NationStates Jolt Archive

(Ambassador Douglas Smith makes his first formal address to the UN.)

Friends, as all of you know, an unfortunate event occurred this week. A proposal - which I shall not dignify by naming - passed and became an official resolution, despite blatantly running afoul of the rules and regulations of this esteemed body.

Yes, ths resolution is sure to be soon repealed, but that is of little importance. Indeed, the fact that the repeal will be written into the books means that mention will be made of this illegal resolution, thus giving it more attention in the official UN records than it deserves. Worst of all, the repeal cannot even state the main reason for its existence - the fact that the resolution is blatantly illegal! So, this is a messy situation, no matter how we slice it.

My reason for speaking today is to start a dialogue that will hopefully lead to a way that such a series of events will never be repeated.

Because, let's face it, an illegal resolution should never go through the voting process, and certainly should not ever be implemented! But this one did, and we member nations and our fearless leaders were powerless to stop it, hamstrung by our own policies.

So how can we prevent this from happening again? I have a few possible methods in mind:

Option 1: A UN resolution that declares that the illegality of a resolution is just cause for its repeal. The legality of this would be questionable, but if done correctly I think it could be done. And it would be probably the neatest way to do things. Of course, there would need to be a clause stating that it would only apply to future resolutions, not past ones.

Option 2: A tweak in game mechanics somehow that would allow an illegal proposal to be deleted even after it has gotten support. The lack of this ability (plus the presence of the UN Drones) is what got the resolution passed this week. But if an illegal proposal can be deleted before it gets support, why not after? Just because some regional delegates lent suppoort to the proposal doesn't make it legal. (And while we're at it, should disciplinary action be imposed on regional delegates who ignore the illegality of a proposal and vote to advance it?)

I don't know what the final solution will be - I'm hoping that one of you will put forth a solution that's better than mine and works just as well. But I do know this - the solution will not be "lighten up". When we as a body are unable to enforce our own rules, that is a serious issue.

So let's get on it! How are we going to fix this?

Why don't people just not vote for stupid resolutions. Proposals like this shouldn't even make it to a vote. Its called common sense people. C-O-M-M-O-N S-E-N-S-E!

To our friend from The Beatus:

The lack of this ability (plus the presence of the UN Drones) is what got the resolution passed this week.

Unfortunately, most UN members don't even read this board, and some don't even read the resolutions. So it isn't enough to preach common sense on this one.

Well maybe if they weren't idiots they would. If your going to vote, read the resolution, otherwise, why are you even voting? Your wasting your time even voting. Do people have nothing better to do?

Unfortunately, as is shown in a multitude of cases, proposals, and other matters that are far too numerous to list here in a reasonable amount of time, "common sense" as you call it is many times the last thing on the average person (or nation)'s mind.

What this Armed Republic sees as illegal may not come into alignment with what your sovereign nation deems illegal. The previously unnamed resolution was given a strong Nay! from this nation, but uninformed political leaders are often swayed by mere flattery, fluff, and the temptations of unsolicited rest. Should you submit a proposal and have it passed by the UN, and you would have no support from this sovereign nation, said unnamed resolution would still require due process for official repeal by means of ex-post-facto, thereby defeating half of the purpose of your proposal.

The destruction of illegal proposals before they become issues, while not perfect by any means, is still supplemented by a highly effective repeal system. Granting the power to destroy established proposals that affect every nation in this sovereign assembly to a select few, no matter how trustworthy, is something that I am not comfortable with and will not endorse.

The Supreme Commander of Hikari No Tenshi

(ooc: Yeah, what Scotch said. Not everyone reads the boards, and even fewer read up on the resolutions. I even changed my vote from FOR to AGAINST once I read the topic and everything that was wrong with it. Chalk one up to a first-time vote.)

People should have the common sense not to submit stupid proposals in the first place. They may as well walk around with holding a sign saying, "I'm an idiot and I should learn to shut my mouth." I mean, so of the things people submit as proposals are just plain idiotic. There are so many more important topics to discuss, but no we vote on whether to give some guy his own holiday. I don't think its even the UN's job to declare holidays.

Here's an idea ... There are 78,494 nations
There are 20,934 member nations
There are 1,877 Regional Delegates
At least 113 of those Delegates voted to Approve
There are dozens of UN Forum regulars who also routinely skim the proposal queueHad just one of the above bothered to REPORT THIS IDIOTIC PROPOSAL on the Getting Help Page, any active game moderator could have removed it. And would have.


