of children, but as a calculated and nefarious attempt to correct a glaring defect in a corrupt regime at the expense and with the abuse of children. The Armed Republic of Catawaba cannot support measure such as this but recommends that an inquiry be made into the government of the Principality of Objective Values and its treatment of the children of said nation."

That is exactly what I was thinking, after I was remembering how I invented the internet.

These children need to earn their food and shelter just like the rest of us. I agree with Garzadonk.I propose a law should be put in place.:)

If you want to feed them, fine, they won't be working in such situations then. Until then you are condemning them to their hunger in the name of saving them from the exploitation.The unstated implication here is that you have no intention of addressing hunger issues within your purview. You also set up a false dichotomy. Children do not have to be faced with the choice of labor or starve. It should not be necessary to require the care and feeding of children via international law; if it is, there are those who can see their way clear to do so.

Many industries do not in fact involve health effects, so even if you do believe they should be kept out of some of them, that is no reason to drop the hammer on all jobs in "industry," including such things as food packaging All industries have negative health effects for children under the age of 12, whose bodies are not capable of working the long shifts of even the most benign of industrial jobs, of which food packaging isn't one. (Your lack of familiarity with the food industry is obvious and if implemented as law potentially lethal.) Additionally, a 10-year-old working in a factory is a 10-year-old not in school.

Then do those solutions, and let them know that they don't need to sign up for the sweatshop. Until that day there are still starving children that the UN is forbidding from obtaining food.The UN is forbidding no such thing. You continue to assign blame to the UN for actions for which national governments are responsible. If children are starving in your nation, your nation should take steps to address that issue. Without, by the way, sending children into the mines to work.

:D :D :DWe also grow weary of your fool's laugh with respect to this issue. What you seem to find humorous, we think we can say, the majority of this assembly finds disgusting.

In summary, this is one of the vilest proposals we have seen submitted to this assembly. No delegate approval will be forthcoming from us and should it miraculously achieve quorum we will gladly provide strong opposition.

Leetha Talone,
UN Ambassador

I support this repeal...as it gives a chance for the children of the nations to choose whether they would want to work or not...I my self wished to work as a part of a game development team....when i was a weee lad. I say we should allow children to work if they want to work for money....and besides it instills a sense of hard work an essential tool for a developing country.....

UGL representatvie:Alan

I support this repeal...as it gives a chance for the children of the nations to choose whether they would want to work or not...I my self wished to work as a part of a game development team....when i was a weee lad. I say we should allow children to work if they want to work for money....and besides it instills a sense of hard work an essential tool for a developing country.....

UGL representatvie:Alan

Seigfried slowly turned his head to focus in on the representative from the United Gaming League. "Sir, have you read the UN resolution on Child Labor (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12131355&postcount=192)? It says nothing to prevent a child from working. It only forbids children from working in 'any mines, factories, chemical plants or ANY OTHER industrial occupation.' Does your nation consider game developement to be an industrial occupation?"

I'm afraid your accusations, Catawaba, seem to rely overmuch on strange records. I don't recall any foreign statisticians visiting since the Rahl Revolution (in which the Khan Shaitan Nocens and his followers were executed for expropriations from the populace). I certainly haven't see anyone starving anywhere, and the rich-poor gap is strictly because the rich are extremely rich. The poor are no poorer than normal, and often less so due to the high demand of labor.

If you are relying on the UN records, I should note that it seems to be their practice to simply read the laws of a nation and attempt to predict what a nation is like from that, and the people they hire for the job tend to be rather left-leaning. The reason the UN passes out the records they do is that a. they never visit the nations in question, and b. they've never read and understood Ludwig von Mises.

--Ambassador willers.

I'm afraid your accusations, Catawaba, seem to rely overmuch on strange records. I don't recall any foreign statisticians visiting since the Rahl Revolution (in which the Khan Shaitan Nocens and his followers were executed for expropriations from the populace). I certainly haven't see anyone starving anywhere, and the rich-poor gap is strictly because the rich are extremely rich. The poor are no poorer than normal, and often less so due to the high demand of labor.
So you admit that when you claim that children in the streets are being forced to choose between prostitution (which others have already noted is also illegal) and starvation due to Child Labor, you are in fact lying?

