NationStates Jolt Archive

Equal Wages Act
A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.


Category: Social Justice
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Of Poland

Description: All members will hereby allow for all citizens of its nation to make the same wages. This will allow for the basic overcoming of a curtain group (the rich) to control a nation and it's laws. This will allow all citizens of every nation to have the same voice and the same spending power of the next.

The Equal Wages Act will lead to the creation of the <<UNEWC>> the United Nations Equal Wage Commission>> the commissions duties shall be to protect equal wages and make sure all nations give their citizens a livable wage and make sure wages of each nation keep up with inflation.

The United Nations will in conclusion:
1. Create the UNEWC
2. Make citizen (of a nation) earn the same wages.

I would like to state why I've put the Equal Wages Act in as a proposal to the UN. I put it in to bring all citizens of every nation into a more economically equality state. If this is put through a victory for equality will happen allowing for no second class citizens. It would allow all sexes, races, all creeds to make the same amount and have the same spending power. It wouldn't allow for just a certain group of people to have pull in the laws and power of the land but all would have the same pull in their and others lands once and for all. Because remember money talks to those in power.

But should a person who screws the caps onto tubes of toothpaste really be paid the same amount as a person who is developing cancer treatments?

Mild?!

I think not. A complete restructuring of the payscales of 30,000+ nations is hardly "mild". I'd delete it, but it's unlikely in the best of drafts; no way in hell like this.

Yes both should be paid the same amount. Both are doing there jobs of helping others. A question that I ask you is why should a person be allowed to profit off another's misfortunes. Why should a person who makes a cancer treatment be allowed to make money, why should a person who screws fillings on not be allowed to make money for helping someone with their misfortune. Why should a person be paid differently than someone else when both do their jobs. Why shouldn't everone be allowed to make money, when they are working or looking for a job. I don't beleive that someone should profit off a product to help others or anything elses. For example: lets call this person Joe should make a billion dollars a month when all's he did is make a computer company, when lets call this person Mary works all day cleaning up others garbage to feed her family and children makes a few hundred dollars a month. I'm only doing this to even up spending power and political influence. I bet by now you are going to ask me that others won't invent anything, well that's why I need to propose a Department of Technology and Information. This would allow for inventors and scientist to work together for inventing products to help all peoples of the nation and the world. I also bet you are asking yourself or want to ask me then noone else will won't to work hard, that's why quota's for thejob their doing need to be proposed and if they don't complete these quota's then several things could happen such as so. First a warning, the Second time reducation center and allowed to continue job, three jail where will be enventually put back into society with new job, and finally if there is another warning I beleive all's that can be done is to get rid of the situation with neutralizing the problem.

Giving everyone a living wage is a noble goal. Giving everyone the same wage is completely unworkable.

By doing so, you would take away a major reason people would have to advance themselves or strive to achieve anything in their chosen professions. If everyone gets the same money, no matter what, why would you need to do any more than the minimum?

This proposal also doesn't take into account the widely differing economies and pay scales of the world's many nations. It also provides no means whatsoever to pay for its mandate. Is that burden just going to be shifted to the governments and businesses of each nation? If so, widespread collapse is inevitable and predictable. I'm not worried about that happening, though, because I'm more likely to see snow in the desert back home than I am this proposal getting anywhere.

You have the right idea, but you need to come up with a better way to go about it. This one simply won't work.

You have NO idea how hard I laughed when I saw this in the proposal list earlier. Not only does it NOT have a chance in blue hell of passing, but it's also embarrassingly written. And, did it ever occur to you what's involved in different jobs? A hamburger flipper needs a few days of orientation, and that's about it. You know what it takes to become a doctor? A full college degree, 4 years medical school, and 2 years residency. This ends up costing about hundreds of thousands. My father is such a doctor. He could not have made it on the same salary as the hamburger flipper. If he'd been paid that, I would be unable to go to college. Hell, my father couldn't have AFFORDED to have me or my sisters, as he'd be paying literally every penny into his school loans, and he'd still die of old age in debt. Not that he'd have become a doctor if they didn't get paid squat.

