NationStates Jolt Archive

Category: Repeal
Resolution: #232
Proposed by: Ancient Zutopia

Description: UN Resolution #232: Abolition of Slavery (Category: Human Rights; Strength: Strong) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: Several nations in the world depended on slavery. Most of the people that were slaves can't get a job now and don't know what to do. We need to repeal this resolution once and for all so nations can have slaves if they choose to.



I need approvals for this resolution to repeal Abolition of Slavery. By posting, I was hoping some delegates that would like slavery to be a choice nations can make for themselves, but were unaware of my resolution would notice my thread.

National sovereignty arguments are no longer considered valid by the moderators. That and, your second sentence: for the sake of former slaves who can't find a paying job, we must return them to slavery?! Pardon my snort.

Solensina Tadefta, head of the Safalran UN Delegation, writes:

Several nations in the world depended on slavery.
A depressingly large collection of governments rely on a range of gross human rights abuses to prolong their repressive regimes. Why should we make it easy for them?

Most of the people that were slaves can't get a job now and don't know what to do.
Are you seriously arguing that forced labour is preferable to inactivity?

What I'm arguing, Safalra, is that forced labor, room, board, and provision of necessities, is more beneficial than unemployment and homelessness

Solensina Tadefta, head of the Safalran UN Delegation, writes:

What I'm arguing, Safalra, is that forced labor, room, board, and provision of necessities, is more beneficial than unemployment and homelessness
How is the slave who is whipped while he works, fed stale bread, and then given a few hours to sleep on the open ground any better off than a homeless man who at least has the shelter of a cardboard box and a doorway and can rely on food hand-outs from sympathetic passers-by? Furthermore, in the more caring nations the homeless are given much better treatment than this.

You also assume that the only options are slavery or unemployment. The jobs the slaves performed (usually agricultural tasks) still need to be done, and many slaves will be 're-employed' in similar roles, but much better conditions.

(OOC: if a player names a diplomatic representative in their post, it's more polite to refer to them by that name rather than their nation name.)

My nation uses Slavery as a form of corporal punishment...so i agree with the delegate from Ancient Zutopia that this must be repealed. Slavery as a corporal punishment is more benifitial to nations than most of you think. Free labor is a great way to cut back costs on construction projects..seeing as all you have to do is give them food and make them work.

My nation uses Slavery as a form of corporal punishment
No you don't.

thank you for your support, United gaming Leauge, and to get back with you safalra, slave owners don't have to be cruel to their slaves, be it indentured servants or free labor, most of them, in fact, from my understanding, are nice to their slaves because then the slaves are happy and healthy and can be more productive, and less likely to run away

Slavery is an unmoral activity and its ban must be enforced. To the countries that use slavery if they were to industrialize they won't need slaves.

My nation uses Slavery as a form of corporal punishment

We suggest that the honoured ambassador look up the definition of "corporal punishment" and try again.

Solensina Tadefta, head of the Safalran UN Delegation, writes:


How is the slave who is whipped while he works, fed stale bread, and then given a few hours to sleep on the open ground any better off than a homeless man who at least has the shelter of a cardboard box and a doorway and can rely on food hand-outs from sympathetic passers-by? Furthermore, in the more caring nations the homeless are given much better treatment than this.

You also assume that the only options are slavery or unemployment. The jobs the slaves performed (usually agricultural tasks) still need to be done, and many slaves will be 're-employed' in similar roles, but much better conditions.



Ambassador Tadefta, you are also making an assumption. Until recently, Mexar had slaves, and they were seldom whipped, and always given good food and shelter. In some respects, they were better off than they are now because their master was responsible for their needs. Slavery doesn't require mistreatment.

Jorge Ortega, Ambassador of Mexar

Same goes for UGL.....we only whip them when they disobey.

