NationStates Jolt Archive

The NSUN has grown large enough to require money. However, taxation is not very...popular. Meanwhile, there are small countries that need help and aid. Therefore, I propose that the NSUN set up a bank by which it is able to make money through investing in its memberstates. The Memberstate beniefts, and so does the NSUN. This would be a great way of avoiding memberstates from being taxed, and actually helps them grow in their economy, while helping the NSUN grow in its economy as well...

The NationStates United Nations

NOTING its support for all Nationstates the right to development,

RECOGNIZING that many member states are new and developing nations who require economic aid in order to prosper,

ALSO RECOGNIZING that several member states suffers from wars and natural disasters that would cost lots of money for reconstruction,

DISAPPOINTED in the lack of forigen aid to these deserving nations,

REALIZING that the United Nations, due to its lack of resources, cannot go and give out foriegn aid in place of these nations,

ALSO REALIZING that the United Nations do not have any source of permenant income to rely on in funding all its programs,

STATING its resolve in order to resolve both problems and to help out all countries everywhere,

Hereby Resolves:

1) ESTABLISHES the "International NationStates Bank", an online bank which
handles all transactions of money wirelessly, and which deals only with NationStates.

2) ALLOWS all Member States the right to establish accounts at the International NationStates Bank, and states that all NationStates that wish to store money within the INB will receive a 5% interest rate per year.

3) GRANTS the "International Nationstates Bank" the right to loan money to other Member State, and places the following rules in place:
(a)Each Memberstate is allowed to submit paperwork to the International NationStates Bank in order to apply for a loan.
(b)Loan applications may be accepted or declined by the "International NationStates Bank" based on their ability to repay, the current economic need for this aid, and the amount of money requested for the loan.
(c)The International NationStates Bank is allowed to loan three types of loans, with the following framework:
(i)Short-term loans, 5 years, 1 Payment per year, 8% interest rate per year
(ii)Medium-term loans, 10 years, 1 Payment per year, 6% interest rate per year
(iii)Long-term Loans, 15 years, 1 payment per year, 4% interest rate per year
(d)On request, the International NationStates Bank can decrease the amount of interest they charge to the NationState requesting the Loan, based on the Nationstate's previous payment history, the extent of the damage done to the NationState that may limit the NationState's ability to repay, and its status as a new and developing nation.
(e)The International NationState Bank cannot increase the amount of interest they charge to the NationState requesting the loan.
(f)If a Nationstate misses 2 payments in a row, the International Nationstates Bank may ask that NationState premission to send it an economic advisor to help that Nationstate out in repaying its loan. The Nationstate has a right to refuse this advisor.
(g)If a Nationstate defaults on the loan, the International Nationstates Bank may blacklist that Nationstate, refusing to loan any more to that NationState. The Nationstate must request premission from the International NationStates Bank to reverse its stance if it ever wants to submit a loan application again.

4)ALLOWS the International NationState Bank to make economic investments in Member States, with the consent of said Member State, to help the Member State gain in economic growth.

5)MANADATES that at least 25% of all profit made by the International NationState Bank be donated to all other United Nations programs, and the rest be reinvested back into helping the International NationState Bank help out Member States grow economically.

Clause 3 is a bit too large, and I'll need to find some way to make it...less...wordy. Any help? (Clause 5 is where the NSUN receives its money from this program)

OOC: If you intend this to have an actual effect in terms of game mechanics then it's illegal...

(OOC: It won't. All it really does is basically boost "Free Trade". In other words, just boost the economy of the UN Member States. It's just a Free Trade resolution with some regulations that are there for purely RP purposes. The NSUN for instance needs no money, due to the fact it has gnomes, but people do RP the NSUN as needing money, and Clause 5 is there to help in RPin the NSUN getting money.)

(OOC: It won't. All it really does is basically boost "Free Trade".It does?

"A resolution to reduce barriers to free trade and commerce."

I'm not seeing that in your draft.

It does?

"A resolution to reduce barriers to free trade and commerce."

I'm not seeing that in your draft.

Well, a barrier would be the lack of money to actually fund commerce in your nation, no? Many nations are poor, and with only a bit of aid, well-invested, these nations can go and be able to assist themselves via the funding commerce. By having the UN be able to loan money, you remove the barrier of poverty in preventing nations to fund commerce (and therby make it more effective), and help grow the economy.

