NationStates Jolt Archive

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UNID Card Act

NOTING the lack of a proper means of UN citizens to identify themselves in UN nations other then their own.

ACKNOWLEDGING the importance of such a system to simplify the transit of people between UN member nations.

The United Nations,

ESTABLISHES the system of the United Nations IDentification Card, abbreviated UNID card. The UNID card must measure 8,5 cm (3,35 inch) by 5,3 cm (2,09 inch). All nations must use a standardized format as described here. The left half has the UN logo and the right half the national logo as background. At the top appears the text “UNITED NATIONS” and the issuing counties name in both the established UN language and in the local language. At the right is the citizens picture in black and white. The persons full name, date of birth, signature and place of birth are placed in that order at the middle of the card together with the expiration date and the UNID card number. At the left is a chip witch can hold additional information at the nations discretion.

DEFINES the UNID card number as code comprising of a UN and national part. The first fifteen digits are a numeric number supplied by the UN as country code. The national part is at the nations discretion.

AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification.

DECLARES that national governments must accept UNID cards as a valid identification of citizens of other UN nations on their soil. UNID cards are valid for a period of five years following their issue date. UN citizens are obliged to carry the UNID card when in UN countries other then their own.

FORBIDS any nation other then the supplier of the UNID card to store data supplied by the UNID card without the written permission of the citizen for any means other then judiciary prosecution.

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date then the 1st of march 2008.

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.

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Proposal listed, feel free to ask questions.

While I'm sure others are going to attack this over civil liberties concerned, I think a much more amusing line of assault is against this clause:

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date then the 1st of march 2008.

I must say that I'm thrilled to see that another unfunded mandate to our nations is being proposed. Goobergunchia has 8.552 billion residents. Getting that many ID cards issues is going to be really expensive.

Darren Funkel
Acting Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Founder, Democratic Underground region

At the moment there is no need for 'UN Citizenship'.
There is no freedom of movement.
No freedom of employment.
No advantages at all in fact.

ooc: considers digging up that old 'free movement of working persons' proposal. Of course her ic nation would hate it.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/674/christophebocobnd6.jpg

The idea isn't a bad one, but my country cannot afford to produce nine and a half billion such cards with integrated electronic chips.

Christophe Boco (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Christophe_Boco),
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Making a billion or more cards will be expensive but remember your economy and tax revenue is aqually large.

http://test256.free.fr/UN%20Cards/pastetech.jpg

in htis context, countries that haven't reached the printing (gutenburg) stage of development.

Making a billion or more cards will be expensive but remember your economy and tax revenue is aqually large.

Our government has other budgetary priorities, however. Infrastructure, healthcare, education...you know, stuff that is actually useful.

Darren Funkel
Acting Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Founder, Democratic Underground region

Forcing people to carry ID cards around is not pro-liberty but anti-liberty.

First off, you've got a lot of typos (such as "then" for "than") that make your proposal look unprofessional. I can find them all if you'd like.

Secondly, I'm not sure I understand what the proposal is supposed to accomplish. Is it just so people can prove their identity? (To be fair, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.) But you might want a clearer introduction so people understand why this is an issue.

Thirdly, this has nothing to do with the furtherment of democracy: if anything, it's the exact opposite (Political Stability).

Fourthly, your use of terms such as "five years" and "1st of march 2008" could draw criticism from nations that don't operate on the same timescale as you do. I'd suggest changing them to vaguer entities with less absolute meaning.

I'd say there's a long way to go before this is a good proposal, but it's not impossible.

Tangentially, producing crazy electronic gizmos is the kind of thing Plutoni does, so other countries can outsource the job to us.*

-the Plutonian ambassador

*Plutonian industry collectively disclaims any responsibility for any bugs in the programming of such entities, including but not limited to claims of sentience.

Making a billion or more cards will be expensive but remember your economy and tax revenue is aqually large.Hmm... let's see... Smart Card World offers 80,000 cards for $0.58 a pop. It looks like they'll go as low as $0.46 per, on an "ask for" quantity. So... let's call it 50 cents a card (which is cheap... I remember when they were $5 each). 8,552,000,000 cards at $0.50 a card comes to a total of $4,276,000,000.00 just for the cards themselves. This includes 4 color/1 color offset printing, but doesn't involve any security features on the face of the card. It also doesn't include any personalization. If you want the person's picture, name, etc. on the card, it will cost even more.

Then there's the cost of distributing these cards.

And the fact that RFID cards are quite fragile. The copper runs around the outside perimeter of the card, so any crack or break will likely ruin the card. As will heat (such as, say, leaving your card in your car on a summer day). So, you'll also need to factor in replacement costs.

Yeah. Randomly forcing nations to cough up billions of dollars for these things isn't going to go over well.

Forcing people to carry ID cards around is not pro-liberty but anti-liberty.

[Statement retracted by the People's Republic of Livermoria.]

In any case, the People's Republic of Livermoria is of the opinion that cards should only be issued to citizens actually requesting them; and it opposes the microchip requirement for the reason that in our opinion all information on the card should be obtainable only by visual inspection (including inspection by automated optical equipment, but only to speed up processing that can also be done manually).


OOC: I'm unhappy with the proposal on other grounds, however: How did Livermorian citizens get into other countries in the first place? Presumably there is some sort of passport system in the NationStates universe, and if so, I would expect those passports to be fully acceptable ID within any country that lets you pass its borders with one. If there is no standardized passport system, we should introduce that instead of this notion of "ID cards".

AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification.

I know my liberties were definitely increased this morning when some security goon told me to identify myself or have my fucking face blown off. Fortunately one of my own security staff knew him from Security Goon School and they hit it off pretty well.

UN citizens are obliged to carry the UNID card when in UN countries other then their own.

And I know this certainly would make me feel more liberated, knowing I have no anonymity and that I could be arrested if I leave the card in the hotel or something.

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.

We are extremely mystified at why the ability to identify oneself would be so desireable considering that it would also imply a compulsion to be able to do so on demand, on pain of some rather undesirable things happening to oneself. Even if it were not compelled by law, suspicion would inevitably be aroused if even if one was doing nothing wrong and simply didn't have their card with them. The inclusion of an RFID chip also rasies great concern about personal privacy, given that readers would not necessarily be limited to those with a valid reason to be reading those chips.

Eric Lattener
Ambassador to the UN

First off, you've got a lot of typos (such as "then" for "than") that make your proposal look unprofessional. I can find them all if you'd like.