How is the slave who is whipped while he works, fed stale bread, and then given a few hours to sleep on the open ground any better off than a homeless man who at least has the shelter of a cardboard box and a doorway and can rely on food hand-outs from sympathetic passers-by?While I'm never one to support slavery, you're kind of poisoning the well here. Not all slaves are only given a few hours of sleep and all the other things you mention. After all, an intelligent owner would never do the things you listed. Just like an intelligent person wouldn't routinely beat on his television with a spanner.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Tindalos/UN/Verm.jpg
Vermithrax Pejorative
UN Observer
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious Hack

Slavery doesn't require mistreatment.

There are quite a few of us who would argue that depriving an innocent person of their freedom, and forcing them to labor against their will, is in itself a form of mistreatment. Opposed.

Ikir Askanabath, Ambassador

The Principality of Beaucalsradt, although firmly opposed to involuntary slavery, feels that there should be made allowance for voluntary submission of the individual to slavery, under strict terms, and supervision.
It would allow for an alternative to homelessness in the case of bankruptcy; we refer to known cases from antiquity, where a man could sell himself in slavery for a fixed term of years, allowing his family to stay in their home; while it is possible for every nation to make provisions for families in these cases, it is our observation, that there are cases where these provisions do not meet the needs of these people, forcing them out on the street.
It is our opinion, then, that a voluntary term of slavery, under strict terms and supervisions, where all debts are paid in full, is much preferable to a homeless state. Furthermore, it is our observation that without this option, there are homeless, that, while they have no criminal intention, yet will make offences grave enough to end up in prison, with food and lodgings. It is our opinion that this fate is essentially the same as voluntary slavery, with the addition of suffering before entering it. Another implication of this, is that places are taken up by essentially harmless people, which could be taken up by those with real criminal intentions.
A beneficial, voluntary concept of slavery, would thus, in our opinion, soften the fate of more than one group, in addition to lowering costs to the state for providing penitentiary institutions with all material implications. The cost for personnel, though, would be the same, as one would need officers to control the conditions of the voluntary enslaved.
This would be put forward as a free choice, holding open all existing alternatives.

Respectfully,

Count de Saint-Germain à Clerques,
National emissary to the NSUN
for the Principality of Beaucalsradt

While I'm never one to support slavery, you're kind of poisoning the well here. Not all slaves are only given a few hours of sleep and all the other things you mention.
We do not intend to imply that all slave owners are so brutal (or that there are not nations which abuse their homeless). Our point is that this does happen, and that the Ancient Zutopian ambassador's rose-tinted view of slavery as preferable to homelessness is as ridiculous as it is disturbing.

After all, an intelligent owner would never do the things you listed. Just like an intelligent person wouldn't routinely beat on his television with a spanner.
On the contrary, we have witnessed many people attack their televisions upon being incapable of obtaining good reception. Many people will, when angry, attack objects (including other people) they hold responsible, even if such action is clearly counter-productive. Indeed, many slave owners seem to regard classical conditioning (physical punishment in response to incorrect behaviour) as an effect method for training slaves.

http://www.safalra.com/hotlinkable/solensina-tadefta.png

If freed slaves can't now get a job, then I'll agree that is a problem. But instead of bolting back into the fire, why don't we consider some alternatives for international legislation. Perhaps an agreement on the free movement of working persons? Or the establishment of an international agency that could usefully find temporary employment for those out of work, for example on environmental, creative or public works projects? Another thing would be to increase funding for retraining programs, to provide new skills; this could be coupled to a more extensive use of the type of system employed by Resolution #132 to help people finance their own small businesses. In the short term, of course, we might need to go further in mandating some emergency welfare provisions, and in the long term, to address the structural inadequacies of economies that continue to yield high unemployment.

But for now, why not be a bit creative? Unemployment is obviously an international issue; I'm sure we can come up with some interesting solutions.

-- Samantha Benson
Congressional Liaison
Quintessence of Dust Department of UN Affairs

But for now, why not be a bit creative? Unemployment is obviously an international issue; I'm sure we can come up with some interesting solutions.I dearly hope you're being ironic, Ms. Benson. ~Cdr. Chiang

Actually I could see some sort of resolution at least setting up a framework for free movement of working persons and encouraging job training for the unemployed. Something to think about. If one nation has unemployed peoples and another has a large number of vacancies, facilitating their movement is a definitively free trade thing to do.