If you are relying on the UN records, I should note that it seems to be their practice to simply read the laws of a nation and attempt to predict what a nation is like from that, and the people they hire for the job tend to be rather left-leaning. The reason the UN passes out the records they do is that a. they never visit the nations in question, and b. they've never read and understood Ludwig von Mises.
Given the lack of congruence between the honoured ambassador and reality, we can't say that we are surprised that he has failed to note the UN Gnomes at work.

"I suggest that the estemed deligate from Objective Values re-read the resolution that he is so bent on repealing. I don't see any part of the resolution talking about what you think it talks about.

So lets re-read it together. Do you see any part of it that even remotely is what you depict in your Repeal Proposal?"


CHILD LABOR

A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Strong
Proposed by: Santa Barbara

Description: GIVEN that many nation states see fit to employ children under age 12 in manual labor and industry,

GIVEN that these industries and labor are often highly detrimental to a child's body and health,

BELIEVING that it is a fundamental right to be given the chance to grow up educated and free from unneccesary disease, injury, and possible death from industrial work,

ASSERTING that it is immoral and atrocious to force children , by manipulation, authority or raw strength, to work for corporation or state,

Be it hereby resolved that the UN shall guarantee the rights of children to NOT work in any mines, factories, chemical plants or ANY OTHER industrial occupation; moreover, it shall be prohibited for a child to take up labor in such an occupation.

Votes For: 16512

Votes Against: 3394

Implemented: Tue May 13 2003

What a load of ***** ****. If your so worried about the well-being of children, then work on improving conditions in developing countries. Mandate free education. Propose an anti-prostitution resolution. Don't sanction allowing children to work in manual labour(or any labour). They will be exploited. This is exploitation masquerading as mercy. This proposal is an insult to the UN. Contemptable.

So you admit that when you claim that children in the streets are being forced to choose between prostitution (which others have already noted is also illegal) and starvation due to Child Labor, you are in fact lying?Pay attention. I said I don't see people starving anywhere in the context of talking about MY COUNTRY.

And just because things are illegal doesn't make them vanish.

Mandate free education. Education does not feed people, and the only way to mandate it is to steal from people. I do not engage in theft, nor do I sanction it.

Propose an anti-prostitution resolution Child prostitution is already illegal, that doesn't make it vanish. And banning prostitution entails, I'm afraid, an initiation of force

So does banning child labor I should add. :D

My motives are of course obvious, that doesn't change the dilemma of you humanitarian types- in a situation where the choice is between children starving, children finding illegal work, or the UN repealing this resolution, which will you choose? In a world where there are so many UN nations, this hypothetical is too simple not to come to pass somewhere.

shaz: "
Be it hereby resolved that the UN shall guarantee the rights of children to NOT work in any mines, factories, chemical plants or ANY OTHER industrial occupation; moreover, it shall be prohibited for a child to take up labor in such an occupation.
"

is the part in question. Not all industries are the kinds of things the original proposal would like to depict them as, and yet the proposal believes that in all situations industrial child labor should be banned, having no exceptions whatsoever for situations where the choice is : find some sort of work, or starve.

Pay attention. I said I don't see people starving anywhere in the context of talking about MY COUNTRY.

And just because things are illegal doesn't make them vanish.
Congratulations on undermining your entire argument.

Pay attention. I said I don't see people starving anywhere in the context of talking about MY COUNTRY.

And just because things are illegal doesn't make them vanish.

Of course! I see the light. I'm going to return to my country and lobby for the removal of all criminal penalties and the immediate legalization of murder, rape, insurance fraud, chemical dumping, theft, arson, assault, plagiarism, and cancer. Because goddamn, if people are just going to do it anyway what's the point?

Education does not feed people, and the only way to mandate it is to steal from people. I do not engage in theft, nor do I sanction it.

You'd rather have a six-year-old mining coal than learning how to read?

Child prostitution is already illegal, that doesn't make it vanish. And banning prostitution entails, I'm afraid, an initiation of force

So does banning child labor I should add. :D

Some things require force to outlaw. The fact that you cannot see this is scary.

