NationStates Jolt Archive

The United Nations,

THE WORKING CLASS of our societies keep things within our borders safe and civilized;

ALLOWING for the common populous to gain health, knowledge, and share goods and ideas;

THEREFORE, it should be said that all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all working-class citizens;

ALL employees in the workforce, regardless of occupations, should be guaranteed to receive this care;

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs;

IT should be EXTENDED to all family members of the working class as well within a reasonable boundary;

THEREFORE, the immediate family, including the spouse and children, should be entitled to basic health care as well;

OUR WORKING CLASS is contributing to the success of our society and offering their time to do so;

IT should be the right of the government to protect these people in times of illness;

BY PROTECTING these people, we are ensuring healthier times for the entire country, region, and world;

YOU ARE ACTIVELY contributing to enure the safety of all citizens;

HEALTH CARE should not be optional, rather a right to all people.




This is a simple draft and basic idea I would like to see myself or someone else propose in the GA. Please give all your remarks and comments on this draft.... Thanks.

THE WORKING CLASS of our societies keep things within our borders safe and civilized;

We see no proof that any one class of society does this more than any other class. In fact, in Altanar at least, all segments of society share that responsibility equally. We'd recommend deleting this clause.

ALLOWING for the common populous to gain health, knowledge, and share goods and ideas

This could be reworded a touch, something like "TO ALLOW the common populace to have access to health care"....the parts about knowledge and sharing don't apply to healthcare really.

THEREFORE, it should be said that all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all working-class citizens

We'd reword this to take out the "it should be said that" part. Also, why only working-class citizens? What about the poor?

ALL employees in the workforce, regardless of occupations, should be guaranteed to receive this care

This clause, in our mind, takes it out of the realm of "working-class citizens". There are a lot of wealthy people who are part of the workforce.

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs;

This needs expansion a bit...what constitutes basic medical needs?

IT should be EXTENDED to all family members of the working class as well within a reasonable boundary; THEREFORE, the immediate family, including the spouse and children, should be entitled to basic health care as well;

Delete everything before "THEREFORE" and you make the point just fine.

OUR WORKING CLASS is contributing to the success of our society and offering their time to do so;

IT should be the right of the government to protect these people in times of illness;

BY PROTECTING these people, we are ensuring healthier times for the entire country, region, and world;

YOU ARE ACTIVELY contributing to enure the safety of all citizens;

HEALTH CARE should not be optional, rather a right to all people.

Most or all of this could be deleted without harming the proposal. It's just rhetorical fluff.

The timing of this amuses me... The Most Glorious Hack is ranked 17th in the region and 96,859th in the world for Most Comprehensive Public Healthcare.

Ellelt is a Proletarian Dictatorship but we offer health-care to all citizens. I do not see that health-care should be denied to anyone, reguardless of their class, as productive. I would strike the class language, as the capitalist countries wont vote for it, and instead put something along the lines of "all the citizens of the member nations" or something to that effect.

Vladimir Khernynko.

Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.

Illegal, poor format, poor idea. Based on fallacious arguments, illogical premises, and comes to unsound conclusions.

I think you can guess what our position is.

OOC: This isn't too bad, though I would have some suggestions (surprisingly).

The United Nations,

THE WORKING CLASS of our societies keep things within our borders safe and civilized;

Debatable. Krioval would consider that its military keeps things safe and civilized, and many soldiers (and paladins) are among Krioval's wealthiest classes. Of course, one could expand the definition of "working class" to include rich citizens, but I think that the potential vagueness of that phrase is enough to warrant its deletion. This clause should be rewritten to emphasize the particular impact of labor - its necessity for productivity, wealth generation, and comfort for all citizens.

ALLOWING for the common populous to gain health, knowledge, and share goods and ideas;

First, a minor point. It's spelled "populace" (if one is referring to the population of a nation/region). The bigger problem with this clause is that mandatory health care for laborers has nothing to do with gaining knowledge OR sharing goods and ideas. I would say that it's far more important for laborers to remain healthy because they'd be more productive, and that by knowing that their health care is guaranteed, they'd be happier, and thus even more productive.