Are you kidding me?

Are you nuts?

Do you know just how bad slavery is? :confused:

Are you kidding me?

Are you nuts?

Do you know just how bad slavery is? :confused:

I don't think anyone knows how bad slavery is. Most of the people in this world haven't seen it since the ones that have are either dead, enslaves people, or are enslaved and can't complain.

Asking the United Nations to provide sanction for slavery is ludicrous. This august body cannot consider the reversion to the unjust deprevation of liberty. Man is born inhertly free, this body has enshrined this convention and cannot allowed its degredation.

Sir Robert Holst
Delegate to United Nations

we're not asking them to support it, jsut to allow it so that a nation can recover, just support it till the membership votes. Bring it back to the general population.

An extremely stupid proposition. My country will not support the sanction of forced ownership of other persons.

Raphaël Sondrásái
First Secretary

How is the slave who is whipped while he works,
One doesn't beat a mule to death if he depends on it to work for him and benifit him so what makes you think all slaves were abused. Look at the lives of those who remain in their native lands and how they live in those lands compared to where they were slaves until set free.

fed stale bread, and then given a few hours to sleep on the open groundAgain if you pay well for a good horse to race for you and make profits for you then you do not abuse them to a point they no longer are able to work for you. This crap of one abuses slaves it no worse than some things happen in the free world between employeers who pay then abuse their emplorees. As it happens so now we ban any type of employment that might result in the empoyer abusing the employee. Why is it any different if I pay a person in room and board to do a job or seashells.. that he then takes and buys room and board from me or someone else able to own it and sale it to them..

any better off than a homeless man who at least has the shelter of a cardboard box and a doorway and can rely on food hand-outs from sympathetic passers-by?We would lock this man up for some violation of our laws and citizens would demand it of us. As we don't believe in a welfare state. If you can work then you will be able to get the things you need and want.. If you choose not to work and earn those things then beg for them we lock you up and either you work or are without...

Furthermore, in the more caring nations the homeless are given much better treatment than this.And many nations now wish they had not started giving handouts out... As it drains their society of funds to help those willing to work and build a better life for themselves by promoting welfare....

You also assume that the only options are slavery or unemployment. The jobs the slaves performed (usually agricultural tasks) still need to be done, and many slaves will be 're-employed' in similar roles, but much better conditions.But far to many end up in worse conditions because former owners can't afford to become employers and also provide for their own family and pay taxes that support the welfare systems that grow due to soft heart fools wanting to give things to former slaves that others have to work for...

So this argument of slavery being bad because one owner might be abusing his slaves is bull... Are we going to ban ownership of certain animals by everyone because a few people abuse animals? No you deal with anyone who abuses either an animal or other person... be they owned or free. A society with no heart fails to survive because they destroy themselves from within so one must protect all living things...

Also again if you have a mule that your ride to town for things you need and it pulls the plow to clear fields so you can plant food are you going to abuse it to the point it can't serve you. No owner or employer who wants to make a profit abuses their work force to a point they can't work. All have the right to fire and get rid of those who refuse to work and thus cost them profit... Slave or free if you don't work you won't have it here.

*facepalms*

Listen, I understand your concerns about unemployment and cheap labor, but the people have already voted against Slavery. They did so by repealing an earlier resolution on Slavery (to replace it with something better). Many people hated slavery, and so do I.

But that doesn't mean cheap labor is not to be gone. As QoD has stated, the UN can make a resolution helping the unemployed. You can also rely on temp agencies, that allow for you to hire temporary workers at subsistence wages. It's not actual slavery, as the person is willing to sell their labor at a low price, but it is still cheap and highly effective. You are, after all, still paying for the temp. worker to work. Treat the temp. worker the same rights you would treat the slave, but ensure the temp. worker can leave his job given a 2-week notice...and that the temp. worker cannot be bought or sold.