Secondly, I'm not sure I understand what the proposal is supposed to accomplish. Is it just so people can prove their identity? (To be fair, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.) But you might want a clearer introduction so people understand why this is an issue.

Thirdly, this has nothing to do with the furtherment of democracy: if anything, it's the exact opposite (Political Stability).

Fourthly, your use of terms such as "five years" and "1st of march 2008" could draw criticism from nations that don't operate on the same timescale as you do. I'd suggest changing them to vaguer entities with less absolute meaning.

I'd say there's a long way to go before this is a good proposal, but it's not impossible.

Tangentially, producing crazy electronic gizmos is the kind of thing Plutoni does, so other countries can outsource the job to us.*

-the Plutonian ambassador

*Plutonian industry collectively disclaims any responsibility for any bugs in the programming of such entities, including but not limited to claims of sentience.


My appologies for any typos you might find, I'm not a native english speaker. I'm unsure what the typos are exactly, if it fails to reach quorum as it is I think I'll adjust it and all help would be welcome.

As for the timescale, I thought it would be necessary. In normal legislation over here you have laws and acts that execute the laws in certain timeframes. This doesn't exist in the UN. If it isn't possible to use timeframes I guess not many proposals like this would make sense.

As for the category I had a struggle with that too. I agree it's hard to classify but I would protest when you say it is the exact opposite. I'm European and over here everyone has a European Identity card and is happy to have one. It's not a matter of national security, it has to do with my citizenship of a nation. We can travel within Europe using only the ID card and it is used to identify yourself in hospitals etc, even in DVD rental shops.

Hmm... let's see... Smart Card World offers 80,000 cards for $0.58 a pop. It looks like they'll go as low as $0.46 per, on an "ask for" quantity. So... let's call it 50 cents a card (which is cheap... I remember when they were $5 each). 8,552,000,000 cards at $0.50 a card comes to a total of $4,276,000,000.00 just for the cards themselves. This includes 4 color/1 color offset printing, but doesn't involve any security features on the face of the card. It also doesn't include any personalization. If you want the person's picture, name, etc. on the card, it will cost even more.

Then there's the cost of distributing these cards.

And the fact that RFID cards are quite fragile. The copper runs around the outside perimeter of the card, so any crack or break will likely ruin the card. As will heat (such as, say, leaving your card in your car on a summer day). So, you'll also need to factor in replacement costs.

Yeah. Randomly forcing nations to cough up billions of dollars for these things isn't going to go over well.

I agree that the system will cost a lot to big nations. but let me respond to your example in US$. You say such a card might cost some $0,5 a piece. Let's say the average tax is some $5000 per citizen per year. That means the first year it would cost only 0,0001% of your national budget and nothing for the next 4 years.

As for distribution, I would suggest them being distributed by a network of town halls that might already be in place.

ooc:
I'm European and I don't have an EU card. In fact national cards are being resisted. But I do have a passport and EU citizenship has been established by one of the European Treaties.
The NSUN does not have any idea of citizenship. So what you're doing is either giving people a redundant card which will cost billions or setting up UN citizenship which will need something a lot better drafted than this and a lot of camapaigning, drafting and re-drafting.

That means the first year it would cost only 0,0001% of your national budget and nothing for the next 4 years.That 0.0001% could buy a lot of textbooks. Or hypersonic rail systems. Or an aircraft carrier.

And, again, I use one of these cards every day to get in and out of work. It's a small miracle that mine has survived for the past 5 years. I know several people that need a replacement every six months or so. Replacement costs will be staggering.

As for distribution, I would suggest them being distributed by a network of town halls that might already be in place.Assuming a nation even has town halls, you still need to make them ($$$), ship them ($$$), pay people to hand them out ($$$), and then replace them when they crack, or get too hot, or get lost, or otherwise get destroyed/damaged ($$$).

Oh, and that's just the cards. Needless to say, the card readers, databases, and software cost rather more than fifty cents a piece.

Ok, so here's the spell-checked version of the proposal. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------------------
UNID Card Act

NOTING the lack of a proper means of UN citizens to identify themselves in UN nations other than their own,

ACKNOWLEDGING the importance of such a system to simplify the transit of people between UN member nations,

The United Nations,

ESTABLISHES the system of the United Nations IDentification Card, abbreviated UNID card. The UNID card must measure 8,5 cm (3,35 inch) by 5,3 cm (2,09 inch). All nations must use a standardized format as described here. The left half has the UN logo and the right half the national logo as background. At the top appears the text “UNITED NATIONS” and the issuing country's name in both the established UN language and in the local language. At the right is the citizen's picture in black and white. The person's full name, date of birth, signature and place of birth are placed in that order at the middle of the card together with the expiration date and the UNID card number. At the left is a chip which can hold additional information at the nation's discretion.

DEFINES the UNID card number as code comprising of a UN and national part. The first fifteen digits are a numeric number supplied by the UN as country code. The national part is at the nation's discretion.

AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification,

DECLARES that national governments must accept UNID cards as a valid identification of citizens of other UN nations on their soil. UNID cards are valid for a period of five years following their issue date. UN citizens are obliged to carry the UNID card when in UN countries other then their own.

FORBIDS any nation other then the supplier of the UNID card to store data supplied by the UNID card without the written permission of the citizen for any means other then judiciary prosecution.

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date than the 1st of March 2008.

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.

Also, what do you mean by "national logo"?

-the Plutonian ambassador

So what was wrong with our citizens applying for passports and visas abroad and their driver's license at home for I.D.?

Fiore Acquerello
Deputy UN Ambassador

The concern from what have seen here is cost to produce and keep these cards in place. Well Cavirra will provide such cards for cost to any nation desiring to use our services. Please send a details of the cards needed to include just what functions the chips will perform.. Also any serurity concerns of safeguarding the cards to prevent rogue nations from getting them and using them to travel under a UNID. As we will then use hard labor to produce them for almost nothing... and insure they are replaced should they become defective. Also work with individual nations to collect any data needed to be placed on them.. in any memory chips in them.

As we think this matter of the security of these cards has been overshadowed buy the cost... both duely related to each other since the tighter the secuity the more it will cost.

Again our nation is here to serve and so just contact us with the information should you pass this resolution and desire our services in producing these UNID cards.


Robem Blindthief,
Minister of Trade Cavirra,
Senior Agent Third Order,
Life Member Spies International

NOTE: Send this to Minister of Prisons see what it will cost to use prisoners to make these... Then get it over to Watchdod Department and see how many they will need of these and what nations they would want them from.

