NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: I'm welcome to hearing any opinions, I've checked the resolutions, there doesn't seem to be anything like this covered, so I'm hoping to pass this through. This is my first time posting a resolution, or even trying to get it through quorum, so I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what I'm doing, nor do I have any idea for which catagory this should be under, probably either human rights or social welfare though...Having said all this, I now present the proposal for your vetting pleasure.

End Corruption in Government Act

Catagory:Social Welfare
Strength:Significant
Proposed by: Ki Baratan

Acknowledging that government provides vital services to the citizens it serves

Acknowledging that citizens of any sovereign nation are free to elect whom they wish

Noting with disappointment that corruption within government remains chronic

Implores the member nations of these United Nations to Enact the Following:

A) Creation of a non-partisan council
Or
B) Increase the powers of the Federal Judiciary
Whose primary function is to reduce, and eliminate government corruption, and to prosecute lawmakers who abuse their powers in government.

Corruption, for the purpose of this act, will be defined as the following:

1) Circumvention or transgression of the law to accept funds, material gifts, or personal favors in exchange for political favors
2) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence members of government within a nation
3) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to prevent discussion of politics within groups of layman citizens.
4) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence the legislative process of another sovereign nation.
5) Abuse of position of trust, caused by
5a) intentional spoilage of information
5b) premeditated use of position to weaken the state or aid a foreign power in the annexation of one’s nation.

Thats odd for you to Submit that to the UN, as The Altlands Intelligence Agency found that:

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=ki_baratan

1: Your postmen are regularly arrested delivering mail.
2: You have an insanely high amount of police officers.
3: Corporations have been donating strangely Huge amounts of money to your governments politicians.
4: Your nations Income Tax is 100 Percent.

Now I'm sure many other nations would agree with The Glorious Leader of Altlands that all of these would breach your so called 'resolution'. I suggest your nation gets its priorities straight before thinking of a resolution that contradicts your nation as a whole.

-Altlands Intelligence Agency

The only absolute way to get rid of corruption in government is to get rid of government altogether.

OOC: Don't worry, Ki Baratan, there are some people here who will try to offer useful suggestions rather than needless pissantry.

IC:
Either/or constructions should generally be avoided in proposals. Because the only decision-making process in the UN is General Assembly votes, you can't really do as you have in saying 'do A or B': you need to say which you want doing. Furthermore, the UN has no 'Federal Judiciary' and there is no guarantee that individual nations do either, so I think it is a mistake to refer to them. Also, one of the areas that the ICPIN (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=210) deals with is corruption, so you could use them instead of setting up a new agency.

As for the definitions, I have some problems:
- 1) surely excuses states whose laws permit such activities;
- 3) should probably refer to 'persons', because citizenship is not necessarily universal;
- 5 b) seems more an issue of outright treason.

Also, this would seem to ban lobbying. Not that we're necessarily going to complain about that...

-- Samantha Benson
Department of UN Affairs
The Democratic States of Quintessence of Dust

OOC: Don't worry, Ki Baratan, there are some people here who will try to offer useful suggestions rather than needless pissantry.

IC:
Either/or constructions should generally be avoided in proposals. Because the only decision-making process in the UN is General Assembly votes, you can't really do as you have in saying 'do A or B': you need to say which you want doing. Furthermore, the UN has no 'Federal Judiciary' and there is no guarantee that individual nations do either, so I think it is a mistake to refer to them. Also, one of the areas that the ICPIN (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=210) deals with is corruption, so you could use them instead of setting up a new agency.

As for the definitions, I have some problems:
- 1) surely excuses states whose laws permit such activities;
- 3) should probably refer to 'persons', because citizenship is not necessarily universal;
- 5 b) seems more an issue of outright treason.

Also, this would seem to ban lobbying. Not that we're necessarily going to complain about that...