Honest to God, why are folks all in a twit about "the process failing"? YOU have the power to prevent bad proposals. The mechanism has been in place ever since mods were first introduced to the game (sometime in 2003, I believe). Instead of bitching about the two mods who also occasionaly visit the UN forum, why not take advantage of the other 41,868 eyes belonging to the nations that are at risk from letting dumb stuff through.

OOC

Fris, I know you're annoyed at this. Hell, I'm pretty annoyed too, and I haven't had egg rather thoroughly smeared over my face due to actions beyond my control. All the same, this was reported (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13108598&postcount=5244) in the customary place, and even commented on by others. There were a whole slew of things that contributed to this piece of trash getting through -- the astonishing speed of it reaching quorum, the queue being empty, moderators having lives like real people (whoever these real people are), the game code being written in a way to make "at vote" status nigh-untouchable -- but lack of reporting wasn't one of them.

I am not bitching about or at you, or Hack, or any moderator for that matter. This one slipped through our usual collective practices, that's all. It's thrown up a few issues about those practices, whether we should change them, or whether someone who actually knows how it works should consider poking the game code into providing more support for UN mods in the face of fast-turnaround proposals. What's practical in all this is worth chewing over -- do you really want every illegal proposal in the queue reported on the Getting Help Page, for example, or would that be too annoying for words in the end? -- but playing the blame game doesn't help anyone.

IC

We fear that the representative of The Beatus is under the misapprehension that common sense is in any way common. Most studies, from trivial observation to full sociological exercises, have concluded that it is in fact quite rare.

We know that common sense is very, very rare in world, but had hoped they had realized they should start teaching it at schools.

All the same, this was reported (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13108598&postcount=5244) in the customary place, and even commented on by others.

If something obviously illegal is in the queue and hasn't been acted upon, reporting it via the GHP will summon the non-UN mods as opposed to the two or so who regularly read the illegal proposal thread. Many hands make broth lighter, and all.

If something obviously illegal is in the queue and hasn't been acted upon, reporting it via the GHP will summon the non-UN mods as opposed to the two or so who regularly read the illegal proposal thread. Many hands make broth lighter, and all.

True, but a couple of posts later a mod does comment on its illegality, so there was no reason to make that presumption. It happens that said mod was caught on the hop by the speed the damn thing made quorum as much as the rest of us were. It is seriously worth considering whether the game code could provide better support under these circumstances; if the answer's no, then it's no, but the question is still worth asking.

Option 1: A UN resolution that declares that the illegality of a resolution is just cause for its repeal.Certainly not. I'm not going to throw the rules away to deal with something that violates the rules.

The legality of this would be questionable, but if done correctly I think it could be done.Not questionable in the slightest. It would be a gross metagaming violation: not only does it reference the rules (which exist "above" the game), but it changes those rules for future Resolutions. It would be like trying to pass a Resolution that states it's now okay for the UN to pass a UN Army law.

Option 2: A tweak in game mechanics somehow that would allow an illegal proposal to be deleted even after it has gotten support.Sadly, this opens the doors for possible abuse. The first time a Proposal that is At Vote is deleted, the howling by the offended party(ies) will be deafening. This is the level of editing that belongs where it is: in the hands of the Administrators. Furthermore, there's the possibility that deleting an At Vote Proposal will cause massive problems for the game.

(And while we're at it, should disciplinary action be imposed on regional delegates who ignore the illegality of a proposal and vote to advance it?)No. This was brought up before, and I'm still against it.

I previously stated that seeing this proposal reach quorum and then pass the way it did seemed like a slap in the face to all those who really make an effort to make this game more enjoyable. It certainly saddens me to see so many people so blatantly disregarding the rules.

Anyway, in the spirit of a marvellous quote by an American president "ask not what your country...", I have to ask, what can I as player do to make the work of you, moderator, an easier task?

Typically, Proposals of this caliber aren't a pressing concern: they gather a dozen or so supporters and then fade away as the scythe of non-quroumness lops their head off and kicks them into the abyss. Rarely, if ever, do they resurface. This is why they're typically ignored, or placed low on the concern scale.

Sadly, this one stormed the gates and caught us by surprize. I literally missed killing this by about ten minutes.

There's a few things players can do to help, some easier than others. The most obvious (and most difficult) is to keep quality Proposals coming up to vote, so that a piece of junk that hits quorum five minutes before the update is stuck in the queue, where it can still be deleted.