THERE'S A REASON WE DON'T DO THIS IN THE REAL WORLD. IT DOESN'T WORK. Not all jobs are equitable. So, not all pay is equitable.

EDIT: I agree with Altanar. Enough to live off of, yes. But you can't "one-size-fits-all" this. You... just... can't.
FURTHER EDIT: I apologize that none of this is in-character, but I can't RP something quite this unrealistic. It's just too silly.

Wolfgang's author stands up, clocks out of his lazy, not a lot of skill job that he gets an EQUITABLE 7.50 an hour for, and walks away.

-Your capitalistic pig-dog,
The Author of Wolfgang

We're sorry, but we could in no way support such a proposal. It flies in the face of every conceivable theory of workplace motivation. Wages are incentives to work. The potential for earning higher wages is a significant factor in motivating workers to obtain skills and increase and enhance their skills.

The intent of the proposal is laudable; its provisions are completely unrealistic.

Hurlbot Barfanger
Ambassador to the United Nations

I also bet you are asking yourself or want to ask me then noone else will won't to work hard, that's why quota's for thejob their doing need to be proposed and if they don't complete these quota's then several things could happen such as so. First a warning, the Second time reducation center and allowed to continue job, three jail where will be enventually put back into society with new job, and finally if there is another warning I beleive all's that can be done is to get rid of the situation with neutralizing the problem.

Let me get this straight. You are seriously proposing "re-education centers", jail and even "neutralizing" people (I assume you mean kill them, but just can't get the word out). You're seriously proposing all of this....to help people?

Remember the phrase "the cure is worse than the disease". And rethink, before you embarrass yourself further.

If the cure is worse than the disease than why do people ask for help.

UN Ambassodor, Neosocialist Region, Socialist States of Poland

I don't even have to show this to my boss to know what his reply will be. It'll be along the lines of no fucking way.

Timothy Schmidt
Bob Flibble's PA

I applaud the ideal behind this proposal, but remind the delegate of Of Poland to keep the difference between the real and ideal in mind. I can think of few people who would spend a dozen years in higher education to learn advanced sciences and mathematics only to get in return an amount equal to that of the cashier at a video rental store (noble though that profession may be).

There is a great amount of income equality in Norderia, but "To each his ability" is held to. We cannot in good conscience support a proposal such as this.

Your heart's in the right place, but even I can't support this. We may have done away with money in Ariddia, and implemented a communist economy, but not all member States of the UN are ready for such radical changes. It's unrealistic, and would do a lot more harm than good.

Christelle Zyryanov,
Ambassador to the United Nations,
PDSRA

Dude, what have you been smoking? Looks like it's a lot better than my shite. Can you hook me up?

Love, luck and lollipops,
Sheik Larebil bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

The same wages.
Regardless of the extent of any training required, effort required, hours to be worked (and how they're distributed), talent, effort made (and hours actually worked), danger, levels of responsibility, or other factors involved...
What an incredibly stupid idea.

As a capitalist pig-dog nation we’re obviously firmly against any such notion. If there is equality of opportunity then the ultimate result of a person’s life is their own doing, laziness is punished by poverty while conscientiousness is rewarded with security.

This resolution is nothing but resentment of the rich by the poor, or considering the wording of the document you might prefer “proletariat” and “bourgeoisie” as appears in certain nations' philosophical texts.

It is even more comical that you would punish laziness with *death*, at least us immoral capitalists give people the opportunity to redeem themselves should they so choose.

Moreover, the entire precedent of communism is the idea that humanity doesn’t need self-interested motivation to produce goods (which is completely absurd to us due to evolutionary science) but yet you’d instigate “quotas” as a form of *motivation* so why don’t you just leave the present form of motivation in place? Surely a tick on your quota is only the same receiving a dollar in your pocket with respect to your security and the worth society attributes to you?