Well Cavirra will provide such cards for cost to any nation desiring to use our services.I'm sure you will. Hell, I'll start up a company specifically to do this; I'm not about to turn down billions upon billions of chits infused into my bank account for minimal effort.

The thing about the complaints (mostly) isn't about liberty and freedom, it's about that cost. As mentioned, the nation of Goobergunchia alone would have to spend over four billion just to get the cards. There are thousands of nations in the UN, many of them with billions of citizens.

Was this proposal authored by a manufacturer of these cards? Wish I'd thought of that.


-Yuri Shirow
Shirow Brokers Int'l
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious Hack

This is a clear category violation: the measures detailed do not provide for the expansion of political freedoms within UN member states.

Benedictions,

UNID card? In Kivisto, we just call it a passport. Admittedly, our passports don't have microchips embedded in them, but they also won't be erased by magnets or EMP's. We also don't see the need for anyone to have one unless they are actually leaving the nation. Nor do we see it as being necessary to have different passports depending on whether their destination is in the UN or not.

Was this proposal authored by a manufacturer of these cards? Wish I'd thought of that.


-Yuri Shirow
Shirow Brokers Int'l
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious HackOr perhaps some unstable unhonorable nation looking for a profit thru whatever means legal or not legal.. That would use this as a means to enter nations under false ID and gain whatever they might being citizens of a UN member nation.. As know many nations now have to deal with illegal imigration and that;so how would this curve that problem.. or could it add to it... Criminals in any nation hostile to the UN could gain these and use them.... also there is no clear intent of what will be on those chips.. thus more information for criminals to get to all in a central easy to target location. Look at the problems with the cards folks carry today just to do normal business in many nations of this world...


Again we are here to serve and any nation that desires our services just contact us.... for flat rates... with an easy payment plan...


Hoodini Carksman,
Minister of Security Cavirra,
CEO Idenity Checker International
"Need an Idenity we will make it for you"

Anyone caught with anything resembling the IDs specified in this resolution will be construed as a UN Gnome and will be terminated on sight.

We are glad to see that the destruction of civil liberties inherent in this proposal have largely gone without saying. From a practical point of view, the proposal has no apparent effect beyond the expenditure of vast sums of money by governments, as has been noted. The ostensible reason, that of identifying the card holder when in a foreign UN nation, is clearly vacuous; the person concerned must have some form of identification already (to wit, a passport) or they would not be in said nation. We must therefore consider the likely ulterior motives, which range from vested interests of card manufacturing businesses to governments intent on knowing everything about everone all the time. Frankly, unless the author is willing to be more convincing about the need for such unified identification, we are unlikely to offer any support to this proposal whatsoever.

I find myself in complete agreement with all the objections raised to this reprehensible proposal.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Completely reprehensible! We cannot bring ourselves in any regard to support such egregious violations of common sense and liberty.

Harmalan Shandreth
Ambassador Plenipotens

NOTING the lack of a proper means of UN citizens to identify themselves in UN nations other then their own.

Sure they do, they are called visas and passports

ACKNOWLEDGING the importance of such a system to simplify the transit of people between UN member nations.

Since presumably nations will continue issuing and requiring passports and visas, I fail to see how the UNID card will simplify international travel


RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card

What is the point of issuing it to citizens who do not travel abroad?

We have absolutely no objection to this proposal on the grounds of its being "anti-liberty". That's pure nonsense. But we do have very serious and compelling doubts about costs and benefits.

As has been pointed out, this would be a very costly proposition. And we're just not convinced that the benefits would outweigh the costs. We haven't cllosed our minds on this, but the author is going to have to make a much better case on the cost-benefit angle before we would consider supporting the proposal.

Travilia E. Thwerdock
Ambassador to the United Nations

Joining the peanut gallery, Altanar will also have to say "thanks, but no thanks" to this idea. We don't really seeing this as being a "reprehensible" idea, or one infringing on liberty. However, the cost-benefit equation just doesn't work out in favor of this idea. Also, passports and nationally-issued IDs seem to do the job just fine. Given those facts, we have to go thumbs down on this one.

- Jinella Agaranth, Ambassador

Hye boss call the Minister of Prisons tell him hold that order on paper presses and get more metal... Looks like folks not going to need us. Also call the Acency and tell them find another way to infiltrate UN member nations..

Delusional Natural,
Soldier of the Third Night,
Lower Clerk to Somebody

The original proposal had been deleted by the moderates for “does nothing to further political freedom” before reaching quorum. I don’t want to fight over the decision but I would say I was somewhat surprised at it being deleted so late when 90 nations had supported it and a lot of work had been put into advertising. I for one still feel it to be a proposal meant for the furtherment of democracy. I feel it is my democratic right to have a legal document that can prove my identity. It’s just how you interpret democratic rights. In even stronger terms I feel a nation should be obliged to issue an ID card to every citizen. But in the proposal it is only encouraged to use the card as such and with all the so called liberty intrusions I wouldn’t guess it to be able to pass with this obligation into it.

Here is a slightly altered version with some typos corrected. I would guess I’d put it n as a Human Rights proposal since Furtherment of Democracy is out of the question. Any or all feedback on ideas, typos etc would be appreciated…

UNID Card Act

NOTING the lack of or the international differences in a proper means of UN citizens to identify themselves in UN nations other than their own.

ACKNOWLEDGING the importance of such a standardized system to simplify the transit of people between UN member nations.

The United Nations,

ESTABLISHES the system of the United Nations IDentification Card, abbreviated UNID card. The UNID card must measure 8,5 cm (3,35 inch) by 5,3 cm (2,09 inch). All nations must use a standardized format as described here. The left half has the UN logo and the right half the national logo or flag as background. At the top appears the text “UNITED NATIONS” and the issuing county’s name in both the established UN language and in the local language. At the right is the citizen’s picture in black and white. The person’s full name, date of birth, signature and place of birth are placed in that order at the middle of the card together with the expiration date and the UNID card number. At the left is a chip which can hold additional information at the nation’s discretion.

DEFINES the UNID card number as code comprising of a UN and national part. The first fifteen digits are a numeric number supplied by the UN as country code. The national part is at the nation’s discretion.

AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification.

DECLARES that national governments must accept UNID cards as a valid identification of citizens of other UN nations on their soil. UNID cards are valid for a period of five years following their issue date. The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.

FORBIDS any nation other then the supplier of the UNID card to store data supplied by the UNID card without the written permission of the citizen for any means other then judiciary prosecution.