If it turns out this isn't legal, I'll stop with this idea. But I want to check first, because it looks to be a good idea.

I'm not seeing it in your draft either.

Where are you getting your information? Have you compared every single member nation to come to the conclusion that many are poor?

Also, I may be reading your draft wrong or just tired, but doesn't this effect (or attempt to) game mechanics? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I may be reading your draft wrong or just tired, but doesn't this effect (or attempt to) game mechanics? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Main goal is to go and act as "fluff" and RP purposes, it does not change game mechanics in any way. All it would do is increase the economy of a nation, as it is a Free Trade resolution, altough that may not be the case...

But you know, you are probraly right in the regard that it might not fit in Free Trade, and that many nations may not be poor. I have saw some nations do have a low economy, and thought the UN could intervene to help those nations out, while making money. Still, it could be illegal, and it might not be acceptable, so I guess it might not work.

Any ideas for fixing this?

Main goal is to go and act as "fluff" and RP purposes, it does not change game mechanics in any way. All it would do is increase the economy of a nation, as it is a Free Trade resolution, altough that may not be the case....

Okay, I can see that. I just wanted to make sure and thank you for clarifying that for me.

But you know, you are probraly right in the regard that it might not fit in Free Trade, and that many nations may not be poor. I have saw some nations do have a low economy, and thought the UN could intervene to help those nations out, while making money. Still, it could be illegal, and it might not be acceptable, so I guess it might not work.

Any ideas for fixing this?

No, I don't see how it would fit into the free trade category. I don't have any ideas for fixing it. Not right now anyway. I'll take a better look at it after I've gotten some much needed sleep.

I will tell you this, I like the concept.

Now that I check the list of categories, I could see it fit Social Justice (A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare) much more effectively. Throwing it in with Furtherment of Democracy (increasing democratic freedoms) has been done with a previous loan procedure, and it seemed to be fine, altough I have a feeling that would not work as well. [In what it currently is, though, prehaps with a bit more tweaking, it could, unlikely, fit itself into Free Trade]

I hope for your reply, Karmicaria. Thanks.

I think that if you want to make this free trade, calling it a bank might not be the best thing to do. Creating an exchange would be far better, the types of transaction, would be conversion between different currencies, wire transfer of money, and courier services involving stocks, bank notes, ownership papers between different nations. Kind of like a free western union for UN members.

If this is not going to effect the game mechanics then its all going to have to be controlled through a forum or something. If so who will have the responsibility to manage this. It appears to me that this will be a huge amount of work and very hard to impliment into the game. I dont see it working without it becoming part of the game mechanics and that isnt going to happen.

Well, the proposals look quite good.

i´ve formuled one

5. Affirms that this Institution has to observe the economic development of each region, making important its regional competence and will make new strategies for each country for it's development.

6. The INSB will depend of the UN and it will decide its organization, and it's control will be under a regional UN delegate elected every 60 days or the term in what all nations approve.

7. The INSB will have a special department for humanitarian issues

Well, the proposals look quite good.

i´ve formuled one

5. Affirms that this Institution has to observe the economic development of each region, making important its regional competence and will make new strategies for each country for it's development.
So the UN gets to dictate the economic strategies of an entire region while still extracting unaffordable interest from a single nation? We think not.

6. The INSB will depend of the UN and it will decide its organization, and it's control will be under a regional UN delegate elected every 60 days or the term in what all nations approve.
Mercifully this is obviously illegal (UN committees are staffed by gnomes and do not answer to any politician), so it is unnecessary to point out that the way this is phrased, the INSB gets to detemine the composition of the UN, not the other way round. That isn't going to stop us from saying it, however.

7. The INSB will have a special department for humanitarian issues
...but it will have no mandate to act upon such issues, apparently.

We are not overly enamoured of the original proposals, but these additions are nonsensical.

I think that if you want to make this free trade, calling it a bank might not be the best thing to do. Creating an exchange would be far better, the types of transaction, would be conversion between different currencies, wire transfer of money, and courier services involving stocks, bank notes, ownership papers between different nations. Kind of like a free western union for UN members.

