NationStates Jolt Archive

Greetings, honorable brethren.

Can someone answer me this question: "How it the NSUN Funded?"

*crickets chirp*

I didn't think so. I've pored through resolutions & "The Rules" and have not come up with anything. And honestly, I hate the "how are we going to fund this" excuse more then any other.

So, I want to shut those naysayers up forever. And I invite them to this conference.

The mission of this conference is to develop a resolution that can fund the United Nations and budget funds to meet the needs of our resolutions. Perhaps by creating the "NSUN Financal Management Board" who collects the funds, and appropriately budgets and adminsters the fund.

Because seriously, if I hear another "How are we going to pay for that", I'm going to send my special "Catboi Emasculation Squad" to torture the honorable delagate.

Thank you.

I agree with everything you've just said. 76% of the UN doesn't. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=527018) The Karmicarian proposal seemed basically sensible: the main issue seems how to package it in such a way that it will be deemed acceptable to voters. I'm going to, once again, repeat my suggestion that by taking an anti-corruption line and emphasising that small, flat, mandatory donations preclude the need for bigger, voluntary donations from lobbyists and interest groups and can thereby promote UN neutrality.

-- Samantha Benson
Congressional Liaison
Quintessential Department of UN Affairs

I was completely ok with the UNFA re-draft.
What happened to it?


M. Diegaus III
RFGI Rep

I can only surmise the UN has been funded for the past five or so years by donations from the small group of nations regularly seen at the UN.

The biggest problem i think with the funding so far is that as soon as the silent majority sees the word "tax" they start ranting on how it violates sovereignty and saying it violates UNR #4 UN Taxation Ban.

Richard York
UN Ambassador

Good. Because the word "tax" has never appeared, either in the former draft or the redraft. I'm inclined to agree with the angle to frame the redraft as an anti-corruption scheme, possibly dressing it up with a snappy new title that avoids talk of "funding." Something like "Fiscal Responsibility Act," or "UN Maintenance Program."

~some State Department hack

Until the debate regarding this issue was noticed very recently by yours truly, I held the firm belief that the spontaneously emerging gnomes discharging the duties associated with the daily workings of the UN did so for free.

If this is indeed the case, then the question of how the UN shall be founded seems to be resolved by the zero option.

~some State Department hack

OOC: Hack? You took over Kenny?

IC: Well, simply put, the UN isn't funded.

*clears throat*

Until the debate regarding this issue was noticed very recently by yours truly, I held the firm belief that the spontaneously emerging gnomes discharging the duties associated with the daily workings of the UN did so for free.

If this is indeed the case, then the question of how the UN shall be founded seems to be resolved by the zero option.
This is 'indeed' not the case. It is also highly simplistic, since it ignores the resolutions which make nations pay for new national departments, bureaux, commissions and the like, communications costs such as power for servers and stationary for letters, physical costs associated with resolutions, grants, building maintenance...

A wise man once noted that there's no such thing as a free lunch. You've just gone down in my estimation for wanting one.

This is 'indeed' not the case. It is also highly simplistic, since it ignores the resolutions which make nations pay for new national departments, bureaux, commissions and the like, communications costs such as power for servers and stationary for letters, physical costs associated with resolutions, grants, building maintenance...

"To pay" means to cover the costs. If the gnomes work for free, then paying means doing nothing. Other expenses associated with the work of the UN are also intrinsically paid for, since natural resources, raw materials, production, distribution, retail, and services associated with the UN are all provided by voluntary gnomes too.

A wise man once noted that there's no such thing as a free lunch. You've just gone down in my estimation for wanting one.

I shall not raise doubts as to the extent of the wisdom of wise men, though I must emphasize the fact the free lunches do indeed exist. I've had a few myself, and most of them actually were rather good. The concept is recommendable.

I was completely ok with the UNFA re-draft.
What happened to it?


M. Diegaus III
RFGI Rep

Will someone answer my freakin question?

Wouldn't a UN tax be a game-mechanics violation of some kind? I'm not sure so I'm just throwin it out there as a question.

Also, how exactly would a UN tax be enforced? I thought the UN could not have a standing military or police force.