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date than the 1st of july 2008.

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and strongly encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.

So what was wrong with our citizens applying for passports and visas abroad and their driver's license at home for I.D.?

Fiore Acquerello
Deputy UN Ambassador


Since we're on the topic...

I've always wondered how this driver's license works. I guess not everyone has a driver's license. So how do they do basic things that recuire an ID like:
- getting a registered letter from a postal office
- rent something like a DVD or even a car, they won't believe you on your word when you say you're that person.
- open a bank account or take out a loan, over here banks are obliged to have a copy of the person's ID card on record.
- prove you're over a certain age when buying beer or cigarettes.
- how do you identify when you drive into Canda for instance, do you need to have a Visa?

some countries have a Photo ID that you can get from the driving testing place as well. Here's RL british columbia's version (http://www.icbc.com/Licensing/lic_utility_id_cardPU.asp)

how do you identify when you drive into Canda for instance, do you need to have a Visa? No, you need a Mastercard :p (Canada & USA border - you need a passport now to cross (I think it kicks in, in the new year), though the state/provincial gov'ts are fighting for a passport lite option.)

In even stronger terms I feel a nation should be obliged to issue an ID card to every citizen. But in the proposal it is only encouraged to use the card as such and with all the so called liberty intrusions I wouldn’t guess it to be able to pass with this obligation into it.

You've never heard of a birth certificate? (oh wait...not all countries give them out...as not all births are recorded...)

I would guess I’d put it n as a Human Rights proposal since Furtherment of Democracy is out of the question. Any or all feedback on ideas, typos etc would be appreciated…

We strongly disagree (from which you may take it that we dispute AWARE clause also). Identity cards provide a means of identifying the holder; such is a means of control, not liberty. We would suggest that the appropriate category is Political Stability.

I was somewhat surprised at it being deleted so late when 90 nations had supported it and a lot of work had been put into advertising.Irrelevant. I've deleted Proposals that have had over 200 supporters and were hours away from going to vote. If it's illegal, it gets deleted.

I feel it is my democratic right to have a legal document that can prove my identity.This still doesn't improve democratic freedoms. Furtherment of Democracy deals with Political Freedoms, such as speaking out against the government or voting. Forcing citizens to carry an ID card does not affect Political Freedoms one way or another.

From Rules for UN Proposals [Now Binding] (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8913218&postcount=2):These are exactly opposed types of resolutions and affect Political Freedoms. "The Furtherment of Democracy" increases these freedoms while "Political Stability" reduces them. Remember that these freedoms primarily discuss the domestic Political policies of UN member nations; Shall the UN require its members to grant more or less say in the operations of their government? Who makes the decisions? Whether or not you even get to vote on anything (or anyone) is a Political Freedoms issue. Total Political Freedoms represent something akin to pure democracies, where every single citizen has a direct vote in every single matter. Zero Political Freedoms means that the citizens (or subjects, or slaves) have no say in the operations of government whatsoever. Imposing regulation on campaign finances is a mild form of reducing Political Freedoms.I don't see how an ID card fits into this at all.

Here is a slightly altered version with some typos corrected. I would guess I’d put it n as a Human Rights proposal since Furtherment of Democracy is out of the question. Any or all feedback on ideas, typos etc would be appreciated…

You still have the offending clause that drains our government's coffers....

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date than the 1st of july 2008.

I don't see you offering to pay for it, and as the Hackian ambassador pointed out, we'd have to spend over four billion USD if this passed. We're not looking forward to that.

Darren Funkel
Acting Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Founder, Democratic Underground region

I believe there's an appropriate if overused term to describe this clause: 'doublespeak'.

This proposal can surely only be submitted under 'Political Stability', for the reasons so eloquently laid out by Prince Rhodri. I will naturally stand in vigorous opposition, especially given the unpleasant deceit contained within the offending clause mentioned above.

Benedictions,

This still doesn't improve democratic freedoms. Furtherment of Democracy deals with Political Freedoms, such as speaking out against the government or voting. Forcing citizens to carry an ID card does not affect Political Freedoms one way or another.

I understand your reasoning but I don't share it, that's what this game is all about, having a lively discussion ;-). When i resubmit it I'll do it as a Political Stability Proposal.

As for the matter of $. What do you think of this:

DECLARES that national governments may charge the citizen with the production cost of the card and any replacement cards. The citizen is responsible for putting at disposal of the government a valid photograph to be used for the UNID card.

Let's start the "it's a shame to tax citizens too much" discussion :-)

So what was wrong with our citizens applying for passports and visas abroad and their driver's license at home for I.D.?

Fiore Acquerello
Deputy UN Ambassador

Will the esteemed representative from Herconia please answering Ambassador Acquerello's question, as your current proposal indicates that it does superceed passports and driver licenses (as well as the social insurance number or social security cards (sorry, canada and US RL reference...)). It is noted that these pieces of plastic and paper that people use as "legal document that prove their own identity" .

And if it does carry this information, how will this deal with past tech nations that are part of the UN, as I previously asked, as you expected RFID to be built into these cards (noting how you still have the word "chip" in your resolution).

Janey Slate
Mavenu UN Ambassador

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and strongly encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.

Nations can keep using driver's licenses as ID if they prefer, the proposal doesn't say they can't. It also says nations can decide themselves what info to put on the chip or RFID.

As for past tech nations, what can I say... If the nation hasn't evolved as far as to kwow of plastic and chips they will need to buy them in another country I guess. If a nation is made up of threeheaded dragons, which head is put on the ID and is each dragon supplied with 3 ID's :-)?

As for the matter of $. What do you think of this:
DECLARES that national governments may charge the citizen with the production cost of the card and any replacement cards. The citizen is responsible for putting at disposal of the government a valid photograph to be used for the UNID card.
Let's start the "it's a shame to tax citizens too much" discussion :-)
If the UN wants these things so damn much then why can't the UN pay for them? And those of you who know where I'm going with this, shut up.
As for past tech nations, what can I say... If the nation hasn't evolved as far as to kwow of plastic and chips they will need to buy them in another country I guess. If a nation is made up of threeheaded dragons, which head is put on the ID and is each dragon supplied with 3 ID's :-)?

Oh, so you want to force any past tech or magic tech nation to change. Plus how are any of those nations going to be able to use the chips? If a nation hasn't discovered electricity to run the readers I guess their just SOL huh?

And then there are nations like Cobdenia which exist in a time warp, you can fly a modern day jet into there, but you'll be landing in a biplane. What's going to happen when someone tries to take one of these cards there?