Much better idea. It would fit in with Free Trade and help out economies. Gnomes need excerise you know. :) I'll draft something like that if I ever have time.

If this is not going to effect the game mechanics then its all going to have to be controlled through a forum or something. If so who will have the responsibility to manage this. It appears to me that this will be a huge amount of work and very hard to impliment into the game. I dont see it working without it becoming part of the game mechanics and that isnt going to happen.

Two words: UN gnomes. Once a resolution is adopted, the gnomes come in to get the resolution 'enforced'. No human player has to be here to do it, we just 'assume' it is being done.
---
The bank idea also seem to reach a dead-end, the worry of interests being too high for a single nation might be terrible, and altough I could just make it more general and on a case-by-case basis, the resolution is also illegal due to not fitting a catogery.

As a member-by-blood of the Banking Guild of Emen and Un, I am steadfastly opposed to the very concept of an international bank. You're just trying to put us out of business!

~ Sebastian Ennuk

Being that our official policy is non-interventionism and protectionsism, we cannot support this measure.

Um, this is a bump, showcasing my interest in reviving this bill. Any ideas?

Yes. Drop it.

Um, this is a bump,

Bump? Try gravedig.

Bump? Try gravedig.

Given the low activity here, I actually appreciate seeing the original (short) thread and comments from other players, and thus welcome what really feels more like a bump.

I think a gravedig is more when somebody brings up a thread that is used in a negative connotation. For example, if I were to reply to some thread where I wasn't the proponent of something only to say, "Look at what this fool proposed", that would be more a gravedig.

That said, if there have been changes, it might be nice in the "bump" post to say something like, "Hey, I didn't make any changes" or "I made some small changes".

Well, I am possibly going to change it from a 'bank' to a 'market' to ease everyone's concern. And my main goal is to find a way to ensure NSUN can make some money off this, in order to help fund all its programs (for RP purposes).

oooww, so now we got an International bank...

would you allow me to deposit my currency in the bank?

Ideas for reducing characters:

Currently, you refer UN member nations as a 'Nationstate'. You could call it a 'UN Member Nation', while you can rename the 'International NationStates Bank' the 'International Bank'

Renaming the bank saves you 13 characters for each instance of the INB.

If you introduce the renamed "International Bank" with and abbreviation next to it (INB, for example), you don't have to repeat the long-hand name often.

if this is a proposal to introduce a bank into the game, don't make it a proposal, but feel free to put through as a suggestion for future updates to NationsStates (if any).

would you allow me to deposit my currency in the bank?

Yes. However, I am likely going to rename the bank to become a Development Project, in order to avoid confusion. You can loan money to the Project, so it is like depoisitng currency.
***
Here's a revamp, that makes it clear that this does not cause any new gameplay mechanic, and takes out the confusing term of "bank".

Social Justice: Significant

NOTING its support for all Nationstates the right to development,

RECOGNIZING that many member states are new and developing nations who require economic aid in order to prosper,

ALSO RECOGNIZING that several member states suffers from wars and natural disasters that would cost lots of money for reconstruction,

DISAPPOINTED in the lack of forigen aid to these deserving nations,

REALIZING that the United Nations, due to its lack of resources, cannot go and give out foriegn aid in place of these nations,

ALSO REALIZING that the United Nations do not have any source of permenant income to rely on in funding all its programs,

STATING its resolve in order to resolve both problems and to help out all countries everywhere,

Hereby Resolves:

1) ESTABLISHES the "International Development Project", an organization dedicated to promoting welfare for all UN Member Nation.

2) ALLOWS all Member States the right to establish accounts at the IDP, and states that all NationStates that wish to invest money into the IDP will receive a 5% interest rate per year.