Just voicing some concerns about this, some questions I'd like answered.

I'm glad everyone has decided to read the word "tax" and ignore everything else that has been said. We're not debating taxing anyone; we're debating member dues, which would go toward funding UN operations. This would not violate game mechanics, as the funding program would only be assumed to exist in the RP sense. We wouldn't actually have to change anything in the game to accomplish this. Why? Because the contributions from member nations would be so paltry they would create barely a blip in national budget calculations. Besides, as far as I know, the game only estimates budget-spending percentages, not the hard budget figures that unofficial instruments (like NSDossier) report.

How should the NSUN be funded?

I propose a mock football wedding, using various delegates from this august body and shown around the world and beyond on pay per view. We can even add a few Gilbert and Sullivan musical numbers as well.

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL291/1756382/3378396/41447577.jpg

The gnome-argument aside, it would seem fair to assume that NSUN is founded by member fees, private donations, and investments.

I humbly support a "membership fee" instead of a "tax".

However, we could repeal the UN Taxation Ban... and replace it with the UN Membership Tax. This tax would not be subject to change and would remain at a stable percentage of a nation's GDP (it would also be the only tax - this could be listed in the legislation). The flip side to this is that those nations who do not wish to pay would be showing that they do not care about cooperating to improve the world, but are there for their own political reasons. There should be no objection to a simple fund for the UN! Otherwise, we just have a UN that has resolutions it can't implement. This certainly cannot be argued to be a "hardship" since it is so little to pay.

Another way you could see it is that, in essence, the UN is all of the nations combined anyways. Since the UN is representing each nation, in theory, then every nation is simply paying for continued representation. The UN is NOT a government - so therefore it DOES have the ability to charge for its services without it being considered a "tax".

So, with all these options, I would prefer another attempt at a slightly revised version of the Karmicarian proposal (cosmetic mainly). I believe if we try to bring it up as less of a tax and more of a necessary fee, more nations should accept it.

No matter what you decide, my country is behind you 100%.

Best Regards
Jónas Ernst
General Ambassador

The gnome-argument aside, it would seem fair to assume that NSUN is founded by member fees, private donations, and investments.

There aren't any member fees. That would be what this whole argument is about. At the moment we get by on what a few nations drop in the pickle barrel in the corner (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12670838&postcount=186).

However, we could repeal the UN Taxation Ban... and replace it with the UN Membership Tax.

1) You, like everyone else, fail at actually reading the UN Taxation Ban.

2) Barring terminology (i.e. not using the word 'tax'), and with a lot more assurances of fiscal responsibility, that's exactly what the last attempt was. The nations that "do not wish to pay" didn't care that they "would be showing that they do not care about cooperating to improve the world, but are there for their own political reasons." You are preaching to the converted here, and rubbing salt into the wounds while you're at it.

Excuse me but I have read it... let's repeal it... its ONE LINE. How can we commit the UN to such patheticness because of ONE LINE of law that should not even have been passed!?

We could repeal it just for the sake of being so... broad, for crying out loud! The strength should be "massive"... it cripples the UN - therefore all member nations. They should understand that by not contributing, it simply is making things worse.

If you really wanted to you could try to pass a UN tax bill and hope the "good" nations beat the "bad" nations. Of course I would be voting with the Bad nations!

"You... you... twit! The UN Taxation ban prevents us taxing CITIZENS directly. Not from taxing the nations! This has been discussed time and time again, and that is the accepted determination! It's one of the few one-liners that work FINE! The UN should NEVER be dealing with a single individual."

*Leetha strolls past the Wolf Guardian and Genoshan Isles tables, dropping mild sedatives surreptitiously into their water pitchers*

The Wolf Guardians;12891308']"You... you... twit! The UN Taxation ban prevents us taxing CITIZENS directly. Not from taxing the nations! "Frustrating isn't it, Guardian. Perhaps if we sell t-shirts in the gift shop with the text of UNR#4..?

Will someone answer my freakin question?We don't believe it was ever submitted, but we might be mistaken. Perhaps you should (politely) contact Karmicaria and express interest?