-- Samantha Benson
Department of UN Affairs
The Democratic States of Quintessence of Dust

Having now re-read the fine print of the ICPIN resolution, I do understand why its been suggested as the organization to oversee international government oversight. My concern with the ICPIN, if I've understood their powers under the resolution properly, would only allow them to inform the police forces of the offending country. The proposal to use that organization to maintain government oversight is a good one though, so I'll add it to the second draft. In the face of evidence nothing that and/or resolutions tend to create loopholes, the second draft will specifically call for an elected, non-partisan council to follow through on ICPIN information.
Finally, a short message to the people of Altlands. I find it rather ironic that a nation who is announced internationally as having an onmipresent, corrupt government, that supports the majority of its economy on gambling, and kidnaps those who don't cheer their nation loud enough has ANY right to criticize my nation, much less anyone elses. Might I suggest leaving that glass house of yours before opening up another attack?
~Jermaine Schuck Ki Baratan ambassador to the UN

In addition to Ms Benson's analysis, we would offer a few small observations of our own.

Acknowledging that citizens of any sovereign nation are free to elect whom they wish
Regrettably this democrocentric statement is untrue; the UN contains a number of sovereign member nations which are oligarchies or tyrannies, the citizens of which are not free to elect anyone. Even some democratic states may limit those eligible for office. In Gobbannium, for instance, only members of the royal family can stand for election to the true executive posts of government. It is highly likely that this statement would deter many otherwise nations otherwise open to the idea of reducing corruption from supporting this proposal, and we recommend its deletion in future drafts.

A) Creation of a non-partisan council
Or
B) Increase the powers of the Federal Judiciary
Whose primary function is to reduce, and eliminate government corruption, and to prosecute lawmakers who abuse their powers in government.
Bearing in mind the author's comments above, we would ask for a little more clarification of the nature of the council. Our initial assumption, possibly misled by the non-existence of an international judiciary, was that the council was to be internal to each member nation (i.e. that each would create its own non-partisan overseers) rather than an international panel. A few word of explanation of the intended manner of functioning of the council would be greatly appreciated on our part.

5b) premeditated use of position to weaken the state or aid a foreign power in the annexation of one’s nation.We have a special rope and tree for officials found doing this...

B) Increase the powers of the Federal Judiciary
Whose primary function is to reduce, and eliminate government corruption, and to prosecute lawmakers who abuse their powers in government.We see no change in many nations as they only have one branch of government... who is judge, jury, and hangman. So this gives nations the choice a council OR boost the powers of those already in control. OH and that group often has reduced and eliminated it... by making them the only ones doing it and it being legal... Any group in power controls those in the group or that group will fail so yes prosecute any who act against the whole.. Treason in any manner lets one here enjoy swinging from a tall tree with a good rope.

Bearing in mind the author's comments above, we would ask for a little more clarification of the nature of the council. Our initial assumption, possibly misled by the non-existence of an international judiciary, was that the council was to be internal to each member nation (i.e. that each would create its own non-partisan overseers) rather than an international panel. A few word of explanation of the intended manner of functioning of the council would be greatly appreciated on our part.

My apologies for the vagueness of this particular part of the proposal; it would not be an international panel, it would be internal to each member nation. Such an international panel has already been created, as Ms. Benson pointed out. This internal council would act on information gathered by the ICPIN and from its own investigations, as ICPIN does not have the power to make arrests on its own.
The council of Ki Baratan would like to note at this time that the provisions calling for the strengthening of the judiciary of a nation instead of an elected, non-partisan council, shall be struck out in the final version of the bill. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on the final bill, which is currently being filibustered by a coalition of opposition and government members who debate small details.

Finally, a short message to the people of Altlands. I find it rather ironic that a nation who is announced internationally as having an onmipresent, corrupt government, that supports the majority of its economy on gambling, and kidnaps those who don't cheer their nation loud enough has ANY right to criticize my nation, much less anyone elses. Might I suggest leaving that glass house of yours before opening up another attack?
~Jermaine Schuck Ki Baratan ambassador to the UN

I'm not saying that the Altlands are better then your nation or government, or any other nations for that matter, but if that resolution was enacted at this time, you too would be breaking your own rules. Our Government is based on a like it, or leave it policy that grants it's citizenry extensive civil rights as long as they do not get too involved with it's nations Governmental Affairs.