3) GRANTS the IDP the right to loan money to other Member State, and places the following rules in place:
(a)Each Memberstate is allowed to submit paperwork to the IDP in order to apply for a loan.
(b)Loan applications may be accepted or declined by the IDP based on their ability to repay, the current economic need for this aid, and the amount of money requested for the loan.
(c)The IDP is allowed to loan three types of loans, with the following framework:
(i)Short-term loans, 5 years, 1 Payment per year, 8% interest rate per year
(ii)Medium-term loans, 10 years, 1 Payment per year, 6% interest rate per year
(iii)Long-term Loans, 15 years, 1 payment per year, 4% interest rate per year
(d)On request, the IDP can decrease the amount of interest they charge to the NationState requesting the Loan, based on the Nationstate's previous payment history, the extent of the damage done to the NationState that may limit the NationState's ability to repay, and its status as a new and developing nation.
(e)The IDP cannot increase the amount of interest they charge to the NationState requesting the loan.
(f)If a Nationstate misses 2 payments in a row, the IDP may ask that NationState premission to send it an economic advisor to help that Nationstate out in repaying its loan. The Nationstate has a right to refuse this advisor.
(g)If a Nationstate defaults on the loan, the IDP may blacklist that Nationstate, refusing to loan any more to that NationState. The Nationstate must request premission from the IDP to reverse its stance if it ever wants to submit a loan application again.

4)ALLOWS the IDP to make economic investments in Member States, with the consent of said Member State, to help the Member State gain in economic growth.

5)MANADATES that at least 25% of all profit made by the IDP be donated to all other United Nations programs, and the rest be reinvested back into helping the IDP help out Member States grow economically.

Well if you accept my currency, I'll eventually run out again, so I'll have to find an immoral nation to declare him an enemy to replenish my currency.

I'll get back to you on that.

First, we must perforce observe that "spellcheck" is your friend, and we strongly suggest you become better acquainted to reduce the amount of giggling in our delegation. We confess that this inappropriate merriment is distracting us from more pertinent analysis of this document.

Second, we are in awe of the level of economic science that allows the author to determine that just three types of loan, of fixed durations and interest rates, are sufficient to meet the needs of all nations for all time. We are not nearly so confident, given that the author has not seen fit to share their analysis with us.

We would also like to be told who will pay when, not if, the IDP goes into deficit attempting to pay the annual interest to its depositors.

Our overall recommendation cannot be more succinctly expressed than the delegation from Snefaldia has already done: drop it.

Other folk've covered the "don't use the word 'nationstates'" thing, not for any other reason than that it's clumsy.

It's an extremely nuanced piece of legislation where a simpler and broader version would suffice. I'm trying to think up resolutions that would allow funding of the UN as well. This is not it however. Keep working on your proposals though.

I would endorse a NS bank. Central Banks encourage growth within member States, we have higher GDPs as a result and we're able to purchase more goods and invest more elsewhere. All Nations win.

We should have a Central Bank for each region and a UN Central Bank to work with the entire World.

I would endorse a bank, but I would also like to be able to declare bankruptcy on nations that defaults to owe us money, like the small unamed nation over the M20.

Well finances are not are schtick, we do battle, so hopefully if there is ever a bank, I hope we can find decent and honest financial advisers in there.

A bump with a new draft.

NOTING the importance of the development of all nations,

RECOGNIZING that many member states are new and developing nations who require economic aid in order to prosper,

ALSO RECOGNIZING the enourmous financial burden post-conflict & post-natural disaster reconstruction brings to several member states,

DISAPPOINTED in the lack of foreign aid for these nations,

REALIZING that the United Nations, due to its lack of resources, cannot take this task upon itself,

ALSO REALIZING that the United Nations does not have any source of permanent income to rely on in funding all its programs,

STATING its resolve in order to resolve both problems and to help out all countries everywhere,

1) ESTABLISHES the "International Development Project", an organization dedicated to promoting welfare for all UN Member Nations.

2) GRANTS all Member States the right to donate or to loan money to IDP.

3) ALLOWS the IDP to loan money to Member States, according to the following restrictions:
(a)The exact terms of the loan will be decided in negotiations between the IDP and the Member States requesting the loan.
(b)The IDP, in these negotiations, must take into account factors such as the applicant's previous payment history, the extent of the damage done to the applicant that may limit its ability to repay, and the applicant's status as a developing nation, when deciding any payment plan and interest rates.
(c)If a Member State misses payments regularly, the IDP may ask permission to send it an economic advisor to help that Member State in repaying its loan. The Member State has a right to refuse this advisor.
(d)If a Member State defaults on the loan, the IDP may blacklist that nation, refusing to make any more loans to that Member State. The Member State must request permission from the IDP to reverse its stance if it ever wants to request for a loan again.