There aren't any member fees. That would be what this whole argument is about. At the moment we get by on what a few nations drop in the pickle barrel in the corner (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12670838&postcount=186).Well, that and what the gnomes manage to liberate from our treasuries. We'd be much happier if the little buggers didn't have to do that.

Leetha Talone,
UN Ambassador

Oh... well then I misunderstood it.

*reads resolutions again* Wow... I feel stupid now. :eek:

Okay. So then why hasn't this other thing passed?It should be easy then, shouldn't it?

Simply put, How are you going get money and get the members to vote for it?

"Many of the other members don't wish to pay the miniscule amount it asks them to. Or are you referring to the most recent draft?"

Both

Hasn't the UN banned slavery? I would have thought that an army of gnomes doing all the admin work for the UN is a breach of this... although I suppose they could be metaphorical in a kind of 'I do all the work around here; I might as well be the UN's little army of gnomes!' sense.

I agree with trying to get a 'Maintenance Programme' passed. I'm fairly certain it wouldn't break any rules. If anything, it enforces the rule preventing a resolution from hindering or preventing any future action of the UN by ensuring no future resolutions have this tedious arguement over funding. What's the point of being in the UN if you're not prepared to give a small amount to a resolution you favour? The way I see it, if you won't provide some funds and you keep going on about how the UN 'doesn't respect national sovereignity' and only exists to 'steal power' then you can stay out! The whole point of a UN is an ALLIANCE anyway, not world government.

A wise man once noted that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

As Alan Guth once said: "It is said that there's no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch."

There aren't any member fees.

"Hmmph! That isn't what those *(mutters something in Carib)* Gnomes told us back when St Edmund originally signed on as a member of this organisation. We've been paying assessed annual fees, in monthly instalments, ever since then..."

Alfred Devereux Sweynsson MD,
Ambassador to the United Nations
for
The Protectorate of The St Edmundan Antarctic
(And still, although hopefully not for much longer, required to wear this confounded penguin costume…)


________________________________________________________________

OOC: When the question of funding arose during the debate on some other proposal, several months before the UNFA was suggested, I simply took the existence of such fees -- presumably specified in whatever treaty our nations had to ratify in order to become members, along with the "Compliance with [the letter of ] all UN Resolutions is mandatory" rule and an IC version of the rules about the legality of proposals -- for granted. (And I wasn't the only person to do so, either, although the arrangement that 'Mikitivity' has with the UN apparently lets the Gnomes raise the level of their contributions whenever UN operations need more funds...)

Suppose a resolution concerning some kind of financing mechanism was proposed. Now, suppose that it was rejected by UN members because the mole sleeps tight. What would happen then?

That's right, absolutely nothing. The UN would continue to work as it always has (that is, since the rise of civilization in 2003, IIRC).

I therefore suggest that the belief that the gnomes work solely for pleasure, is adapted by those concerned with the well-being of the little buggers.

Is that... cookies?
:eek:
*munch*

Noticing the sudden fizziness of his water, the Ambassador reaches for the flask under his desk.

Well, it seems the representative from Karmicaria has disappeared from these hallowed halls.

Takes a long pull of the c***sucking, motherf***ing Jeremiah Weed

And again, I say, why hasn't someone else who is in better contact with the Karmicarian diplomat tried to resurrect the measure? I would happily endorse it, however my nation has lost Delegate-status since our fellow regional neighbor decided to get out of the UN.

-Man, I need water....-

He reaches for the sedative-added water unknowingly and takes a pull of that...

So....uh.....

The mix of alcohol and sediative overwhelms the Ambassador, and he passes out.

As Alan Guth once said: "It is said that there's no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch."

I haven't heard of this Mr Guth. It sounds like he's conveniently failing to notice the price that the universe exacts for doing anything.

I haven't heard of this Mr Guth. It sounds like he's conveniently failing to notice the price that the universe exacts for doing anything.

This seems to be a great occasion to present the observation that the entropy of a given dish is proportional to how well the dish tastes. If it's a mess, it's good.

This seems to be a great occasion to present the observation that the entropy of a given dish is proportional to how well the dish tastes. If it's a mess, it's good.