That's it. It's not that hard.

POW Labor and Prison Labor are also allowed as well. It's not considered slavery.

Basically, many nations can go around the ban on slavery. I suggest you use them for your own beniefts. There are tons of dictatorships in the NSUN who commits even more evil acts that makes slavery looks like a god-send by comparison. Find the loopholes. Follow the leads of 'less-morally-inclined' nations. Stay alert, and always talk to the gnomes.

---Dr. Bob

My nation uses Slavery as a form of corporal punishment A person convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison is not a SLAVE they are CONVICTED CRIMINALS and this resolution has nothing to do with how they are treated.. It deals with freed slaves not CONVICTED CRIMINALS.. So please don't start calling putting CRIMINALS in prisons and making them work SLAVERY.. they are not the same function... Criminals give up all their freedoms once they are caught and convicted of crimes. Slaves did nothing their rights were taken from them... without any trail or charges...

we're not asking them to support it, jsut to allow it so that a nation can recover, just support it till the membership votes. Bring it back to the general population.

Colonel Hayden Siegfried, Ambassador to the United Nations from the Armed Republic of Catawaba, looked down at his fingers, peaked on his stomach. He rocked his chair back and glanced up under furrowed brows. He cleared his throat and sat up, letting his chair straighten. "With all due respect to my fellow diplomat from Turlmanistan, any support for this measure, even just to allow it to come to vote, would be a gross offense and a breach of basic human morality in the eyes of Catawaban government. The Armed Republic of Catawaba not only refuses to offer support but condemns the spirit and logic behind this proposal."

Siegfried cast a curt glance of his light grey eyes towards the ambassador from Ancient Zutopia. "These 'so-called' reasons for allowing slavery to continue are a historically failed form of reasoning. They have been recounted numerous times by various 'slaveocracies' and each time have failed to convince any right-thinking people to preserve a dispicable practice as such slavery."

The Catawaban passed a more neutral, calmer look over his fellow diplomats. "It has not been that long since Catawaba threw off the oppression of Togovia and its iron-fisted TogOverlord. The people of Catawaba can not in good conscience even contemplate allowing others to be placed in a state of oppression exponentially worse than our former state." Siegfried leaned back in his chair again, passing a hand through his thinning black hair.

My nation uses Slavery as a form of corporal punishment...so i agree with the delegate from Ancient Zutopia that this must be repealed. Slavery as a corporal punishment is more benifitial to nations than most of you think. Free labor is a great way to cut back costs on construction projects..seeing as all you have to do is give them food and make them work.

i agree as well

i agree as well

We must repeat Comrade Ambassador Felix's observation: no, you don't.

We would once again plead for opening the possibility of voluntary slavery; as was pointed out with regard to the lawful punishment of criminals; those were free to give up their freedom, and did so, when they chose to break the law. Regarding then, that there are historical precedents of these convicts having been rented out during their term, and the possibility of convicting these for life, we wonder why it should not be possible for any citizen to give up his freedom for a predetermined timespan, and under strict regulations.
Although we provide for our citizens in lesser stations of life, and financial misfortune, it is our unfortunate observation, that we cannot always meet the needs of these families, without committing a greater injustice to our other citizens.
We would like to point out that this in no way would diminish our other, more conventional efforts, and that it would only be made available as one other option.
This being said, we look down on all forms of involuntary slavery, and have liberated our serfs even before joining the NSUN.

Respectfully,

Count de Saint Germain à Clerques,
National emissary to the NSUN,
for the Principality of Beaucalsradt

Here here!!

i would support you

Ugh.... I can't believe i'm hearing this. After all of the trouble and debating and revising that went into getting Abolition of Slavery to replace End Slavery we now have some idi- Err i mean delegates who want to legalize it again? Have you all no shame. People speak of former slaves forced onto the streets when they are freed, of slaves that wern't whipped or punished. You know what? I think you should try reading some of the written acounts of former slaves. Modern slavery was and is brutal and inhumane. Even if you wern't whipped, you were still in sub-standared conditions forced to work long hours without adequate and fair compensation. Not to mention the fact that it has been proven in psychological studies that nobody in their right mind would actually desire slavery! Now, i'm perfectly open to a person entering into a contract where they work for someone in exhange for room and board and have the ability to walk out if they so desire, which i might add is not banned by this resoloution, but that's as far as it should ever go. If you really need slavery to stay afloat, then leave the UN! No one's stopping you.