THEREFORE, it should be said that all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all working-class citizens;

ALL employees in the workforce, regardless of occupations, should be guaranteed to receive this care;

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs;

Outside of dental care and immunizations, what would constitute "basic medical needs"? I don't want to get too technical, but would that include emergency room visits? What about prescription drug coverage? Routine doctor visits?

IT should be EXTENDED to all family members of the working class as well within a reasonable boundary;

THEREFORE, the immediate family, including the spouse and children, should be entitled to basic health care as well;

Rework this and simplify. "MANDATES health care, as defined above," [define it above] "be granted without charge" [or not - depends on one's intentions]
"for [all/full time/contracted/salaried] employees, their spouses, children, and other dependents"

OUR WORKING CLASS is contributing to the success of our society and offering their time to do so;

I disagree. They are working in order to pay the bills. That is hardly an "offer" and more along the lines of "compulsion" (though a useful compulsion - I'm against paying people to sit idly all day).

IT should be the right of the government to protect these people in times of illness;

The word "right" is incorrect here. Your proposal wants to make it the responsibility of national governments to provide health care.

BY PROTECTING these people, we are ensuring healthier times for the entire country, region, and world;

YOU ARE ACTIVELY contributing to enure the safety of all citizens;

HEALTH CARE should not be optional, rather a right to all people.

Meh. I'm not sure how I feel about these clauses, seeing as they aren't strengthening the proposal and could attract fire. I think that it's best to limit the number of clauses to the fewest needed to introduce the topic and to offer legislation on it. More than that leads to nitpicking non-actionable material, in my experience, and that is detrimental to a proposal's passage.


This is a simple draft and basic idea I would like to see myself or someone else propose in the GA. Please give all your remarks and comments on this draft.... Thanks.

Have at it. :D

EDIT: Or, you know, I could have simply seconded Altanar's thoughts without composing a twenty-minute-long post echoing the same exact things. Oh well.

Keep your filthy hands off our healthcare.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

Keep your filthy hands off our healthcare.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN


I move that we have a resolution stating that before anyone interferes with Cluichstan's health-care they wash their hands with anti-microbial soap and put on two latex gloves on each hand.

Now the UN's hands are no longer filthy when we are going to meddle in your healthcare. :D

On a personal note about this draft proposal, I like it. It needs work, but I like it. I think Krovial's suggestions should work best and look forward to seeing a second draft to pick apart.

Vladimir Khernynko.
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.

Working class? Much of our heavy manual labor and toxic cleanup is done by worker robots with pleasure chips built in so they are happy and proud. They receive regular maintenance and are treated with respect so they won't revolt.

We already have universal healthcare inside our country. We are quite happy with it. We do not think that the UN can make it better.

We are more concerned with worldwide public health, that is the spread of disease, disruptive nanites, toxic pollution, and other health care problems across borders. If this was an initiative to stop the spread of infectious disease across borders it would be looked on positively.

We would also like better regulations for the export and import of junk food, cigarettes, liquor and other luxury items which although pleasurable are a distinct problem for our country.

Working class? Much of our heavy manual labor and toxic cleanup is done by worker robots with pleasure chips built in so they are happy and proud. They receive regular maintenance and are treated with respect so they won't revolt.

We already have universal healthcare inside our country. We are quite happy with it. We do not think that the UN can make it better.

We are more concerned with worldwide public health, that is the spread of disease, disruptive nanites, toxic pollution, and other health care problems across borders. If this was an initiative to stop the spread of infectious disease across borders it would be looked on positively.

I'm trying to convey in the second part of the proposal how, by supporting this, we would be stopping the spread of disease and promoting "worldwide public health." I understand the viewpoint that you are coming from, but things are not as well off in other countries of the world. My point is to allow the worse-off countries and even some of the better ones to be able to enjoy a high standard of health care for all citizens. Do you get my point? While some may be okay, if everyone isn't, then disease is still an issue.

We already have universal healthcare inside our country. We are quite happy with it. We do not think that the UN can make it better.

