NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello all UN members and delegates,

With this thread I would like to ask your attention for my Repeal. You can find the Repeal under this link:

http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_proposal1/match=fair

Here you can add some comments and I hope you will support my effort. I thank you all!

Protectorate of Ilantir
Defending Democracy of Hethrum

Well let's have a look at this.
RECOGNIZING the good effort made by the author of this resolution to ensure fair wages for all in need.
That's me. Thanks.

CONCERNED though that this resolution does not specify fair working hours for the purpose of fair payment.
That's because this Resolution isn't concerned with working hours. You must be thinking of Individual Working Freedoms (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11663201&postcount=176). If this Resolution had established an ironclad, UN wide wage scale, then it would have needed to address the matter of full-time/part-time hours. But it doesn't establish that UN-wide scale.


AFRAID that the vague definitions of life standards and overtime may help malign employees more than it does the worker.
First, "malign employees more than it does the worker"? Do you have a different definition for "employee" than you do for "worker"? Secondly, overtime?

BELIEVING that section VI provides an unnecessary protection for non-profit organizations, since they will still need to provide some basic support for their volunteers.
Article (VI) states that "Exemption may be granted", but Article (VIII) states that "It is affirmed that UN nations shall retain the right to make final decisions in all matters concerning wages and compensation, taking into account local economic conditions and factors affecting the economic well-being of all their citizenry." This is a matter for your nation to decide.

DISMAYED that the Commission stated in section VII is appointed, since it function is considered illegal under UN law.
What the hell are you talking about? Explain this.


URGING for clearer rules on life standard calculations and working time.
Provide me with a set of "clearer rules on life standard calculations" that would work and could be emplemented in all 28,084 member nations without (a) causing economic collapse in some, and (b) being wholly inadequate in others, and I will repeal this myself so as to pass a resolution implementing your magical formula.

THEREFORE repeals UNR #187 "UN Fair Wage Convention"
Status: Lacking Support (requires 111 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Tue Jan 2 2007

Not likely.

Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú
Ambassador

I read that trash masquerading as a repeal. Ellelt has only one thing to say on it.

Proper reading and interpretation of FWC would indicate that the vast majority of the provisions are Sovereignty friendly...meaning that the Sovereign Nations themselves will make the definitions of what is and is not a fair wage, taking into consideration their average living standard, cultural values, social structure.

There is no magical formula to determine what is a fair wage for the 28,000+ UN nations...unless you know a branch of calculus that I don't.

Finally one must consider that the FWC does not operate in a vacuum. It works in tandem with the Individual Working Freedoms (IWF) and Right to Form Unions (RtFU) respectively.

The Politburo of the Communist Party of The United Socialist States of Ellelt has urged me to oppose this "repeal".

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.
Delegate for the Allied Communist States.

I read that trash masquerading as a repeal. Ellelt has only one thing to say on it.
And my one thing is: give it a rest. Why do you think it's acceptable to carry on in this arrogant, pompous, posturing mockery of debate? Because you saw the big boys do it? Think again: they get in trouble for it too, and you're just left looking like an idiot.

Proper reading and interpretation of FWC would indicate that the vast majority of the provisions are Sovereignty friendly
No. One provision is sovereignty friendly. At least two are not.

...meaning that the Sovereign Nations themselves will make the definitions of what is and is not a fair wage, taking into consideration their average living standard, cultural values, social structure.
Yes, which is only one of the provisions. One out of three is not a majority.

There is no magical formula to determine what is a fair wage for the 28,000+ UN nations...unless you know a branch of calculus that I don't.
This despite the fact that the UN Fair Wage Convention...actually does say what a fair wage would be?

Finally one must consider that the FWC does not operate in a vacuum. It works in tandem with the Individual Working Freedoms (IWF) and Right to Form Unions (RtFU)
No it doesn't.

respectively.
That is meaningless.

The Politburo of the Communist Party of The United Socialist States of Ellelt has urged me to oppose this "repeal".
There's no sneer about it: it's a repeal.

~Rono Pyandran
Chief of Staff

Random tangency: That formula would be within Statistics, not Calculus.

That's because this Resolution isn't concerned with working hours. You must be thinking of Individual Working Freedoms (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11663201&postcount=176). If this Resolution had established an ironclad, UN wide wage scale, then it would have needed to address the matter of full-time/part-time hours. But it doesn't establish that UN-wide scale.