As strange as this may seem, it may actually be true*. As order always turns to chaos as time progresses, food will get messier and tastier with time. It should also become less dense and greater in volume, allowing a greater number of larger mouthfulls. Isn't my twisted version of science and logic tasty? Yum!

*Errr...

Okay, so here's how the UN is currently being funded:

1) Rather large income from the Stranger's Bar. You are charged money for whatever you do there, including moving your seat or entering the bar.
2) Some $3.5 billion that was donated by myself and many gracious others during the original debate for the UN Funding Act.

Now, this is obviously going to be a problem in the future, but $3.5 billion is somewhat hard to spend quickly.

~Dr. Jules Hodz
Benefactor to the UN
Wondering why he didn't get honored in some way

I agree that our membership fees should cover our expenses.

What would a fair assessment of membership fees though?

*groans* I don't even want to begin to think about how a fee would be standardized based upon our major differences in currency. The Sovereign Principality's currency is based upon energy, while most of our neighbors is based upon gold.

So...we let the gnomes do it for us. They can compile a budget for what resolutions we pass and how much funding is needed. They assess us members fee annually.

How, the only hard part is how would we fairly assess fees. My suggestion is they are scaled upon the population of each member nation.

For example, your nation has 3% of the population of all the NSUN combined nations, you are paying for 3% of the budget of the NSUN.

Okay, so here's how the UN is currently being funded:

1) Rather large income from the Stranger's Bar. You are charged money for whatever you do there, including moving your seat or entering the bar.
2) Some $3.5 billion that was donated by myself and many gracious others during the original debate for the UN Funding Act.

Now, this is obviously going to be a problem in the future, but $3.5 billion is somewhat hard to spend quickly.

~Dr. Jules Hodz
Benefactor to the UN
Wondering why he didn't get honored in some way
I remembered when UN gnomes and 'volunteer' UN delegation staff had those garage sales and bake sales to make a few bucks. Chef Sven's cookies and pastries were good. *stomach grumbles*

Thank you Dr. Hodz for donating a fortune. Now I won't have to throw in a few of my hoodies on them garage sales... *hungers for a cookie*

Kyle di Fontana
The Teenager at the Nord-Brutlandese Delegation to the UN

I agree that our membership fees should cover our expenses.

What would a fair assessment of membership fees though?

*groans* I don't even want to begin to think about how a fee would be standardized based upon our major differences in currency. The Sovereign Principality's currency is based upon energy, while most of our neighbors is based upon gold.

So...we let the gnomes do it for us. They can compile a budget for what resolutions we pass and how much funding is needed. They assess us members fee annually.

How, the only hard part is how would we fairly assess fees. My suggestion is they are scaled upon the population of each member nation.

For example, your nation has 3% of the population of all the NSUN combined nations, you are paying for 3% of the budget of the NSUN.


OOC: The problem is, that wouldn't work, from a game/coding point of view.

*hungers for a cookie*

*throws cookie out the door of the assembly*

~Dr. Jules Hodz
Is an expert
on cookies

*Leetha strolls past the Wolf Guardian and Genoshan Isles tables, dropping mild sedatives surreptitiously into their water pitchers*


"Good thing our nanosystems can filter that out. Incidentally, we are perfectly willing to support the UN by any means."

*throws cookie out the door of the assembly*
~Dr. Jules Hodz
Is an expert
on cookies
Oh no! That was one of my favorite vegetarian chocolate chip cookies! :(

Kyle di Fontana
The Teenager at the Nord-Brutlandese Delegation to the UN

PS. Won't the UN Building Management get you for littering?

PS. Won't the UN Building Management get you for littering?

If they started fining people for littering, we wouldn't be having this conference.

*chomps fudge stripe cookie*

If they started fining people for littering, we wouldn't be having this conference.

*chomps fudge stripe cookie*
AHA! Another source of funding!! :p

*mouth still watering*

Seriously, though, we must find a source of funding. Even though we have bake sales and Dr. Hodz' donation, the UN income is unstable.