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

"Let it hereby be known what our feelings towards ID cards are."

A large dump truck filled with IDs backs up into the GA and dumps its load in a big pile.

"Here we go, then."

Dr. Hodz pulls out a large torch and tosses it into the pile of ID cards, which flames up quickly.

"And there you have it. Enjoy the caustic fumes." Dr. Hodz said, putting on a gas mask.

I feel it is my democratic right to have a legal document that can prove my identity.

I feel it is my democratic right not to be numbered, fingerprinted, DNAed and registered on pain of imprisonment. Or to be subject to arrest if I cannot produce the ID card on demand by police. I realise neither of these are necessarily mandated by the proposal, but given that nations which already do have such mandatory cards tend to have these laws as well, it's a connection I feel is extremely relevant. Furthermore, one thing that is mandatory is RFID, which is just asking for privacy invasions and could potentially be used for tracking purposes. There's also an expiry date attached, and I can forsee a government refusing to renew the card of a political opponent, rendering him basically persona non grata.

But if you wish to have such a document, there are many options and at least one must surely be applicable in any given nation. Passports are the most universal, but there are also driving licences, welfare cards, health insurance cards, proof of citizenship cards, student cards, work permits, residency cards... all forms of offically issued identifcation which can be readily accepted anywhere. For example, I never had any problems getting student discounts while travelling even with a foreign student ID which helpfully had "Ministry of Education" printed across the top. In my life I've been fortunate to have visited dozens of countries and my passport has never been deemed insufficient as identification, either by immigration authorities or to buy booze in local shops.

"
Dr. Hodz pulls out a large torch and tosses it into the pile of ID cards, which flames up quickly. Anyone want marshmellows.

"And there you have it. Enjoy the caustic fumes." Dr. Hodz said, putting on a gas mask.Hope you checked on existing UN resolutions to see if this actions didn't violate one or more of them.

Originally Posted by Herconia
As for the matter of $. What do you think of this:

DECLARES that national governments may charge the citizen with the production cost of the card and any replacement cards. The citizen is responsible for putting at disposal of the government a valid photograph to be used for the UNID card. What if citizens make no money or it all goes to pay those taxes then where does the funds come for to pay for them to have this. I can see requiring citizens who get one and abuse it; thus it is destroyed; have to pay for the replacement but for the first one.. even if they never leave their country and need it to prove they are a citizen of a UN member nation.. about only thing they might use it for is to open locked doors then risk abusing the card and having to pay for replacements.

I feel it is my democratic right not to be numbered, fingerprinted, DNAed and registered on pain of imprisonment. Or to be subject to arrest if I cannot produce the ID card on demand by police. I realise neither of these are necessarily mandated by the proposal, but given that nations which already do have such mandatory cards tend to have these laws as well, it's a connection I feel is extremely relevant. Furthermore, one thing that is mandatory is RFID, which is just asking for privacy invasions and could potentially be used for tracking purposes. There's also an expiry date attached, and I can forsee a government refusing to renew the card of a political opponent, rendering him basically persona non grata.

While we don't support this proposal, we do feel that it's simply unfair and illogical to tar it as some horrid plot to wipe out everyone's freedom. The distinguished representative of Kelssek feels he has a "democratic right" not to be required to possess an ID card. While we disagree, we must respect his right to hold that opinion. But then the representative goes on to list dire consequences of the proposal for human liberty. This is where logic leaves and paranoia arrives.

As the representative notes, none of these consequences necessarily flows from the proposal at all. "But if the card is required, then nations can use it for these nefarious purposes" seems to be the contention. And that's exactly correct. But let's think about that. If a nation wants to use an ID card system to control its population, it would already have installed such a system on its own. It wouldn't need the NSUN to tell it to do that. The representative notes that "nations which already do have such mandatory cards tend to have these [objectionable] laws as well". Here, he puts the cart before the horse. It's not the ID card system which produces the curtailment of liberty; it's the desire of these nations to curtail liberty that produces the system.

An ID card system is a tool. And just like a hammer, which can be used to drive a nail or smash a skull, it can be used for good purposes or ill. Our problem with this proposal is that its requirements would be very costly ones, and we've heard nothing to convince us that the benefits would outweigh the costs.

Travilia E. Thwerdock
Ambassador to the United Nations

yeah i guess so the Un citizenship is a good idea but it will be a real expense for nothing... sorry dude....
Everything is for Anatolia...

It is all very well for Ausserland to summarily discount the serious concerns regarding civil liberties, yet there is a simple reason: our citizens refuse to be forced to have these cards. Even if they won't be required by our government to carry them around, the majority are simply uncomfortable with the whole idea. Unlike a social services card or a drivers' licence it serves no purpose or benefit to them; as we have already pointed out if there is a need for official identification there are a plethora which by all reasonable expectations are readily available in any country.

It is important, also, to remember we are discussing these in an international context. It is clearly mandated that our own citizens will be obligated to have the card when in another country. What will happen to our citizens when they are there and for some reason or another don't have the card in their possession? Will they be arrested? Fined? Imprisoned? It is a very valid concern for our government which will be tasked with the responsibility of their welfare and extradition home.

We could all afford to be much more paranoid, sir, about harmless-sounding schemes which have significant implications for the very way we live our daily lives.

Eric Lattener
Ambassador to the UN

It is clearly mandated that our own citizens will be obligated to have the card when in another country. What will happen to our citizens when they are there and for some reason or another don't have the card in their possession? Will they be arrested? Fined? Imprisoned?
That would depend on local legislation, just like at the present. With or without passing this proposal, your citizens must be aware of the laws of the countries they travel to, including their regulations on carrying ID. We fail to see in what way this situation would be changed by the proposal.

While we also oppose the proposal on many grounds, this particular argument seems somewhat weak.

That would depend on local legislation, just like at the present. With or without passing this proposal, your citizens must be aware of the laws of the countries they travel to, including their regulations on carrying ID. We fail to see in what way this situation would be changed by the proposal.

While we also oppose the proposal on many grounds, this particular argument seems somewhat weak.

If you double check the proposal...

DECLARES ... UN citizens are obliged to carry the UNID card when in UN countries other then their own.

...this is a rather important challenge.

If you double check the proposal...
If you double check what I wrote... I am aware of the contents of the proposal. I am also aware that anyone traveling to another country without knowing whether they are required to carry ID there is right now, without adoption of the proposal, a big idiot. Knowing your destination's laws and choosing your destinations intelligently is something that is already necessary, and this is something that will not change. Which, incidently, is what I wrote above.