We are more concerned with worldwide public health, that is the spread of disease, disruptive nanites, toxic pollution, and other health care problems across borders. If this was an initiative to stop the spread of infectious disease across borders it would be looked on positively.

While not in agreement with the representative of Commonalitarianism on all points, I would indeed be willing to support an international initiative such as they are recommending here. That would be an area in which UN involvement would be highly appropriate and useful.

Hellar Gray

Area Affected: Human rights
Strength: Significant

The United Nations,

LABOR within a society allows for productivity, wealth generation, and comfort for all citizens;

TO ALLOW the common populace to have access to healthcare, creating a more productive and more positive market and workplace;

THEREFORE, all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all working-class, unemplyed, and citizens falling below the middle class line, as determined by the society;

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs, including emergency room visits, prescription drug covereage, and regular doctars visits;

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge for all employees and others defined above, their spouses, children, and other dependents.





Here is my second draft, guys. I need some help really putting it all together, especially after trying to include all of your edits. Thanks for your time with the first draft ((especially Accelerus, Krioval, Ellelt, and Altanar))! Take care, guys and thanks again.

No need to start a new thread for each draft revision. Merged.

NationStates Forum Moderator
HotRodia

On a personal note about this draft proposal, I like it. It needs work, but I like it. I think Krovial's suggestions should work best and look forward to seeing a second draft to pick apart.Ditto.We see no proof that any one class of society does this more than any other class. In fact, in Altanar at least, all segments of society share that responsibility equally. We'd recommend deleting this clause.Agreed. If health care is a human right, then it's a universal human right.

One suggestion: keep away from dictating methods. Some will want government to provide medical care; others will want private enterprise to do it. It's better to simply say that nations must provide it, and let them decide how to do it. Don't micromanage; just mandate standards.THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge for all employees, their spouses, children, and other dependents.See, this is what we're talking about: Why employees and not everybody (e.g., the unemployed, the self-employed, retirees, etc.)?


Why the “employer pays” model? What has employment got to do with health care? Why not have the government provide it? It's is a basic human right, then that's how it should work, because maintaining basic human rights is one of the legitimate functions of government.


Alternately, why not ask people to pay for their own, with government providing a subsidy (in market economies) for persons who can't afford their own, of furnishing it outright for everybody (in socialist economies)?No, your best approach is to simply mandate that government “must ensure” that basic health care as defined by the resolution is available for all, and stop right there.

This is like due process: tell us what we must do, but not how to do it; then each of us can do it as best we see fit.

Please revisit the Rules sticky and select a Category (plus Strength or Area of effect). If you don't write TO the category, your proposal will probably not survive mod review.

Game mechanics is every bit as important as the text of the proposal. PLEASE start there first EVERY time.

Area Affected: Social Justice
Strength: Significant

The United Nations,

LABOR within a society allows for productivity, wealth generation, and comfort for all citizens;

IT IS ALSO necessary to understand the circumstances within the different peoples of a population;

FAMILY and other personal issues might be preventing all citizens from being able to work, yet they still deserve the benefits of health care;

TO ALLOW the common populace to have access to healthcare, creating a more productive and more positive market and workplace, increased productivity, limit disease, and ensure the ability for all citizens to gain the ability to receive medical attention;

THEREFORE, all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all working-class, unemployed, and citizens falling below the middle class line, as determined by the society;

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs, including emergency room visits, prescription drug covereage, and regular doctars visits;

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge for all employees and others defined above, their spouses, children, and other dependents.

Area Affected: Human rights
Strength: Significant
No.

Go back and carefully read the DESCRIPTION lines. You might be looking at Social Justice. "I wanna have it, and I don't wanna pay for it" is NOT Human Rights.

Area Affected: Social Justice
Strength: Significant

The United Nations,

LABOR within a society allows for productivity, wealth generation, and comfort for all citizens;

TO ALLOW the common populace to have access to healthcare, creating a more productive and more positive market and workplace;

THEREFORE, all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all working-class, unemplyed, and citizens falling below the middle class line, as determined by the society;

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs, including emergency room visits, prescription drug covereage, and regular doctars visits;

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge for all employees and others defined above, their spouses, children, and other dependents.