More practically, it probably requires the GHP or the IRC channel (#themodcave); indeed, this is a very good use for the IRC channel. In general, though, if you're flipping through the list, and you notice a crappy Proposal with a lot more support than it should have (say, 50% of quorum), it's probably a good idea to let someone know via the official channels. The Silly Proposal thread is good for every day crap, but something like this clearly needs "special attention".

Obviously, using the GHP for every bad Proposal isn't what we want. Not only will it flood the Centre, but it'll cause mini-Mod collisions (ie: I don't check the Centre nearly as often as I do the list). No need for that. The GHP and IRC channel should be saved for bad things that are doing way better than they should, or for extreme violations (to use the classic example: "KILL TEH JEWZ!").

Honestly, in a case like this one, the IRC channel is probably best. Forum Moderators have access, so if a Game Mod isn't paying attention, the FM can still get their attention. Also, if you're using the IRC channel and it's close to update time, and the thing is close to quorum, go ahead and mention that too.

Whether by wonderfully malicious scheming or just luck, the previously mentioned 'violation of our dignity' made it thru the rules and processes of the NSUN. No need to panic! Just use the NSUN rules and processes to get rid of it.
The 'vile' resolution passed with a lot of support, so the majority of members (and thus the NSUN) are 'accomplice' to this 'affront to our law and order'. The fact that it will be on the books will serve as a reminder that those who wish the highest standards must be ever vigilant.
With my limited understanding of the process, I think the best prevention is to keep the queue filled with 'glorious' resolutions, thus resulting in the destruction of 'filth'.
Rules and processes will not protect us from everything; we must protect ourselves!

Frege Gott, RenCoL -Logic
nearing the end of his time in this 'serious' body

((OOC: Did any game code actually get changed by this? Most illegal proposals are illegal because of problems they'd cause in-game.))

((OOC: Most illegal proposals are illegal because of problems they'd cause in-game.))

Not even close to "most". Have a look at the Silly Proposals thread sometime.

Why don't people just not vote for stupid resolutions. Proposals like this shouldn't even make it to a vote. Its called common sense people. C-O-M-M-O-N S-E-N-S-E!
* ooc: Didn't you know? We're in the process of killing common sense.

It's just one of those things. Yeah, it's annoying, but it did provoke some amusing debate and conflict. It'll all work out for the best, if you'll excuse my Panglossisizisizing. Ing. *

Well maybe if they weren't idiots they would. do?

I hate to chop you off here, but the forums are largely an unofficial adjunct to the game. No one is required to read them to play Nationstates and make use of the UN and so forth.

I think the biggest issues here are

The average age of most players here in NS has dropped from college level to high school age or lower.

Currently you only need 2 endorsements to make a proposal. Thus most dribbling idiots out there with UN status can file one.

But hey, its like the mods said all you silly and illegal proposal noticers make use of the Getting Help page if you see an extremely ridiculous proposal.

The average age of most players here in NS has dropped from college level to high school age or lower.I think that has always been the age of most of our players.

Currently you only need 2 endorsements to make a proposal.Originally, you didn't need any. Technically, it's harder to submit a Proposal.

I think that has always been the age of most of our players.

I beg to differ.When I first got here around the first months of this year,the fair majority of players I had chance to meet were college level or more.

Originally, you didn't need any. Technically, it's harder to submit a Proposal.


And yet,we are still deluged with garbage proposals

I hate to chop you off here, but the forums are largely an unofficial adjunct to the game. No one is required to read them to play Nationstates and make use of the UN and so forth.That's literally true. It's also true that one doesn't have to read the driver's manual before taking one's licensing test, but it certainly makes for a better experience.

I beg to differ.When I first got here around the first months of this year, the fair majority of players I had chance to meet were college level or more.*Looks at Hack's join date and Sturmholm's.* Um, yeah. If one person's experience is what we're going by, then the majority of players is and always has been post-college workers with time on their hands at work, because, hey, that's who I've primarily run across. And did you mean to shout? Because the bolding looks pretty damn aggressive.

And yet,we are still deluged with garbage proposals

And that's something that hasn't changed the entire time I've played.

There is only one solution to this problem. It's the same as every solution to every problem: A Heath Robinson contraption

I beg to differ.When I first got here around the first months of this year,the fair majority of players I had chance to meet were college level or more.That may have been what you've been lucky to experience, but going on what I've seen, across all spectrums of this game, most players are younger than the group you've met.

And yet,we are still deluged with garbage proposalsI dunno... check the first couple dozen Resolutions...