It is all very well for Ausserland to summarily discount the serious concerns regarding civil liberties, yet there is a simple reason: our citizens refuse to be forced to have these cards. Even if they won't be required by our government to carry them around, the majority are simply uncomfortable with the whole idea. Unlike a social services card or a drivers' licence it serves no purpose or benefit to them; as we have already pointed out if there is a need for official identification there are a plethora which by all reasonable expectations are readily available in any country.

It is important, also, to remember we are discussing these in an international context. It is clearly mandated that our own citizens will be obligated to have the card when in another country. What will happen to our citizens when they are there and for some reason or another don't have the card in their possession? Will they be arrested? Fined? Imprisoned? It is a very valid concern for our government which will be tasked with the responsibility of their welfare and extradition home.

We could all afford to be much more paranoid, sir, about harmless-sounding schemes which have significant implications for the very way we live our daily lives.

Eric Lattener
Ambassador to the UN

We did not "summarily discount" your concerns. We pointed out that your expressed concerns failed the test of logic.

What would happen to people visiting a foreign country who didn't have the card in their possession? As the honorable representative of Livermoria pointed out, that would depend entirely on that country's judicial system. As far as we're concerned, if your citizens visit our country and violate the law, they should be and will be held to proper account.

And we have no intention, sir, of adopting paranoia as our mode of thinking about this or any other subject. We intend to use logic and reason rather than succumbing to a psychological disorder.

Balthasar H. von Aschenbach
Prime Minister

If you double check what I wrote... I am aware of the contents of the proposal. I am also aware that anyone traveling to another country without knowing whether they are required to carry ID there is right now, without adoption of the proposal, a big idiot. Knowing your destination's laws and choosing your destinations intelligently is something that is already necessary, and this is something that will not change. Which, incidently, is what I wrote above.

Generally you already need to have something called a passport to enter the other country in the first place. It makes no sense that we have to mandate carrying ID cards at all times as well. There should be, furthermore, the recognition of a shared responsibility on the part of the country receiving tourists to make such regulations known and publicised, as well as to the tourist to do the due diligence to get at that information. But there's a limit to what it is reasonable to expect a visitor to know.

As far as we're concerned, if your citizens visit our country and violate the law, they should be and will be held to proper account.

But we are discussing the merit of imposing such a law in the first place. It is our belief that it should not be a violation of the law to be found without an ID card with you, and we find your hardline approach to what would be in our opinion an incredibly minor infraction quite ridiculous and in our view shows that quite to the contrary of the proposal's assertion that it will "increase the liberties" of people, the opposite is true, even if the effect might be merely psychological - and we shouldn't discount that; after all, according to my honourable colleague I am mentally ill.

*froths at the mouth briefly*

You talk about benefits, yet you have not shown any compelling ones that call for the implementation of this. At best it is simply an unnecessary waste of resources and as we see it the benefits of this scheme are approximately nil.

Eric Lattener
Ambassador to the UN

But we are discussing the merit of imposing such a law in the first place. It is our belief that it should not be a violation of the law to be found without an ID card with you, and we find your hardline approach to what would be in our opinion an incredibly minor infraction quite ridiculous and in our view shows that quite to the contrary of the proposal's assertion that it will "increase the liberties" of people, the opposite is true, even if the effect might be merely psychological - and we shouldn't discount that; after all, according to my honourable colleague I am mentally ill.

*froths at the mouth briefly*

You talk about benefits, yet you have not shown any compelling ones that call for the implementation of this. At best it is simply an unnecessary waste of resources and as we see it the benefits of this scheme are approximately nil.

Eric Lattener
Ambassador to the UN

We'd very much appreciate it if, while frothing at the mouth, you avoided misrepresenting our position on this proposal.

You talk about our "hard-line" approach. We merely said that people who violate the law should be held accountable for their actions. We said nothing about any penalty that might be imposed. If you consider that "hardline", so be it. We find that preposterous.

As for benefits.... Yes, if we recall correctly, we've mentioned benefits twice. And both times we said we doubted that the substantial costs would be outweighed by any benefits that might accrue. We are opposed to this proposal. But we believe there are sufficient grounds to oppose it without resorting to specious, illogical arguments.

Balthasar H. von Aschenbach
Prime Minister

I must apologise for the ambassador, as he neglected to properly read the Hansards, or indeed put on any pants - and I thank the delegates for their gracious tolerance of the latter - before coming to work today and then barging in on the discussion. The Prime Minister of Ausserland is, of course, correct.

Our opposition to the proposal is likewise quite clear, however nevertheless it is worth reiterating certain points. Saying this "increases liberties" is horribly contentious, at best and has no place in the text of the proposal. If by some regrettable circumstance this indeed becomes a resolution, the card should never expire and finally, there must never be a mandated requirement for its carriage in any circumstance.

Thank you for your indulgence, sirs, and good day.

Erin Caswell
First Secretary of the Permanent Mission to the UN

Saying this "increases liberties" is horribly contentiousI've already ruled that this is not a Furtherment of Democracy Proposal.

Indeed, the author has already stated that it won't be submitted under Furtherment of Democracy:When i resubmit it I'll do it as a Political Stability Proposal.

OOC: Indeed, but I'm referring to the statement which remains in the text of the most recent revision.

Wouldn't the chip get mouldy? And how exactly does a fried potato product hold additional information?

Seriously, though, a passprt proposal would be far more useful then an ID card resolution

Wouldn't the chip get mouldy? And how exactly does a fried potato product hold additional information?

Seriously, though, a passprt proposal would be far more useful then an ID card resolution
:D

We actually had a Passport Harmonization proposal, before my time. According to the Wiki, it got removed on the move to Jolt.

Re-writing that would do well, considering the wonderful margin it passed by. (16,174 for, 3,817 against)

It is the position of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that any means of national identification used either for domestic purposes or for traveling abroad should be left up individual governments. It is up to all nations for set their own policy as to how to handle incoming foreign nationals, and what documentation is needed to enter the country.

in short, its up to every nation to make,distribute,and regulate their own passports.

http://i15.tinypic.com/4z20wh5.jpg

:D

We actually had a Passport Harmonization proposal, before my time. According to the Wiki, it got removed on the move to Jolt.

Re-writing that would do well, considering the wonderful margin it passed by. (16,174 for, 3,817 against)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=309461
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=309828

I've loved to read al your comments.