I think we can do better.

First, "malign employees more than it does the worker"? Do you have a different definition for "employee" than you do for "worker"? Secondly, overtime?

It should read "Employers". Very bad typo on my side!

[... What's the magic formula?]

Just what they use in real-life: the Consumer Price Index

In economics, a consumer price index is a statistical time-series measure of a weighted average of prices of a specified set of goods and services purchased by consumers. It is a price index that tracks the prices of a specified basket of consumer goods and services, providing a measure of inflation. The CPI is a fixed quantity price index and considered a cost-of-living index.
The CPI can be used to track changes in prices of goods and services purchased for consumption by households, i.e., of the consumer basket. User fees (such as water and sewer service) and sales and excise taxes paid by the consumer are also included. Income taxes and investment items (such as stocks, bonds, life insurance, and homes) are not included.
Nations already calculate this, as it's a pretty accurate measure of inflation. This is typically calculated monthly. Tying the minimum wage into it is simply a matter of looking at the CPI each month. But to minimize the market fluctuations, it would be a good compromise to adjust the minimum wage annually based on a one year average.
I'll further note that there are specific ways of calculating it, and there are other calculations (CPIX, RPI) that measure inflation, but the CPI is the better measure of cost-of-living.
There are arguments against using the CPI for this, I will admit, but they boil down to "we don't want a minimum wage at all" from what I've seen.


It's not all bad, we of our region liked the effort very much, but there are points that make a repeal valid.

It's not all bad, we of our region liked the effort very much, but there are points that make a repeal valid.
You have my blessings. Go ahead and repeal it.

Well, I think this try out with strand with a lack of support if I need to gather it alone. Could I request your help?

OOC: Ilantir, surely you are not asking Yelda for his assistance in repealing his own legislation. I mean I could be wrong, but I wouldn't help in the repeal of my own legislation...unless it has been demonstrated to have been a mistake. But In that case I would have written my own repeal. I would imagine a lot of other people would play the same way.

IC:
I have yet to be convinced that the FWC is a bad law. Ideological differences aside, Mr. Pyandran, but one can argue that no UN nation has any sovereignty. However, In this post I will demonstrate that the FWC actually is more sovereignty friendly than you make it out to be.

As for the actions to be carried out under the FWC:

(II) All UN nations are strongly encouraged to enact legislation:

(i)Guaranteeing fair wages as appropriate for their nation, taking into account local economic conditions and standards of living.
(ii)Establishing an enforcement mechanism as deemed appropriate for their nation.
(iii)Providing for the collection and study of relevant economic data to be used in determining appropriate wages in their nation.


The strongly encourages, does just that. It strongly encourages. Now Ellelt could wank around that...but we don't. It is easier for us because we have taxpayer paid for health care, education, housing assistance, etc. We were doing this anyway.

(III) Factors to be considered when calculating fair wages should include the cost of food for one worker and one dependent, housing for one worker and one dependent, local utilities (gas, water, electricity, telecommunications, etc.), schooling for one dependent and reasonable and appropriate discretionary spending.


This clause provides for support of the worker plus one dependent, taking into account local prices for necessary articles...food, water, housing, as well as others that might be considered luxuries by some...gas (for cooking, heating the house/flat, and/or heating water for bathing), electricity (I guess people should have light bulbs...their much safer than say candles or kerosene lamps) and telecommunications, (as for the necessity/luxury argument...that might be subject to debate, but probably not really the point). As to function, it is a defining clause, obviously nations that wish to may legislate a higher minimum wage.

(VI) Exemption may be granted for organizations which operate on a not-for-profit basis and whose members or employees voluntarily participate on an unpaid or reduced pay basis. Examples of this type of employment would include, but not be limited to, charitable organizations and organizations which operate sheltered workshops for the disabled, etc.


This clause is not really applicable to Ellelt, we don't have or need charitable organizations, and workshops for the disabled are ran by the government. But there are nations which do have need for such organizations, and the exemption is Voluntary...meaning its between the worker and his/her employer, which if I understand correctly is protected under IWF.

(VIII) It is affirmed that UN nations shall retain the right to make final decisions in all matters concerning wages and compensation, taking into account local economic conditions and factors affecting the economic well-being of all their citizenry.


The sovereignty friendliness of this should be patently obvious to anyone. So out of eight clauses five are sovereignty friendly. One is a definition, and two are red herrings thrown in to get the fluffies to vote for it.