4)ALLOWS the IDP to make economic investments in Member States, with the consent of said Member States, to help the economic growth of these Member States.

5)MANDATES that at least 25% of all profit made by the IDP be donated to all other United Nations programs, and the rest be reinvested back into helping the IDP help out Member States grow economically.

we're seriously considering looking into this financial thingie, there seems to be a lot of competition in there worthy of joining in the battle.... lying and cheating or as it is diplomatically called "wheeling and dealing"... Seems more fun than poker!!! Snazzy stuff to get into!

I like it you got my endorsement

This is developing towards an idea we floated some considerable while ago, although with a different intent and thus different safeguards. We offer our last draft for the author to pick over, in case it may be of help:


Category: Social Justice
Strength: Mild

PROPOSED:

NOTING that the gulf between rich and poor nations can be fully as great as that between rich and poor individuals,

UNDERSTANDING that the richer a nation is, the more it is likely to contribute to international trade,

BELIEVING that increased international trade in turn contributes to the increased wealth of all,

DESIRING therefore to encourage industry and commerce in all member nations,

The United Nations

1. ESTABLISHES the United Nations Economic Development Fund (hereinafter UNEDF),

2. MANDATES the UNEDF to collect charitable donations from those member nations minded to give, and to provide grants from this fund to member nations minded to apply for the development of their economic infrastructure,

3. REQUIRES the UNEDF to monitor the use of all grant money provided, to ensure that it is only used for economic development,

3a. MANDATES therefore that all grant proposals be accompanied by a written agreement fully describing of the intended use of the money, to be negotiated between the UNEDF and the recipient nation, so that adequate monitoring can take place,

3b. REQUIRES grant-aided member nations to cooperate fully in the abovementioned monitoring,

3c. EMPOWERS the UNEDF to demand the return of any grant money it determines has not been spent in accordance with the abovementioned agreement,

4. CHARGES the UNEDF to prioritise member nations whose economic infrastructures are most in need of aid when considering grant applications,

5. CHARGES further that the UNEDF supply expert economic advice to nations applying for grants, carefully considering the specific circumstances of each nation, both in order to most effectively use any monies received and for the general improvement of their economies,

6. URGES applicant nations to seriously consider the advice given by the UNEDF,

7. EMPOWERS the UNEDF to collect examples of good practice in economic development at all levels, and to distribute such examples as may be relevant to member governments and industries,

8. ENCOURAGES all member nations to provide what aid they can to the UNEDF, whether financial or informational, for the enrichment of all.

More pertinantly to the current proposal, we would ask for more clarity on loans and donations from member nations. We feel it needs to be explicit that the terms of loans be agreed between the IDP and the donor state, and that the IDP be free to reject loans the servicing of which it considers places an unsafe burden on its finances.

Well, how come changing the 'bank' words to 'market' makes any difference?

Well, how come changing the 'bank' words to 'market' makes any difference?

its part of the "wheeling and dealing" strategy where words don't really mean anything except to make you lose money to the better lawyer.


More pertinantly to the current proposal, we would ask for more clarity on loans and donations from member nations. We feel it needs to be explicit that the terms of loans be agreed between the IDP and the donor state, and that the IDP be free to reject loans the servicing of which it considers places an unsafe burden on its finances.

The other countries can always donate money directly to my nation, thereby eliminating the middleman.

The other countries can always donate money directly to my nation, thereby eliminating the middleman.

But how do they know if you will use the money wisely? And what if they hate your nation? The Project can ensure money can more directly go to the people who need it most, and can may be able to guarrante a return.
***
Gobbannium: Your idea is going in my next draft, thanks.

Doing a test-run currently to see if the idea would pass:
http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=UN_proposal1/match=project

But how do they know if you will use the money wisely? And what if they hate your nation? The Project can ensure money can more directly go to the people who need it most, and can may be able to guarrante a return.
***
Gobbannium: Your idea is going in my next draft, thanks.

Doing a test-run currently to see if the idea would pass:
http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=UN_proposal1/match=project

How do we know that the ones donating the money can recognize wisdom enough to judge another's wisdom or lack thereof?

I'm wise enough to know that I do not need to prove my wisdom to anyone and should I try, I've just failed.