Kyle di Fontana
The Teenager at the Nord-Brutlandese Delegation to the UN

AHA! Another source of funding!! :p

*mouth still watering*

Seriously, though, we must find a source of funding. Even though we have bake sales and Dr. Hodz' donation, the UN income is unstable.

Kyle di Fontana
The Teenager at the Nord-Brutlandese Delegation to the UN

Well we know where we can get it, we just don't how we can get it. The UN has 23,600 something members and there are what, like 10 or 20 nations here trying foot the bill, lets have everyone pay a little. I guess this is our best bet and i quote:

I'm inclined to agree with the angle to frame the redraft as an anti-corruption scheme, possibly dressing it up with a snappy new title that avoids talk of "funding." Something like "Fiscal Responsibility Act," or "UN Maintenance Program."

Richard York
UN Ambassador

A suggestion: The UN establishes an international banking service which provides loans to developing nations, adding the revenues from this to the UN treasury.

The loans benefit nations in need, the nations pay them back when they get on their feet, and the UN has more funds to deal wtih.

(OOC: Of course, this would be a purely theoretical mechanism, since neither of the above is implementable in the game.)

OOC: The problem is, that wouldn't work, from a game/coding point of view.



*throws cookie out the door of the assembly*

~Dr. Jules Hodz
Is an expert
on cookies

OOC: True. There'd be no way to enforce it In-game coding wise except through standard resolutions. But we leave it to the Gnomes to collect the dues and apply them where its needed, and it works out anyhow though. We just need the resolution authorizing the gnomes to collect member dues.

My suggestion is they are scaled upon the population of each member nation.

For example, your nation has 3% of the population of all the NSUN combined nations, you are paying for 3% of the budget of the NSUN.

It's a nice idea, but I don't like it based on population. It wouldn't be fair to have a poor nation with several billion people being charged more than a smaller, but much richer, nation.

I think the three main problems are these:
1) People don't like paying for the UN,

2) The charges (or whatever we're calling them) may fall unfairly,

3) Nobody is sure how much the UN will actually need.

So, my solutions are:

1) We, as previously suggested, disguise the fact that nations will have to pay and make sure that it doesn't sound much (which it shouldn't be with about 23600 UN nations),

2) Give out the charges on an economic basis (perhaps based on GDP as this takes into account the population as well?),

3) Suggestion A) This may sound silly, but perhaps the UN sould have some sort of, well, credit card. Don't laugh just yet: The UN spends where it likes, however much it sees fit, in each of its various investments and committees etc. Then, at the end of the financial year, all the spendings will be calculated and charges, calculated from the nation's GDP (or other economic factor), will be sent to each nation as said in point 2.

Or, possibly, Suggestion B) Before each financial year, each UN body determines how much it wants to spend, and on what. It sends these proposals to the gnomes who decide if the ideas put forward are worth spending on. Then, the UN charges the nations appropriately (depending on how much the bodies want to spend) and give the budgets out fairly. If any bodies have surplus cash (shouldn't be too much with careful keeping to the agenda proposed and approved), this goes into the UN bank account (or vault, whatever it is). Any debts from bodies (which, again, shouldn't be too much if the body keeps to its approved agenda) are cleared using the surpluses gained from others. If after all this, the UN still has some money left, in it's next budget it can simply pretend it has already received partial payment and pass this saving on to nations. If the UN is still in debt, it simply charges a little more to make up.

Where I say financial year, by the way, it doesn't necessarily have to be a year (could be two years etc.), but some mutually agreed period of time.

Phew. I think a decent resolution can come out of that.

Or, possibly, Suggestion B) Before each financial year, each UN body determines how much it wants to spend, and on what. It sends these proposals to the gnomes who decide if the ideas put forward are worth spending on.YES! A committee to solve the funding problems of the committees! It's a perfect UN solution!

YES! A committee to solve the funding problems of the committees! It's a perfect UN solution!

I second this. Any other solution just would not be right! :D

Finally, someone got the point. We're not accountants or financial matter. ((And on an OOC note, there is no way to see financial data in game)) So, lets have our gnomes who seem to have all types of talents figure this out for us! They're impartial, fair, and can do anything, instantly!

and can do anything, instantly!

