NationStates Jolt Archive

Greetings fellow members of the United Nations.

This isn't a resolution in and of its self. But its the starting of one. I want to work with the assembly in drafting a resolution that will protect individuals who are still under development.

So far the definition that I am promoting is any Individual that is in the process of Human development. Because we are all under Human development. Sometimes that development means we loose more cells than we create and we start to age, loose bone marrow become fickle and need protection. Other times that means we're making more cells than we're loosing we're growing and our minds are taking in a lot of new knowledge. And other times that means our cells are splitting at a rapid rate and our organisms are one by one starting to function for the first time.

The United Nations exist primarily to promote the improvement of human lives.But in order to improve lives we need to secure those lives. In order for those lives to improve from bad conditions to good conditions, they're development from one form to another needs to be protected.

The basic rights I am seeking is simply that Individuals in Human Developments who have not committed a crime in their country -not be executed or abused. And that one Individual in Human development who executes or abuses another Individual in Human Development should be punished with the equivalent capital offense of the land, even if the two Individuals are at different stages in their developement.

I believe this is integral in the role of the UN , and it will help millions of people throughout the world. I am looking for any support I can get in formalizing and developing the resolution, and also a co-author. Thank you ,

.

That sounds confusing... why not just teach them the Wawa and let the people sort out the details amongst each other?

I suspect a proposal such as you describe would contradict the Abortion Legality Convention (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10737905&postcount=148) and might be ruled illegal on that basis.

Former Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

Karshkovia must second the Esteemed Edward Jones in this matter.

looks like the first battle is to repeal that then.

looks like the first battle is to repeal that then.

I would advise against it. From what I gather, you're not exactly pro-abortion, and right now, the ALC is what's keeping the UN from legalizing abortion in all nations, which is what this body had done previously. And probably would try to do again, were you to give them the chance by repealing it.

Former Minister of UN Affairs
Edward Jones

Solensina Tadefta, head of the Safalran UN Delegation, writes:

We are intrigued by the proposal of the respected ambassador of Quisquella. It seems your concept of 'Human Development' is similar to one axis of our philosophers' concept of the Human Continuum. However, we profoundly disagree with your conclusion that the existence of such a continuum implies the equivalence of all points within it - we call this the Continuum Fallacy. The example we use in our schools is that a continuum exists between a chair and a bench, and that one can be transformed into the other by a series of arbitrarily small changes, but that does not imply a chair and a bench are equivalent.

Solensina Tadefta, head of the Safalran UN Delegation, writes:

We are intrigued by the proposal of the respected ambassador of Quisquella. It seems your concept of 'Human Development' is similar to one axis of our philosophers' concept of the Human Continuum. However, we profoundly disagree with your conclusion that the existence of such a continuum implies the equivalence of all points within it - we call this the Continuum Fallacy. The example we use in our schools is that a continuum exists between a chair and a bench, and that one can be transformed into the other by a series of arbitrarily small changes, but that does not imply a chair and a bench are equivalent.

Firstly I affirm that an embryo and a fetus are both undergoing human development.Human development being the development or maintenance of biological qualities and processes unique to the Human animal.

I would like to point out that your argument is completely the opposite of what is happening when we discuss human development. For the chair to become a bench you would have to make "arbitrarily small changes" , you'd have to go against the natural path of that chair to continue to be a chair, and ulter it to now be a bench. With an embreyo and fetus, we would have to go against the natural path of that embreyo/fetus to become a recognizable human, and alter it to become a useless sack of amniotic fluid/waste. So I don't think your example applies.

I would like to continue to state that a point by definition has the equivalent value/size as every other point ever in existence. A point has no volume or mass, it is merely a point on something else, in geometry that something else is a 2-d or 3-d plane. It is where that point is located that defines the point, and in Human Development any one phase(point) in our life should be valued the same as every other phase simply because of the fact that we are part of humanity. And not only that, but that any phase in one person's life should be valued the same as a phase in another person's life -equality, this is what many great thinkers believed in. And it should be equality before the law, and that is why I am working on a coalition to help draft a resolution that would bring that equality into existence. And equality that makes the destruction of the development of a Human in any phase it is in, something reserved for due process of law for that particular country.

I'm not interesting in dictating what that country must due, only that it must do something that requires legal proceeding and the administration of justice at the same level that any other crime of the caliber would receive.

Can someone translate this proposal into plain english for me, please?

Can someone translate this proposal into plain english for me, please?

Going by the fact that it apparently contradicts the ALC, I think it bans abortion, but to be honest I'm not quite sure myself.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

"Actually, to me, it doesn't just 'ban' abortion, it also allows for childern not to be killed for any reason (except for a crime), and that any kid who kills or attack any another kid (or adult as well) get punished in the same way as an adult would, even up to capital punishment.

Way to go, Pro-Life!