I am willing to hear any arguments in favor of repealing the FWC, but I doubt that any can really change my mind on the good it is doing on a world wide level.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.
Delegate for the Allied Communist States.

Uh, Vladdie, you may want to take a look at this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12157849&postcount=7).

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

OOC: Well I stand corrected as to Yelda helping the in the repeal of his own legislation. Further, in light of that post by the Yeldan Ambassador, I must redouble my efforts to oppose the repeal of the FWC, even though he calls it the FSA in that post...likely due to the annual day of international intoxication.

VK

Okay, we as the Hethrum Region, might have been a little forward in passing the repeal straight away without discussing it on the boards yet.

If you would like to take a look at our ideas, visit our Regional Boards UN Office here:

http://hethrum.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=103
http://hethrum.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=119

Could I request your help?
I hope the representative from Ilantir understands that I do not support this repeal effort and that I do not think UNFWC should be repealed. I was merely giving my blessings in the sense that should you succeed, it will afford me the opportunity to submit a replacement.

Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú
Ambassador
Sufferer of Hangovers

If you would like to take a look at our ideas, visit our Regional Boards UN Office here:

http://hethrum.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=103
http://hethrum.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=119

I don't particularly want to register on the board. Maybe give us the gist.

I hope the representative from Ilantir understands that I do not support this repeal effort and that I do not think UNFWC should be repealed. I was merely giving my blessings in the sense that should you succeed, it will afford me the opportunity to submit a replacement.

Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú
Ambassador
Sufferer of Hangovers

Of course, now you'll be unleashing the hungover beast. The ambassador of Yelda will forgive me, but I haven't quite master the pronunciation of his (ooc:his?) name as yet.

The ambassador of Yelda will forgive me, but I haven't quite master the pronunciation of his (ooc:his?) name as yet.
Yes, Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú is a male. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12147228&postcount=39

His name should be pronounced Eye-ethgath Spo-etiu. Sort of. The characters are used for convenience (and because they look cool) and their pronunciation does not correspond exactly to how they are pronounced in RL languages.

I don't particularly want to register on the board. Maybe give us the gist.


Of course, see below comments of my fellow Hethrum Nation, which forms the body of our Repeal:

Daverana:

While the people of Daverana feel strongly in favor of "honest pay for honest work", the people are concerned that this proposal has a few problems.
1) "Factors to be considered when calculating fair wages should include the cost of food for one worker and one dependent, housing for one worker and one dependent, local utilities (gas, water, electricity, telecommunications, etc.), schooling for one dependent and reasonable and appropriate discretionary spending."
As housing prices are related to proximity to work centers, the people are concerned that this will wreak havoc with the real estate and rental markets. Further, small business owners fear they'll have to shut down if any of their workers decides to move further away, while larger industries have stated they'll simply tell employees to sleep on cots within the factory or be fired. Finally, we are politically centrist and libertarian - this is too far leftist and authoritarian for our taste.
2) "Exemption may be granted for organizations which operate on a not-for-profit basis and whose members or employees voluntarily participate on an unpaid or reduced pay basis."
The author of this proposal seems unaware that non-profit does not mean penniless. While many charitable organizations can and do reduce their operating costs by relying on volunteers, there's no such thing as a free lunch. The author is trying to fill a loophole where none exists, and is unaware of other glaring ommissions.
3) "The United Nations Wage Adjustment Advisory Commission is hereby established to provide guidance and assistance to UN member nations in determining appropriate wages in their individual nations. The Commission shall be empowered to make recommendations and provide assistance to national governments in matters concerning wage related legislation and policies."
This is illegal under UN law.

Given these three concerns, especially the third, I respectfully advise that this proposal as written is beneath consideration.

OK, I'm not going to address Daverana's first two points in great detail since they are, frankly, ridiculous given that:
Article (III) is not mandatory, only a recommendation which can be adapted to your local needs and economic situations.
Article (VI) says "Exemption may be granted"
Article (VIII) says you don't have to change any of your laws if you don't want to.

I am, however, going to ask one last time that you explain and defend this
This is illegal under UN law.
bullshit using as many words as you may deem necessary. This is patently untrue and I can't fathom how you may have arrived at such a conclusion.

Aüþgæþ Spøtyiú
Ambassador

This is illegal under UN law.No, it isn't, so you can just drop that whole line right now.