*sigh* we apologise but we’ve reacted emotively so this is erratic (nowhere near as erratic as the resolution we’re sure) but while we’d normally encourage any aim to increase equality before the law (which this sentiment would ultimately do) we fear that it would give you motivation to draft more of the same.

UN Representative for Ithania,
A nation whose system will never be “ready” for any such idea,
Anravelle A. Harroway.

Anravelle, it seems we agree for a change. Wanna get high?

Love, luck and lollipops,
Sheik Larebil bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

I propose that someone create an organization for the protection of us capitalistic pig-dogs. And, that phrase needs to be part of the name. UNCPD or something. I would join in a heartbeat.

I would join in a heartbeat.

You forgot... we're capitalists, we don't have hearts. :rolleyes:

Anravelle, it seems we agree for a change. Wanna get high?

I'm acrophobic so I'll pass. ;)

I have a heart! Nevermind the fact that it's a platinum, mechanical replacement that I got JUST BECAUSE I COULD AFFORD IT! (lol)

In ze old country, resolution writes you!

Ahem. I mean, we already have a policy in SJB that mandates that people with poor grammar be paid less than those who know how to proofread. It's from our religion or something. Therefore, we find ourselves against this proposal on purely ideological grounds, which you'll look like an asshole for challenging.

Hell no! The Queendom is not willing to pay some guy flipping burgers the same wages as a Neurosurgeon. That's ridiculous!


Dahlia Black
UN Representative
Queendom of Karmicaria

On behalf of the Ruling Council of Guangdongstan via the UN representative from Guangdongstan:

I think the concept has very little merit whether you are based on a Liberal Democratic - Market based capitalist state, a socialist state, a theocracy, or whatever. There are 3 issues here that need to be considered:

EVEN IF we accept the ideas of equality of wages would make for a better society, the reality of such a utopian concept would be that for equal wages, there would be an equality of usefulness and value. Because if you do have an average labourer getting paid the same as a neurosurgeon, yet it takes the neurosurgeon 10 years to get to his position compared to maybe 1 month for the labourer, the average reasonable person would ask why on earth are they commiting themselves to 10 years of work to become a neurosurgeon only to be paid exactly the same as the labourer. You would have to somehow allow for this educational inequality to be matched (something like having 10 years training to become a labourer, fully funded government education for for the neurosurgeon), basically some way of providing parity as you wish to achieve that would give equal pay for equal effort.

Also, it discourages people to aim higher. Such equal pay provides no incentive for people to become neurosurgeons or anything because the net value is the same as a labourer. Much as we would like to assume that people are altruistic, it’s not reality. People look to self improve because they have material, personal or idealistic goals. Having equal pay removes two of these (the definitely the material goal and the personal goal to a great extent), and in fact, would encourage people to be lazy and unproductive.

Lastly, it is political suicide and politically unsound in such a forum. It lacks political support because even socialists acknowledge the benefit and value in merit-based reward and responsibility. It’s when these rewards become disproportionate with the value of the work that the dissent against this becomes apparent. Further to this, something like this wouldn’t receive support in the NSUN because it would disadvantage smaller states from allowing their competitive advantage to have effect.

What I believe would be a better proposal would be not an Equal Pay Resolution, but the creation of an Industrial Relations Commission, an arbiter that helps establish equity based on merit and could establish a scale according to that merit and value. Far from establishing a broad-based set minimum wage or whatnot, it would be more of a body that would help establish a fair pay scale based on the socio-economic status of individual UN member states. (Even then, such a proposal would have a lot of work to do!).

Thus, we believe that the intent is good, the execution is extremely flawed and we advise and request that this proposed resolution be not tabled at all.

Iskandar
Chair of the Ruling Council (Rotating)
Guangdongstan

What's to stop the government from eliminating wages (thereby making them equal) via a 100% income tax and then "redistributing wealth" in the same amounts back to the same people? With a bit of direct deposit finesse, any nation could get around this resolution with ease.