As for the liberties, I am a RL mandatory card holder and I don't see any dictatorial flag hanging out my window so against all odds and to anyones amazement I guess it is possible :-). You can say all you like I only see advantages. If there is another argument then "The big bad government, that by sheer coincidence I helped elect, is going to take massive abuse of me having to carry a small card" I'll resubmit the proposal and we'll see what happens ;-)

(Just a sidenote, how do you vote for government if you don't have a government-issued ID? And as for voter registration, having to register before you can vote is far more an infringement to your liberties as a simple ID.)

As for the reasons why, I believe such system will make international travel a lot easier. And I guess I firmly believe every nation should issue an ID card to their citizens, it shouldn't be an issue open for discussion.

As for the ones who believe I'm going completely nuts, I'm an ordinary European citizen, 25 years old, working full time in the IT sector, never had any mental problems...yet :-)

OOC: speaking as an ordinary European citizen of considerably older vintage working full-time in the IT sector, that makes you pretty unique :-)

IC: The ambassador has still failed to demonstrate any need for an object whose sole mandated purpose must necessarily already be covered by existing documents. An individual must already have a passport or similar identification to have entered another country; requiring them to additionally carry an identity card is frivolous bureaucracy of a nature of which we somewhat atypically disapprove.

My Beretta usually gets me where I need to be. Who needs a card?

-- Marcus Diegaus

(Just a sidenote, how do you vote for government if you don't have a government-issued ID? And as for voter registration, having to register before you can vote is far more an infringement to your liberties as a simple ID.)


Registration cards based off tax rolls and previous elections (for location) :) and then just show your driver's license (Or immigration papers, or a student ID card, or a social security card... you know, a government-issued ID...). Reduces red tape AND saves government money as well.

As for the reasons why, I believe such system will make international travel a lot easier. And I guess I firmly believe every nation should issue an ID card to their citizens, it shouldn't be an issue open for discussion.


edit: Gob already said it...

---

And I'm still unhappy you forcing past-tech nations to "upgrade" their technology because of this proposal (heck, I remember one nation being RPed as recently discovering fire...I think this was in 05-or-06), while still not considering magic-based nations differences.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=309461
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=309828The more things change, the more they stay the same...

UNID Card Act
A resolution to restrict political freedoms in the interest of law and order.


Category: Political Stability
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Herconia

Description: NOTING the lack of or the international differences in a proper means of UN citizens to identify themselves in UN nations other than their own.

ACKNOWLEDGING the importance of such a standardized system to simplify the transit of people between UN member nations.

The United Nations,

ESTABLISHES the system of the United Nations IDentification Card, abbreviated UNID card. The UNID card must measure 8,5 cm (3,35 inch) by 5,3 cm (2,09 inch). All nations must use a standardized format as described here. The left half has the UN logo and the right half the national logo or flag as background. At the top appears the text “UNITED NATIONS” and the issuing county’s name in both the established UN language and in the local language. At the right is the citizen’s picture in black and white. The person’s full name, date of birth, signature and place of birth are placed in that order at the middle of the card together with the expiration date and the UNID card number. It is allowed for a nation to place an RFID at the left of the card that can hold additional information at the nation’s discretion.

DEFINES the UNID card number as code comprising of a UN and national part. The first fifteen digits are a numeric number supplied by the UN as country code. The national part is at the nation’s discretion.

AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification.

DECLARES that national governments must accept UNID cards as a valid identification of citizens of other UN nations on their soil. UNID cards are valid for a period of five years following their issue date. The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.

FORBIDS any nation other then the supplier of the UNID card to store data supplied by the UNID card without the written permission of the citizen for any means other then judiciary prosecution.

DECLARES that national governments may charge the citizen with the production cost of the card and of any replacement cards. The citizen is responsible for putting at disposal of the government a valid photograph to be used for the UNID card.

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date than the 1st of august 2008.

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and strongly encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.

Approvals: 0

Status: Lacking Support (requires 119 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Sun Sep 16 2007


Proposal altered and corrected according to suggestions. Please support the proposal!

Thank you

I don't know about anyone else but to me this clause,
AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification.seems kind of out of place in a Political Stability resolution.

Oh and since the ambassador from Herconia apparently missed a question I asked earlier
If the UN wants these things so damn much then why can't the UN pay for them? And those of you who know where I'm going with this, shut up.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Now, are you going to answer my question, or do I have to get out my fish?

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Would the sentence that I've placed in bold in this section
DECLARES that national governments must accept UNID cards as a valid identification of citizens of other UN nations on their soil. UNID cards are valid for a period of five years following their issue date. The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.give all citizens of UN member-nations an automatic right of entry to all member-nations?
If so, then my government adds that point to its list of objections...

Would the sentence that I've placed in bold in this section
give all citizens of UN member-nations an automatic right of entry to all member-nations?
If so, then my government adds that point to its list of objections...

That is not in the scope of the proposal, it merely gives you a means to ID yourself.

Oh and since the ambassador from Herconia apparently missed a question I asked earlier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flibbleites
If the UN wants these things so damn much then why can't the UN pay for them? And those of you who know where I'm going with this, shut up.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Now, are you going to answer my question, or do I have to get out my fish?

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

I might be mistaken but to this day I don't believe there is a resolution stating the UN getting any funding from taxes etc. It would therefor not be possible for the UN to pay for them...

That is not in the scope of the proposal, it merely gives you a means to ID yourself.

In that case, I think that (if the proposal isn't just going to be dropped, as I and my government would definitely prefer) the clause in question really needs to be re-written.

As things currently stand, we -- like many other nations -- generally require that foreigners obtain visas before entering our lands.
This clause says that "The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations."
And surely the logical interpretation of that sentence about replacing systems is that anybody with a UNID card must be treated as having a valid visa for every UN member-nation?

The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.

a VISA make sure that someone has an author to pass another country border.
if we replace it with UNID & this UNID will be given to every citizen, all citizen may pass another county.I think this is not good.
if this UNID card can be combined with VISA (for some nation),so what is this speciality/purpose?

sincerely,
ambassador of HeavenlyStar

Incidentally, this proposal makes several uses of the term "citizens": How would it apply to those "nationals" of UN member-nations who aren't actually defined as "citizens" under their home nations' laws?

AWARE that the UNID card system doesn’t infringe on the liberties of UN citizens, but increases their liberties by giving an easy and safe means of identification.
Calumny! Such deceit is unworthy of this munificent organ.

FORBIDS any nation other then the supplier of the UNID card to store data supplied by the UNID card without the written permission of the citizen for any means other then judiciary prosecution.
I think you mean 'than'.