The whole 'ban' abortion should just be shelved (ALC was made to protect people from banning abortion, better to have this than to be forced to run murder camps for kids, oh god no!) and focus on the other parts, but I bet it just duplicates the Childern Protection Act as well. Still, nice idea on the whole "Indivudals in Human Development", but there is a high proportion of members in the NSUN who are NOT human (and the goal of the UN is to Help the world, not just humans), so sorry. This would also crimanlize spermicide...."
----Dr. Bob

Rights don't derive from possession of homo sapien cells, they derive from the mind.

Rights don't derive from possession of homo sapien cells, they derive from the mind.

(IC) or from the Soul.

"Actually, to me, it doesn't just 'ban' abortion, it also allows for childern not to be killed for any reason (except for a crime), and that any kid who kills or attack any another kid (or adult as well) get punished in the same way as an adult would, even up to capital punishment.

Way to go, Pro-Life!

The whole 'ban' abortion should just be shelved (ALC was made to protect people from banning abortion, better to have this than to be forced to run murder camps for kids, oh god no!) and focus on the other parts, but I bet it just duplicates the Childern Protection Act as well. Still, nice idea on the whole "Indivudals in Human Development", but there is a high proportion of members in the NSUN who are NOT human (and the goal of the UN is to Help the world, not just humans), so sorry. This would also crimanlize spermicide...."
----Dr. Bob

This calls for equal punishment under the law. If countries have laws that treat minors differently then ,by all means they should treat those minors as it says in the law. And just becuase your country has the death sentence for capital offense and apparently runs death camps, doesn't mean everyone else's done- there are some human countries in the UN. I am not for dictating laws, only a resolution that says a person must be tried for a crime.

And no it would not criminalize spermicide. Spermicide is not undergoing human development. If you monitor a sperm it in no way undergoes an ongoing development of human qualities ,processes or maintance of human biological processes or the development there of. Same goes for the egg. The natural course for both those objects is to remain the same. Put them together you have a new natural course - what I call Human Developement, and to stop.

I think you have a very lazy argument really.
Rights don't derive from possession of homo sapien cells, they derive from the mind.

so Individuals who do not have minds like us shouldn't be given the same rights as us? mentally handicapped person's, and the like. You may argue well they're minds don't work in the same capacity but they are still minds. I'd just like to raise my hand to say - So do Cows - and I just ate one for lunch.

Solensina Tadefta, head of the Safalran UN Delegation, writes:

Firstly I affirm that an embryo and a fetus are both undergoing human development.Human development being the development or maintenance of biological qualities and processes unique to the Human animal.
Which biological processes happening in a fœtus do you regard as unique to humans?

I would like to point out that your argument is completely the opposite of what is happening when we discuss human development. For the chair to become a bench you would have to make "arbitrarily small changes" , you'd have to go against the natural path of that chair to continue to be a chair, and ulter it to now be a bench. With an embreyo and fetus, we would have to go against the natural path of that embreyo/fetus to become a recognizable human, and alter it to become a useless sack of amniotic fluid/waste. So I don't think your example applies.
You argument rests on the definition of natural. Is a spider's web natural? Then what about bird nests? Then what about the tools made by chimpanzees? Then what about a carpenter modifying a chair? The attempt to draw a line between 'natural' and 'artificial' is just another instance of the continuum being arbitrarily partitioned.

I would like to continue to state that a point by definition has the equivalent value/size as every other point ever in existence. A point has no volume or mass, it is merely a point on something else, in geometry that something else is a 2-d or 3-d plane. It is where that point is located that defines the point, and in Human Development any one phase(point) in our life should be valued the same as every other phase simply because of the fact that we are part of humanity.
I think we should clarify: by 'point' we refer to a state in a particular state space. Given two states we can find a state between them, and then states between this new state and the previous states, and so on ad infinitum. Permit us to ask a question relevant to your proposals: at what specific point does human life begin, and at what specific point does it end?

Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Holy Empire of Imota
Office of the Ambassador to the United Nations

It is the official position of the administration of Her Imperial Majesty Empress Lania I that while the right to obtain an abortion for cases of rape, incest, severe fetal abnormality or where the continuation of the pregnancy poses severe medical risk to the mother may not be denied or infringed upon by the provinces, all other legislation on abortion shall be the right and responsibility of the provinces exclusively. We feel that this so-called "Basic Rights for Individuals in Human Developement" resolution (BRIHD) would infringe upon our sovereignity as a state and deny us the right to form our own policy on abortion. Despite the lofty title, we feel that BRIHD is nothing more than a cowardly stealth attack on the Abortion Legality Convention (ALC).

The Holy Empire of Imota emphatically OPPOSES this resolution, and encourages all nations to do so as well.