How do we know that the ones donating the money can recognize wisdom enough to judge another's wisdom or lack thereof?

The UN Gnomes are always wise and effienct to decide. How else can they force compliance in all memberstates?

In the Name of the Eternal Kawaii (mtCObp)

We have a request for a clarification. The listed category for this proposal is "Social Justice", meaning a resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare. However, do not Social Justice resolutions work to reduce inquality and increase welfare within a given NationState? The apparent intent of this proposal is to reduce inequality and increase welfare between NationStates. So, does the "Social Justice" category really apply here?

The UN Gnomes are always wise and effienct to decide. How else can they force compliance in all memberstates?

Well you originally mentioned a donating nation judging someone's intended spendings. But if you change the category of your own argument, I say this: "so the UN will donate money to me? if so, why do we even need a bank?"

Well, you were asking if those would run the GDP would do their job effectively (the UN Gnomes), and in the end, I think they do.

Think of it as a mutual fund. You want to make money, but at the same time, you don't want to do any research into where the money is going, or worried that you might make the wrong choice. In which case, the GDP exist that has contact with all UN nations and will be able to loan money to other nations.

Shogun, some time ago, I dropped the whole bank rhetoric. As for the giving of money, You must be confusing it with Gob. proposal to have the UN give money. My proposal have the GDP loaning money to you in the hope you will go and repay it back.

I really hope I am not confusing you or make you hate it. I mean, you might see it as useless, but other nations, who may be much more poorer than you are, may rely on this sort of help to rebuild. Er. Do you have MSN or AIM so which we can talk?

To TEK: Social Justice was the best fit we have. It creates a commitee, known as the GDP, which can be seen as government oversight, restricting free trade. Besides, the UN mod himself said that this idea doesn't actually free any sort of commerce or trade, thereby it will have to be social justice, if only by lessning income disaprity between nations and within nations.

Well finances are not are schtick, we do battle, so hopefully if there is ever a bank, I hope we can find decent and honest financial advisers in there.



I'm wonder how we would decide who's honest and worthy enough to be the financial advisers...

Well, you were asking if those would run the GDP would do their job effectively (the UN Gnomes), and in the end, I think they do.

Think of it as a mutual fund. You want to make money, but at the same time, you don't want to do any research into where the money is going, or worried that you might make the wrong choice. In which case, the GDP exist that has contact with all UN nations and will be able to loan money to other nations.

Shogun, some time ago, I dropped the whole bank rhetoric. As for the giving of money, You must be confusing it with Gob. proposal to have the UN give money. My proposal have the GDP loaning money to you in the hope you will go and repay it back.

I really hope I am not confusing you or make you hate it. I mean, you might see it as useless, but other nations, who may be much more poorer than you are, may rely on this sort of help to rebuild. Er. Do you have MSN or AIM so which we can talk?

To TEK: Social Justice was the best fit we have. It creates a commitee, known as the GDP, which can be seen as government oversight, restricting free trade. Besides, the UN mod himself said that this idea doesn't actually free any sort of commerce or trade, thereby it will have to be social justice, if only by lessning income disaprity between nations and within nations.

OOC-->not hating it, just playing devil's advocate. using the ShogunKhan role as a warrior society to push an alternate point of view... using silly humor to amuse and make a potentially valid point... they'll be integrating financial savvy into their culture soon, now that they've seen how it can be used as an alternate form of battle and prestige.... (their Wawis will implement financial manipulations as part of their advanced trainings) see post here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543917) for info on my obscure reference of the Wawi.

To TEK: Social Justice was the best fit we have. It creates a commitee, known as the GDP, which can be seen as government oversight, restricting free trade. Besides, the UN mod himself said that this idea doesn't actually free any sort of commerce or trade, thereby it will have to be social justice, if only by lessning income disaprity between nations and within nations.

I've got to agree with the Kawaiians here, this is NOT social justice. Furthermore, Hack commented on your original proposal, not the current version. From what I can see, there is no appropriate category for your proposal, and your attempts to shoehorn in into Social Justice failed. In fact, trying to shoehorn a proposal into a category usually fails, which is why Fris has said on numerous occasions that you should choose the category first, and then write the proposal to fit.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative