NationStates Jolt Archive

IC:

Sure lots of people hate the UN, but have they done anything about it? What are the more powerful, popular, large, etc. international organizations that non UN members contribute to?

-Disco U

OOC: Hi it's Discoraversalism. I forgot what lured me back here.

This is just inviting people to advertise their regions on here.

We inform the United Nations that The Free Land of Discoraversalism will no longer participate in its corrupt, hollow debates. Our nation is has left behind the local politics that is the NSUN and has renewed it's focus on global politics.

Ah, but if only you had truly left... *sigh*

Ah, but if only you had truly left... *sigh*I thought about saying something about that sig myself. The NSUN is the closest you can get to global politics in NS. It's very funny/dumb someone could get that confused and put it the opposite way round.

As for "corrupt" - I don't see anyone using the UN for personal gain - it's too big and too independent.

As for "hollow" - it's the only organisation that actually does do anything. All the rest could be considered roleplay wank (if you are feeling cynical).

So apart from everything about it being completely inaccurate, it's fine.

Originally Posted by Disco's sig
We inform the United Nations that The Free Land of Discoraversalism will no longer participate in its corrupt, hollow debates. Our nation is has left behind the local politics that is the NSUN and has renewed it's focus on global politics.

It would be nice if we could count on that, wouldn't it? It would sure eliminate a lot of the corrupt logic and hollow arguments.

Travilia E. Thwerdock
Ambassador to the United Nations

This is not designed to be adspam, but...there's always ACCEL, if you're conservative or libertarian.

I thought about saying something about that sig myself. The NSUN is the closest you can get to global politics in NS. It's very funny/dumb someone could get that confused and put it the opposite way round.

As for "corrupt" - I don't see anyone using the UN for personal gain - it's too big and too independent.

As for "hollow" - it's the only organisation that actually does do anything. All the rest could be considered roleplay wank (if you are feeling cynical).

So apart from everything about it being completely inaccurate, it's fine.

IC:

Hirota! I would gladly discuss this with you.

By far non UN members outnumber UN members, yes? How can you possibly claim the NSUN is global political organization? I don't see how it has much influence outside of the UN.

The world at large does not largely conform to UN politics.

I personally used the UN for political gain during my time there. When continued UN membership became an untenable political position to my constituents, I stopped my support, and the next UN Delegate for my Region didn't hold the post very long.

(I should have stated this earlier but my first post was IC too)

What does the NSUN do that has an impact outside the UN? I think the Economic and Military coalitions of the world have a power you are denying.

Sincerely,
Disco U

The NSUN influences 25% of the world. That's probably as "global" as this world will ever get. Unfortunately, for some unknown reason (OOC perhaps game mechanics) you often need UN status for regional politics, which leaves you open to the vast damage that their laws can do to your country.

This is not designed to be adspam, but...there's always ACCEL, if you're conservative or libertarian.

He hasn't a bloody clue what the hell he is, and neither does anyone else really.

The UN is the only game based organization with 100% good old fashioned stat wank. Many people complain about the small percentage of nations in the UN, but that's a meaningless notion. The UN is not based on "nations" but "players." Many players have multiple nations and only one can be in the UN at any given time. (There is a second factor in that it really breaks down to computers ... which limits participation among family members who only have one computer for example.)

If you drop stat wank, there are many regional and global role play avenues for your consideration. Several regions are big into the role play. Regional trading agreements, regional defense treaties and so forth.

By far non UN members outnumber UN members, yes?Yes, although no-one knows how many of those non-UN nations are puppets. How can you possibly claim the NSUN is global political organization? I don't see how it has much influence outside of the UN.What you have to consider is that you can only have one nation in the UN - if everyone has an additional 3 puppets, then clearly only 1/4 of nations could ever be in the UN. Therefore it's virtually impossible for the NS UN to ever claim 100% of nations as UN members. The game doesn't work that way.

Secondly, the NSUN is the only truly global organisation. What can other organisations do? Roleplay. No actual meaingful effects on nations. Everything is roleplayed. If that's binding on you because you think it is then great, but the reality of it is anything done by one of these mysterious organisations is meaningless. Only the UN has substance.

I personally used the UN for political gain during my time there.Which poses the obvious questions - is it the UN that's corrupt, or it's members? Secondly, did you and your political agenda actually make a bit of difference? Nope. Since you made no difference, what makes you think anyone else can use the UN for their own agenda? By it's own mechanics, the UN has to have a consensus of greater than 50% - I don't seriously think anyone could manipulate 5000 odd votes to bring about legislation furthering their own agenda.When continued UN membership became an untenable political position to my constituents,Ahhh, the truth of the matter. You position is you were unwilling to have others motives imprinted on your nation, whilst you were all too willing to do so yourself to other nations?

What does the NSUN do that has an impact outside the UN? I think the Economic and Military coalitions of the world have a power you are denying.It's the biggest trading bloc in NS, and the biggest military bloc in NS - all other organisations have memberships perhaps numbering in the high 100s - the UN has more than 8000 active members.

It's also the only bloc in the NS world with any meaning. Like Sirat said, the only organisation that actually means anything for regional control.

In conclusion, even if you feel other organisations have any real meaning, the NSUN is the biggest fish in the international community, and the only one with meat.

He hasn't a bloody clue what the hell he is, and neither does anyone else really.Didn't someone once say it meant fucking evil?

[OOC] Does this belong in this forum? I mean, it's an anti-UN thread. Shouldn't it be in Gameplay or something?

It doesn't belong anywhere; it's a lame-assed attempt to get around a modlock (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516553). Also, I doubt the author really cares what anyone thinks of the UN; he's just here looking for attention. Which makes me wonder why all of you keep feeding it. :rolleyes:

He hasn't a bloody clue what the hell he is, and neither does anyone else really.

All I know is he's anti-co... You know what, I'm not saying the word. The last thing we need is to get him started on it again.

Anti-Colostomy?

Anti-Colostomy?

Ew.

I thought it was anti-common sense, myself.

IC:
By far non UN members outnumber UN members, yes?

Yes.

How can you possibly claim the NSUN is global political organization?

Simple. Like this. The NSUN is a global political organization.

I don't see how it has much influence outside of the UN.

You can't get endorsements without UN membership. Endorsements speed your increase in regional influence. Regional influence can have great import on non-UN matters. Don't believe me? Go see what would happen to anyone who attempted an invasion of somewhere like TNP or Gatesville. GBM or Nevadar would laugh the poor raiding group into oblivion while barely smudging their own power base to rid the region of the undesirables. Why? Because they are powerful UN Delegates who have been in power for quite some time. I'll simplify this for you. They have this power because of the UN. Let me say that again for the sake of clarity. They have this power because of the UN. The UN allows them the power to control, to some degree, non-UN affairs involving UN nations and rogue states. How's that for influence?

The world at large does not largely conform to UN politics.

So?


What does the NSUN do that has an impact outside the UN? I think the Economic and Military coalitions of the world have a power you are denying.

See what I've written above.

As for what Disco is, I have faith that his inquiries are at least somewhat sincere. His motives may be misguided, his logic flawed, and his approach somewhat less than refined, but he's just curious.

I'm not trying to get anyone to join ACCEL. You're right, I have no idea who he is. I'm just answering a question. ACCEL is the international organization that I work with most...

OOC: I'm well aware of how the UN functions statwise, gameplaywise, etc.. What I was hoping to do was start an in character discussion about the impact of the UN on world politics. I kind of took it as granted that the participants here understood the OOC mechanics.

OOC: What do the characters represented here perceive the NSUN to be, in game? Is it a debating society with no real authority? Is a sprawling bureaucratic overlord, dictating to it's member states? Is it one international organization amongst many? Does it have enemies threatening it's existence?

OOC: What do the characters represented here perceive the NSUN to be, in game? Is it a debating society with no real authority? Is a sprawling bureaucratic overlord, dictating to it's member states? Is it one international organization amongst many? Does it have enemies threatening it's existence?

I consider the NSUN to be a "mega-government". It certainly does have authority, since its resolutions become law in the member nations. However, many nations take pleasure in finding ways around those laws, so the NSUN has less clout than they think, though they can still damage their members through ill-considered laws. It's not the only international organization. II is full of organizations, and even the UN forum has a few. But it's the largest (roughly 25% of the world), and the most influential politically (though not militarily due to no army).

As for enemies, I'd say the NSUN has many enemies. Gatesville is on record as anti-UN, though they work within the system to neuter it politically. However, I'd guess that many radicals in nations that were economically damaged by the UN wouldn't mind planting a bomb in the UN HQ. Or maybe it's just me. ;)

OOC: I'll have to answer this OOC, because IC, Ardchoilleans simply accept that the UN is there and they have to live with it. Factions within the country may complain about individual decisions, but they no more think of actually withdrawing from it than they think of withdrawing from gravity. If ever Ardchoille withdrew it would be a completely gameplay decision for which roleplay justification would be pretty much impossible.

So: Ardchoille's Co-President, Dicey Reilly, represents a majority idealism within the country, believing that, flawed as it may be, the UN is a step towards fairness in world affairs. As such, she expects it to occupy the moral high ground. She knows that it is unable to restrain powerful nations, regions, non-members or rogue states by force, but relies on the "water weareth away stone" effect. Hers is the painfully naive conviction that reasonable beings will, ultimately, act reasonably; that peace is possible; and that human rights outweigh ideologies and economies.

In the short term, she uses the UN to gain news of other nations, find natural allies, help where she can and build up a personal relationship with their reps that will give her nation a way to approach other nations at need. (Translation: attitudes expressed in GA debates, plus offsite forums.)

UN resolutions are sometimes a necessary jog to the national conscience, sometimes an annoyance that must nevertheless be encompassed because the majority of other nations feel it necessary (like that damn necrophilia one). Ardchoille's Secretary for Situations Like This gets more exercise from avoiding Dicey-generated trouble than from dodging UN rulings.

Yes, Dicey is aware of enemies to the UN, but sees them more within than without, from a direction that loosely fits within the "national sovereignty" label. Nations that are outside of the UN, she assumes, will join it when they see that it can do some good; nations that are already within, but refuse to let it do what good it can, are more of a problem.

Yes, Dicey is aware of enemies to the UN, but sees them more within than without, from a direction that loosely fits within the "national sovereignty" label. Nations that are outside of the UN, she assumes, will join it when they see that it can do some good; nations that are already within, but refuse to let it do what good it can, are more of a problem.

Sounds like you'd have the UN do more, more often?

OOC: You see I have this wild radical notion. I play this game; it's called Nation States. Parts don't make any sense; heck neither did Star Trek but I still watched it. The game has rules and stats; silly at times but that's the way it is.

I love to roleplay, but I love to roleplay based on the game itself. In the end the rules of the game have to be followed in order for the role play to make sense. The UN has two elements, a game play element and a role play element. Technically the text of a resolution is a purely role play element; there is nothing in the game that forces daily issue decisions based on UN resolution text. So when we talk about the Compliance Gnomes, they are technically only for "stat wank" purposes since you can reverse them at any time with the appropriate daily issue decision. (This is why I am not so much opposed to the "Creative Solutions" approach.)

Game play can influence role play, but role play can't influence game play. Nothing in role play can impact game play in any shape or form, but since the UN is a combination of game and role play it can. This is why the UN is really the only real international game in town.

Game play can influence role play, but role play can't influence game play. Nothing in role play can impact game play in any shape or form, but since the UN is a combination of game and role play it can. This is why the UN is really the only real international game in town.

OOC: That would be true, if there wasn't this thing we call voting, where people talk about something then vote. Lots of UN members are part time, they often don't vote at all, and otherwise participate in NS mainly for RP.

Sounds like you'd have the UN do more, more often?

As far as Dicey is concerned, the NS UN is doing "more, more often". In the absence of straightout proof that they don't exist, she operates in a world in which bodies that parallel RL's UNESCO and UNICEF do exist and are working behind the scenes, unlauded but effective, along with hundreds of similar UN-ish organisations. Ardchoille contributes (though they may not have known it until now) to the Red Crystal (okay, not UN, but international) and public-spirited young mages are often found serving with disaster relief teams co-ordinated by the NS UN. Then, of course, there are all the Ardchoillean experts who give pro bono time and advice to the NS UN's proliferation of committees, and the often dreadful (but eventually drunken) famous mock-UNs at the University of Ardchoille ...

I fear the Ardchoilleans have a bad case of 19th century idealism:

... Till the war-drum throbb'd no longer
And the battle-flags were furled
In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world.

There the common sense of most shall hold
A fretful realm in awe
And the kindly earth shall slumber
Lapt in universal law.

... though "the common sense of most" sometimes seems an infinitely receding goal.

Game play can influence role play, but role play can't influence game play. Nothing in role play can impact game play in any shape or form, but since the UN is a combination of game and role play it can. This is why the UN is really the only real international game in town.
OOC: That would be true, if there wasn't this thing we call voting, where people talk about something then vote. Lots of UN members are part time, they often don't vote at all, and otherwise participate in NS mainly for RP.

And what, pray tell, does that have to do with anything that RWP was talking about? You have not refuted a single point that has been made.

As far as Dicey is concerned, the NS UN is doing "more, more often". In the absence of straightout proof that they don't exist, she operates in a world in which bodies that parallel RL's UNESCO and UNICEF do exist and are working behind the scenes, unlauded but effective, along with hundreds of similar UN-ish organisations. Ardchoille contributes (though they may not have known it until now) to the Red Crystal (okay, not UN, but international) and public-spirited young mages are often found serving with disaster relief teams co-ordinated by the NS UN. Then, of course, there are all the Ardchoillean experts who give pro bono time and advice to the NS UN's proliferation of committees, and the often dreadful (but eventually drunken) famous mock-UNs at the University of Ardchoille ...

I fear the Ardchoilleans have a bad case of 19th century idealism:

... Till the war-drum throbb'd no longer
And the battle-flags were furled
In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world.

There the common sense of most shall hold
A fretful realm in awe
And the kindly earth shall slumber
Lapt in universal law.

... though "the common sense of most" sometimes seems an infinitely receding goal.

OOC: I like that idea. I figured the UN was essentially a debating society, with little power... that acted like a weathervain accurately summing up the current geopolitical climate. So the UN might not have much influence over global affairs, but I figured it accurately reflected the current political state of the world.

Come on, people! Put the food away.

A-A, I'm taking the same tack as Kivisto here; that this is a genuine discussion. However, this will be my last post in it for a bit, anyway, as RL (work) intervenes.

... I figured the UN was essentially a debating society, with little power... that acted like a weathervain accurately summing up the current geopolitical climate. ...

As other posters have shown, the UN is the one organisation that does have some power -- more than the RL UN.

The resolutions are what it wants to be done, the debates explain how and why it wants to do it, and all the offsites are those hardworking, unsung bipartisan committees that meet for hours, even during holidays, hammering out the give-and-take wording that will give a reasonable proposal a chance to pass.

Or sometimes they're the little cabals that try to use UN votes for factional power back home, or in the GA. There are even a few that parallel the high-minded groups that try to keep the focus on the ideals behind the sub-clauses.

On the "corruption" issue, Dicey is extremely disappointed that no-one has tried to corrupt her, and has moments of self-doubt when she wonders if it's because she's already thoroughly corrupt. Anyone wishing to explore the issue should consider chocolate.

All up, whatever the UN is, it's the nearest you'll get here to global politics. Everything else is RP and can be ignored, but you can't ignore the Gnomes. So I'm afraid that, as far as your sig is concerned ... the dogs bark; the caravan moves on.

On the "corruption" issue, Dicey is extremely disappointed that no-one has tried to corrupt her, and has moments of self-doubt when she wonders if it's because she's already thoroughly corrupt. Anyone wishing to explore the issue should consider chocolate.

Perhaps she should visit Krioval. Not only would Serph be a good resource for mutual intrigue, but she'd probably ensnare a quarter of Krioval's (straight) male population with only a few bars of the hedgehog song. Go figure.

All up, whatever the UN is, it's the nearest you'll get here to global politics. Everything else is RP and can be ignored, but you can't ignore the Gnomes.

I might as well throw in with this view - it says nearly everything I might have said, and in fewer sentences. I'd add that the debate, in and of itself, is an added dimension of the game. Unlike RP, mutual consent is not needed for a given action to occur.

To be plainly obviously, I do not care for the NSUN one bit, despite being the delegate of my region, which I only wish to hold to exercise regional control. I find the UN useless as ideological bans or the like are disallowed, and progression to proportionate distribution of wealth under socialism is impossible outside ones' nation because capitalism remains.

I find the UN useless as ideological bans or the like are disallowed,I suspect you would rapidly change your tune if ideological bans were permitted, and a "ban socialism" proposal popped up. :rolleyes:

I figured the UN was essentially a debating society, with little power... that acted like a weathervain accurately summing up the current geopolitical climate.

I'm really trying hard to be nice here, but I'm sure that I completely disagree with your notion of the UN to the point of being the polar opposite.

The UN is not a debating society. Only a fraction of the voting members even know that the forums exist and only a fraction of those that do tend to actively comment on the resultion du jour. Since this fact is known by all those who are currently in the forums, any "debating" is a combination of stat wank justification, being silly, and the fun sport of international defenstrations. I seriously doubt you can tell a single element of Retired Werepenguin's geopolitical cimate from the UN debates of Flash Blonde. (And something - it's so hard to swear when you're an agnostic nation - forbid if Tzor Red Brown becomes the rep - I swear he writes worse than I do - with all these meanderings away from the tain of thought - Tzor get out of this post NOW!)

Any Role Play in the UN is clearly just a way to relieve frustrations in that the only viable stat wanking mechanism in the game that is somewhat under the player's control (as opposed to the hand of chance to get the right daily issue) is filled to the gunnels with drooling idiots!

I suspect you would rapidly change your tune if ideological bans were permitted, and a "ban socialism" proposal popped up. :rolleyes:

And one would. I'd even put money on it. Real money. The sort that you earn from a day's work in the oppressive capitalistic regimes.:p

To be plainly obviously, I do not care for the NSUN one bit, despite being the delegate of my region, which I only wish to hold to exercise regional control. I find the UN useless as ideological bans or the like are disallowed, and progression to proportionate distribution of wealth under socialism is impossible outside ones' nation because capitalism remains.

Thereby demonstrating the power of the UN with non-UN nations.

To be plainly obviously, I do not care for the NSUN one bit, despite being the delegate of my region, which I only wish to hold to exercise regional control. I find the UN useless as ideological bans or the like are disallowed, and progression to proportionate distribution of wealth under socialism is impossible outside ones' nation because capitalism remains.

http://test256.free.fr/UN%20Cards/wtf7an.jpg

everytime I see that card, I want to have your babies.

I'm really trying hard to be nice here, but I'm sure that I completely disagree with your notion of the UN to the point of being the polar opposite.

The UN is not a debating society. Only a fraction of the voting members even know that the forums exist and only a fraction of those that do tend to actively comment on the resultion du jour. Since this fact is known by all those who are currently in the forums, any "debating" is a combination of stat wank justification, being silly, and the fun sport of international defenstrations. I seriously doubt you can tell a single element of Retired Werepenguin's geopolitical cimate from the UN debates of Flash Blonde. (And something - it's so hard to swear when you're an agnostic nation - forbid if Tzor Red Brown becomes the rep - I swear he writes worse than I do - with all these meanderings away from the tain of thought - Tzor get out of this post NOW!)

Any Role Play in the UN is clearly just a way to relieve frustrations in that the only viable stat wanking mechanism in the game that is somewhat under the player's control (as opposed to the hand of chance to get the right daily issue) is filled to the gunnels with drooling idiots!

OOC: I just don't care about stat wanking, at all. After playing this game just a little it was clear the game mechanics were laughable, but the user generated content was awesome. It seemed quite silly to me to take the mechanistic part seriously.

From an out of character perspective I'm not arguing with anyone about the role or power of the UN. I'm curious what people IC opinions are of the UN.

I'm curious what peoples IC thoughts are on the UN.

everytime I see that card, I want to have your babies.


I think I just threw up in my mouth. :p

I think I just threw up and out of my mouth.

I think I just threw up in my mouth. :p

OOC: On average, on threads I start or participate in, how many of your posts do you consider on topic? 10%?

OOC: On average, on threads I start or participate in, how many of your posts do you consider on topic? 10%?

All of them. Now run along.

OOC: On average, on threads I start or participate in, how many of your posts do you consider on topic? 10%?I think this is a bit rich coming from you Disco - you are not exactly known for keeping things on topic.I'm curious what peoples IC thoughts are on the UN.I posted some of my thoughts on the UN here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12284188&postcount=11)I don't often do IC or OOC - it's more a mash up of somewhere inbetween.

As for the "weathervain" theory - that's probably about right. I'm pretty certain most players of NS have a UN nation (and probably several puppets as well), so the representation of the UN for players, rather than nations is probably very high - which would make it an fairly accurate representation of players views.

http://test256.free.fr/UN%20Cards/wtf7an.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2406/exvsnsunxm0.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exvsnsunxm0.jpg)

Can't destroy it from the outside you know :p :D

Ol Prez of Excruciatia is just trying to get UN to match the blurb on front page highlighted in sig :D

I think this is a bit rich coming from you Disco - you are not exactly known for keeping things on topic.I posted some of my thoughts on the UN here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12284188&postcount=11)I don't often do IC or OOC - it's more a mash up of somewhere inbetween.

As for the "weathervain" theory - that's probably about right. I'm pretty certain most players of NS have a UN nation (and probably several puppets as well), so the representation of the UN for players, rather than nations is probably very high - which would make it an fairly accurate representation of players views.

OOC: I've got been told a bit too often to be clearly IC or OOC, so I'm a bit pedantic about it now. Most people here do seem to lean towards a mash up somewhere inbetween.

I basically consider the real world UN to be such a "weathervain" as well. Various groups like keeping the UN toothless, so it doesn't really pack much punch. It is a large, public, international forum though, so it's a reasonably good tool for judging the international body politic.

I've often wondered how well the NSUN represents anyone's real world political views, and which groups that would correspond to in the real world. It would seem to represent English speaking people that like web forums and role playing.

As to my reputation I would say I am easily lead off topic if someone posts about issues that my characters care about.

Secondly, the NSUN is the only truly global organisation. What can other organisations do? Roleplay. No actual meaingful effects on nations. Everything is roleplayed. If that's binding on you because you think it is then great, but the reality of it is anything done by one of these mysterious organisations is meaningless. Only the UN has substance.


OOC: Other organizations can't have much gameplay power that's true. So if you care most about stat wank then the UN has the most power. However a lot of people just come here to talk politics, and don't care much about the silly game mechanisms here.


Which poses the obvious questions - is it the UN that's corrupt, or it's members?


IC: I would define an organization's corruption to be the corruption of it's members, proportional to their influence on the organization.


Secondly, did you and your political agenda actually make a bit of difference? Nope.



IC: My political agenda has been quite well served thank you :) The NSUN is willlldly unpopular amongst my constituents, so I've been assured lifetime political support by my actions in the UN, and by leading the movement to withdraw the Free Land of Discoraversalism from the NSUN.



Since you made no difference, what makes you think anyone else can use the UN for their own agenda? By it's own mechanics, the UN has to have a consensus of greater than 50% - I don't seriously think anyone could manipulate 5000 odd votes to bring about legislation furthering their own agenda.Ahhh, the truth of the matter. You position is you were unwilling to have others motives imprinted on your nation, whilst you were all too willing to do so yourself to other nations?



IC: We have watched while the UN has become dominated by those who wish to restrict various freedoms in the name of their vision of moral decency, and their bizarre views on economic principle. We see the NSUN as having great potential in promoting international peace and prosperity, so we have attempted to point out the flaws in it's misguided course as long NSUN membership was a politically tenable position in our lands.

I think you will see that our track record consists mainly of supporting repeals, and opposing legislation that restricts freedoms. I'm not sure how you could construe that as "imprinting our motives on other nations."



It's the biggest trading bloc in NS, and the biggest military bloc in NS - all other organisations have memberships perhaps numbering in the high 100s - the UN has more than 8000 active members.

It's also the only bloc in the NS world with any meaning. Like Sirat said, the only organisation that actually means anything for regional control.

In conclusion, even if you feel other organisations have any real meaning, the NSUN is the biggest fish in the international community, and the only one with meat.

Didn't someone once say it meant fucking evil?

IC: These are bold statements, do you have any evidence at all to back them up? The NSUN represents a small minority of world nations, after all. You are claiming it is still a plurality?

OOC: Let's not blind ourselves with statistics. The original question had two parts: IF the UN sucks, what are the ALTERNATIVES?

There's no point in getting hung up on it: the simple fact is that there are no alternatives, because no alternatives are written into the game mechanics.

If you want to say that that wasn't what you had in mind when you said "alternatives", fine; there are alternatives to the UN as a debating society, or a social group, or an RP platform, on the offsite forums. The numbers participating there, or in the UN, aren't relevant; what matters is which particular forum you find most relevant to your needs. If it's somewhere other than the UN, then, whacko, there's your alternative.

But this doesn't address the first part, "If the UN sucks". I don't think it does. I've seen it change political direction, I've seen it rehash its procedures, I've seen it collapse in stupid namecalling, tear itself apart over proposals or mod decisions or the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, and fall around giggling like a bunch of nine-year-olds, all in the same month. Much like any RL organisation. Except that this one is stimulating, often fun, always varied and occasionally thought-provoking.

If, for you, the UN sucks, then, for you, the alternatives are where you find them. You get out of it what you put in it. If you're out of it, you don't get anything. QED.

OOC: Let's not blind ourselves with statistics. The original question had two parts: IF the UN sucks, what are the ALTERNATIVES?

There's no point in getting hung up on it: the simple fact is that there are no alternatives, because no alternatives are written into the game mechanics.

If you want to say that that wasn't what you had in mind when you said "alternatives", fine; there are alternatives to the UN as a debating society, or a social group, or an RP platform, on the offsite forums. The numbers participating there, or in the UN, aren't relevant; what matters is which particular forum you find most relevant to your needs. If it's somewhere other than the UN, then, whacko, there's your alternative.

But this doesn't address the first part, "If the UN sucks". I don't think it does. I've seen it change political direction, I've seen it rehash its procedures, I've seen it collapse in stupid namecalling, tear itself apart over proposals or mod decisions or the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, and fall around giggling like a bunch of nine-year-olds, all in the same month. Much like any RL organization. Except that this one is stimulating, often fun, always varied and occasionally thought-provoking.

If, for you, the UN sucks, then, for you, the alternatives are where you find them. You get out of it what you put in it. If you're out of it, you don't get anything. QED.

OOC: Sigh. I guess I'm not being clear. I think we all agree that there is no alternative to the NSUN from a game mechanic perspective. However the question was posed in character, so any response "from a game mechanic perspective" is missing the point.

The person typing here, from an out of character perspective loves this forum, game, etc. It's my nation that is unhappy with the NSUN, and it's that fictional nation that has resigned formal membership in the fictional organization.

I was hoping to see some people advertise their favorite boards, regions, etc. that a non UN nation might want to join. I was also wondering if anyone has ever created an organization specifically to rival the NSUN.