Aren't the emboldened terms contradictory? You are arguing that because people work and generate money, they should have healthcare to improve productivity, but you want it for unemployed people as well? Who don't contribute to society at all in terms of work.
This proposal seems a little brief, too.

Here's what went off to the UN:

Guarantee of Health Care
A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.


Category: Social Justice
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Etres Vrais

Description: Co-Authored by: The Theocracy of Euphobes

The United Nations,

NOTING that disease, illness and injuries are common amongst the poor of today's world,

RECOGNIZING THAT these conditions result in absenteeism from work,

ASSERTING THAT labor within a society allows for productivity, wealth generation, and comfort for all citizens,

BELIEVING loss of labor through illness or injury is a large drain on member nation's economies,

FURTHER CONCERNED about the cost of training and educating replacement workers for skilled occupations,

INFORMING NATIONS that health care is beneficial economically as well as being morally right,

AFFIRMS the common populace shall have access to healthcare, creating a more productive and more positive market and workplace, increased productivity, limit disease, and ensure the ability for all citizens to gain the ability to receive medical attention;

THEREFORE, all UN member nations should be required to guarantee health care and benefits to all citizens in work or retired, who have an income that is less than the average wage in the nation;

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs, including emergency room visits, prescription drug coverage, and regular doctors visits;

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge for all employees and others defined above, their spouses, children, and other dependents.

Ambassador Euphobes backs the proposal (not just because he co-authored it) and invites any comments; on behalf of Etres Vrais, who is currently busy.

You're in violation of the Branding rules, you can't include a nation's pretitle.

I didn't write that branding bit. All I asked was to be mentioned somewhere in it. Is that why it got deleted?

Is that why it got deleted?
Yes it is.

There are very good reasons why we suggest that the ACTUAL final draft be posted here for review for a day or three before being submitted. Learn from this example.

I just posted it here, it was Etres Vrais who actually submitted it.

I am starting to think that my previous point was totally ignored.

ALL CITIZENS SHOULD BE GUARANTEED HEALTH CARE, regardless of their social class.

As to the actual care provided that should be left up to the nations. Some nations might want to cover cosmetic surgery...Ellelt wouldn't unless it was like skin grafting to reduce visible scaring from say a burn or something like that...but that should be left up-to the nations.

THE CARE should include dental, immunizations, and basic medical needs, including emergency room visits, prescription drug coverage, and regular doctors visits;

I would change this to:

THE CARE shall include but not be limited to, dental, immunizations, basic medical needs ,including emergency room visits, prescription drugs and regular doctor visits;

This would allow nations that wish to be even more comprehensive in their health care coverage to be so.

Next issue:

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge for all employees and others defined above, their spouses, children, and other dependents.

should be changed to:

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge to all citizens of member nations of the UN.

That would make it available to all citizens without cost and is the most fair way.

We would like to see a fourth draft.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.

THUS MANDATES health care, as defined above, be granted without charge to all citizens of member nations of the UN.


"We have to disagree with that. While we certianlly are infavor of granting affordable if not free health care to all the working-class and poor citizens of a country, we belive simply the weathly should have the means and the ability to pay for their health care. And thus should pay for it. Money for health care in Aqua Anu all goes to funding for Hospitals, equipment, doctors, these things all cost money, that taxes can't pay for alone."

"We have to disagree with that. While we certianlly are infavor of granting affordable if not free health care to all the working-class and poor citizens of a country, we belive simply the weathly should have the means and the ability to pay for their health care. And thus should pay for it. Money for health care in Aqua Anu all goes to funding for Hospitals, equipment, doctors, these things all cost money, that taxes can't pay for alone."


With all due respect, Ellelt is a relatively backward and poor country but we manage to do this. That is why the Included but not limited to clause would be able to take care of this.

Basic health care would be covered by the nation but things like liposuction or nose-jobs could be covered by a private insurance program or out of the pocket of individual seeking that procedure, unless of course that cosmetic surgery could be classified as reconstructive...for example a citizen was severely burned in the face during a house fire and receives cosmetic surgery so they look as normal as possible.