Burgen Alsonis, Ambassador to the United Nations
Weinna Gellendell, Minister of Foreign Affairs
Blaine Crullen, Acting Prime Minister
Lania I, Empress

so Individuals who do not have minds like us shouldn't be given the same rights as us? mentally handicapped person's, and the like. You may argue well they're minds don't work in the same capacity but they are still minds. I'd just like to raise my hand to say - So do Cows - and I just ate one for lunch.

The relevant aspect to the rights derived from the mind is the capacity to reason, which means to volitionally form and operate upon concepts. One can be mentally "handicapped" and still have this capacity, in whatever rudimentary form. A cow does not, neither does a fetus.

This calls for equal punishment under the law. If countries have laws that treat minors differently then ,by all means they should treat those minors as it says in the law. And just becuase your country has the death sentence for capital offense and apparently runs death camps, doesn't mean everyone else's done- there are some human countries in the UN. I am not for dictating laws, only a resolution that says a person must be tried for a crime.

Wait, wait, wait! Satire is so forgotten a trend.

What I mean is, the ALC was made to protect your nation's right to ban abortion. If the ALC is repealed, then what would happen is that liberal nations will pass a bill legalizing abortion in ALL nations. Even yours. Heck, we may even have a commitee that will come down to your nation and ensure that you grant your citizens a right to abort.

That what I mean. Instead of saying I ran death camps, I say that you would be forced to run death camps (aka, the abortion clinics) because of the ALC's repeal. That's why I discourage you from getting rid of ALC. It's the only thing that is keeping the NSUN sane, breaking the cease-fire can lead to severe consquences for this society.

It can happen. During the early days of the NSUN, there was a bill passed that legalized Euthanisa. It got repealed years later, but the fact that it was on the book "the right to die" surely is a warning sign for what is to come, when you got a liberal and a pen.

And to make clear, my nation doesn't have the death sentence (it's too inhumane), and in fact, would be VERY interested in supporting such a resolution because, assuming we get around Fair Sentencing Act, it would be able to ban all death sentences EXCEPT that of murder (which would be a great compromise...and then we would secretly walk around and ban murder in a seperate resolution).

Anyway, your other laws (except that of abortion) is a dupe of the Child Protection Act (http://www.safalra.com/other/nationstates/un-resolution-browser/?resolution=25), and the Fair Sentencing Act (http://www.safalra.com/other/nationstates/un-resolution-browser/?resolution=180) that allows for the death penatly REQUIRES "fair sentencing" so I think that, well, it's already covered.

And no it would not criminalize spermicide. Spermicide is not undergoing human development. If you monitor a sperm it in no way undergoes an ongoing development of human qualities ,processes or maintance of human biological processes or the development there of. Same goes for the egg. The natural course for both those objects is to remain the same. Put them together you have a new natural course - what I call Human Developement, and to stop.

Huh. Okay then. My bad then.

I think you have a very lazy argument really.

The argument isn't lazy. Just experienced. The fact that you have to explain your viewpoint to a semi-hostile audience proves some concern, in that people who are already against your viewpoint won't change their viewpoint, and we will have to debate rather than start writing a resolution that can solve the issue at hand. We should draft resolutions that shy away from endless debate for endless debate's sake (what's to say that as soon as we pass this resolution, it doesn't get instant-repealed?), and instead, try to solve the world's problems. People are dying every single day, not just from abortion, but from health care, crime, terrorism, nukes, warfare, invisible tree people, Jones, whatever. Let deal with those problems which both the left and the right can agree are problems rather than reopen old wounds.

In the end, most of the stuff you have requested has been dealt with in previous resolutions, except for the part about abortion, but, well, you did somewhat convince me that abortion might be wrong. Education, not mandates, is the way to change people's minds, as well as access to birth control, such as spermicide, to decrease potential abortions. Though I don't suggest such education continues in the NSUN, I do think an education program throughout the world should be useful, and will convince more and more people of your just cause.

That being said. I do hope that you still stay in the NSUN, and I hope you keep yourself steeled and not lose your optimism, but keep some cold-headed realism as well.

-----Dr. Bob

The biggest thing here for us is the term HUMAN in it.. We feel it simply needs to say individual developement not HUMAN as that directs it to one race and the UN is comprised of many races other than HUMAN. Thus must look to better life for all membership not just the HUMAN membership...

Also on reading this again we feel it is truely an effort to change the rules on abortion in the UN.. and we find the current resoltion is solution enough on that subject as it allows nations to decided their course of action on abortion not have the UN mandate it one way or other.

Sir Grazza NoSensa,
Minister of Affairs Cavirrian Council of Thought,
Chief Justice Cavirrian Alien Claims Court

If not but for a very specific set of circumstances, a human embryo will not become a human. You assume that for embryonic development to occur no work must be done, I would counter that very real work is done.

Define "natural" or even "nature" for us though.