~Sadrin Darkfire, UN Rep. of Ice Forge

I agree whole heartedly with Sadrin. Slavery is a terrible thing and should not be considered. As to volintary slavery if someone is willing to do to themselves that then so be it, but they should always have the ability to opt out of slavery if they so choose, which means its not really slaver in the first place because its not being forced on people.

OOC: I know it's a game mechanics thing but God I'd wish there would be a rule about a moratorium on repeals for new legislation... this crap gets tedious.


IC:

Slavery in any form, for any purpose is wrong, and while arguments can be made to rationalize it, they can't not be made to make it acceptable.

Opposed.


Nigel S Youlkin
USoP UN Ambassador

OOC: I know it's a game mechanics thing but God I'd wish there would be a rule about a moratorium on repeals for new legislation... this crap gets tedious.

OOC: Oh, you weren't here for the Promotion of Solar Panels (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9692882&postcount=123) debacle. By the time the debate that accompanied the voting on that resolution had finished, even its own author had been persuaded to support it being repealed (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9875378&postcount=125) as quickly as possible...
And then, of course, there was the much more recent 'Max Barry Day' resolution...

There is a time for diplomacy, and a time for saying "no." What kind of dtyrinical nation condones slavery? And what incomptant administration cannot switch to alternative forms of prodction?:headbang: To even see this resoluton on the table makes me weep for the state of humanity. Should this resolution pass, my nation will offer sanctuary to anyone facing slavery in their own countries, up to the limit which my nation can support. Our constitution also require us to place full economic sanctions on any slave state. Lastly I would remind all that history is soaked in the blood of slave holders, the inocents they tortured, and the heros who died to free them. I hope that my government's possision is clear.

Signed: Office Of The President, Vespberg Square.

Might I take the time to state that many - not all, but many - of the slave narratives were not written by former slaves, but by those opposing slavery, and that in a few cases where former slaves were educated, those actually defended slavery (and gained a PhD doing so)?
Naturally, more recent times have seen other examples. In more than a few cases, however, it has been more than detrimental to the economy. Not to mention that a mentality of several centuries is not easily reverted. Sudden freedom may be as detrimental to those gaining it, as loss of it would be to those used to it.
We could point to what happened at the liberation of some former colonies, where -if you pardon my french - the child was thrown out with the bath water; perfectly fit schools, hospitals, factories and plantations were burnt down, in a rage of revenge, causing many humanitarian problems later on. We are not claiming that slavery is the moral high ground, but the opposite is not always the best way either.
The point we are advocating, however, is a term of slavery, which would abolish all debts of the one choosing it, something many people even with three jobs cannot manage in their lifetime. It would be regulated, as to housing, food and health, but it would not allow them the liberty of quitting, and their services would be transferable from one employer to another, once again, within bounds; all of which is strictly speaking slavery. We would, however, rather not be hypocrite and define it otherwise, but call a spade a spade.

Respectfully,

Count de Saint-Germain à Clerques,
National Emissary to the NSUN,
For the Principality of Beaucalsradt

OOC: Note that I am not in favour of any kind of slavery, nor do I want to go back to the unfortunate circumstances of many colonies, but some actions in liberating them were too rash, like where farming engines stand burnt in what once was a field in a now starving nation. The concept of slavery to pay all depts in full is actually taken from the Old Testament, though is presented somewhat less extreme. (If my memory does not fail me.)

The point we are advocating, however, is a term of slavery, which would abolish all debts of the one choosing it, something many people even with three jobs cannot manage in their lifetime. It would be regulated, as to housing, food and health, but it would not allow them the liberty of quitting, and their services would be transferable from one employer to another, once again, within bounds; all of which is strictly speaking slavery. We would, however, rather not be hypocrite and define it otherwise, but call a spade a spade.

*The CEO of Servant Corps (http://forums1.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=521964), now offically bankrupt due to a total of zero nations actually buying his lazy temp workers, enters with a ragged shirt and pants*

"Nah. You're better off coming up with a more friendler term, because I can tell you, that's not slavery. That's partly indentured servtuide. Which, um, is illegal anyway under this resolution. But, still, not slavery.

The reason people don't like it is this 'owning' of human beings. And I think, well, we can't do that. It's beyond the pale of discussion. And, UN law already calls for the freeing of slaves. Wheter you like it or not, freedom has already been granted to slaves, and the nations that are once enslaved are now not doing so, and instead doing 'sharecropping', which we believe is more effective. It may have been radical, but the damage has been done. Let us accept it and move on.

Taking that freedom away now will just cause the former slaves to rebel, and will likely enough get us all lynched. We're much better off providing aid to the former slave nations in the UN and guiding them towards better, more advanced economices. I'd help create such a charity if you so wish.

That being said, as the CEO of Servants Corp, I would like to have this sort of thing you propose inscribed in law. And we would be willing to help draft such a proposal allowing for such regulations of labor, but with certain limits. And obeying Abolition of Slavery and Abolition of Forced Labor after all. I think we can have both resolutions on the book.

But we have to be very, very careful. Because it is not slavery. It's uh...er...give me a second, let me think..."

--CEO of Servant Corps

(OOC: I'm against slavery, even indentured servitude and what you propose.

Doesn't mean I can't ICly help draft a proposal supporting it though, Beaucalsradt, but I'll probraly need to have some other puppet do the drafting rather than SilentScope003 (...like Servant Corps). And unless I get some free time, you might probraly need to do the TG campagin yourself and defend it. But I can help, in providing assistance, of course.

And I'd be better off allowing nations the right to choose this sort of method, otherwise, you'll get a hurl of abuse from nations not wanting to support this. But, I still think it would be far, far better if 'slave nations' just use loopholes and don't tell the rest of the world what they want to do.

The most important thing is coming up with a name that does not suggest 'slavery' at all. Because slavery will automatically get people to turn against you...so, hm...

EDIT: According to Wikipedia, what you propose is known as "debt bondage" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage) or "peonage", and I'd suggest using those terms because they seem to have a less negative connation. I strongly suggest 'debt bondage' because it just feel like an accurate description. Ice Forge's suggestions are really good ones and is something I would likely wish to follow if you think this is a good idea.)

Feh. Who needs a repeal of this legislature? We use something even better than slavery - desperation for keeping one's job that workers, shall we say, forgive their bosses for "forgetting" to pay them here and there, and don't mind the low wages.

Honestly, who needs slavery? A repeal of this, we cannot support.

this repeal proposal is long gone, I'd prefer everyone to stop posting and let the thread die, thanks

I would support this repeal, but for the fact that by the time voting comes up I would already have left the UN over their attempt to take over the setting of economic policy for my nation.

Regarding slavery, my slaves were treated better than a thouroughbred, and not a one of them would have traded places with a prole in one of your horrifying economic powerhouses.

My participation in the UN is not a surrender of my responsibilities for the welfare of my people, and it is not a conferral of authority for the setting of morality within my borders.

Juan

this repeal proposal is long gone, I'd prefer everyone to stop posting and let the thread die, thanks

"Nah, 'beating a dead horse'* is a fun thing to do."
---Dr. Bob

*This statement does not condone violence towards horses, alive or dead.

(OOC: Plus, I still want to hear from Beaucalsradt. Likely enough, any new resolution from this discussion will be posted as a new topic)

OOC; Thanks for the suggestion: I'd like to continue this over telegram, until the time a new thread may come into being.