My motives are of course obvious, that doesn't change the dilemma of you humanitarian types- in a situation where the choice is between children starving, children finding illegal work, or the UN repealing this resolution, which will you choose? In a world where there are so many UN nations, this hypothetical is too simple not to come to pass somewhere.

I have a badge- "Humanitarian Type and Proud." You're also very pessimistic. Clearly, children have no opportunities outside of working a stamp press or having sex for money. In your world, children are responsible for themselves and themselves alone- never mind that the parents best equipped to provide for the welfare of a child. Forget them! Let's shackle a 50-year-old to a cart in a bauxite mine and watch them get phossy jaw. That's the ticket.

Not all industries are the kinds of things the original proposal would like to depict them as, and yet the proposal believes that in all situations industrial child labor should be banned, having no exceptions whatsoever for situations where the choice is : find some sort of work, or starve.

Tell me truthfully- do you think that a 7 year old girl would do a better job working on an assembly line than a 32 year old man? Because I'd really like to know the state of labour in your country if you labor under the idea that children are a goldmine in workforce just waiting to be cracked open like Midas' tomb.

If the only choice of poor children in your country is making cars or fucking to feed themselves, send them to our country and we will gladly feed and educate them, and not feel like we're stealing from our people to do it. I'm sure life in Snefaldia will be much better for them.

Raphaël Sondrásái
First Secretary

I'm afraid your accusations, Catawaba, seem to rely overmuch on strange records.

--Ambassador willers.

Ambassador Seigfreid cleared his throat. "First off, Ambassador Willers I would appreciate not being called by the name of my country, sir. I am neither its ruler nor important enough to be addressed as 'Catawaba.' I am Hayden Seigfried, if we have not be introduced. You may also address me as Mister Seigfried, Ambassador, Sir, or Colonel if it so strikes your fancy."

He glanced down at the records in question before looking back up to address the ambassador from Objective Values. "Sir, I do apologize if you feel that UN reports and economic calculation based on UN statistics to be offensive and entirely incorrect. However, I do see an interesting corellation between the stated reasoning for this proposal and things reported by UN administration." Seigfried glanced down at the current UN report on Objective Values. "Interestingly enough, you country is now reported to be teaching children to kill men from about eighteen to twenty yards. But that is beside the point, I suppose."

He folded his hands on the table and looked straight at Ambassador Willers. "Sir, if I might inquire, what specific event or inspiration drove you to propose this piece of legislation? I doubt you woke up one morning and felt a muse light upon your shoulder whispering that you should act to allow children the freedom to toil in unhealthy and perilous working conditions."

Apparently Secretary Sondraisi has not heard of orphans. Those children with adequate parents are of course entirely unaffected by this proposal.

And I don't tend to judge whether someone is qualified to work on an assembly line perhaps 10-15 hours a week (obviously a business would be ill advised to hire for any length more than that) in addition to school from simply their age. Children do have nimble hands, even if they are not exactly the best in terms of stamina.


Interestingly enough, you country is now reported to be teaching children to kill men from about eighteen to twenty yards Correct, Ambassador Siegfried. It is a program funded by Prince Rahl's estates. They do happen to learn a lot of biology that way (one needs it to do such things without firearms, and Prince Rahl doesn't want to annoy their parents by providing them with such noisy things), and they are free to leave the program at any time. They seem to think it's fun however.

I should note that the high youth crime rates in our nation may indeed reflect the criminal status of child laborers caused by this resolution. I don't want children who do piecework at home for pocket money (the status of such as "industrial" is unclear at best), or who set up small businesses bottling lemonade to put the profits in their college fund (beverage bottling, though it's not particularly dangerous, is definitely industrial), to feel like criminals.

I have no particular taste for the thought of starving children in less capitalistic nations either, though admittedly it's not my main concern.

"The Shazbotdom Empire still believes that this piece of legislation that you are proposing is completely and utterly useless. Repealilng something on the book that has helped countless nations is rather foolharty. And the way you worded your proposal makes me wonder if there is some other reason why you are doing this? The masses of the United Nations voted For this Resolution that youa re attempting to repeal, and the masses still approve of this piece of legilsation. Why the leadership of your nation does not like this piece of legislation is beyond me and, it seem, the rest of the deligation assembled here today."

Mr. Henry K. Ledson
Assistant to the UN Deligate