OOC: Sigh. I guess I'm not being clear.
When are you ever?

I think we all agree that there is no alternative to the NSUN from a game mechanic perspective. However the question was posed in character, so any response "from a game mechanic perspective" is missing the point.

Then what the hell has this whole thread been about? A confusing mess of IC and OOC pap that doesn't answer any questions?


The person typing here, from an out of character perspective loves this forum, game, etc. It's my nation that is unhappy with the NSUN, and it's that fictional nation that has resigned formal membership in the fictional organization.

Uhhh... so this whole thread is just a ridiculous way to get attention and confuse everyone with what your nation's policy is, while still saying that as a player you love the UN? Or were you trying to be serious for once?

I was hoping to see some people advertise their favorite boards, regions, etc. that a non UN nation might want to join. I was also wondering if anyone has ever created an organization specifically to rival the NSUN.

Then you should have stated your intentions from the beginning. You didn't, and now at the end of this long and wasteful thread you clarify yourself. If you want to advertise your messageboards and forums, the UN IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT.

No, there is no organization to rival the UN, and there never will be in NationStates.

Can we let this thread die now, please?

When are you ever?


OOC: It's kind of up to the reader to tell me if I'm clear or not :) I do my best.

When are you ever?
Then what the hell has this whole thread been about? A confusing mess of IC and OOC pap that doesn't answer any questions?


OOC: The thread was started, clearly in character, asking questions.


Uhhh... so this whole thread is just a ridiculous way to get attention and confuse everyone with what your nation's policy is, while still saying that as a player you love the UN? Or were you trying to be serious for once?


OOC: This thread began as a query, not a statement.


Then you should have stated your intentions from the beginning. You didn't, and now at the end of this long and wasteful thread you clarify yourself. If you want to advertise your messageboards and forums, the UN IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT.

No, there is no organization to rival the UN, and there never will be in NationStates.

Can we let this thread die now, please?

OOC: My intention was to ask this question, In Bloody Character,

"Sure lots of people hate the UN, but have they done anything about it? What are the more powerful, popular, large, etc. international organizations that non UN members contribute to?"

I was hoping for in character responses, describing international organizations that welcome non UN members. It rose as a response to someone else's thread complaining about the UN.

Are we clear now, or do you have further questions?

I was also wondering if anyone has ever created an organization specifically to rival the NSUN.
I had actually had that same idea. It could also be a bit more like the RL UN, with actual roleplayed punishments for breaking resolutions, and that sort of thing. Could be fun.

OOC: Sigh, too. Read my previous posts -- or just the paragraph beginning with "If" in the latest one -- and you'll see I have commented on other UN-related organisations and on those that operate in the background of the UN in which my character Dicey Riley operates.

However, if links are what you need, here (http://z15.invisionfree.com/Reclamation/index.php?c=4) is a link to Reclamation's "UN Resources" section, and here (http://s3.invisionfree.com/UN_Organizations) is a link to the UN Organisations forum, which includes the Red Cross/Crystal I mentioned earlier.

If you search the NS forum you will eventually find a thread in which an RPd international theological convention, possibly the equivalent of the World Council of Churches, met. Other "in the background" organisations may be there too, or in II. Several of the NS UN's another-bloody-committees fairly evidently have occasionally sheltered under umbrellas held by some NS equivalent of UNESCO or UNICEF, and a couple of resolutions were undoubtedly cheered on by the ILO. You could even push parallels between the worthy little Pretenama Panel and that bogeyman used to scare chauvinistic kiddies everywhere, the World Court.

The invitation-only forums that exist I would equate, as I suggested earlier, with the obscure meeting rooms in which people of obscure purpose caucus obscurely.

But here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12333967#post12333967) is a link to the organisation that I'm sure Dicey would regard as the most important, influential and truly international organisation in the NS UN, and, after all this, the drinks are definitely on you.

IC: "Neville, what's the most expensive grog you've got? Set 'em up, Disco's buying."