Good luck getting rid of those 14 year olds trying to ruin your private sector.
-AIC

I'm not saying that the Altlands are better then your nation or government, or any other nations for that matter, but if that resolution was enacted at this time, you too would be breaking your own rules. Our Government is based on a like it, or leave it policy that grants it's citizenry extensive civil rights as long as they do not get too involved with it's nations Governmental Affairs.

Good luck getting rid of those 14 year olds trying to ruin your private sector.
-AIC

I would like to point out at this time, though its obviously quite late for me to do so, that arresting people caught in corrupt acts would seem to be a step in fixing the problem. So, I fail to see a large conflict of interest here with my government and my legislation. As for my 14 year old merchant class, I don't have to destroy them, I just have to wait for them to be old enough to file income tax statement, that'll destroy them for me.

I would like to point out at this time, though its obviously quite late for me to do so, that arresting people caught in corrupt acts would seem to be a step in fixing the problem. So, I fail to see a large conflict of interest here with my government and my legislation. As for my 14 year old merchant class, I don't have to destroy them, I just have to wait for them to be old enough to file income tax statement, that'll destroy them for me.

Alright, but that still doesn't explain those Corperations 'donating' money to its favored politicians.

(OOC: Altlands, it's possible that the nation of Ki Baratan has strict laws covering transparency in corporate political donations. It's also possible that the player of the nation chooses to ignore features of the nation's official UN description, offering such explanations as, "The UN Gnomes were drunk at the time." So it's best to find out first how the player plays the nation.)

IC: I'd question the "significant" strength of this, given that all it does is "implore" nations to enact laws. It doesn't in any way oblige them to do it.

Also, the definitions:



Corruption, for the purpose of this act, will be defined as the following:

2) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence members of government within a nation

As Ms Benson has pointed out, this would seem to ban lobbying. Also newspaper editorials, political advertising, religious exhortation, party politics, unionism ... you get my drift here?

3) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to prevent discussion of politics within groups of layman citizens.

But it's okay to use any of those strengths to prevent discussion of politics among non-layman groups? Which could include, depending on the definition of "layman", groups of clergy, medical professionals, political scientists ... same drift.

4) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence the legislative process of another sovereign nation.
Time to recall our entire diplomatic corps, eh? (Our military couldn't influence a kindergarten.)

I think your first definition, with its wording about "circumvention or transgression of the law", is heading in the right direction, though I'd prefer to see it a bit more specific about whose law (eg, if the corruption is about illegal entry of immigrants, and the immigrants are all refugees from a single country, they may not be transgressing their own state's laws, or the UN's either; do you mean "national law"?)

There does seem to be an emphasis in the definitions on successful corruption, rather than attempted corruption. If, for example, an individual solicited a bribe from Ardchoille, we would, of course, nobly refuse to pay it and report the individual to their authorities. But would this legislation encourage their nation to charge them with a crime?

Most of these are minor nitpicks that could be eliminated by changing the wording. I think the word "strength" is misleading. What you seem to me to be getting at is corrupt use of legitimate strength. Coercion, perhaps?

-- William Edward Kelly, ArdchoilleaNS.

it's possible that the nation of Ki Baratan has strict laws covering transparency in corporate political donations. It's also possible that the player of the nation chooses to ignore features of the nation's official UN descriptionIt's also possible that they view corporations as citizens, and thus allow them to donate to politicians of their choice, just like anyone else.

It's also possible that they view corporations as citizens, and thus allow them to donate to politicians of their choice, just like anyone else.

Is there no end to your ebil corporatism?

Is there no end to your ebil corporatism?
Steady on. If you view a corporation as a person, you can try it for manslaughter.

This bill shifts corruption of government into corruption of the U.N. There is no such thing as a council that will not have a bias towards their own nation first. This allows the U.N. total control of all governments. I do not want one political body controlling every country. I would vote against this proposal.

This bill shifts corruption of government into corruption of the U.N. There is no such thing as a council that will not have a bias towards their own nation first. This allows the U.N. total control of all governments. I do not want one political body controlling every country. I would vote against this proposal.

This has already been dealt with in earlier posts, EACH nation would elect its own council to oversee its own affairs, while receiving evidence from its own investigations and from the ICPIN. I point out that the words "total control" of any government is impossible, based on the guidelines of the law being proposed here.

That and UN Councils are not run by member nations.


Thats what the Knomes are for.

The council of Ki Baratan would like to note at this time that the provisions calling for the strengthening of the judiciary of a nation instead of an elected, non-partisan council, shall be struck out in the final version of the bill. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on the final bill, which is currently being filibustered by a coalition of opposition and government members who debate small details.

So you take it out but what in those nations there are no elected officials let alone a special council? Do nations have to have one just for this special council. As for creating another committee/council in the UN we feel we have to many of these already; smelling up the lower levels using the best office space of the UN building and draining all the good food and wine for themselves.


We await the final draft before forming out final views on this issue.

Restleslie Inadreamora.
Cavirrian Minister of Studies

So you take it out but what in those nations there are no elected officials let alone a special council? Do nations have to have one just for this special council. As for creating another committee/council in the UN we feel we have to many of these already; smelling up the lower levels using the best office space of the UN building and draining all the good food and wine for themselves.


We await the final draft before forming out final views on this issue.

Restleslie Inadreamora.
Cavirrian Minister of Studies

"As I have stated before, Mrs. Inadreamora, the UN Knomes are the ones who are seated on any councils and committees that are created by past NSUN Resolutions. There is no one person from any member nation on any of these Councils and/or Committees, therefore your attempt at sympathy votes is misguided."

There is no one person from any member nation on any of these Councils and/or Committees, therefore your attempt at sympathy votes is misguided.
and you missed this As for creating another committee/council in the UN we feel we have to many of these already; smelling up the lower levels using the best office space of the UN building and draining all the good food and wine for themselves.

We feel there is no need for any more of these they waste funds and time doing little but draining UN resources that need to be directed to other issues that need more attention and solutions.

We would hope that there are no votes for this as we find it lacks and the clause we noted B) Increase the powers of the Federal Judiciaryhas not been removed as was said it would be by the originator of the proposal. The council of Ki Baratan would like to note at this time that the provisions calling for the strengthening of the judiciary of a nation instead of an elected, non-partisan council, shall be struck out in the final version of the bill. As that part is far to great a threat to nations than any other part of it. As it calls for increasing government powers which in many nations is the party that is corupt and this is intended to stop or limit.

And I refuse to shave my legs, wear a dress, and put on lipstick for you to be right in calling me Mrs. Inadreamora It's either General Sir or Doctor or Minister... but Mrs is an insult to us.

Restleslie Inadreamora, GEN.DRG
Cavirrian Minister of Studies

'But Sir, they have no way of knowing who you are, and you did look great dressed up during the YaYa Festival as a yayagal... so don't get upset now they know'

Pickles LeMushan, GEN,ELD
Cavirrian Minister of Feasts,
Elder House of LeMushan

OOC: Sorry for the delay, I've been rather busy with school of all things, so here's the final draft for discussion before proposal.

End Corruption in Government Act

Catagory: Social Justice
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Ki Baratan

Acknowledging that government provides vital services to the citizens it serves

Noting with disappointment that corruption within government remains chronic

Requires the member nations of these United Nations to Enact the Following:

Creation of a non-partisan council within each member nation
Whose primary function is to, acting on advice of the ICPIN, reduce, and eliminate government corruption, and to prosecute lawmakers who abuse their powers in government.

Corruption, for the purpose of this act, will be defined as the following:

1) Circumvention or transgression of the law to accept funds, material gifts, or personal favors in exchange for political favors
2) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence members of government within a nation
3) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to prevent discussion of politics within groups of persons within a nation.
4) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence the legislative process of another sovereign nation.
5) Abuse of position of trust, caused by intentional spoilage of information.

Merged. One thread is sufficient.

Edit: I fail to see how this is Social Justice.

"2) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence members of government within a nation"

I'm sorry but I don't get it. :confused:

What do you mean ?

In a democracy for example the parliament uses all his "political strength" to influence the government, but this is the role of the parliament itself.....

In many democratic nations the people voted to elect the members of parliament, not the president or the premier, in my country for example the Parliament appoints the prime minister and it may even revoke the mandate through a vote of dismissing.

And the condemn of the use of military forces to influence members of government will means also the condemn of any form of revolution... but I fail to see how this is related to corruption.

- Gloria di Proton, UN Ambassador of the Federation of Lucanian Shires

"2) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence members of government within a nation"

I'm sorry but I don't get it. :confused:

What do you mean ?

In a democracy for example the parliament uses all his "political strength" to influence the government, but this is the role of the parliament itself.....

In many democratic nations the people voted to elect the members of parliament, not the president or the premier, in my country for example the Parliament appoints the prime minister and it may even revoke the mandate through a vote of dismissing.

And the condemn of the use of military forces to influence members of government will means also the condemn of any form of revolution... but I fail to see how this is related to corruption.

- Gloria di Proton, UN Ambassador of the Federation of Lucanian Shires

The definition used here is to describe a politician using his personal wealth to bribe another official, or using the strength of his/her position within an internal council to put pressure on junior members to follow his/her beliefs.
To Master Hack, my sincerest apologies, I must not have seen my own thread, 'twas midnight as I posted and my eyes stopped functioning hours before.

This has already been dealt with in earlier posts, EACH nation would elect its own council to oversee its own affairs, while receiving evidence from its own investigations and from the ICPIN. I point out that the words "total control" of any government is impossible, based on the guidelines of the law being proposed here.

If the Government is corrupt itself though, I don't think said Nation electing its own council to oversee affairs would make any difference.

We note that this draft has almost entirely ignored the observations of the Ardchoillean delegation, to its considerable detriment.

Eh, I'm bored, so I'll help.

Social Justice doesn't really do seem to fit, and you will need to fit your resolution to the cateogry rather than the other way around. That being said, I'd rather you switch it over to "Furtherment of Democracy", because by making nations less corrupt, you are making them more democratic and open to change.

Best to abandon your idea of creating an internal commitee that would report to the bigger commitee of ICPIN. The internal commitees would not only be corrupt, they would do nothing as they are dependant on the ICPIN. If you want to, have the ICPIN control each Commitee...or some such.

You are going to need to clarify your definitions to ensure that the ICPIN doesn't charge people for corruption when it is unneeded. Since we are going to be relying on an international commitee, we have to be careful.

Yes...it is true that the ICPIN won't be swayed by national governments, but they WILL be swayed by gnomes, and I know that not many governments would like to lose control of their nation to some gnome. That being said, you're best off trying to argue otherwise...

Here's a possible revision, but for the most part, um, don't take all of it. It just sounds easy for me to just tinker with the draft itself:

Acknowledging that government provides vital services to the citizens it serves

Noting with disappointment that corruption within government remains chronic

Defines "corruption" as "any attemptted use of monetary, military, or political strength to illegally influence, control, or corece members of a government of any nation", and "bribery" as "any attempt at the circumvention or transgression of the law to accept funds, material gifts, or personal favors in exchange for political favors" for the purpose of this act,

Requires the member nations of these United Nations to establish a non-partisan council within each member nation that is affilated with the ICPIN.

Mandates that the primary purpose of the non-partisan councils primary function is to, acting on advice of the ICPIN, reduce, and eliminate government corruption and bribery.

Decrees that the government must prosecute all people who are found guilty of corruption and bribery by the ICPIN and the non-partisan councils.

Clause 2 and 4 of the original definition of Corruption has been consialted together as the definition of corruption, and Clause 1 of Corruption has been taken to mean Bribery instead. Clause 5 seems to refer to "leaking", but I don't know how to best add that in...remember this is all suggestions.

I also allow the government to go and punish corrupt people rather than just the non-partisan councils, rather than go and

I just realized that this may not exactly be read, but oh well...

Corruption is an absolute NECESSITY to run an effective government. You think I lie?

Look at the dictatorship...plots to kill, threats, strongarms. Now look at democracy. Corruption lives there fat and happy under the guise of influence peddling, lobbyists, bribery, blackmail, etc. Need I go on?