St Jello Biafra;11823804']What's to stop the government from eliminating wages (thereby making them equal) via a 100% income tax and then "redistributing wealth" in the same amounts back to the same people? With a bit of direct deposit finesse, any nation could get around this resolution with ease.

Good idea, although I shudder to think how much money that would cost in administration.

Kingsley Thomas
Ambassador to the United Nations

Good idea, although I shudder to think how much money that would cost in administration.

Mayhaps. Honestly, it could be done cheaply (and within minutes) simply by automatically wiring the wages to a Redistribution Fund and having them automatically wired immediately into the worker's bank account.

Same Job- Equal Wage
A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.


Category: Social Justice
Strength: Strong
Proposed by: Of Poland

Description: In most nations it is apparent of differences of wages for the same job being done by different people. If you flip burgers for a living then you should make just as much as the other person who flips burgers just like you. If you do the same job you should make the same wage no matter of you sex, race, or creed, these should no longer be barriers to your income.

The equality of wages on your job will lead to significant change in many countries. This will allow for equal rights in many places it doesn't exist today.

I hereby also propose the creation of the Department of Equal Wages (EW). This department will be created in every country on the goal of creating and securing equal wages for the same job done by that group of people.

For example if you flip burgers you will be paid the same as the person who also flips burgers. And if you are a surgeon, than you will be paid as every other surgeon.

The passing of this resolution will lead to the creation of:
1. Department of Equal Wages
2. Equality amongst those of different sex, race, and creed.

The UN representative from Guangdongstan states:

While yes that is possible (the 100% tax thing), I'd shudder to think whether or not you could actually get something like that passed as a UN resolution.

Wi Aul Go
UN Representative
Incorporated States of Guangdongstan

I would like all to know that this resoultion has not got the quorum and no longer exist. I have instead wrote a new resoultion the Same-Job Equal Wages Act of the UN Fourm at Same-Job Same Wage fourm. So if you would like please take a look. Thank You.

What, you didn't like the negative replies in the original topic so you thought you'd repost this?

The UN representative from Guangdongstan states:

While yes that is possible (the 100% tax thing), I'd shudder to think whether or not you could actually get something like that passed as a UN resolution.

Wi Aul Go
UN Representative
Incorporated States of Guangdongstan
As there is no way to specify tax rates in UN resolutions that would never be passed as a resolution (it's a game mechanics thing)

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

My apologies to Of Poland; I originally thought that you'd just reposted the same proposal here. However, Kenny's right; you should use the same topic for new drafts.

That being said, our response to this is again a resounding "nay."

BLOODY FRAKKING HELL! So this is the sort of thing my PA was trying to keep me from seeing. Hell no, wages are an intranational issue, and should not be set by the UN.

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

No, the replies in the first one made me think. So instead of giving all people the same wage, why not people who do the same job. I know that you probably disagree with this but I think that it's the step in the right direction. These are the proposals I will keep presenting proposals I beleive are right. All I want to do is make at least wage equal for the same job. I don't beleive that someone should make $8.00 an hour for being a security guard and someone else who is a security guard make $5.75 an hour just for being a different sex, race, or creed.

Oh really? How about a person getting paid more because of more dangerous conditions, or increased costs of living in a specific area, or maybe even better performance?

I believe that resolutions already exist prohibiting discrimination on the grounds you mentioned. Pay discrepancy on those grounds listed above, however, is completely acceptable. I seriously doubt you'll be able to convince a majority of this body otherwise.

This proposal is better than the last one, but it still won't fly, because it still doesn't address the issue of differing economic and wage scales in different nations, or how to make up for that fact. It also doesn't address concerns that even within the same job, there may be different factors that make a different wage legitimate (different skills, hours, etc.)