That argument is rather moot I believe as it is taken care of by the include but not limited too clauses. This resolution would only mandate that the government pay for

THE CARE shall include but not be limited to, dental, immunizations, basic medical needs ,including emergency room visits, prescription drugs and regular doctor visits;

Those things that the resolution directly mandates are considered basic health care, and are a human right for all people.

Further I would like to point out that many countries in the mythical place called RW use a single payer system very effectively. However we can include language as to allowing nations to determine how they are going to pay for it...like taxes, or private/employer health insurance, etc...although Ellelt will continue to use the Single Payer system.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.

ALL CITIZENS SHOULD BE GUARANTEED HEALTH CAREBullshit.


Doctor Denis Leary
stuff

ALL CITIZENS SHOULD BE GUARANTEED HEALTH CARE,
Fine, do that in your nation but don't force the rest of us to do if we don't want to.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Dr. Leary and Ambassador Fibble:

Should this proposal come to the floor you will have your chance to vote against it. And if you don't want to provide health care to all your citizens then do vote against it. However, I think there are a lot of people who will vote for the corrections that I have suggested.

It leaves less basic health care options open to private enterprise and is not so overtly sovereignty unfriendly with the insertion (possibly) of allowing various forms of paying for the said basic health care, at the individual nation's discression.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.

Basic health care, in our estimation, is something that all people should have access to, regardless of income or status. We would recommend very narrowly drawing that line, however, to make a draft like this more palatable to the GA. We provide basic health care to our citizens who cannot afford it, but that is limited to "care that is medically necessary for a patient to survive", as determined by a doctor. We limit this to lower the burden on our taxpayers as much as possible, while making sure our citizens all have a shot at living. Anything beyond that is probably overreaching in any draft.

Should this proposal come to the floor you will have your chance to vote against it. And if you don't want to provide health care to all your citizens then do vote against it. However, I think there are a lot of people who will vote for the corrections that I have suggested.As a non-member, I honestly don't care what you idiots do to yourselves in the name of the greater good, or whatever the hell you consider it. I am amused that, once again, the communists are trying to squash any disagreement. You're allowed to bang on about how a giving service is somehow a magical right that every person should have, but when two voices rise in disagreement, we're told to shut up until you ram it down the UN's throat.

Suppose I shouldn't expect anything else.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Tindalos/UN/doctor.jpg
Doctor Denis Leary
Ambassador to the UN
The Federated Technocratic Oligarchy of the Most Glorious Hack

The final draft (assuming it is being resubmitted without the branding violation) is much better than the previous ones. Ariddia will vote in favour - if only to annoy those perverse enough to believe that health care is not a basic human right.


Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Bullshit.


Doctor Denis Leary
stuff

We second that emotion.

Respectfully,
Sheik Nadnerb bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

Ambassador Fibble:

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.

Two things, first off I'm NOT an ambassador, I'm a representative. I might add that I hate being called an ambassador as much as my brother (who happens to be the Grand Poobah of The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites) hates being called a politician. Secondly, one of the few things I hate more that being called an ambassador is when people misprounce my name. It's Robert Elim Flibble, get it right next time.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Noted Representative Flibble.

Anyway, I fail to see how anyone can not see basic health care as a right, not to mention the economic benefits to the nations which will adopt this proposal.

Illness is a leading cause of missing work, and lost production, as such basic health care will go a long way toward reducing illness generally. Providing Emergency room visits should be self-explanitory...it is an emergency, thats why you would go there.

Providing Immunization should be relatively easy to understand as well. People get immunized against communicable disease, some of which can be fatal. Surely the representatives opposed to this measure can see the value in not having small pox, or some other plague running rampant in the missile factories (I now we can).

Dental and Regular Doctor visits were added to follow up on the first two. I would like to see vision care added but I do think that that may draw too much opposition to pass the proposal, however, Ellelt will strongly encourage member states to include that in their state paid for, or privately run-state regulated health care system.

Vladimir Khernynko
Elleltian Ambassador to the UN.