DECLARES that national governments may charge the citizen with the production cost of the card and of any replacement cards. The citizen is responsible for putting at disposal of the government a valid photograph to be used for the UNID card.
This clause is rather unpleasant. Not only is a government foisting an unwanted agent of state control on its citizens, it's making them pay for the privilege.

RESOLVES that all UN member nations must supply all their citizens with a UNID card at no later date than the 1st of august 2008.
Absurd in the extreme. I predict close to zero compliance, not because of intransigence, rather inability to meet such a severe deadline.

AFFIRMS that UN member nations are allowed and strongly encouraged to use the UNID card as a national identification card, to give their own citizens the ability to identify themselves in their own country by the UNID card.
The crux of the matter: ID cards are unwelcome in many, probably most countries.

No, no, no.

Benedictions,

With the addition of this sentence...

The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.

... Ausserland is now firmly and unalterably opposed to this proposal. A visa is issused by the government of the nation to be visited, signifying its approval of the person to enter its territory. This seems to mean that we would be required to admit anyone possessing a UNID card. That may not be the case. It may be an unfortunate wording. But we will not allow this organization to tell us how we will control access to our nation. If we choose to issue visas, we'll do so.

We've said it before and we'll say it again. The control of entry to its territory is both a fundamental right and fundamental responsibility of every sovereign nation. We will not accept dictation from the NSUN or any other power in this regard.

By order of His Royal Highness, the Prince of Ausserland:

Balthasar H. von Aschenbach
Prime Minister

As for the visa issue, as to the best of my knowledge there's no resolution implementing visa's or anything of the sort so I take it for a fact there is no universally accepted way of identification, travel or.... I don't just "assume" there are visa's as was stated earlier.

Merely speaking for Herconia, we don't have visa's. Moreover we don't accept any citizen's from outside the Heartland (the region I'm in). This proposal will change nothing about that. The proposal WILL make it easier for citizens from Heartland nations that joined the UN to identify themselves when they enter or are in our country.

This makes me want to get my alter-ego to revive this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=480855) again.

We really have to agree with Prime Minister von Aschenbach on this point: abolishing or replacing the visa system in individual nations is simply insane, and a staggeringly outrageous usurpation of national sovereignty, and the rights of nations to regulate the entry and movement of visitors inside their borders. This development almost leads us to believe that this proposal writer really doesn't know what he is doing, and that this Assembly would be much better off resurrecting previous Cobdenian (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461742) efforts (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461740) at harmonizing international travel documentation. They would prove a far superior protection for international travelers than this proposal.

Cdr. Jenny Chiang
Deputy Ambassador to the United Nations

We agree heartily with Commander Chiang that the earlier efforts of the distinguished representative of Cobdenia along this line were far superior to the current effort. We would certainly welcome a resurrection of that effort.

The author of this proposal cannot deny that it would be inflicting this UNID card system as a replacement for our current system of issuing visas. It may not change anything with regard to the policies of Herconia, but it would certainly change ours. We will not accept that under any circumstances.

We have repeatedly stated that we believe the high costs of implementing this proposal would far outweigh any benefits that might accrue. The author has never bothered to respond. We see no reason why possessing one of these ID cards would be any easier for the traveler than possessing a valid passport. We've waited patiently for the author to present valid arguments stating the positive benefits of the proposal. We're still waiting, but not with bated breath.

Balthasar H. von Aschenbach
Prime Minister

Merely speaking for Herconia, we don't have visa's. Moreover we don't accept any citizen's from outside the Heartland (the region I'm in). This proposal will change nothing about that. The proposal WILL make it easier for citizens from Heartland nations that joined the UN to identify themselves when they enter or are in our country.

With respect, the wording of this proposal ensures that the happy situation that Herconia find itself in will not continue. Herconia will have visas. Moreover, those visas will not be issued by Herconia, but by other nations across the UN. Since a visa is by definition an authenticated travel paper, Herconia's immigration policy will be voided at a stroke.

Please also note the use of the apostrophe in the above paragraph.

I might be mistaken but to this day I don't believe there is a resolution stating the UN getting any funding from taxes etc. It would therefor not be possible for the UN to pay for them...

Crap, you didn't fall for my trap.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

At that moment music (http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/sony/ps1/ff8intro.mid) echoed throughout the room and Brandon Flibble, the Grand Poobah of The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites, strode into the room.

"Hi everybody! I was suffering from insomnia, so I started watching this discussion on UN-SPAN and then I heard about this.
The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.I've got a simple two word response for this idea, HELL NO. We have no intention of letting the UN tell us that we have to let every Tom, Dick, and Kennyite into our nation just because they have some stupid card. We have standards you know.

Brandon Flibble
Grand Poobah of The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites

It is not a bad Idea but I don't think it is reasonable to produce over 10 billion cards.

Shit, this thing's hit quorum.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Sigh ... this is the risk you take when you criticize newcomers' proposals on the forums. Either they take your advice and fix their proposals, or they defy your criticism and rush to quorum. Sadly this author has elected the latter course. Barring any circumstances under which this is removed from the floor before it gets to vote, the Federal Republic will steadfastly OPPOSE this measure.

Cdr. Jenny Chiang
Deputy ambassador to the United Nations

We take great pleasure in knowing that the Cobdenian proposal will in effect nullify this one, and thus this proposal will be quickly repealed (if it isn't defeated outright, which would be nice - or if it isn't pulled, which would be nicer).

http://test256.free.fr/UN%20Cards/quorumno2xh.png

The UNID card system replaces any sort of Visa system in use for international travel in UN nations.

We will not support this proposal, regardless of our opinion concerning the rest of the text, because of this clause. There is no point for this type of sovereignty infringement.

Vance Aceon
Deputy Presiding Jevian UN Representative

AUGGGH NOOO

Eric Lattener
Ambassador to the UN

I need 10ml of diazepam, stat!

Dr. Nicholas Tung
Director of Anaesthesizing the UN Delegation

Considering how messy this thread is, I'm gonna start a new one (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=538383) for the vote.

We the people of Sacaria strongly oppose this resolution.

If our government feels the need to supply our citizens with a national ID card, then we will do so by ourselves. Our King feel this gives the U.N. to much authority over his people, Sacarian domestic affairs, and we feel it restricts too many political freedoms. The Kingdom of Sacaria will withdrawl from the U.N. if this resolution is passed.

Dimitri Alvarez
Sacarian U.N. embassador