I'd suggest a living wage proposal instead, where a minimum wage commensurate with a nation's standard or cost of living could be codified. Even that might be problematic, as you run into the problem of figuring out what a living wage is in each country, and providing a means to meet that wage. Even a living wage proposal might have a hard time getting through, but it would stand a better shot than either of the previous ones.

"It also does not seem to make any reference as to skill involved. There are better burger-flippers and worse burger-flippers, and better neurosurgeons and worse neurosurgeons (though I'd certainly hope most of those are very good). It is, once again, not proper motivation to improve onself if one knows that they will make the same amount of money anyway. I suppose you could 'promote" good ones to a higher job, but, honestly, how many different posts could Burger President in the Commonwealth have? And yet, it'd be nice to be able to reward an employee who's been there for two years and is very good at their job by paying them more than the drifter who just needs a job for a month. Both should make enough to survive, but not necessarily the same. I'd very much suggest trying a different tactic, like ensuring everyone has enough to live on, because this simply will not fly, given the general mindset of this Assembly."

(OOC: Apparently, this is an improvement, as I felt driven to respond IC, whereas I was unable to in the last one. Nice try. And, the anti-discrimination based on their race, age, other demographics that really shouldn't matter, is a nice touch. Well done.)

After this proposal has expired for voting I'll take your suggestins of a living wages standard. It would be better to get at least something through than nothing.

Nothing is going to reach quorum without a TG campaign.

It's good that you've come to the forum to discuss your proposal. Before you submit it, get ideas, look over recent Resolutions for an idea about style, and content, and draft the proposal in the forum here, using help from the regulars. Some of us can be short and grumpy, but if you show promise in drafting, we'll help you get a submittable piece of legislation going.

The UN has already enshrined unions as a method of punishing people for having talent. Why is this needed as well?

Some of us can be short and grumpy

Oxymoron.
http://blog.urbanomic.com/sphaleotas/archives/grumpy.jpg


(threads merged)

In Whistleton, we have a small market segment where employess working the same job are payed the same wage regardless of any potentially biased skill assessment.

We call those "government employees".

After my last visit to the Department of Vehicle Licenscing, I would not wish to see that model extended out to all of the private sector. [shudder]

Hey, Of Poland representative dude, take a look at your poll, man. You're the only one who thinks this is a good idea. Just drop it already.

Love, luck and lollipops,
Sheik Larebil bin Cluich
Cluichstani Ambassador to the UN

Oxymoron.
http://blog.urbanomic.com/sphaleotas/archives/grumpy.jpg


(threads merged)

I meant short as in brief and caustic, stupid!



Yeah, like that!

As there is no way to specify tax rates in UN resolutions that would never be passed as a resolution (it's a game mechanics thing)

Bob Flibble
UN Representative

Yah go figure that! I already figured that out from reading other posts. Thanks!

--

Even this revised resolution that our esteemed colleague from Of Poland doesn't seem to have any logic in consideration of what Altanar and The Wolf Guardians has mentioned about having equal pay for the same job. No offense, but the idea was flawed, even from a socialist perspective, and even the variation is flawed from a socialist perspective (never mind a free-market liberal!)

Even the extension that Of Poland suggests of a real living wage is something that is indeterminate at a multi-state level. The average minimum standard living wage per capita varies so differently from state to state that applying a standardised UN setting would be impossible. Again, such proposals would have a lot of hard work to get endorsement and then support from the UN community.

While again, it's idealistic, there are realities that does not get addressed in such a proposal, and I think you need to consider what one wants to do and get done, whether or not it is feasible in this situation, and if not, what is a less controversial position that would garner more support?

While again, it's idealistic, there are realities that does not get addressed in such a proposal, and I think you need to consider what one wants to do and get done, whether or not it is feasible in this situation, and if not, what is a less controversial position that would garner more support?The closest you can possibly hope to get is minimum/maximum wage laws. And even those would be monsterously difficult given the limitations of UN Proposals.

To say nothing of the active counter-campaigns you'd have to overcome.