I'm not sure I agree. I sent a gnome out for a cup of tea in November; he still hasn't returned.

"So we have a classic case of let's solve our money problems by spending more?" :p

With all due respect to the Prince Royal, all of our nations are required to set our own individual budgets or drive ourselves into penury, so all of us have the level of financial skill required to consider the UN's budget. We cannot see how abrogating that duty can be viewed as a good thing.

Prince Rhodri, I respectfully disagree. The Sovereign Principality of New Avarin has well-managed budget. The government is not run by one person alone. While ultimate sovereignity is vested into my father, the Prince Sovereign, he understands that there are people more talented then Himself in matters of financial management, foreign policy, et cetera. I myself am talented at diplomatic relationships and assisting Him in setting Foreign Policy.

I think the phrase is, "No man is an island."

We are policy makers, not accountants, not financial managers.

To the Ambassador from Akimonad, I'm sure if we pass the Akimonad Tea Resolution, we'll get your tea forthwith. Until then, may I offer you one of New Avarin's most posessions, the Catboi. They make excellent domestic assistants. They do require some high quality cream though, and tunafish or salmon though in return.

Waking up from his long alcohol-assisted sleep....

Whaaaaa.....?
Oh hell, no more Jeremiah Weed for me.....

You know, the commitee idea is one with considerable merit, and could be resolutionised. What's more, we wouldn't even need to tell people how we are collecting the money

e.g.

FOUNDS the pointless comittee about money or something

CHARGES the PCAMOS to examine the budgetary requirements of all the various UN departments and relevent resolutions,

FURTHER CHARGES the PCAMOS to examine different options of revenue collection to fund such projects, and permits it to enact whichever method of revenue collection it deems most practical

So the actual method of funding is decided by gnomes, who don't tell anyone. Admittedly, this is conjuring images up in my head of gnomes collecting protection money, committing bank heists and pimping lady gnomes, but....hell...who cares?

YES! A committee to solve the funding problems of the committees! It's a perfect UN solution!

Five things:

1) This is the kind of thing that the UN would do in real life;
2) At least I'm trying (what's your solution?);
3) That was just a brainstorm, not a proposal;
4) I did give another, different way of solving that problem;
5) Uhhh... [must think of fifth point] um... no, you shut up.

I'm not sure I agree. I sent a gnome out for a cup of tea in November; he still hasn't returned.

He probably got shot by somebody or other from one of the Antarctic Oasis's nations...

Five things:

1) This is the kind of thing that the UN would do in real life;
2) At least I'm trying (what's your solution?);
3) That was just a brainstorm, not a proposal;
4) I did give another, different way of solving that problem;
5) Uhhh... [must think of fifth point] um... no, you shut up.6) Calm down; he was only joking.

YES! A committee to solve the funding problems of the committees! It's a perfect UN solution!

It's unfortunate that the irony here is going to be lost on the majority of this body...

Ailyn Vel (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/images/Ailyn.jpg)
New Vandalian Ambassador to the UN

Calm down; he was only joking.

OK, sorry. Over reacted a little. But the point still stands: nations don't care how the UN gets its money if we just create a new committee which 'has control over UN funding' and don't clearly tell them that the committee is actually taking their funds.

Mmmm... this roasted gnome is yummy. He even brought me a cup of tea before I had him cooked. I wonder why-... oops.

why does it even matter (the telling the nations part)/ Can't we just try to pass a bill that will set some sort of budget for the UN (I think there was one proposal somewhere near the beginning of this thread... why aren't we using that?) For something like this, I believe we need something detailed, but general. So, you are setting rules, but they stretch with the conditions of each nation.

Sorry for the necromancy....

Anyway, I haven't disappeared, just took a break. I have decided, against my better judgement to re-draft the UNFA (For those not familiar - United Nations Funding Act). I'm thinking a complete rewrite is in order.

If the modly ones don't mind, I'll resurrect my original thread where the drafting took place and go from there.

The UN needs funding that doesn't rely on donations. No, there will be no taxing of Nations. There never was.

I just knew you had a hidden agenda when you came up with that damned necrophilia resolution!

If you're digging the other one up I'll close this one, then.