It is a simple fact that nothing would ever get done in any machinery of government without the grease of corruption to move the wheels inside of it.

The Oppressed Peoples of Moe-zambique graciously asks you to remove this blasphemous proclamation.

Moe, corruption usually can help deal with corruption, true.

But what if society has no more corruption?

People can now finally do stuff. And they don't have to pay the expensive bribes and such. Besides, if society is corrupt, then only the person with the most money can buy the government. What if that person with the most money wants to destroy society as you know it? Better to let only those who actually cares about the nation run the government (note I mean care about the nation, that could mean democracy or dictatorship, it doesn't matter), rather than letting those who run the government be those with the most power who doesn't have the nation's best interest at heart.

---Dr. Bob.

Let's all try and be realistics here shall we? What if we had no corruption? Well then there would be no need for a UN at all!

But as you MUST acknowledge, that will never, ever happen. No matter how wonderful we all have it, there will ALWAYS be someone who wants to take more than what is due them. And in order to quash these peoples, there must be an equally opposing force of corruption.

Corruption fights corruption of a higher degree. If only one corrupt factions existed, then they would be able to almost immediately take absolute total control with no one to stop them.

So called "Law enforcement" is a laughable concept if you were about to suggest that a single corruption would be stopped thusly. Because only in your fantasy world would this happen. Law enforcement has a higher rate of corruption than almost any other faction of government.

The Oppressed Peoples of Moe-zambique beg of you to understand how important corruption is in any government. We thanks yous.

Let's all try and be realistics here shall we? What if we had no corruption? Well then there would be no need for a UN at all!
I'm not really sure I follow. How does removing corruption render the UN pointless? The UN has acted on a great many things with only very limited connection with corruption, if any.
~Hari Desana

Bah, perhaps I am spoke a small bit too much when saying there woulds be no need to have the UN. But at the very least, there would be fewer issues to deal with!

The Oppressed Peoples of Moe-zambique begs your indulgence.

"If you really like corruption, you'd do best to legalize it in your nation then, and therefore, have any draft that does deal with corruption won't be able to affect your nation. Better to regulate stuff than ban it outright...

But for those many other nations that hate corruption, this resolution would serve an important use."
---Dr. Bob

Creation of a non-partisan council within each member nation
Whose primary function is to, acting on advice of the ICPIN, reduce, and eliminate government corruption, and to prosecute lawmakers who abuse their powers in government.

"We have a Council of Elders here who make our laws and set up those forces to enforce them as well as appoints those who try criminals who break them. We do not need any council to do their duties. Nor do we need an outside agency coming in to tell us how to govern our nation. However we will take any advice as long as that is all it is... ADVICE... not demands... or mandates...."

George Henry DoMontal,
Chief Elder of Cavirra,
Royal Judge Cavirrian Court of Justice

"Sir, As a member of the Elders you will be the one to appoint any members on this council and also set up what they can and can't do.. as with any advice they may get from outside. As this proposal sets no rules for establishment of the council just it will be."

Toccona Allabrave,
First Assistant Clerk
Cavirrian Court of Justice


"Not by UN rules as it will be made up of outsiders.. and we will not have outsiders coming in and running things here. We already have to many outsiders here that are a burden on our social systems for citizens and not welfare systems for the world."

George Henry DoMontal,
Chief Elder of Cavirra,
Royal Judge Cavirrian Court of Justice

I think some of your definitions are off kilter.


2) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence members of government within a nation

How else do you influence members of government? Is it corruption for a group of like minded citizens donating to lobby a senator to get then to agree to their position? Throwing political weight around is the basis of some of our governments.

3) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to prevent discussion of politics within groups of persons within a nation.

Smells like free speech not corruption.

4) Use of monetary, military, or political strength to influence the legislative process of another sovereign nation.

So if my government says to government XYZ "Stop passing laws saying you can feed Anthrax to your babies to see what color they turn or we'll place a trade embargo on you." - we're the corrupt ones?

Nigel Youlkin
USP UN Ambassador